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Cordran Li
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:41:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jaehawn so why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Cause it's totally normal.
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Agrikaan
Amarr Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:43:00 -
[32]
Quote: Do you just not get it? Here's some suggested readings for you. Google some of these keywords:
corporation shareholder stakeholder fiduciary duties of corporation's management
and perhaps in your case....
the agreements we are suppose to accept when we log into the game.
You didn't answer my question. Nor did you ever argue what was wrong with my initial argument. That's just bad form, and not very clever. So your arrogance and superiority complex makes you points invalid. Especially since you've provided no points at all.
Oh, and I've run and managed a successful small corporation for the past 22 years, need no further reading really.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
No, you use the investor's money to pay for the first project. If that project makes money, you go back to the investors and ask them if you can use their profits to pay for a second project.
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The Antiquarian
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:46:00 -
[34]
Edited by: The Antiquarian on 01/07/2011 15:47:32
Originally by: Agrikaan
Quote: Do you just not get it? Here's some suggested readings for you. Google some of these keywords:
corporation shareholder stakeholder fiduciary duties of corporation's management
and perhaps in your case....
the agreements we are suppose to accept when we log into the game.
You didn't answer my question. Nor did you ever argue what was wrong with my initial argument. That's just bad form, and not very clever. So your arrogance and superiority complex makes you points invalid. Especially since you've provided no points at all.
Oh, and I've run and managed a successful small corporation for the past 22 years, need no further reading really.
I heavily doubt that. Seeing what you wrote, your understanding of how a corporation functions is close to nothing. Why argue when you won't understand?
P.S. Just because you managed a small convenient store in the middle of Alabama for 22 years doesn't equate to running a "successful" corporation.
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Cordran Li
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
No, you use the investor's money to pay for the first project. If that project makes money, you go back to the investors and ask them if you can use their profits to pay for a second project.
Investment: the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
We're customers, not investors. There's a big difference. CCP doesn't need customers' permission to use their money.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:52:00 -
[36]
Both of you are taking a one-way street. Loans are absolute requirement for corporate world and fiat money system to work and new projects needs to get their capital somewhere.
However, companies can fund new projects with their own income as well if things are peachy. Problem for players is that CCP has directed so much of their income towards new projects that are not necessarily that interesting to EVE players and left their game to lanquish. That is the impression of it anyway.
This whole CSM emergency thing would not need to exist if EVE was expanding with good speed and people were feeling they are getting their moneys worth in return.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:52:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Agrikaan
Quote: Do you just not get it? Here's some suggested readings for you. Google some of these keywords:
corporation shareholder stakeholder fiduciary duties of corporation's management
and perhaps in your case....
the agreements we are suppose to accept when we log into the game.
You didn't answer my question. Nor did you ever argue what was wrong with my initial argument. That's just bad form, and not very clever. So your arrogance and superiority complex makes you points invalid. Especially since you've provided no points at all.
Oh, and I've run and managed a successful small corporation for the past 22 years, need no further reading really.
Since you have no concept of how funding is acquired for ongoing and future projects in the gaming industry (or greater corporate world for that matter), I would say that your laundromat hasn't prepared you well for this discussion.
Quote: No, not a shareholder. A customer. That means, in the end, more important than any shareholder. At least if the shareholder wants to earn any money / get money back on the investment.
Customer feedback is always valued. However feedback does not equate to dictating corporate policy. No COO is going to blindly follow the financial advice offered by a customer with little or no practical knowledge of the industry he is offering his sage advice on. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Sub Prime
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cordran Li
Originally by: Jaehawn so why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Cause it's totally normal.
You absolute muppet. Considering EVE is the sole income for CCP at the moment, it's not good business practise to a) make changes that are potentially volatile to the community and b) ignore bugs / much needed changes. i.e. you never risk your cash cow/bread and butter, borrow against it, sure, but never risk it.
By all means spend money in developing new titles but you don't screw up your 'golden goose' doing it. EVE doesn't have any direct competitors currently or in the imminent future so IMO it's rather foolish to gamble on massive investment in 2 new ventures.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Cordran Li
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
No, you use the investor's money to pay for the first project. If that project makes money, you go back to the investors and ask them if you can use their profits to pay for a second project.
Investment: the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.
We're customers, not investors. There's a big difference. CCP doesn't need customers' permission to use their money.
Yeah, that's why I said investors, not customers. If I had meant customers, I would have said it.
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The Antiquarian
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Sub Prime
Originally by: Cordran Li
Originally by: Jaehawn so why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Cause it's totally normal.
You absolute muppet. Considering EVE is the sole income for CCP at the moment, it's not good business practise to a) make changes that are potentially volatile to the community and b) ignore bugs / much needed changes. i.e. you never risk your cash cow/bread and butter, borrow against it, sure, but never risk it.
By all means spend money in developing new titles but you don't screw up your 'golden goose' doing it. EVE doesn't have any direct competitors currently or in the imminent future so IMO it's rather foolish to gamble on massive investment in 2 new ventures.
Your point is valid. It's just that the OP failed in every ways to communicate effectively, mumbling about his ill understanding of how firms operate, that triggered some of us to fix that error. What you stated is posted on dozens of threads with proper heading and proper posting. This one just fails. We don't need another emotional outrage of a poster who mumbles bull****.
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Sub Prime
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Posted - 2011.07.01 15:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: The Antiquarian This one just fails. We don't need another emotional outrage of a poster who mumbles nonsensical bull****.
Agreed!
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CowQueen MMXII
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:00:00 -
[42]
Originally by: The Antiquarian We don't need another emotional outrage of a poster who mumbles nonsensical bull****.
Don't blame the bulls, not their fault at all.
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Vain Eldritch
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:03:00 -
[43]
As soon as the money goes from your CC to CCP it's their money, honey. You gave it to them to play Eve Online. What they do with it is, frankly, their business (literally).
They could improve Eve (and yes - shock - I like Incarna). They could also use the money to fund other games to make more money so that their games - like Eve - can continue for years to come. Why, they could even purchase a decommissioned Russian nuclear submarine to water-ski behind for all I care.
I'd like bug fixes too.
______________________________
Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas.
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Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:05:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
No, you use the investor's money to pay for the first project. If that project makes money, you go back to the investors and ask them if you can use their profits to pay for a second project.
Did you read their accounts? That's exactly what they did. Profits for 2010 were retained - no dividends were paid. And don't forget they also raised new equity to fund the development cost of the new games.
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jackaloped
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Abominare The stupid here is unbearable.
Ill let you in on a secret any money you've ever spent on a video game was used to make the next one!
YouÆre not helping the stupid quotient.
You claim that all the money everyone spent from day one on eve was used to make some game other than eve. Is that your secret?
I guess no company could ever start their first game then right? Of course they can. There are many ways you can start a new game and get funding for what you need other than squeezing the players of your first successful game.
Its not like ccp needs to spend every dime it makes on eve for eve. But when everyone acknowledges (even ccp) many parts of the game desperately needs work yet its clear ccp will not address these issues for *years*they should not expect players to keep paying them.
Only an idiot will keep paying for a broken product if the company makes it clear that they will never fix it. So everyone who wanted improvements and fixes for so many different things in this game will eventually get the picture and start leaving the game.
IÆm not angry at ccp. ItÆs just that they decided to put their resources into something I and many other subscribers are not interested in. So I and others unsubscribe. Once they work on what I find interesting then I will re-subscribe. No hard feelings we are just trying some transparent communication techniques.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:08:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 01/07/2011 15:13:44
-Voice of reason-
But seriously, no one with any sense wants CCP to NOT expand, make money or make new games. They are a business.
But you have to expand SMARTLY, in a timely fashion. Trying to make TWO news games from the income of one that itself needs some loving (thanks for your efforts anyways Team BFF) during a worldwide recession where there are potentially fewer dollars to be spent on gaming/entertainment is at best foolish and at worst criminally stupid.
Many of us resent the foolishness because it threatens to alter our game experience that we are already paying for.
Hope that sums it up for y'all CCP loyalists :) .
-/Voice of Reason-
PS you all suck.
Thank god they have you to tell them how they should spend their money. I have no idea how they have managed to survive the last 8 years without you...
That's the same kind of hubris CCP has recently displayed. Too bad all you can add to the discussion is a troll. You have the right alliance ticker my friend....
Just because they make ONE successful game (which isn't only successful because of it's quality, but also because it has no real competition......) doesn't mean they are elite game makers. The smart thing to do would be to expand a bit more slowly, building on the reputation as the makers of EVE (and building their corporate culture to get away from the "small game shop" mentality) and THEN go for the big bucks.
They are making a grab at being a major games producer and i think they are doing so too quickly, and that potentially puts CCP and EVE in jeopardy. I hope they mature and slow down a bit rather than cave too much to investor pressure for "moar profits NOW".
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Varo Jan
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
No, you use the investor's money to pay for the first project. If that project makes money, you go back to the investors and ask them if you can use their profits to pay for a second project.
Did you read their accounts? That's exactly what they did. Profits for 2010 were retained - no dividends were paid. And don't forget they also raised new equity to fund the development cost of the new games.
I guess my first mistake was posting on GD in the first place because apparently everyone assumes that you are an idiot and if you say something sensible you couldn't possibly have meant what you said.
All I am saying is that you don't automatically start a new project, you go back to the investors, represented by the board, and ask them for their permission to use their profits to start a new project.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:21:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 01/07/2011 15:13:44
-Voice of reason-
But seriously, no one with any sense wants CCP to NOT expand, make money or make new games. They are a business.
But you have to expand SMARTLY, in a timely fashion. Trying to make TWO news games from the income of one that itself needs some loving (thanks for your efforts anyways Team BFF) during a worldwide recession where there are potentially fewer dollars to be spent on gaming/entertainment is at best foolish and at worst criminally stupid.
Many of us resent the foolishness because it threatens to alter our game experience that we are already paying for.
Hope that sums it up for y'all CCP loyalists :) .
-/Voice of Reason-
PS you all suck.
Thank god they have you to tell them how they should spend their money. I have no idea how they have managed to survive the last 8 years without you...
That's the same kind of hubris CCP has recently displayed. Too bad all you can add to the discussion is a troll. You have the right alliance ticker my friend....
Just because they make ONE successful game (which isn't only successful because of it's quality, but also because it has no real competition......) doesn't mean they are elite game makers. The smart thing to do would be to expand a bit more slowly, building on the reputation as the makers of EVE (and building their corporate culture to get away from the "small game shop" mentality) and THEN go for the big bucks.
They are making a grab at being a major games producer and i think they are doing so too quickly, and that potentially puts CCP and EVE in jeopardy. I hope they mature and slow down a bit rather than cave too much to investor pressure for "moar profits NOW".
Because 8 years of success and growth is a sign of a poor business plan?
Because 8 years is such a short period of time in the gaming industry, nobody expands unless their game is at least 10 years old right?
Making EVE itself was a huge risk. Nobody thought it could be done. If they had adopted your philosophy as their corporate philosophy, there would be no EVE.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
jackaloped
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
"in part"?? CCP has 22 devs assigned to the inspace/gameplay part of eve. There are 124 devs in eve the rest are assigned to things like links for dust and incarnatransactions. Incarna adds no gameplay to eve unless you consider typing your credit card number into the computer to buy virtual clothes game play. It is mainly a method to develop wod characters and squeeze eve players for more money.
But that 124 devs are only the "eve devs" That number does not include the main dust devs, or the WOD devs. If those games have half of the devs eve has then over 90% of the developers are working on things other than gameplay for eve!
They have practically abandoned eve. You may be happy with eve as it is and not think it needs work. But others do. I am one of them. I see that there are no plans to even assign more devs to the gameplay part of eve so I am unsubbing. ItÆs pretty easy to see that I am not the only one who broke this code.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:25:00 -
[50]
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Jaehawn why isn't anyone upset that they are taking that money to create another game?
Because it's their money and they can do what they want with it, and because that's how the software industry works: you use the old project to (in part) pay for the new project.
"in part"?? CCP has 22 devs assigned to the inspace/gameplay part of eve. There are 124 devs in eve the rest are assigned to things like links for dust and incarnatransactions. Incarna adds no gameplay to eve unless you consider typing your credit card number into the computer to buy virtual clothes game play. It is mainly a method to develop wod characters and squeeze eve players for more money.
But that 124 devs are only the "eve devs" That number does not include the main dust devs, or the WOD devs. If those games have half of the devs eve has then over 90% of the developers are working on things other than gameplay for eve!
They have practically abandoned eve. You may be happy with eve as it is and not think it needs work. But others do. I am one of them. I see that there are no plans to even assign more devs to the gameplay part of eve so I am unsubbing. ItÆs pretty easy to see that I am not the only one who broke this code.
18 months of heavy development in other area's, clearly stated about a year ago.
Pretty straight forward, no surprises there.
Apparently the "code" is called the alphabet.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
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Salpun
Gallente Paramount Commerce
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:26:00 -
[51]
It all goes to improve the Carbon framework. With every bug fix and feature add all 3 projects get stronger. I find bug hunting more fun then playing some times so bring it on.
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jackaloped
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:30:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ranger 1 Because 8 years of success and growth is a sign of a poor business plan?
....
Are you saying they never put the bulk of the profits of eve back into eve? If you admit they probably used to put the profits of eve back into the development of eve, then you must admit their business plan changed. That is because they certainly are not putting hardly any profits from eve into further development of it now.
Until they start making development of eve gameplay a priority again eve will be dead end game.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ranger 1
Because 8 years of success and growth is a sign of a poor business plan?
Because 8 years is such a short period of time in the gaming industry, nobody expands unless their game is at least 10 years old right?
Why you feel the need to put words in my mouth I don't know, nor do I care.
CCP has made one game, and imo still have the "one niche game, small game company mentaility". It would be smarter to expand more smartly rather than making a big grab. Im just a customer, not an investor, but I don't want a game I enjoy to die because of corporate over-reach (even though, EVE might survive a CCP downfall because it could be sold, but just rather that not happen).
Quote:
Making EVE itself was a huge risk. Nobody thought it could be done. If they had adopted your philosophy as their corporate philosophy, there would be no EVE.
You are simply incorrect. No one is saying "don't ever take chances". But there is smart gambling and stupid gambling.
Trying to grab to much during an economic downturn could be a big mistake. Of course I could be wrong, CCP could strike it rich(er) with WoD and my concerns would be moot. But it's not a gamble I would take, where as the orginal gamble with EVE (a niche game with little direct competition) is a gamble i would have taken.
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jackaloped
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:33:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ranger 1 18 months of heavy development in other area's, clearly stated about a year ago.
Pretty straight forward, no surprises there.
Apparently the "code" is called the alphabet.
That was in june of 2010. So are we going to see the majority of those 124 devs reassigned back to gameplay features of eve in december 2011? Or is the bulk going to remain in incarnatransactions?
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Lu'Marat
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:34:00 -
[55]
OP: Wait... "why isn't anyone upset?"...
Don't get me wrong bro but... where have you been the last two weeks? 90% of the forum rage boils down to "they are ruining my game to make monies for a game I don't care about." (short-sighted as that may be.)
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Stephanie Rose
Nos Exigo Effercio
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:36:00 -
[56]
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Ranger 1 18 months of heavy development in other area's, clearly stated about a year ago.
Pretty straight forward, no surprises there.
Apparently the "code" is called the alphabet.
That was in june of 2010. So are we going to see the majority of those 124 devs reassigned back to gameplay features of eve in december 2011? Or is the bulk going to remain in incarnatransactions?
OMG NO! They can't go back to working on, an fixing EvE, who is going to design my avatars dress that I will have to use 6 PLEXes to buy?
My can of sarcasm ran out, I have to go to the store an buy more.
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Captain Futur3
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:37:00 -
[57]
I totally agree with the OP and I think a lot of comments made in this thread are wrong or shortsighted.
Yes, its normal and ok when one game funds the next game if the sucess is big enough. But the normal case is that a company of the size of CCP will only develop ONE more game after Eve and not 2 at the same time. Its simply that CCP needs a course in economics and game developement, else we wouldnt be in this situation. They tried to create three games out of the income of one and we are at the point where CCP do realize that the income from us is not high enough, so they need to introduce MTs. If they would only develope ONE extra game at a time, i believe that we wouldnt have that problem. There would be even more money for Eve so that proper patches and addons that we would call "addons" again would be the case.
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Centaur Centurion
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jenn aSide Edited by: Jenn aSide on 01/07/2011 15:13:44
-Voice of reason-
But seriously, no one with any sense wants CCP to NOT expand, make money or make new games. They are a business.
But you have to expand SMARTLY, in a timely fashion. Trying to make TWO news games from the income of one that itself needs some loving (thanks for your efforts anyways Team BFF) during a worldwide recession where there are potentially fewer dollars to be spent on gaming/entertainment is at best foolish and at worst criminally stupid.
Many of us resent the foolishness because it threatens to alter our game experience that we are already paying for.
Hope that sums it up for y'all CCP loyalists :) .
-/Voice of Reason-
PS you all suck.
Quote 4tw.
CCP mismanaged by trying developing two new games, which leads the development for EvE lacks and they want to milk more money out of EvE.
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Sub Prime
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:41:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Sub Prime on 01/07/2011 16:41:19
Originally by: Captain Futur3 Yes, its normal and ok when one game funds the next game if the sucess is big enough. But the normal case is that a company of the size of CCP will only develop ONE more game after Eve and not 2 at the same time. Its simply that CCP needs a course in economics and game developement, else we wouldnt be in this situation. They tried to create three games out of the income of one and we are at the point where CCP do realize that the income from us is not high enough, so they need to introduce MTs. If they would only develope ONE extra game at a time, i believe that we wouldnt have that problem. There would be even more money for Eve so that proper patches and addons that we would call "addons" again would be the case.
+1
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Lu'Marat
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Posted - 2011.07.01 16:41:00 -
[60]
Also, I really don't get where people are getting their WoD-facts. 1: It's not just about vampires. World of Darkness is an immensely popular and successful pen&paper game system that sports all kinds of horror-themed creatures. 2: WoD has absolutely -nothing- to do with the current teen-angst vampire chick. That's just low... 3: CCP acquired/partnered with/whatever White Wolf years ago, long before any recession. This is not about them grabbing cheap recession assets because they're greedy, this is about CCP buying a high-profile franchise with a lot of potential.
Oh and 4: DUST may not be about internet spaceships but I for one think it will be awesome if they manage to pull off integrating it with EVE, which alone will provide for tons of new gameplay.
Bottom Line: CCP mismanaged and I really think we should tear down this junk so we can at least see it burn pretty.
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