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Why are some people against purchasing SP?

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Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:19:00 - [1] I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:20:00 - [2] Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. ~~~
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:26:00 - [3] Sounds like there's a potential market for Starter SP Packages for New Characters. ----- Request for Eve Development Roadmap. Let CSM know that we want one.
Water MEI	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:26:00 - [4] I probably can think up couple reasons 1) people can estimate the sp of a certain character based on their birth date, with purchase sp with MT, it would be impossible :) 2) Purchase an old character via character bazaar will have it pro and con, such as the corp history, sec rating etc. so buy sp directly with CCP means they will have to generate SP rather than just trade SP between players, it could create anomalies in the whole system and cause other players to feel... imbalanced. it could also have negative impact on the game's 'fun value' for one, I'm looking forward when I finally completed certain long skills and able to fly certain ship with great efficiency. By adding the ability of purchase SP directly from CCP, I believe that fun would be taking away over time. but I won't mind if they have certain benefits toward new player/ character with low sp, such as the current increase learning speed etc, so new players can enjoy the middle-game or perhaps end-game easier just my opinion :)
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:28:00 - [5] Edited by: J Kunjeh on 07/07/2011 15:28:24 I'm personally opposed to buying SP's directly; they should be earned over time. But I'm not opposed to the possibility of some kind of implant, or item purchased using AUR that would speed up training time (on the order of 25-30% max, not double) for a non-permanent duration of time (a week?). ~Gnosis~
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:28:00 - [6] Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. ~Gnosis~
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. Congrats. Buying a character is still not the same as buying SP. ~~~
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:35:00 - [9] under the current system, a character represents an investment of both in-game time and money. Even a purchased character was played in-game at some point. If SP can be purchased, all of a sudden characters can be build with only money. There are 2 results... first, it devalues all existing characters as those now represent soley a $ value rather than a combination of time and money. Second, it sidesteps playing the game in a way that a purchased character does not. look at it like Plex: With plex, no isk is created out of thin air... with plex, the isk to purchase the plex was developed inside the game. It doesn't sidestep gameplay or the player economy at all. Rather it builds off of it. This is what the current character transfer system does as well... all characters transfered were in-game chars to some extent... even if it was only to log on to alter skills. With purchased SP, the entire existing system can be bypassed entirely. It's a fundamental change in the way the system works, and it's one that I among many, would leave the game over.
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Riley Moore on 07/07/2011 15:35:29 Buying character = buying someone else's time that they invested into gathering SP. Buying SP = Giving CCP money and they create sp out of thin air and give it to you. Ninjad! --- Sentinum Research Store

Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Someone still had to play that 53m SP character for a few years before it got to 53m SP. Effort went into it, time went into it and whoever created that character gets the ISK/PLEX for it. It all stays within the confines of the sandbox. If you can buy SP directly from CCP, there is no effort, no time and no one ingame to recieve the ISK/PLEX. And then the sandbox is broken. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Well those 53m SP had already been sold by CCP once while the character trained. And then you purchased some ISK and paid for them again. Paid for the exact same 53m SP again So currently CCP are selling the exact same SP over and over and you are asking why CCP aren't changing that system? If I had something I could sell over and over, I wouldn't change it either. CCP know that selling SP slowly over time is rubbish. They look at my 0.5 euro a day and they go "It's gun be a long time before I get muh big yacht" but then you come along and drop $300 on something they already sold once... and it's dollars-in-the-eyes time! ($) ($) KER CHING CHING CHING! If CCP sell it directly and at will they're only competing with themselves. Makes no sense to change.
Iancasnim	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. It may seem like you bought SP, but in fact you only bought the time that someone else put into a character. That character came from another player. That player now has ISK that he can recylce into the economy. Now, imagine for a moment you bought that 53 mil SP from the NEX. You insert $$$ and get SP that you then apply to skills as you desire. That $$$ didn't go into ISK. That $$$ didn't go to another player. The SP was simply injected into the game world through an exchange that involved funds from outside of EvE. I'm not an economist, but I know very well that this is not a good move for the EvE economy. So I agree with Spank: It's not the same. I used to think so until someone kindly pointed out: You can't buy SP if there are no characters to buy.
Ingvar Engst Caldari Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Someone put in the time and effort to train that character though. The skill points on it were earned, not. You're benefitting from someone else's work, not from magically appearing skill points.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. CCP Shadow 24/06/2010 17:30:40: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE. October 2010 CSM Virtual Goods unveiled
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:49:00 - [16] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did.
Signal11th	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Signal11th on 07/07/2011 15:54:28 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did. Well done have a lollipop :-) No being serious buying a character as many people have already said is definately not the same as ISK for SP.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. The value I found was saving a nearly hundreds not training the skills myself. Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself thats worth months of gimp mode and costing me hundreds more in subscription fees. Personally, I found that if I intended to play the game for over a year, I would have been a sucker to not purchase SP, not even considering its more expensive to train yourself.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:59:00 - [19] Originally by: stoicfaux Sounds like there's a potential market for Starter SP Packages for New Characters. Alts online just got more interesting Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Mark Sherlock I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. Congrats. Buying a character is still not the same as buying SP. This. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.

Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:05:00 - [21] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/07/2011 16:06:20 Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/07/2011 16:05:10 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. You bought a character that someone spent the time to train. The purchase of a character benefits the game in that someone benefited from your purchase. Not everyone can afford to do such a thing or are willing to do it. That's fine. The other benefit of maintaining character purchases is that it is finite in supply, assuming CCP isn't creating high sp characters for sale. Whereas, SP that CCP magically creates out of thin air, could have ruinous effects and in general is demoralizing to the core playerbase that have been with the company for years grinding the training que. Purchasing SP direct from CCP only benefits CCP, not the game or the players who might have the foresight to train a character for sale. I'm not against CCP getting a cut of the action from character purchases. But I am against SP purchase. You want to purchase a character that someone is no longer using? Great! Do it! Have fun! Stop throwing the fact that you did in everyone's face as if it's a SP purchase. It is not.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose Well those 53m SP had already been sold by CCP once while the character trained. And then you purchased some ISK and paid for them again. Paid for the exact same 53m SP again So currently CCP are selling the exact same SP over and over and you are asking why CCP aren't changing that system? If I had something I could sell over and over, I wouldn't change it either. CCP know that selling SP slowly over time is rubbish. They look at my 0.5 euro a day and they go "It's gun be a long time before I get muh big yacht" but then you come along and drop $300 on something they already sold once... and it's dollars-in-the-eyes time! ($) ($) KER CHING CHING CHING! If CCP sell it directly and at will they're only competing with themselves. Makes no sense to change. This is not considering that they lose an EQUAL amount of training time as well, my training time in subscription fees. This is why many subscription services ban selling characters. Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. Maybe I am missing something, but i was sure I was purchasing SP, at a fantastic rate in comparison to subscription fees.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did. You sold plex on contact? Wow what a maroon. So not only are you too stupid to see the difference between selling a GTC for ISK to buy a character that was not customized to your perfect specifications (you might have found one that was close but it's not the same) and just buying SP outright but you also let someone rip you off in the process. LOL. The only reason people would buy a plex off contract is if they are trying to get it for cheaper than they could on the market. The point is that the old plex system in no way shape or form bypasses any existing game mechanics. Someone had to spend the time training that character they had to earn the isk to buy the skill books they had to wait the years it took to acquire all those skillpoints. The person you sold the plex too still had to earn the isk to buy them. It's simple Old Plex system sans Aurum = did not bypass game mechanics and time investment. New plex system with Aurum would bypass game mechanics. There is a world of difference may seem subtle but as Soundwave said the devil is in the details.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Teala Te'Jir Amarr Mr. Benjamin Enterprises	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:17:00 - [25] No, no, no...no selling of SP for rl money no matter how much people ***** and moan. This will do nothing but cause insane amount of whining on the boards and overtax CCP trying to sort out all the petitions because some noob that bought 40mil SP lost their big bad, fully fitted BS to another character - a character that knew how to actually fly their ship and not some noob that on day one bought their SP! Players still need to learn the ropes. It should still take time to learn how to play. Putting a day old noob into a BS with t2 guns, rigs and whatnot is just not right and will only bring grief to the noob player and to CCP. CCP will be catching all the flak and the number of petitions will go through the roof. If new players want more SP they should still have to earn it. Maybe CCP can increase the rate at which a new player learns skills and maybe increase the cap from 1.6 mil to say 10 mil. But this just being able to outright buy SP. If they do that I'll biomass my characters and write the most scathing article I have ever written slamming CCP for being so stupid. Trust me I am all for new players gaining SP faster...but not like this. Not simply by going into the NEX and buying it. That I am totally and fervently against.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Skex Relbore You sold plex on contact? Wow what a maroon. So not only are you too stupid to see the difference between selling a GTC for ISK to buy a character that was not customized to your perfect specifications (you might have found one that was close but it's not the same) and just buying SP outright but you also let someone rip you off in the process. LOL. The only reason people would buy a plex off contract is if they are trying to get it for cheaper than they could on the market. The point is that the old plex system in no way shape or form bypasses any existing game mechanics. Someone had to spend the time training that character they had to earn the isk to buy the skill books they had to wait the years it took to acquire all those skillpoints. The person you sold the plex too still had to earn the isk to buy them. It's simple Old Plex system sans Aurum = did not bypass game mechanics and time investment. New plex system with Aurum would bypass game mechanics. There is a world of difference may seem subtle but as Soundwave said the devil is in the details. I weighed selling them for a higher return. Time has a currency value associated to it in my opinion. Immediate return at a cost was more preferable to spending time and effort for a higher return. You can call my a maroon(?), but I was totally saticfied with my results. I could say that many people here are maroons for spending their money on subscriptions fees in order to train their character, that is my opinion in a game as top heavy as this one. But that is only just my opinion, nothing more. They very well must value their experience in different ways than myself, I wouldn't insult them for such, and I don't.
Leah Solo	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself Sense of accomplishment maybe? Knowledge of the mechanics and the game itself? Skilling up with friends and enjoying yourselves in the process..no? Oh well..53 mil sp n00b is 53 mil sp n00b.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. You seem like a smart guy and not at all like a troll, so why dont you see if you can work it out for yourself. I call "warmer" or "cooler" as you get closer or further way from the answer. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Morgan Polaris	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:27:00 - [29] Someone trained those SP's, right? Someone played for that ISK, right? There's your answer. Donations accepted: 1BpQEYT7aSUNM863BV67FPxyv1cpxr74uu
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself.



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