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Why are some people against purchasing SP?

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Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:19:00 - [1] I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:20:00 - [2] Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. ~~~
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:26:00 - [3] Sounds like there's a potential market for Starter SP Packages for New Characters. ----- Request for Eve Development Roadmap. Let CSM know that we want one.
Water MEI	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:26:00 - [4] I probably can think up couple reasons 1) people can estimate the sp of a certain character based on their birth date, with purchase sp with MT, it would be impossible :) 2) Purchase an old character via character bazaar will have it pro and con, such as the corp history, sec rating etc. so buy sp directly with CCP means they will have to generate SP rather than just trade SP between players, it could create anomalies in the whole system and cause other players to feel... imbalanced. it could also have negative impact on the game's 'fun value' for one, I'm looking forward when I finally completed certain long skills and able to fly certain ship with great efficiency. By adding the ability of purchase SP directly from CCP, I believe that fun would be taking away over time. but I won't mind if they have certain benefits toward new player/ character with low sp, such as the current increase learning speed etc, so new players can enjoy the middle-game or perhaps end-game easier just my opinion :)
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:28:00 - [5] Edited by: J Kunjeh on 07/07/2011 15:28:24 I'm personally opposed to buying SP's directly; they should be earned over time. But I'm not opposed to the possibility of some kind of implant, or item purchased using AUR that would speed up training time (on the order of 25-30% max, not double) for a non-permanent duration of time (a week?). ~Gnosis~
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:28:00 - [6] Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. ~Gnosis~
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. Congrats. Buying a character is still not the same as buying SP. ~~~
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:35:00 - [9] under the current system, a character represents an investment of both in-game time and money. Even a purchased character was played in-game at some point. If SP can be purchased, all of a sudden characters can be build with only money. There are 2 results... first, it devalues all existing characters as those now represent soley a $ value rather than a combination of time and money. Second, it sidesteps playing the game in a way that a purchased character does not. look at it like Plex: With plex, no isk is created out of thin air... with plex, the isk to purchase the plex was developed inside the game. It doesn't sidestep gameplay or the player economy at all. Rather it builds off of it. This is what the current character transfer system does as well... all characters transfered were in-game chars to some extent... even if it was only to log on to alter skills. With purchased SP, the entire existing system can be bypassed entirely. It's a fundamental change in the way the system works, and it's one that I among many, would leave the game over.
Riley Moore Sentinum Research	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:35:00 - [10] Edited by: Riley Moore on 07/07/2011 15:35:29 Buying character = buying someone else's time that they invested into gathering SP. Buying SP = Giving CCP money and they create sp out of thin air and give it to you. Ninjad! --- Sentinum Research Store

Thenoran Caldari Tranquility Industries	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Someone still had to play that 53m SP character for a few years before it got to 53m SP. Effort went into it, time went into it and whoever created that character gets the ISK/PLEX for it. It all stays within the confines of the sandbox. If you can buy SP directly from CCP, there is no effort, no time and no one ingame to recieve the ISK/PLEX. And then the sandbox is broken. ------------------------ Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Well those 53m SP had already been sold by CCP once while the character trained. And then you purchased some ISK and paid for them again. Paid for the exact same 53m SP again So currently CCP are selling the exact same SP over and over and you are asking why CCP aren't changing that system? If I had something I could sell over and over, I wouldn't change it either. CCP know that selling SP slowly over time is rubbish. They look at my 0.5 euro a day and they go "It's gun be a long time before I get muh big yacht" but then you come along and drop $300 on something they already sold once... and it's dollars-in-the-eyes time! ($) ($) KER CHING CHING CHING! If CCP sell it directly and at will they're only competing with themselves. Makes no sense to change.
Iancasnim	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. It may seem like you bought SP, but in fact you only bought the time that someone else put into a character. That character came from another player. That player now has ISK that he can recylce into the economy. Now, imagine for a moment you bought that 53 mil SP from the NEX. You insert $$$ and get SP that you then apply to skills as you desire. That $$$ didn't go into ISK. That $$$ didn't go to another player. The SP was simply injected into the game world through an exchange that involved funds from outside of EvE. I'm not an economist, but I know very well that this is not a good move for the EvE economy. So I agree with Spank: It's not the same. I used to think so until someone kindly pointed out: You can't buy SP if there are no characters to buy.
Ingvar Engst Caldari Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. Someone put in the time and effort to train that character though. The skill points on it were earned, not. You're benefitting from someone else's work, not from magically appearing skill points.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:49:00 - [15] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. CCP Shadow 24/06/2010 17:30:40: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE. October 2010 CSM Virtual Goods unveiled
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:49:00 - [16] Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did.
Signal11th	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Signal11th on 07/07/2011 15:54:28 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did. Well done have a lollipop :-) No being serious buying a character as many people have already said is definately not the same as ISK for SP.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:58:00 - [18] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. The value I found was saving a nearly hundreds not training the skills myself. Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself thats worth months of gimp mode and costing me hundreds more in subscription fees. Personally, I found that if I intended to play the game for over a year, I would have been a sucker to not purchase SP, not even considering its more expensive to train yourself.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:59:00 - [19] Originally by: stoicfaux Sounds like there's a potential market for Starter SP Packages for New Characters. Alts online just got more interesting Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 15:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Mark Sherlock I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. Congrats. Buying a character is still not the same as buying SP. This. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.

Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:05:00 - [21] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/07/2011 16:06:20 Edited by: Mr Kidd on 07/07/2011 16:05:10 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. You bought a character that someone spent the time to train. The purchase of a character benefits the game in that someone benefited from your purchase. Not everyone can afford to do such a thing or are willing to do it. That's fine. The other benefit of maintaining character purchases is that it is finite in supply, assuming CCP isn't creating high sp characters for sale. Whereas, SP that CCP magically creates out of thin air, could have ruinous effects and in general is demoralizing to the core playerbase that have been with the company for years grinding the training que. Purchasing SP direct from CCP only benefits CCP, not the game or the players who might have the foresight to train a character for sale. I'm not against CCP getting a cut of the action from character purchases. But I am against SP purchase. You want to purchase a character that someone is no longer using? Great! Do it! Have fun! Stop throwing the fact that you did in everyone's face as if it's a SP purchase. It is not.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose Well those 53m SP had already been sold by CCP once while the character trained. And then you purchased some ISK and paid for them again. Paid for the exact same 53m SP again So currently CCP are selling the exact same SP over and over and you are asking why CCP aren't changing that system? If I had something I could sell over and over, I wouldn't change it either. CCP know that selling SP slowly over time is rubbish. They look at my 0.5 euro a day and they go "It's gun be a long time before I get muh big yacht" but then you come along and drop $300 on something they already sold once... and it's dollars-in-the-eyes time! ($) ($) KER CHING CHING CHING! If CCP sell it directly and at will they're only competing with themselves. Makes no sense to change. This is not considering that they lose an EQUAL amount of training time as well, my training time in subscription fees. This is why many subscription services ban selling characters. Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. Maybe I am missing something, but i was sure I was purchasing SP, at a fantastic rate in comparison to subscription fees.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: J Kunjeh Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. RL cash? Isn't that against the TOS/EULA? I thought characters could only be sold for ISK? Admittedly, I don't claim to know much about it as I've never considered it myself, so I could be wrong. You can buy PLEX through CCP, which I did. Sell that PLEX to contracts in mass to generate isk, which i did. Find a tailored character with the skills you want trained and nothing more and pruchase it with ISK, which i did. You sold plex on contact? Wow what a maroon. So not only are you too stupid to see the difference between selling a GTC for ISK to buy a character that was not customized to your perfect specifications (you might have found one that was close but it's not the same) and just buying SP outright but you also let someone rip you off in the process. LOL. The only reason people would buy a plex off contract is if they are trying to get it for cheaper than they could on the market. The point is that the old plex system in no way shape or form bypasses any existing game mechanics. Someone had to spend the time training that character they had to earn the isk to buy the skill books they had to wait the years it took to acquire all those skillpoints. The person you sold the plex too still had to earn the isk to buy them. It's simple Old Plex system sans Aurum = did not bypass game mechanics and time investment. New plex system with Aurum would bypass game mechanics. There is a world of difference may seem subtle but as Soundwave said the devil is in the details.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Teala Te'Jir Amarr Mr. Benjamin Enterprises	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:17:00 - [25] No, no, no...no selling of SP for rl money no matter how much people ***** and moan. This will do nothing but cause insane amount of whining on the boards and overtax CCP trying to sort out all the petitions because some noob that bought 40mil SP lost their big bad, fully fitted BS to another character - a character that knew how to actually fly their ship and not some noob that on day one bought their SP! Players still need to learn the ropes. It should still take time to learn how to play. Putting a day old noob into a BS with t2 guns, rigs and whatnot is just not right and will only bring grief to the noob player and to CCP. CCP will be catching all the flak and the number of petitions will go through the roof. If new players want more SP they should still have to earn it. Maybe CCP can increase the rate at which a new player learns skills and maybe increase the cap from 1.6 mil to say 10 mil. But this just being able to outright buy SP. If they do that I'll biomass my characters and write the most scathing article I have ever written slamming CCP for being so stupid. Trust me I am all for new players gaining SP faster...but not like this. Not simply by going into the NEX and buying it. That I am totally and fervently against.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Skex Relbore You sold plex on contact? Wow what a maroon. So not only are you too stupid to see the difference between selling a GTC for ISK to buy a character that was not customized to your perfect specifications (you might have found one that was close but it's not the same) and just buying SP outright but you also let someone rip you off in the process. LOL. The only reason people would buy a plex off contract is if they are trying to get it for cheaper than they could on the market. The point is that the old plex system in no way shape or form bypasses any existing game mechanics. Someone had to spend the time training that character they had to earn the isk to buy the skill books they had to wait the years it took to acquire all those skillpoints. The person you sold the plex too still had to earn the isk to buy them. It's simple Old Plex system sans Aurum = did not bypass game mechanics and time investment. New plex system with Aurum would bypass game mechanics. There is a world of difference may seem subtle but as Soundwave said the devil is in the details. I weighed selling them for a higher return. Time has a currency value associated to it in my opinion. Immediate return at a cost was more preferable to spending time and effort for a higher return. You can call my a maroon(?), but I was totally saticfied with my results. I could say that many people here are maroons for spending their money on subscriptions fees in order to train their character, that is my opinion in a game as top heavy as this one. But that is only just my opinion, nothing more. They very well must value their experience in different ways than myself, I wouldn't insult them for such, and I don't.
Leah Solo	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. OP knows the price of everything and value of nothing.... its pointless trying to explain, but welcome to the new eve. Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself Sense of accomplishment maybe? Knowledge of the mechanics and the game itself? Skilling up with friends and enjoying yourselves in the process..no? Oh well..53 mil sp n00b is 53 mil sp n00b.
Malcanis Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. You seem like a smart guy and not at all like a troll, so why dont you see if you can work it out for yourself. I call "warmer" or "cooler" as you get closer or further way from the answer. Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
Morgan Polaris	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:27:00 - [29] Someone trained those SP's, right? Someone played for that ISK, right? There's your answer. Donations accepted: 1BpQEYT7aSUNM863BV67FPxyv1cpxr74uu
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself.

Iggy Stooge	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I could say that many people here are maroons for spending their money on subscriptions fees in order to train their character, that is my opinion in a game as top heavy as this one. But that is only just my opinion, nothing more. They very well must value their experience in different ways than myself, I wouldn't insult them for such, and I don't. People don't spend their money on subscriptions in order to train their character, they do it to play the game. Believe it or not, that for many is fun. All you have bought is a character, with accumulated SP, but you can't buy the years of enjoyment that went along with playing Eve while building this character. Nor can you buy knowledge, experience or in game friends. You may think staring out at the 'top' is the best use of your time and money, but believe me, it isn't.
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Teala Te'Jir No, no, no...no selling of SP for rl money no matter how much people ***** and moan. This will do nothing but cause insane amount of whining on the boards and overtax CCP trying to sort out all the petitions because some noob that bought 40mil SP lost their big bad, fully fitted BS to another character - a character that knew how to actually fly their ship and not some noob that on day one bought their SP! Players still need to learn the ropes. It should still take time to learn how to play. Putting a day old noob into a BS with t2 guns, rigs and whatnot is just not right and will only bring grief to the noob player and to CCP. Man that is the same old tired argument with a HUGE assumption. The assumption is that it is a LOW SP pilot wishing to buy SP. But what of the 60-80 Million SP pilot that wants to buy 10 million SP to round out a half dozen skills from Level 4 to Level 5? THAT is the person who will want to buy SP. Or maybe another 80 Million SP guy who wants a new character with some skills and they are perfectly able to utilize that new character. Those are the people willing to pay...
Rividien Calennand Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:43:00 - [33] so you opened a thread asking why people was against a matter just to keep not listening and to say you're right? if you can't understand the difference between creating a 60m character from thin air and buying an already existing one then you do not deserve more answers.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 16:45:00 - [34] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself. But the guy that trained the char spent either RL monies or bought plex, (which is still RL monies) to train it. Then you spent even more RL monies (via plex) to purchase the char. So again, where is the lost revenue? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself. But the guy that trained the char spent either RL monies or bought plex, (which is still RL monies) to train it. Then you spent even more RL monies (via plex) to purchase the char. So again, where is the lost revenue? I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:19:00 - [36] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. You spent $200 on top of the monies someone already spent on that char, that's not a loss but a gain. Again, please point to the loss of revenue, so far you haven't. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:19:00 - [37] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. Someone else, however, did spend the time and possibly the cash to train that character up. That's the point you refuse to accept. Every skill point on the character you bought was already earned. The character changed hands after the work was done. You want characters to be granted high levels of skill points without any work at all. Therein lies the rub. There is no monocle.
Nizran L'Crit Caldari Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:30:00 - [38] Ok, buying chars in the bazaar is not a bad thing. Let me preface with that, I am not attacking you, just trying to see if you can understand what we're saying. A guy/gal goes and starts a character in EVE Online. They skill up this character to 53m SP and then turns around an sells it. This person gets the money from that venture and it is his profit for his work on skilling up that character. He takes this ISK that he just made and buys himself a bada$$ ship with killer modules. He just injected that money back into the Market thereby giving the people who made those ships more money to spend on other things and so on and so forth. Those billions of ISK will go to work in the market a hundred times over and continue to benefit the players. A guy/gal goes and starts a character in EVE Online. They skill up this character to 53m SP and in the process, pays CCP 6 Billion ISK in plex. CCP says thank you very much and it disappears....no market injection, no people benefitting from it, it disappears into thin air. That is the difference that everyone is trying to explain. This game lets people do things like create a business that makes corps, gets them to high standings and then resells them, or a character who skills up chars and then sells them in the bazaar, or acts as a third party for items that can't be sold in market or on contract. If CCP gets it's greedy little paws into that, it would start to infringe on individual people's methods of profit and businesses, much like governments do. It's a no no and in the long run would cause fluctuations in the market in a negative way. I wanna be L337!!!
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I weighed selling them for a higher return. Time has a currency value associated to it in my opinion. Immediate return at a cost was more preferable to spending time and effort for a higher return. You can call my a maroon(?), but I was totally saticfied with my results. There are buy orders on the market as well you know and I'd wager real money that the person you contracted to were buying under that otherwise they are the chump. I don't pay money to train my characters I pay money to play the game and I happen to train while doing that. Buying SP bypasses the whole playing the game thing. I'm pretty sure the intention of the character bazaar wasn't for people to be able to buy them for real world cash and I suspect that the bulk of the market is actually people who have played wanting to change focus or try something new so they earn the isk by playing the game then use said isk to buy a trained character. So an industrialist who has made a killing selling marauders and then decides they want to PVP looks at the character bazaar and buys a PVP spec'd character. While the plex system can be used to convert real life cash into isk to buy said characters that's not it's only use. Of course you still ignore the whole buying SP BYPASSES GAME MECHANICS thing. Personally I think a newby spending real life cash on a pre-existing character is stupid. I mean why play the damned game at all at that point. To make it even more stupid you're not going to be as invested in the game and the character so you're far less likely to stick around for any substantial length of time and you just blew a load of cash on a game you won't be playing. But hey that's you're choice and as long as you do it through the character bazaar you aren't affecting my game. I can still get a decent guess on how many sp you have so I'll have some idea of how dangerous your character might be. Personally I find that a significant portion of the satisfaction in playing the game comes from the waiting to unlock abilities. The wait adds to the feeling of accomplishment once it completes. It also puts consequences on ones training decisions. You have to make choices of what to prioritize when one decides to train one thing you automatically have to defer training another. For instance my goal for this character is to be PVP capable (full T2 fitting) in every sub-cap ship in the game sans Black Ops (will do eventually but I consider that more a part of eventual cap training. Currently I can fly all T1 ships save for the tier 2 and 3 Amarr as far as weapon systems go I still have to finish training large lasers to T2 and all missile skills to the same. I have to make choices on which to train when, by training to fly Amarr BS and use large T2 lasers I'm putting off training up my missile skills, the 30 days I spent training logi 5 delayed everything else. So the choices have rewards and consequences. When I spent a year on int/mem skills I put off T2 ships and weapons. Yeah it was annoying at the time that was the cost, the reward was that when I finished it and switched to per/will I was able to train the ship/weapon skill and just start flying them while my buddy who started playing at the same time and trained more willy nilly is locked out of certain ship types due to lacking pre-reqs. You are bypassing that portion of the game when you buy a character but at least when you do it through the bazaar someone had to make those choices and you are stuck with the consequences of those choices. Buying SP completely removes all the consequences. EVE without consequence isn't EVE anymore it's just another old ass game with a **** poor UI.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 17:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. You spent $200 on top of the monies someone already spent on that char, that's not a loss but a gain. Again, please point to the loss of revenue, so far you haven't. You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked.

Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. Well, no. It's bonus money actually, over and above the training. You're paying for the account regardless. You're paying the same money to continue training this character as you would have with a brand new character. Therefore there's no actual loss from you. The gain is that you paid an additional $200 for a character that someone already paid $400 in subscriptions to skill up. By paying $200 for that character, you turned it into a $600 character with the skills of a $400 character, plus you're still going to be paying the subscription. If you'd started from scratch and spent $200 for the skill points that whole original $400 would never have happened and would be lost revenues. There is no monocle.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:13:00 - [42] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. You spent $200 on top of the monies someone already spent on that char, that's not a loss but a gain. Again, please point to the loss of revenue, so far you haven't. You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. lol You only have one subscription per account per month. Buying a character with eleventy billion skillpoints isn't going to change that therefore you are having no impact on their revenue steam by way of the number of skillpoints you have. ~~~
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:15:00 - [43] Edited by: Mag''s on 07/07/2011 18:16:23 Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. You didn't train the char, so it cost you $200 to buy it pre-trained. You didn't spend the time training it, it was pre-trained. It already cost RL monies to train that char, you simply added extra monies to the pot for the pre-trained char. Someone already spent time and monies training it. For you to do the same it would take over 2 years. You will now play and still pay, no matter how long you play for. CCP have not lost any revenue, they have in fact gained, because you paid RL monies for a pre-trained char. $200 + $400 = $600 last I checked. Now, please tell me where the lost revenue is. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Skex Relbore Personally I think a newby spending real life cash on a pre-existing character is stupid. I mean why play the damned game at all at that point. To make it even more stupid you're not going to be as invested in the game and the character so you're far less likely to stick around for any substantial length of time and you just blew a load of cash on a game you won't be playing. SP system is a time sink, exteremly top heavy time sink where I beleive only inceasing subscription time necessary is really the goal. I think this game is amazing, but hell if I'm going to be stuck in gimp mode when simply trying to pilot a frigate for months. Luckily you can pay to win the SP game circumventing this. Paying $15 a month to queue up skills for a couple months is foolish. I'm not talking Cruiers or Battleships, I'm talking just Frigs. I only purchased the SP after I played the game for 4 weeks and realized what's probably oblivious to most newbs, it takes months to effectively pilot a ship. Months of logging in, queuing, logging out. I already hit the standings I wanted with NPC corps I choose, there wasn't much less for me to do than practice PvP in losing ships. Which I found out in comparison to other corpmates that its very different with newb skills than when you have some skills leveled up, same ship, same fittings. What I would be losing primary in purchasing SP, is the gimp mode. That and I would have to spend more money if I trained conventionally. The difference in practicing with 53m as opposed to 1.2m is I can gain more peronsal experiance faster, puting more of it in my control and less in a skill queue system. With money and losing ships not an issue, its a better situation imo. Originally by: Skex Relbore You are bypassing that portion of the game when you buy a character but at least when you do it through the bazaar someone had to make those choices and you are stuck with the consequences of those choices. Luckily there are nice wiki articles covering such aspects and what to watch out for.
Cpt Greagor Caldari Liquid Relief	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:17:00 - [45] Buying SP is very much different than buying a character with SP. When you buy SP, the SP just comes out of thin air instantly. When you buy a character, SOMEONE had to take the time to train that character up, and the isk you pay for that character goes back into the games market, not CCP's big evil corporation. ------------------------------ Inclina ad gigas turtur, qui tenet universum.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I only purchased the SP after I played the game for 4 weeks and realized what's probably oblivious to most newbs, it takes months to effectively pilot a ship. Months of logging in, queuing, logging out. I already hit the standings I wanted with NPC corps I choose, there wasn't much less for me to do than practice PvP in losing ships. What you fail to realize is that you can buy a character with the skills to pilot ships and it could still take months before you can pilot those ships. There is no monocle.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. You spent $200 on top of the monies someone already spent on that char, that's not a loss but a gain. Again, please point to the loss of revenue, so far you haven't. You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. No wonder you got scammed you don't understand basic math. As far as CCP is concerned they got all $600 plus you are now on the hook for subscription fees for however long you decide to pay. Those plex you bought will be used by someone who may have stopped playing do to lack of real life money so they are winners. The player you gave the ISKies to can now turn around and use said isk to buy shinnies or another character to play this after having had the ability to play said character for the last 3 years. You meanwhile are stuck with what ever name the creator decided to give the purchased toon as well as any reputation and faction standings (or lack there of) that the original player made. If the character was used as a spy good luck getting into a player corporation. Oh and I find the idea that you managed to buy a 53mil SP pilot for $200 worth of plex completely non-credible. At 400 mil per plex that's only 5.2bil isk and from looking through the board that's less than half what characters with that level of SP are going for. So you either got a really good deal, there was something wrong with the character or you are exaggerating(lying) somewhere.
Adelain Niska Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Rividien Calennand so you opened a thread asking why people was against a matter just to keep not listening and to say you're right? if you can't understand the difference between creating a 60m character from thin air and buying an already existing one then you do not deserve more answers. I don't care either way. Makes no difference if I can/can't buy SP. I do have questions as to why folks get into a huff over it. Does a person who is buying a 60 mil SP chr or buying the 60 mil SP (hypothetically) really care about the time someone put into building the 60 mil SP chr? Should they? What does it matter? Does that time add anything to the chr? Whether the SP were built up over years or created instantly, they are no different to the end user of the SP. Time doesn't matter and shouldn't to the hypothetical person making the purchase. The only valid, yet shallow, argument I can see after reading this thread is that people don't want others doing something they don't want to/can't do themselves under the guise that the time someone puts into building up the SP matters. ---- My reputation is not solid.
Ranger64511 Operational Detachment-Alpha The 0rphanage	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. Because if you buy SP you can be in any ship that you want right away. So we will have one, two day old pilots that can fly titans and Super Capital ships. This is silly and would throw off the game. Skill training is one of the things that I enjoy about EVE. We all started out as a new pilot and worked our way up to where we are today. How fair also would it be for a 2003 or even a 2004 player? They spent years training and now a new 2011 pilot can fly the same things with the same amount of skills. Basically it comes down to a balance in the game and if SP is bought then it will through the balance out the window. --------------------------- We live to die another day.
Reilly Duvolle	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:35:00 - [50] Welcome to the instant gratification generation. What makes this game a keeper is the constant and lasting sense of achivement. I predict you'll last about 2 months.

Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 07/07/2011 18:16:23 Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. You didn't train the char, so it cost you $200 to buy it pre-trained. You didn't spend the time training it, it was pre-trained. It already cost RL monies to train that char, you simply added extra monies to the pot for the pre-trained char. Someone already spent time and monies training it. For you to do the same it would take over 2 years. You will now play and still pay, no matter how long you play for. CCP have not lost any revenue, they have in fact gained, because you paid RL monies for a pre-trained char. $200 + $400 = $600 last I checked. Now, please tell me where the lost revenue is. I have 53m SP right now. My training cost me $200. It's pretty cool I didnt have to pay $400 and wait two irl years. $200 and immediate is definitely cheeper and more fun imo. I do understand and agree with what you are saying. I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses?
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:39:00 - [52] Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 07/07/2011 18:40:09 Originally by: Adelain Niska I don't care either way. Makes no difference if I can/can't buy SP. I do have questions as to why folks get into a huff over it. Does a person who is buying a 60 mil SP chr or buying the 60 mil SP (hypothetically) really care about the time someone put into building the 60 mil SP chr? Should they? What does it matter? Does that time add anything to the chr? Whether the SP were built up over years or created instantly, they are no different to the end user of the SP. Time doesn't matter and shouldn't to the hypothetical person making the purchase. The only valid, yet shallow, argument I can see after reading this thread is that people don't want others doing something they don't want to/can't do themselves under the guise that the time someone puts into building up the SP matters. It's not only about the end result, it's the sum of all parts that's important. The ultimate essense of the issue is that you're creating something from thin air in a game designed to be effectivly fully player created. Aside from what... seeded skill books and the like, everything in Eve's economy is there due to the work of the player base. When you inject things from the outside like that you're bypassing all the player efforts. If you're incapable of understanding why this is bad, you're probably playing the wrong game. There is no monocle.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:40:00 - [53] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? You're an idiot? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Khamelean	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:44:00 - [54] I have to say I feel kinda sorry for the OP, You've just bypassed a great deal of the game that is a lot of fun. Playing games is about the experience, trying, failing, learning. It's would be like playing Diablo and starting with a max level character. I dare say you will get bored of Eve very quickly, but you have no one to blame but yourself.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I have 53m SP right now. My training cost me $200. It's pretty cool I didnt have to pay $400 and wait two irl years. $200 and immediate is definitely cheeper and more fun imo. I do understand and agree with what you are saying. I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? I think you're intentionally playing stupid now. The $200 you saved in training time isn't really saved. Someone else spent $400 of training time to create that character you paid an additional $200 for. You paid a $200 share of a character that had $600 spent to create. There's nothing lost. You added $200 value to a $400 character. That's an overall $200 gain for that character. Now you begin to pay for training time with your subscriptions. There is no monocle.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:46:00 - [56] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? You're an idiot? But he's an idiot with 53m SP. Nothing can go wrong. ~~~
Mavrk Minmatar TOP GUHN	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? You're an idiot? But he's an idiot with 53m SP. Nothing can go wrong. I think I found one of the greatest trolling threads ever... this is hilarious. --- I'm not trying to be a turd on purpose. I'm just telling you how you are wrong. Ok, yeah, its on purpose.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Mark Sherlock More stuff and nonsense Hey you want to skip the playing the game part by buying an existing character that's your choice. I think you are losing out on part of the experience and satisfaction of playing but to each their own. I played through it and now having played through the "gimp" mode as you call it and reaching the other side I have a much better understanding of what skills do what in the game, Having had to compensate with low SP I learned player skills that remain with me now that I'm no longer on the low SP side of the divide. Another thing you might not have considered is that players of equivalent experience against whom you'd have a better chance in battle will tend to avoid engaging you while those who are willing to do so will generally have much more actual player experience. I'd be real curious to see the combat record of this purchased toon to see just how much reading wiki's and guides has helped you overcome people with real in game knowledge. All that said it still doesn't make buying a character from the bazaar the equivalent of outright purchasing SP directly from CCP for cash.
Avid Bumhumper Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:56:00 - [59] Purchasing SP is a great idea! Just think, any griefer/thief can reroll a new character instantly. Avoid wardecs, theft claims, everything. I Don't support this product or service (Meaning Eve) *********************************** Current Subscription 3 Months Account Expires 18 August 2011 (in 43 days)
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 18:58:00 - [60] Originally by: Khamelean I have to say I feel kinda sorry for the OP, You've just bypassed a great deal of the game that is a lot of fun. Playing games is about the experience, trying, failing, learning. It's would be like playing Diablo and starting with a max level character. I dare say you will get bored of Eve very quickly, but you have no one to blame but yourself. Diablo II was awesome! None the less, at 1.2m sp I didnt find the game as fun in comparison to experiencing it now with 53m sp. I doubt there are many out there that create new characters with with the aim to train the new skills so they can experience "play the skill queue" once more. I would encourage anyone who does attempt the above, to play Diablo II while they're logged out waiting for their skills to train. Great game.

Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:02:00 - [61] Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. So you don't have to train that character, now that you have it are you gonna stop paying... It cost him $400 to train the Character but now he is done with the account. You payed $200 for the Character that is worthless to CCP. Now if you play $400 worth of time in EVE they made $1000 off the Character instead of $800 off of 2 Different Characters. Also Buying Character and Plexs are not the same as Buying ISK and SP. Those Characters were worked on and that ISK earned by another player, prices are not fixed the Playerbase decides the Price using items created in game by the Playerbase. Your ISK and Character are not free someone made them. New EVE [Sigh] I look forward to you slaming your unrigged medium shield extender Loki into my Hurricane. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
LtCol Laurentius Caldari Digital Fury Corporation	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:03:00 - [62] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Khamelean I have to say I feel kinda sorry for the OP, You've just bypassed a great deal of the game that is a lot of fun. Playing games is about the experience, trying, failing, learning. It's would be like playing Diablo and starting with a max level character. I dare say you will get bored of Eve very quickly, but you have no one to blame but yourself. Diablo II was awesome! None the less, at 1.2m sp I didnt find the game as fun in comparison to experiencing it now with 53m sp. I doubt there are many out there that create new characters with with the aim to train the new skills so they can experience "play the skill queue" once more. I would encourage anyone who does attempt the above, to play Diablo II while they're logged out waiting for their skills to train. Great game. Confirming i spent my first 2 years in EVE just watching my skills train. :facepalm:
Khamelean	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:15:00 - [63] Originally by: LtCol Laurentius Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Khamelean I have to say I feel kinda sorry for the OP, You've just bypassed a great deal of the game that is a lot of fun. Playing games is about the experience, trying, failing, learning. It's would be like playing Diablo and starting with a max level character. I dare say you will get bored of Eve very quickly, but you have no one to blame but yourself. Diablo II was awesome! None the less, at 1.2m sp I didnt find the game as fun in comparison to experiencing it now with 53m sp. I doubt there are many out there that create new characters with with the aim to train the new skills so they can experience "play the skill queue" once more. I would encourage anyone who does attempt the above, to play Diablo II while they're logged out waiting for their skills to train. Great game. Confirming i spent my first 2 years in EVE just watching my skills train. :facepalm: You have no imagination.
Anon Magnus	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:15:00 - [64] Hypocritical or not, when it comes to buying skill points added on top of the already existing PLEXà I want to scream ôthis far and NO MORE.ö It feels like there is already too much real world money affecting the game and injecting more into my virtual environment tanks the experience of actually playing and accomplishing goals. IÆd compare it to the difference between making out with a woman that actually likes you and another thatÆll only do it for money.
Mark Sherlock	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:23:00 - [65] Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 19:24:24 Originally by: Anon Magnus Hypocritical or not, when it comes to buying skill points added on top of the already existing PLEXà I want to scream ôthis far and NO MORE.ö It feels like there is already too much real world money affecting the game and injecting more into my virtual environment tanks the experience of actually playing and accomplishing goals. IÆd compare it to the difference between making out with a woman that actually likes you and another thatÆll only do it for money. I was actually quite amazed I could do this. Off topic, but I just got owned by some dude in a frig with my T2 fitted BS, so I'm going to buy a titan account. I hear those are so powerful you cant even bring them into low sec. Doesnt injecting the sandbox with massive amount of plex affect it somehow?
Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Doesnt injecting the sandbox with massive amount of plex affect it somehow? No because it injects no ISK, just moves it around from one account to another one. Originally by: Mark Sherlock I'm going to buy a titan account. I hear those are so powerful you cant even bring them into low sec? Less you can. Try fitting a Heavy Nuet, Web and Warriors if you are gonna solo in a Battleship. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:44:00 - [67] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 19:24:24 Originally by: Anon Magnus Hypocritical or not, when it comes to buying skill points added on top of the already existing PLEXà I want to scream ôthis far and NO MORE.ö It feels like there is already too much real world money affecting the game and injecting more into my virtual environment tanks the experience of actually playing and accomplishing goals. IÆd compare it to the difference between making out with a woman that actually likes you and another thatÆll only do it for money. I was actually quite amazed I could do this. Off topic, but I just got owned by some dude in a frig with my T2 fitted BS, so I'm going to buy a titan account. I hear those are so powerful you cant even bring them into low sec. 8/10 I think I've been trolled. I'd have scored it higher but you could have milked this much further if you'd not jumped the shark here.
Gah'q Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.07 19:47:00 - [68] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. Since your first reaction was to buy a character it's safe to assume you wouldn't have spent that $400 dollars to train your character to 53m sp, you would have probably quit after a few months. The choice here for CCP is "do we allow people to give us more money for characters for which we have ALREADY been payed (and in the process retain said customers) or do we force them to train and risk making them quit due to their lack of patience ?" Here's another way to explain it: a visual representation of the lifetime of the character you purchased from CCP's point of view: .... month 18: PLEX/subscription month 19: PLEX/subscription month 20: purchase fee + PLEX/subscription month 21: PLEX/subscription month 22: PLEX/subscription ....
Yseri	Posted - 2011.07.07 20:27:00 - [69] Personally I'd buy a few mil SP for PLEX/ISK/AUR/whatever. It takes over a year to get efficient in what you want to do, and that's if you know it from the beginning. My main is over 2 years old and it was only recently that I started having actual fun - for 1.5 years I was just looking at my skills training, doing some trading to get PLEXes. If I wanted to start doing something else now, it's another year of watching the damn blue bar. I'd much rather pay the equivalent of a year's subscription for, say, 40 mil SP than just wait, logging in once a week to set the queue. And before you say "game breaking" - I think Eve rewards your own experience more than your character's trained skills. You can buy a 75mil SP pilot and a Nyx, but you can't buy knowledge what to do with such ship, how to fit it and how not to lose it to a T2 frig. As much as I think it would help experienced players wanting to change the profession and such, I don't think it will ever happen, too many players are a bit touchy on the subject. I think a good alternative would be to make all characters on account train at once, and it's a feature that would make me really, really happy.
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.07.07 20:39:00 - [70] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. This is a copy and paste from a previous post of mine: To understand why that would be bad, lets pretend the following: You can buy skill points for RL currency You can buy ships for RL currency You can buy modules for RL currency You can buy ships/modules that are better for even more RL currency You can buy ammo, and even gold ammo, for RL currency What you buy cant be destroyed, just like it currently is with clothes and monocls while wearing them when your podded You still pay a monthly sub ( what, you didnt really think it was going away did you? ) So, your a noob with a halfway decent job able to afford a house and raise your kids. You activate your account for $20 and decide to fork over $100 for some skill points, modules, gold ammo, a few ships, for giggles some cool looking sunglasses, and you get into a large 0.0 alliance, all on your first day. Hooray! You pew pew here, you pew pew there and have a bit of fun untill.... you suddenly realize that nothing that you payed RL cash for is destructable. The clothes and the 'good' ships and mods respawn in your home system everytime you lose a fight. Whats more, the leader of that new upstart alliance called, 'I am Rich In RL and You Are NOT!' just bought his 100 members all skill points in game to max out their characters and the very best ships RL currency can buy and sit outside your home system station blowing everything up that undocks causing you to respawn in station with the exact same gear, except now you cant do anything because you cant keep from getting blown up everytime you undock. So you jumpclone, only to realize everything you paid for didnt follow your clone and your looking at spending more RL dollars unless you want to waste your time earning the in game isk currency. You quite in a huff after 1 month because theres no point in playing and move on to something else. That is what people are afraid of happening to Eve and why we are against it.

Yseri	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:02:00 - [71] Edited by: Yseri on 07/07/2011 21:02:52 Olleybear, we're not talking about buying everything for money, just SP. Right now the noob you're talking about has a year of watching the blue bar before getting skilled enough to avoid being blown up all the time. Another year if he wants to start manufacturing. And another if he decides to do missions. And so on...
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:23:00 - [72] Originally by: Yseri Edited by: Yseri on 07/07/2011 21:02:52 Olleybear, we're not talking about buying everything for money, just SP. Right now the noob you're talking about has a year of watching the blue bar before getting skilled enough to avoid being blown up all the time. Another year if he wants to start manufacturing. And another if he decides to do missions. And so on... You aren't doing anything that every player before you didn't. In fact you're doing it faster since you start off with Max learning skills to begin with giving you an extra 11 in attributes that older players didn't have.
J Kunjeh Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:23:00 - [73] Originally by: Yseri Edited by: Yseri on 07/07/2011 21:02:52 Olleybear, we're not talking about buying everything for money, just SP. Right now the noob you're talking about has a year of watching the blue bar before getting skilled enough to avoid being blown up all the time. Another year if he wants to start manufacturing. And another if he decides to do missions. And so on... If you're not playing the game and having a blast while you're skill training, you're doing it wrong. ~Gnosis~
Di Mulle	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. If you are not troll, then you fail at primitive math so horribly... did they ever teach that in schools nowadays ? You pay for the game time. Not for SP. You paid 200 USD without even starting playing. That is 200 USD out of the thin air for CCP on top of what seller paid while training.
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:43:00 - [75] Originally by: Yseri Edited by: Yseri on 07/07/2011 21:02:52 Olleybear, we're not talking about buying everything for money, just SP. Yes, I do know that. I simply see where things will lead once something like buying SP actually comes into the game. As someone else has already posted, if a person is not having fun after an entire year of skilling, they are doing something wrong.
Isky Iskerson rIsky Ventures LLC	Posted - 2011.07.07 21:44:00 - [76] If you are working on a char for years, putting up with the excruciating skill training times, making isk to buy skills and yadda yadda yadda, then some rich douche signs up, drops a couple hundy and suddenly can do all the things you have been training for AND MORE, well, that's more than this cowboy can bear. People hate the rich enough. To let them buy epic status in a game based on things taking FOREVER to achieve simply destroys the value of your character, and anyone elses' who has done the mind-numbing work of doing it the old fashioned way. FYI 2nd rage quit was over Character Bazaar, which I still think is an awful idea and one reason I never fully got back into EVE as much as I had when first playing. Same with PLEX. EVE lost most of it stature at those 2 points.
Terra Mikael Horizon Dynamics	Posted - 2011.07.07 22:07:00 - [77] Edited by: Terra Mikael on 07/07/2011 22:11:45 OP is an idiot or a troll who fails or pretends to fail at logic and/or critical thinking. Starts thread on a logical fallacy of false equivelency, claiming that purchase price is the same as true value of product. By the same logic buying an apple at the corner store saves me the trouble of growing an orchard. /Thread Signature removed for evading the profanity filter and trolling. Zymurgist
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.07.07 22:17:00 - [78] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I have 53m SP right now. My training cost me $200. It's pretty cool I didnt have to pay $400 and wait two irl years. Now show us how you buy more SP for that character. Remember that we don't trade SP, we trade characters with specific skills trained. The number of SP is not necessarily relevant. Quote: I do understand and agree with what you are saying. I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? You spent $200 for no extra SP. That character already existed. You paid to have that prepackaged collection of trained skills transferred skills account. So far you have not saved any money at all, except when comparing to potential future subscriptions. Then again, maybe you went to Republican accounting school, in which case I am a millionaire, based on maintaining my current employment for the next 20 years. [ Australian players join channel ANZAC ]
Brujo Loco Amarr Brujeria Teologica	Posted - 2011.07.07 23:13:00 - [79] Yes, I want more and more skills for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!! It's the best next thing ever!!! I also want skill points for my CQ couch so it can gain skills in Back Massage I, Hide Nasty Smells I , Cloaking Toilet Lid Cover I and Vibrating Bottom I, yes, I want to pay for everything now!!! So many skill points! It's a bargain! I can trade in the bazaar Couches with skills to 5 instead of waiting for them to slowly skill up, couches sp progression is slouchy. YES MORE SKILL POINTS! I also want skill points in my missiles and turrets and even my cap rechargers! I also want Skill Points AMMO! So I shoot at people with the power of my skillpoints!!!! Your Skill Point Gun II wrecks Nooba Nub for 3.000.456 sp's of DAMAGE! yes yes! More skill points! ---Eve is not dying, its being murdered ----
Monstress	Posted - 2011.07.07 23:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Khamelean I have to say I feel kinda sorry for the OP, You've just bypassed a great deal of the game that is a lot of fun. Playing games is about the experience, trying, failing, learning. It's would be like playing Diablo and starting with a max level character. I dare say you will get bored of Eve very quickly, but you have no one to blame but yourself. Diablo II was awesome! None the less, at 1.2m sp I didnt find the game as fun in comparison to experiencing it now with 53m sp. I doubt there are many out there that create new characters with with the aim to train the new skills so they can experience "play the skill queue" once more. I would encourage anyone who does attempt the above, to play Diablo II while they're logged out waiting for their skills to train. Great game. People create new characters to train EVERY DAY. In buying a 53m SP character, you've more or less just screwed yourself and don't "get" EVE. Congrats, you're a 53m SP character with the experience of a 1.2m SP noob. Welcome to EVE.

Tagera	Posted - 2011.07.07 23:39:00 - [81] Yes...congratulations on your 53mil sp. I'm sure you'll be leaving quite soon once you realize you have no clue as to what you're doing. I bet the character you bought has a horrible history. LOL.
Necrosmith Gallente Chunder Corp	Posted - 2011.07.07 23:43:00 - [82] Anything which causes items to be conjured out of thin air is bad. __________________ Follow me on Twitter Please add the ability to autolink planets in support of PI.
Da Gooch	Posted - 2011.07.08 00:05:00 - [83] Edited by: Da Gooch on 08/07/2011 00:08:27 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. what you fail to realize is buying a character is not the same as buying skill points.. why? not everyone can afford $300 and not many of the people who cant afford that cash are willing to save up for it. Introducing sp's for cash means people can pay on a daily/weekly basis towards there character thus think of it like higher purchase apart from it taking them alittle longer to reaching the 53mil sp char you bought right of the bat, this means not only the people with big wallets can splash out on characters directly like you did but also people who can pump $50 a week into sp's meaning you will have nothing but 80mil+ sp chars flying around in eve after a couple of months, the thoughts of that is pure stupid if you cannot see this then you are blind. It would also over time reduce subscriptions to eve in general as mostly all of us who play eve love the time length of skillpoints, it is what keeps us hooked.. yes id love lvl 5 everything on my main, but if i had it im sure id get very bored very quickly. eve's driving force is its longevity of skillpoint training, people who can buy really expensive chars generally have made a ton of cash over many years in eve so for them they already have a high skilled char and it doesnt kill the game for them to have a second char which just makes things more convenient.
Spc One Gallente	Posted - 2011.07.08 00:09:00 - [84] Because then rich people will have all SP's. So game will be dominated by the rich people. Which sucks, we all should have equal chances of getting better and train skills, even if we're not so rich in real life. ____________________________________________________________________________ Angel 0/A
Aggressive Nutmeg	Posted - 2011.07.08 00:12:00 - [85] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I didn't spend $400 to train my character, I spent $200. If you were not able to buy SP, I would have spent $400 in subscription fees to train my character. Here I am with a character with equal to that, yet I spent $200. You spent $200 and received no game time. You could have spent $200 and received a couple of years of game time - and the valuable experience that brings. You also sacrificed the sense of achievement you get from customising and devloping your own character over time. I think you chose poorly.
Mekkimaru	Posted - 2011.07.08 00:34:00 - [86] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Diablo II was awesome! None the less, at 1.2m sp I didnt find the game as fun in comparison to experiencing it now with 53m sp. I doubt there are many out there that create new characters with with the aim to train the new skills so they can experience "play the skill queue" once more. I would encourage anyone who does attempt the above, to play Diablo II while they're logged out waiting for their skills to train. Great game. the fail is strong in this one....he must come to the darkside of the EvE /endreference anyway, i started like a year ago(and took a long, long break in between). now, i got around 10m SP. It didn't take long, imo, and i gotta say it was **** fun getting to where i am, and its even better knowing theres plenty to come. even though i still see myself as a noob, i gotta say ive learned so much from being in corps and random war decs(hell i even got the last hit on a cynabal while i was in a corp fit tristan, you can imagine the luls). im sure while i might have fun for a month or two if i had bought a X SP character, i know for sure i would not be having as much fun now For those who feel my post is too long(or are currently derping), point of post in a nutshell: being a noob and staying a noob until you are not a noob will be more fun than being a noob in a pro char.
Dark Reignz	Posted - 2011.07.08 00:49:00 - [87] Wut about the people who have sold there chars because they've had enough of the game and just let the isk sit in there wallet................... Wut about those chars already rich in isk hoarding humongoues stock piles and spending little.............. My point it buying a char through Bazzar doesn't guarantee isk is injected back into the market......... Stop using the same old lame excuses for not being able to buy SP's etc.
Malachor Jankor	Posted - 2011.07.08 01:30:00 - [88] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: Mark Sherlock I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. Congrats. Buying a character is still not the same as buying SP. Yeah it is worse. Like a million times worse.
Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.07.08 08:34:00 - [89] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself. But they've already sold it once, so it's not 10 Plex, it's +10 Plex for selling the same thing again. Also, it's 10 Plex TODAY, right now. Not 20 Plex slowly over time.
CAiNE999 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.07.08 08:55:00 - [90] Ok... Ive been a -10 pirate for 2 years, ive PvP`d for about 3, totalling about 5 years in-game. heres what i have to say "but hell if I'm going to be stuck in gimp mode when simply trying to pilot a frigate for months. Luckily you can pay to win the SP game circumventing this. Paying $15 a month to queue up skills for a couple months is foolish. I'm not talking Cruiers or Battleships, I'm talking just Frigs" Clueless... your not stuck in a frigate for months, a month old character can fly a battlecruiser with lvl3/4 in most essential skills. Not to mention your failing to grasp what EvE is about, its not about SP, or training, its about the experiences, places, situations and people you meet, that blend together to make much more than "$15 a month to queue up skills" "it takes months to effectively pilot a ship. Months of logging in, queuing, logging out. I already hit the standings I wanted with NPC corps I choose, there wasn't much less for me to do than practice PvP in losing ships" Clueless again, doesnt take months, if you think a T2 badge means effective, your deluded. PvP? sure its a advantage, but T1 works just as well, as for logging in and out just to queue, your missing 99% of eve, GJ "Which I found out in comparison to other corpmates that its very different with newb skills than when you have some skills leveled up, same ship, same fittings. What I would be losing primary in purchasing SP, is the gimp mode. That and I would have to spend more money if I trained conventionally" There are only so many skills you need to fly X ship aswell as the next guy, for example, a 2-3m sp frig specialist, can likely fly his frig better than a 20 50 or 80m sp char. theres also the fact of hitting lvl5s, 80m sp char in a rifter max skills = 3m sp char max skills in rifter. As for gimp mode? I've made alts who've killed 3 month players, 2 days after creation, so please, shut up. its hard enough convincing new players to PvP without more inexperienced and clueless people spouting trash. "I was actually quite amazed I could do this. Off topic, but I just got owned by some dude in a frig with my T2 fitted BS, so I'm going to buy a titan account. I hear those are so powerful you cant even bring them into low sec" If you lost a T2 BS to a frigate? then this just emphasizes how clueless you are. My advice?, learn to play the game, learn fittings,and keep your head down and shut up about spending rl $$$ to `progress` in EvE, with the MT **storm going around, your dropping the soap in a room of very angry people. so to speak From what you say, it sounds like your one of these people very easily swayed by a MT/P2W market. since you justify spending $200 (over $15 a month for your own char, and your own time/experiences, and failing to see the merits here) on a `non-gimped` char a wise choice, i hardly doubt spending $20 on a ship, $10 on accelerated learning implants etc etc whatever they dare bring in to aurum, would phase you. So GL to you, i doubt your be here for long, and if MT goes as bad as buying ships and stuff to progress, i know trash like you is to blame, ** off to another MMO, and dont defile mine good day sir...

Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2011.07.08 09:02:00 - [91] Originally by: Spc One Because then rich people will have all SP's. So game will be dominated by the rich people. Which sucks, we all should have equal chances of getting better and train skills, even if we're not so rich in real life. But you`re a bad customer if you are poor. Pony up.
Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.07.08 09:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Spc One Because then rich people will have all SP's. So game will be dominated by the rich people. Which sucks, we all should have equal chances of getting better and train skills, even if we're not so rich in real life. I doubt many rich people are sitting around wishing CCP start selling SP before they all suddenly decide to start accounts and fill Eve with toffs. Your proposition seems absurd. I've had the "If I won the lottery" conversation many times and not a single soul has ever said "Buy myself to victory in Eve Online".
NoobPwn	Posted - 2011.07.08 09:37:00 - [93] If you think you can purchase SP then you are simply stupid. There are a limited amount of characters you can buy and they were all trained by someone else. Same to ISK, you don't generate any ISK with your PLEX nor do you get any additional SP out of its natual growth.
Elphaba Dante	Posted - 2011.07.08 10:53:00 - [94] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 07/07/2011 18:16:23 Originally by: Mark Sherlock You would't consider the $200 I personally saved, money CCP will not see, in training time a loss? Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. You didn't train the char, so it cost you $200 to buy it pre-trained. You didn't spend the time training it, it was pre-trained. It already cost RL monies to train that char, you simply added extra monies to the pot for the pre-trained char. Someone already spent time and monies training it. For you to do the same it would take over 2 years. You will now play and still pay, no matter how long you play for. CCP have not lost any revenue, they have in fact gained, because you paid RL monies for a pre-trained char. $200 + $400 = $600 last I checked. Now, please tell me where the lost revenue is. I have 53m SP right now. My training cost me $200. It's pretty cool I didnt have to pay $400 and wait two irl years. $200 and immediate is definitely cheeper and more fun imo. I do understand and agree with what you are saying. I saved $200 in training time, that has to come from somewhere. Any guesses? It came from the guy that originally trained the character. Do I get a cookie?
Louis Elisius	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:07:00 - [95] I wouldnt buy extra skillpoints cuz i wouldnt have enough isk to buy, lets say , a tier 2 ship. Then again, I could buy more plex to get the ship that matches with my paid-for skillpoints and in the end im just paying for everything.... I personally dont mind waiting for skillpoints cuz in the meanwhile im busy making good isk/hour strategies (like doing lvl 2's in a drake fitted with 4 launchers and 2 tractors and 2 salvagers lol). No, I wouldnt buy sp's cuz i would have to buy isk aswell to make them of any use, thus nullifying my gameplay experience
cBOLTSON Star Frontiers	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:13:00 - [96] All this talk of buying sp - has anyone pasued to think that you cannot have the SP without the skillbooks? So Not only are you buying SP you buy skillbooks too? I am totally against this idea. You want to get ahead, then buy a character. There are in game risks that come with it. Buying SP direct is very un eve like.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:16:00 - [97] Originally by: Leah Solo Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself Because you have no clue. Literally. No pun intended. Few years from now if you're still playing you'll know better.
Kiran Minmatar Knights of Azrael	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:16:00 - [98] Time spent playing Eve should never out weigh SP bought for cash. Someone has spent time and money to CCP to make that 60 million sp character. You then buy that character giving more money to CCP to purchase it. Buying skill points via RL cash or AUR should never be implemented into the game, it would unblanace many things within the game like the in game market and possibly sov held space. You would also create a two tier type of player. The ones with the money to buy skill points and the ones that do not. Which means only those that can afford to buy the skill points will be able to compete within the pvp side of the game. And as a side note, I am watching CCP very closely and the first sight of pay to win "gold ammo" that gets into the game I am quitting.
Louis Elisius	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:37:00 - [99] Edited by: Louis Elisius on 08/07/2011 11:38:59 Originally by: Kiran Time spent playing Eve should never out weigh SP bought for cash. Someone has spent time and money to CCP to make that 60 million sp character. You then buy that character giving more money to CCP to purchase it. Buying skill points via RL cash or AUR should never be implemented into the game, it would unblanace many things within the game like the in game market and possibly sov held space. You would also create a two tier type of player. The ones with the money to buy skill points and the ones that do not. Which means only those that can afford to buy the skill points will be able to compete within the pvp side of the game. And as a side note, I am watching CCP very closely and the first sight of pay to win "gold ammo" that gets into the game I am quitting. Then again, blowing somebody out of the sky who is firing sparkly gold $$ ammoes at you will be alot more thrilling ;) This guy on eve radio hoped that ccp would sell racing stripes on ships for $$ cuz those ships would be the ultimate pvp targets hehehe
Bad Messenger draketrain	Posted - 2011.07.08 11:46:00 - [100] NeX Plan for new alliance: 1. create 1000 new alt accounts, 2. buy SP for motherships from nex, 3. blob everything with nyxes. only problem is where to get all those nyxes, so CCP bring nyxes to NEX please.

Le Cardinal Spricer Raiden.	Posted - 2011.07.08 12:01:00 - [101] Maybe said before, but OP lack an understanding of this game on so many levels. The has another aspect with the current system you completely fail to realize. Its part of the charm that eve has to offer. Its supposed to be hard work in order for it to be worth something to you. Like finally getting BS 5 or finally reaching high enough skills to train t2 guns. That feeling of YES! finally! is part of what makes eve what it is today. I can recall alot of those moments. Its also a part of learning the ropes. Getting to understand what eve is about. Facing challenges in pvp, facing challenges in pve etc etc. If ccp take that away eve will end up being space counterstrike online. And they will also make an eve where wealthy kids get an easy way up. You could say that applies to plex as well, but as so many ppl have pointed out before; Someone already trained that char in advance and the isk goes back into the market. Also speaking for myself id feel pretty gutted about it. Ive spent years training this char. Ive spent the cash and theres never been an easy way to build it how it is today. I have alts that i can sell with little affection value, but this char sticks with me to the end. Would i like someone to be able to accomplish that in a week of gameplay because he/she has a fat wallet in rl. Hell no. You could say that my kind of gameplay doesnt apply to you and your perfectly right, but remember theres a reason that players stick around for years. Part of it is the skillpoint system. If you truly want a feeling of how eve is like you should take the time to build an identity from the bottom. But be warned if you do. Its quite addictive.
Neodell Amarr BradNett Reloaded	Posted - 2011.07.08 12:31:00 - [102] Edited by: Neodell on 08/07/2011 12:32:28 Quote from OP I started playing eve four weeks ago And you have a character with 53 million skill points? Anyway. The reason I don't think CCP or the older community would like buying skill points for money is for a few reasons: 1) How much money do they get per month from people who are training for something they want? Will being able to buy skill points be worth more to CCP then the sub payments? 2) Eve has been advertised since its birth as a slow burning game (I have been playing for 8 years and still have stuff to train) Eve and the older players don't really want to be forced into the 'I want it now!!' players of today. 3) You find a ship you want, buy the skill points, buy the ship where is the hard work in that... where is the slow burn and the wait for the final skill to finish? 4) A 2 week player with lots of money could in theory buy all the skill points in the game... 5) The ISK value of characters would change dramatically, it could go down or it could go through the roof as the 2011 character with 200 million skill points tries to get back the money they invested. 6) Who puts a value on skill points? For me I train 2,700 per hour so in a 31 day month I train 2,008,800 does that mean 2 million skill points should be worth Ç14.99 ? or more? I personally wouldn't be happy to see cash for skills. It has taken a lot of my time and money (Ç14.99 per month for 8 years times by 2 accounts) to get to where I am and who would want to be able to do everything in game but not have a clue how to use it?
Lene Austrene	Posted - 2011.07.08 12:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. Apathy my friend. I'm no expert. Maybe the fuss is about people that have invested years of their time into Eve. When the going got tough, maybe they held on by clinging to CCPs promises of a better and improved game, in which balance and stability would be the key focuses. You know. Loyality and lots of money in exchange for a little consideration. Personally I'm not bothered with the new changes, but then again I've been abscent from the game for quite some time, and don't have the disadvantage of things I could have said and done differently in the back of my mind. I find it best to blend in with the crowd and act oblivious, so I can swoop in and add a comment here and there to prove how normal and well informed I am. This also has the effect of getting popular trends accepted, and maintaining them until something new and shiny comes along.
I'thari Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.08 12:57:00 - [104] Edited by: I''thari on 08/07/2011 12:57:05 Originally by: stoicfaux Sounds like there's a potential market for Starter SP Packages for New Characters. Oh, so that was the real reason behind removing starter skills from new characters?
Gallion Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:01:00 - [105] this is how I see it and how many other may agree to it. SP is earned through dedication to the game, by NOT earning your dedication & Time it just says your not willing to PLAY the way this game was built.
Brainless Bimbo Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:05:00 - [106] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Personally, I found that if I intended to play the game for over a year, I would have been a sucker to not purchase SP, not even considering its more expensive to train yourself. OK, so your the (expletives deleted) type CCP are trying to attract for short term cashflow with their dumbed down version of eve because quite frankly to be brutally honest your type have only a limited application of your alleged intelligence. You may not realise that people used to start this game with the full knowledge that its a game that takes years to get into, but fun was available even at low levels early on if they had a brain and could use it. No **** sherlock, your shallowness is showing, and yeah you will never get it. /rant
Jebidus Skari Comply Or Die	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:27:00 - [107] so you think me spending 8 years of TIME AND MONEY is fair of you can just buy a months training just like that? im fine with it, if the recompense me with 50% more sp or isk so then i can buy more sp
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:46:00 - [108] Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. "I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk" Well he just said he did.
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:54:00 - [109] So OP you clearly haven't thought about the way buying instant SP would break the game. Yes and before you answer, 'but, but I purchased a 53mil SP character from the Bazaar', have a long hard think about what the difference is. I may be fairly new to this game, but even I can see the ramifications of getting instanst SP. And here I was believing the hype that intelligent people played this game. An MMO and the 'I want it now' crowd, they just don't fit together. Square block, meet round hole.
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.08 13:59:00 - [110] Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos So OP you clearly haven't thought about the way buying instant SP would break the game. Yes and before you answer, 'but, but I purchased a 53mil SP character from the Bazaar', have a long hard think about what the difference is. I may be fairly new to this game, but even I can see the ramifications of getting instanst SP. And here I was believing the hype that intelligent people played this game. An MMO and the 'I want it now' crowd, they just don't fit together. Square block, meet round hole. He wanted instant gratification, he got it. Your PLEX defense argument is invalid. HE GOT IT INSTANTLY. WHO CARES HOW HE DID??? HE PAID FOR SP AND GOT IT. PUT THAT IN YOUR RMT MIND.

White Tree	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:03:00 - [111] So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious.
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:08:00 - [112] Originally by: Maverick2011 Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos So OP you clearly haven't thought about the way buying instant SP would break the game. Yes and before you answer, 'but, but I purchased a 53mil SP character from the Bazaar', have a long hard think about what the difference is. I may be fairly new to this game, but even I can see the ramifications of getting instanst SP. And here I was believing the hype that intelligent people played this game. An MMO and the 'I want it now' crowd, they just don't fit together. Square block, meet round hole. He wanted instant gratification, he got it. Your PLEX defense argument is invalid. HE GOT IT INSTANTLY. WHO CARES HOW HE DID??? HE PAID FOR SP AND GOT IT. PUT THAT IN YOUR RMT MIND. Oh wow, hammering the keyboard before you have engaged your brain. I could go into a lengthy discussion about why buying instant SP for any character isn't a good idea for the game .... but you know what? it would be totally wasted on you.
StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:08:00 - [113] Originally by: Ranger64511 Because if you buy SP you can be in any ship that you want right away. So we will have one, two day old pilots that can fly titans and Super Capital ships. LOL, I can do that anyway. GTC's > ISK > Titan Pilot on my first day if I please. Quote: This is silly and would throw off the game. Throw it off for who? Quote: Skill training is one of the things that I enjoy about EVE. Good for you, some people hate it, they just wanna play. Quote: We all started out as a new pilot and worked our way up to where we are today. No WE didn't. I already did the GTC's > ISK > Buy experienced pilot. And I am doing quite well in game. Quote: How fair also would it be for a 2003 or even a 2004 player? Life isn't fair. Quote: They spent years training and now a new 2011 pilot can fly the same things with the same amount of skills. Yep, it's been happening for years. GTC's > ISK > Experienced pilot. Quote: Basically it comes down to a balance in the game and if SP is bought then it will through the balance out the window. Again, how will it do that exactly?
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:10:00 - [114] Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. Its not a matter if its ok or not. it exists already with some camouflage that confounds the minds of idiots. But its there already. PLEX is both RMT and instant gratification that people loathe here. But of course, since its allowed they use it without ever thinking twice. Still defeats any sort of argument against pay to win. PLEX must be the reason CCP felt so confident about introducing MT to game. They knew players embraced that already through PLEX even if indirectly.
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:20:00 - [115] All I see in this thread is people calling the OP names. Clueless, stupid, troll, etc all the same crap simply because they don't agree with what he wants to do. And a whole lot of melodramatic "what if's" and "this is what will happen" stupidity. SP sales is coming, you'll see. It's only a matter of time.... You'll see....
Jebidus Skari Comply Or Die	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:23:00 - [116] Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. I dont believe you can compare the both in the same way. Buying a char is getting another character, that may not be quite as specced as you like, plus you have to spend a few billion and then have a spare slot yada yada Buying SP will be alot cheaper asyour buying small chunks of SP, and your enhancing your own char. I want to know what CCP are going to do for all the players that have been playing for years and spend years training..
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:24:00 - [117] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 08/07/2011 14:24:16 Originally by: Maverick2011 Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. Its not a matter if its ok or not. it exists already with some camouflage that confounds the minds of idiots. But its there already. PLEX is both RMT and instant gratification that people loathe here. But of course, since its allowed they use it without ever thinking twice. Still defeats any sort of argument against pay to win. PLEX must be the reason CCP felt so confident about introducing MT to game. They knew players embraced that already through PLEX even if indirectly. You are an idiot. It has been spelled out in excruciating detail how the character bazaar is not the same as buying SP for cash. If you still fail to understand then it's not a problem with the arguments but with your ability to process information. Just how much is CCP paying you people to try and push this nonsense anyway? This looks for all the world like a PR campaign to me. Well it won't work, You can claim that selling a plex for isk and using that isk to buy a character from the bazaar is the same as buying SP directly from SP until the sun burns out and it won't make that argument right. The point remains that under the current system no game mechanics are by passed and all the SP and ISK involved are generated over time by normal game play. Selling SP directly for cash does bypass said game play/ Because in one case nothing is added into the game world that wasn't already there and in the other something is. And that's a world of difference.
Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:29:00 - [118] Edited by: Maverick2011 on 08/07/2011 14:33:10 Originally by: Skex Relbore Edited by: Skex Relbore on 08/07/2011 14:24:16 Originally by: Maverick2011 Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. Its not a matter if its ok or not. it exists already with some camouflage that confounds the minds of idiots. But its there already. PLEX is both RMT and instant gratification that people loathe here. But of course, since its allowed they use it without ever thinking twice. Still defeats any sort of argument against pay to win. PLEX must be the reason CCP felt so confident about introducing MT to game. They knew players embraced that already through PLEX even if indirectly. You are an idiot. It has been spelled out in excruciating detail how the character bazaar is not the same as buying SP for cash. If you still fail to understand then it's not a problem with the arguments but with your ability to process information. Just how much is CCP paying you people to try and push this nonsense anyway? This looks for all the world like a PR campaign to me. Well it won't work, You can claim that selling a plex for isk and using that isk to buy a character from the bazaar is the same as buying SP directly from SP until the sun burns out and it won't make that argument right. The point remains that under the current system no game mechanics are by passed and all the SP and ISK involved are generated over time by normal game play. Selling SP directly for cash does bypass said game play/ Because in one case nothing is added into the game world that wasn't already there and in the other something is. And that's a world of difference. Who gives a ** of your **** world of difference, learn to read: He bought PLEX He sold for ISK He bought SP with ISK You cant understand three lines, you are an idiot, go back to your delusional world of truth while facts dominate the game. A newbie starting with 53million sp. That's what happened. The name of the character, the reputation its all imbecile arguments as he can stay in a NPC corp and solo play using that to boost other accounts fast. If you don't like it whatever. He just did it against you liking or not.
StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:30:00 - [119] Originally by: Skex Relbore Just how much is CCP paying you people to try and push this nonsense anyway? Geez that line is getting lame already. So is the "You must be a CCP alt" Think up some new insults. Feel free to use them on me. But I said new, not the same old Troll, Idiot, Clueless, etc, etc...
Simetraz	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:34:00 - [120] Today we have Alliance - today we are flying Amarr T2 fitted BS's One month later, okay Now we fly Minmatar fitted BS's Nothing incredible there you train accordingly for each ship and the alliances know it takes time to complete. Purchase SP Alliance rule - All players will be max trained on the current Alliance ships and fits, purchase SP's if you have to there will be no excuses. Anyone who doesn't meet the requirements will be kicked. I know some will say that no alliance would do that. Actually I can think of several Large alliances that could and would to the point of purchasing the SP's for their players. SO now, not only can large alliances purchase all the ships they want, now they can instantly train all there members. And for those that can't afford it , well........ There is no up side to purchasing SP

StuRyan	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:36:00 - [121] Originally by: Iancasnim It may seem like you bought SP, but in fact you only bought the time that someone else put into a character. That character came from another player. That player now has ISK that he can recylce into the economy. Now, imagine for a moment you bought that 53 mil SP from the NEX. You insert $$$ and get SP that you then apply to skills as you desire. That $$$ didn't go into ISK. That $$$ didn't go to another player. The SP was simply injected into the game world through an exchange that involved funds from outside of EvE. I'm not an economist, but I know very well that this is not a good move for the EvE economy. So I agree with Spank: It's not the same. I used to think so until someone kindly pointed out: You can't buy SP if there are no characters to buy. TBH this right here. Think of a situation where one person uses gold ammo, or a gold ship - in most cases it will win pvp. Who wins if a fleet of snotty nose rich kids who bought gold ships from the store engages a normal bunch of guys who play for fun???? CCP, why i hear you say becuase at least one bought ship will go pop and then they need another $50 to buy a new again. Now who wins if all ships are paid for? CCP....Everyway i look at the whole nex thing i see CCP thinking about their staff parties at Christmas rather than their customers who today are being squeezed ever so much to get by with the current economic climate.
malcovas Henderson	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:36:00 - [122] All I see is a "instant gratification, Where's my free EPIX!!!!!!one one!!11 one!" Wow player
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:42:00 - [123] Originally by: Simetraz Today we have Alliance - today we are flying Amarr T2 fitted BS's One month later, okay Now we fly Minmatar fitted BS's Nothing incredible there you train accordingly for each ship and the alliances know it takes time to complete. Purchase SP Alliance rule - All players will be max trained on the current Alliance ships and fits, purchase SP's if you have to there will be no excuses. Anyone who doesn't meet the requirements will be kicked. I know some will say that no alliance would do that. Actually I can think of several Large alliances that could and would to the point of purchasing the SP's for their players. SO now, not only can large alliances purchase all the ships they want, now they can instantly train all there members. And for those that can't afford it , well........ There is no up side to purchasing SP Applause. Exactly, not that hard to work out is it. Between this and Skex Relbore's answer is why SP should never be instantly available.
fukier Handsome Millionaire Playboys	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:48:00 - [124] ITS SIMPLE SELLING SP FOR CASH IS GIVING AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE TO PLAYERS... example: a new ship and skill tree come out... today you have to train up for the ship which takes time... if you sell sp for cash then i can just buy the 2 million sp and get the skill up fo V on day 1... this is cheep and takes away from the epicness of the game...
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.07.08 14:56:00 - [125] Only a matter of time.... You'll see...
Morganta	Posted - 2011.07.08 15:01:00 - [126] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Edited by: Mark Sherlock on 07/07/2011 15:31:02 Originally by: Lady Spank Buying a character is not the same as buying SP. I just got a 53m SP character for under $300. Seems like I purchased it. It worked out to where I was saving $180 USD by purchasing SP instead of training it myself and paying the monthly fee over the course of years. and this is why selling SP is fail fat lot of good a 53mil sp toon does for you if nobody subs to the game
Bo Tosh	Posted - 2011.07.08 15:05:00 - [127] This game isn't for you OP, it takes time and patience and willingness to learn from mistakes. There is nothing like risking a ship you worked and trained for against the ship of another opponent, putting all that time and effort you spent training and making the ISK on the line makes the encounter mean something. You have worked for nothing with your new character and anything you do with it will mean nothing because you couldn't be bothered to play the game. You might as well be playing some FPS. I should add that I've always hated the idea of PLEX but accept it as a way to combat RMT and the character bazaar is to me just as bad.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.08 15:06:00 - [128] Originally by: Maverick2011 Who gives a ** of your **** world of difference, learn to read: He bought PLEX He sold for ISK He bought SP with ISK You cant understand three lines, you are an idiot, go back to your delusional world of truth while facts dominate the game. A newbie starting with 53million sp. That's what happened. The name of the character, the reputation its all imbecile arguments as he can stay in a NPC corp and solo play using that to boost other accounts fast. If you don't like it whatever. He just did it against you liking or not. Ok lets break it down for you.. He bought a plex true. He sold plex for isk true. He used isk to buy SP... oh wait..NOT TRUE. What he did was that he used that ISK to buy a character, and is stuck with what ever limitations that may be involved in using that character regarding reputation standings etc. that there are ways to use that character that work around said limitation does not remove said limitation. A character that was built with SP purchased and spawned out of a cash shop would not have to work around those disadvantages. It also ignores the fact that it still took someone time to generate those SP through normal game mechanics and using real time, Which means that the supply is limited to what is available on the market which means that the buyer will have to make trade offs and will in general not get the "perfect" character. It also means that when the FOTM changes you won't automatically be able to just go out and grab a character that fits that flavor because the characters on the market will have what ever skills the person building it thought would be useful based on old info. The differences between buying a character and buying SP directly for cash are far from trivial and can not be dismissed by simply mislabeling the steps in the existing process.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.07.08 15:13:00 - [129] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Originally by: Skex Relbore Just how much is CCP paying you people to try and push this nonsense anyway? Geez that line is getting lame already. So is the "You must be a CCP alt" Think up some new insults. Feel free to use them on me. But I said new, not the same old Troll, Idiot, Clueless, etc, etc... Old or not this looks like a PR campaign to me. Multiple new characters with little to no in game history pushing an idea that just happens to coincide with CCP's desire to push/defend their cash shop. This is a softening up campaign imo. People paid to pass misleading nonsense to desensitize the games population to an an unpopular idea and make it palpable. Undoubtedly there are some misguided idiots in here who genuinely buy into this nonsense but equally undoubtedly are the paid shills pushing this crap as their job.
Eru GoEller	Posted - 2011.07.08 15:34:00 - [130] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Mag's Originally by: Mark Sherlock Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. How is it lost revenue? The subscription (PLEX) time spent originally to train the character does not convert equally to the plex needed to purchase the same amount of SP. ie It took 10 Plex to purchase the isk, to purchase the SP. It would have taken 20 Plex in subscription time to train it myself.[/quote] "This is not considering that they lose an EQUAL amount of training time as well, my training time in subscription fees. This is why many subscription services ban selling characters. Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained." Bolded the parts for you, where is the lost revenue? Your 20 plex time value which you never spent, was done by the player/s that owned the character you bought. And now you bought it for the sum of 10 more plexes which adds up to 30 plexe, which looks likes CCP has made a small profit for that character which was transfered to you. And that's not even counting the 20$/Ç or the PLEX fee for the actual transfer.

StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.07.08 16:17:00 - [131] Originally by: Skex Relbore This is a softening up campaign imo. People paid to pass misleading nonsense to desensitize the games population to an an unpopular idea and make it palpable. Well since only a very small part of the community actually reads the forums I really doubt that. Quote: Undoubtedly there are some misguided idiots in here who genuinely buy into this nonsense... Misguided? Idiots? Nonsense? All because you don't agree with them...
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.08 17:57:00 - [132] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Quote: Undoubtedly there are some misguided idiots in here who genuinely buy into this nonsense... Misguided? Idiots? Nonsense? All because you don't agree with them... No, because it's idiotic misguided nonsense.
Blacksquirrel	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:15:00 - [133] You really dropped 300 on a new character for a video game? I'd have thought gambling a better use of that money.
flummox	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:23:00 - [134] Originally by: J Kunjeh Edited by: J Kunjeh on 07/07/2011 15:28:24 I'm personally opposed to buying SP's directly; they should be earned over time. But I'm not opposed to the possibility of some kind of implant, or item purchased using AUR that would speed up training time (on the order of 25-30% max, not double) for a non-permanent duration of time (a week?). this is "buying SP with RLM/ISK"
D'Leh Mannuck	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:25:00 - [135] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Honeslty, I cant think of a benefit I earn in training the account to 53m myself thats worth months of gimp mode and costing me hundreds more in subscription fees. To name one benefit: You would actually know how to use those SP to generate the max out of your character. Now your nothing more than an infant with en expensive rattler.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:30:00 - [136] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Skex Relbore You are bypassing that portion of the game when you buy a character but at least when you do it through the bazaar someone had to make those choices and you are stuck with the consequences of those choices. Luckily there are nice wiki articles covering such aspects and what to watch out for. indeed, and you can get a post-grad on quantum mechanics only by reading wikipedia! a noob with a 53mil SP character is still a noob, no matter how many wikis you read. I will be eagerly awaiting for you losing an officer-fit tengu in losec.
Zyress	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:34:00 - [137] Actually since the only reason I can think of to buy an old character is for their skill points, I have to agree, there isn't much difference between buying SP and buying an old charcter.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:35:00 - [138] To be honest i would have nothing against the sale of sp, so long as it had limits. Those would be a time constraint how often you can purchase the sp (say 5 mil sp a month or something) so it didn't mess up the learning process and progression too much, and a hard cap at the sort of level player who trained non stop since 2003 has. It would still take people 3 years to catch up with the complete vets and they could not overtake them through rl purchase. It would be done through plex so people could buy the service with isk as well. I say this as someone who would rather there was no rl money influence in game at all, but as the op rightly says you can already simply buy plex, sell for isk, buy character, so ccp already let the genie out of the bottle there long ago.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:38:00 - [139] Originally by: Zyress Actually since the only reason I can think of to buy an old character is for their skill points, I have to agree, there isn't much difference between buying SP and buying an old charcter. think of a future where every corp will demand maxed out skills even from day 1 noobs. this doesn't happen with character transfer. this could happen with SP purchase.
Torothanax	Posted - 2011.07.08 18:50:00 - [140] If you can affect training directly with cash, Eve is done. Eve was never meant to be dual boxed, but how do you stop it? Look at all the mechanics that force multi player interaction. Mechanics that get bypassed by alts. They won't drop the mechanics though because multi-account players pay more. Characters were never meant to be bought and sold, but to counter act 3rd party sales they allowed it for isk. You were never meant to be able to buy isk, but to counter 3rd party sales, they added plex. None of these were particularly good for the game, but there weren't many other options. The original idea of eve was that your real life wallet has no effect in game. Yeah that went out the window to a degree along time ago. Look how far the game has slid from that ideal over the years. Just because people can buy SOME small advantage in game with cash doesn't mean the whole game needs to go that way. They've done an ok job of mitigating the damage. It'd be nice if they got on bots, RMT, and 3rd party character sales harder. They certainly don't need to encourage any more slide though. At least the working man can still compete with people that can be logged in 23/7. If you change skill training you jack that up as well. Quit trying to change the fundamentals that Eve was built upon. Just because there are some exceptions, loopholes, and flaws, doesn't mean they scrap the whole system. If you devalue the skill system or the market, you destroy the games integrity. You'd lose a huge chunk of player base. If you feel you need to buy a head start, then Eve isn't the game for you. People without patience or long term goals won't stick around anyway.

Adelain Niska Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.07.08 19:20:00 - [141] Originally by: Jebidus Skari is fair Eve isn't fair.
P42ALPHA Gallente nul-li-fy Usurper.	Posted - 2011.07.08 19:30:00 - [142] PPL with argue it either way, for the sake of intenet arguments. When it comes down to it. Any of us, if we want can spend real money to buy anything we want in the game. Adding sp to the Nex market will not change much, other then some ppl that train toons just to sell. I would not buy either one, but If some person wants to fly a 500mill ship with 52mill sp, and not know a thing about it. That is there choice. Adding sp the the nex will not change anything for the average player, just the alt farmers that sell there characters. And in this thread they have clearly put them selves out for all to see. Look at the amount of plex on the market, it is clear many many players p2(try to)w already. This boat sailed along time ago, just took the cry babies ages to catch up...lawl
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.08 19:37:00 - [143] Which current character in the game has the most skill points? That would no longer mean anything.
Torothanax	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:12:00 - [144] Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos So OP you clearly haven't thought about the way buying instant SP would break the game. Yes and before you answer, 'but, but I purchased a 53mil SP character from the Bazaar', have a long hard think about what the difference is. I may be fairly new to this game, but even I can see the ramifications of getting instanst SP. And here I was believing the hype that intelligent people played this game. An MMO and the 'I want it now' crowd, they just don't fit together. Square block, meet round hole. Originally by: Maverick2011 He wanted instant gratification, he got it. Your PLEX defense argument is invalid. HE GOT IT INSTANTLY. WHO CARES HOW HE DID??? HE PAID FOR SP AND GOT IT. PUT THAT IN YOUR RMT MIND. You know, that logic can go the other way too. Since buying characters is clearly the same as buying SP, we should just ban character sales. I completely agree. I've always thought along these lines.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:29:00 - [145] If buying a character is the same as buying SP, that would imply that my character ends up with more SP after the transaction.
Veryez	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:40:00 - [146] Edited by: Veryez on 08/07/2011 20:43:02 Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. They are not the same, and I am against buying sp for a few reasons. 1) The person who buys SP will not be playing EvE in three years. He/she will quickly become unhappy as new/wanted skills take weeks to train. By buying SP they have already shown they don't have the patience required to train long skills. Therefore they will have to buy more and more. 2) Buying skills will become the defacto standard in the game as people need to 'keep up' thus in addition to our monthly cost of playing EvE, we will be forced to make purchases in the Nex store. 3) The person who lacks patience is not someone I'd trust flying along side me. Are they willing to set up a logistics chain? Gate Camp? Wait possibly hours before the jump command is given? Maybe if they had flown along side me for years, but we know that won't happen. Sure there may be exceptions, but the majority won't. To the OP, if you're here in three years let us know how great that character was.
The R00k	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:42:00 - [147] why should I have paid subs and had to wait years for **** people can get in 5 min in future. Instant gratification will kill this game.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.08 20:56:00 - [148] Quote: Why are some people against purchasing SP? Not some, most. Because it's not a good idea. It creates a pay to win model that also devalues all other skill achevements in the game, reducing the value of everyones character both in the bazaar and in game. Imagine having educated yourself over a lifetime and then having put in many years of experiance doing a job... Along comes snot nose brat, Siverspoon, who paid for his diploma online after cramming for tests over a period of 9 months...and now he wants to take your job. fairness... ruin of a game system we all thought was pretty neat when we signed on... SP for money is bad!
Elyssa Polaris	Posted - 2011.07.08 21:58:00 - [149] Its pretty obvious CCP are (not so) subtley testing the waters for this concept through the recent number of threads with rather eloquent authors arguing in favour of cash for SP Ill stick my neck out and predict a service along these lines will be implemented in the next 18 months. Now I started playing Eve early 2006, though I've not been active for all that time. I've seen a lot of comings and goings and drama along the way, so heres my two cents. The real objection to this idea among "vets" seems to boil down to.. "WAAAAA.. we are THE ELITE.. we will not accept being threatened up on our pedestal by the NOOBS!!" Now I accept that real vets i.e. those who have been playing since 2003/04 - are who kept CCP above water during the early days after a shaky release. The problem is the players who consider themselves "vets" or the "elite" these days are labouring under the misconception that CCP NOW are only kept going by them and that Eve would be nothing without them.. But thats where they are wrong.. The fact is that the revenue being brought in by the current player base is simply not enough for CCP to do the things they want to do. I know a lot of ppl will argue this is because of DUST or WoD and maybe they have a point. But I think the real issue is the fact that the longer a person plays eve the less likely they are to actually pay any hard currency for their subscription. The PLEX system is pretty unique among MMOs I've played and Im not knocking it at all - but the issue remains that the current player base are not paying the bills for CCP. CCP need a way to get new players in the door and crucially for them to continue paying for a subscription after the first few months (or less) SP alone is not the main issue regarding new player retention, to me that would be actually connecting with the player base. Established corps tend to be overly paranoid and elitist in their attitudes- they all want full T2 fits and this and that SP requirement. Some of this stuff can take up to a year to train, so what are new players supposed to do until they have the skills? I know similar arguments have been shot down here before. But at the end of the day talk is cheap. The vast majority of ppl will choose not to play rather than have to wait 6 months before they can join a decent corp.. But thats another story Eve vets need to ask themselves if they prefer keeping their little circle jerk going and throwing spanners in the works when CCP tries to take the game forward. Or risking losing everything and their years or effort meaning nothing when CCP go under.. I suspect those vets who vote with their feet and leave when this feature is implemented will be missed slightly less than they like to think Bottom Line. This game needs a shot in the arm..
Anon Magnus	Posted - 2011.07.08 22:16:00 - [150] Edited by: Anon Magnus on 08/07/2011 22:17:28 Originally by: Elyssa Polaris Its pretty obvious CCP are (not so) subtley testing the waters for this concept through the recent number of threads with rather eloquent authors arguing in favour of cash for SP Ill stick my neck out and predict a service along these lines will be implemented in the next 18 months. Now I started playing Eve early 2006, though I've not been active for all that time. I've seen a lot of comings and goings and drama along the way, so heres my two cents. The real objection to this idea among "vets" seems to boil down to.. "WAAAAA.. we are THE ELITE.. we will not accept being threatened up on our pedestal by the NOOBS!!" Now I accept that real vets i.e. those who have been playing since 2003/04 - are who kept CCP above water during the early days after a shaky release. The problem is the players who consider themselves "vets" or the "elite" these days are labouring under the misconception that CCP NOW are only kept going by them and that Eve would be nothing without them.. But thats where they are wrong.. The fact is that the revenue being brought in by the current player base is simply not enough for CCP to do the things they want to do. I know a lot of ppl will argue this is because of DUST or WoD and maybe they have a point. But I think the real issue is the fact that the longer a person plays eve the less likely they are to actually pay any hard currency for their subscription. The PLEX system is pretty unique among MMOs I've played and Im not knocking it at all - but the issue remains that the current player base are not paying the bills for CCP. CCP need a way to get new players in the door and crucially for them to continue paying for a subscription after the first few months (or less) SP alone is not the main issue regarding new player retention, to me that would be actually connecting with the player base. Established corps tend to be overly paranoid and elitist in their attitudes- they all want full T2 fits and this and that SP requirement. Some of this stuff can take up to a year to train, so what are new players supposed to do until they have the skills? I know similar arguments have been shot down here before. But at the end of the day talk is cheap. The vast majority of ppl will choose not to play rather than have to wait 6 months before they can join a decent corp.. But thats another story Eve vets need to ask themselves if they prefer keeping their little circle jerk going and throwing spanners in the works when CCP tries to take the game forward. Or risking losing everything and their years or effort meaning nothing when CCP go under.. I suspect those vets who vote with their feet and leave when this feature is implemented will be missed slightly less than they like to think Bottom Line. This game needs a shot in the arm.. If that's your take on the problem, then why not suggest or support the idea speeding up skill training, providing a starting SP package, or some other method of helping players get involved sooner in order to retain subscriptions within the current game framework rather than backing a new cash shop expense that falls outside of the proposed vanity items only model CCP says they will maintain for now?

CAiNE999 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.07.09 02:23:00 - [151] Edited by: CAiNE999 on 09/07/2011 02:29:53 Edited by: CAiNE999 on 09/07/2011 02:27:05 The real objection to this idea among "vets" seems to boil down to.. "WAAAAA.. we are THE ELITE.. we will not accept being threatened up on our pedestal by the NOOBS!! ... The problem is the players who consider themselves "vets" or the "elite" these days are labouring under the misconception that CCP NOW are only kept going by them and that Eve would be nothing without them.. But thats where they are wrong.. Er...? What is this trash, are you attempting to villainize EvE players who are several years old here? i dont know where your getting these reported misconceptions from, whats happening is people are getting ***ed off because, after spending months/years of work, training their characters, paying their subscriptions, developing further into the game, are potentially being faced by people who could (in theory if MT goes this way) buy thier way up into the tens of millions of SP. Unfairly catching them up, why? because they wave their credit card around like a shopaholic on crack. If you fail to see why this makes people angry, then sure..... totally on track here, damn those evil loyal EvE "vet/elite" fans, gotta beat the n00b`s down, yeah F n00b`s. Im too pr0 for any n00b to compete with me, Totally the reason their getting riled up. Established corps tend to be overly paranoid and elitist in their attitudes- they all want full T2 fits and this and that SP requirement. Utter bull... what are these "Established Corps" how many of them are there? how many corps enforce full T2 fits and SP? the ones that do are a minority, and usually the big names who have a rep to keep up, there are still lots of large and "established" corps welcome that new players, especially new pvpers, and industralists Some of this stuff can take up to a year to train, so what are new players supposed to do until they have the skills? T2 takes a upto a year to train, so what 8-9 months+ to get a couple lvl 5 skill? (most t2 gear is lvl 4 now) Right.... med/Large X gun 5 is what 15-30days, full general gunnery to 4, support to 3/4, t2 tank and fitting mods, yup, definately filling that 8 or so months up. my 5m sp alt cant possibly have a t2 fit cyclone, oh no... Cant do anything with t2 mods you know, just have to sit on your a$$ and twiddling your thumbs right? Please stop spreading your deluded bull on the forums, you dont NEED t2 for jack, its a stupid and idiotic misconception, i pity the players who are brainwashed into thinking "must be t2, must be t2 to pvp, must be t2 to pve, cant go low-sec without my t2... worthless without my t2" I know similar arguments have been shot down here before. cough* i wonder why But at the end of the day talk is cheap. The vast majority of ppl will choose not to play rather than have to wait 6 months before they can join a decent corp.. But thats another story 6 months to join a decent corp? right, nice completely blown out of proportion analysis there. Definately cant try making friends/making thier own corp/joining pub corp chats to hang out. or the other many ways of finding a nice corp (like the new corp finder system) Eve vets need to ask themselves if they prefer keeping their little circle jerk going and throwing spanners in the works when CCP tries to take the game forward. Or risking losing everything and their years or effort meaning nothing when CCP go under.. Yup more EvE "vet" hate.... sure, we all sit around sucking each other off over how good we are pwning n00b`s, because its not like we help educate, encourage and enrich their gaming experience, like the dozens of players i give advice and pep talks to after blowing them up when i was a -10, or making my own corps. cant forget your analysis, must beat n00b`s down
CAiNE999 Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.07.09 02:25:00 - [152] Edited by: CAiNE999 on 09/07/2011 02:30:41 Edited by: CAiNE999 on 09/07/2011 02:27:56 If this is pushing EvE forward? Id rather this game die, with fond memories, than watch it suffer, fall from grace, bleeding players from MT and p2w tards. I suspect those vets who vote with their feet and leave when this feature is implemented will be missed slightly less than they like to think Yeah, loyal fans leaving the game in droves over MT,gg Honestly, where do you people crawl up from? spouting crap, full of misconceptions, poor experience, stupidly exaggerated opinions, and utter failure of basic logic, to think, im usually pretty happy and easy going... Originally by: Elyssa Polaris, Qoutes in bold, if anyones wondering who im talking to
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.07.09 02:50:00 - [153] Quote: Originally by: Elyssa Polaris, Qoutes in bold, if anyones wondering who im talking to Jesus, what is wrong with you?
Caliph Muhammed Caldari Caldari Naval Criminal Investigative Service	Posted - 2011.07.09 03:32:00 - [154] Originally by: Elyssa Polaris Its pretty obvious CCP are (not so) subtley testing the waters for this concept through the recent number of threads with rather eloquent authors arguing in favour of cash for SP Ill stick my neck out and predict a service along these lines will be implemented in the next 18 months. Now I started playing Eve early 2006, though I've not been active for all that time. I've seen a lot of comings and goings and drama along the way, so heres my two cents. The real objection to this idea among "vets" seems to boil down to.. "WAAAAA.. we are THE ELITE.. we will not accept being threatened up on our pedestal by the NOOBS!!" Now I accept that real vets i.e. those who have been playing since 2003/04 - are who kept CCP above water during the early days after a shaky release. The problem is the players who consider themselves "vets" or the "elite" these days are labouring under the misconception that CCP NOW are only kept going by them and that Eve would be nothing without them.. But thats where they are wrong.. The fact is that the revenue being brought in by the current player base is simply not enough for CCP to do the things they want to do. I know a lot of ppl will argue this is because of DUST or WoD and maybe they have a point. But I think the real issue is the fact that the longer a person plays eve the less likely they are to actually pay any hard currency for their subscription. The PLEX system is pretty unique among MMOs I've played and Im not knocking it at all - but the issue remains that the current player base are not paying the bills for CCP. CCP need a way to get new players in the door and crucially for them to continue paying for a subscription after the first few months (or less) SP alone is not the main issue regarding new player retention, to me that would be actually connecting with the player base. Established corps tend to be overly paranoid and elitist in their attitudes- they all want full T2 fits and this and that SP requirement. Some of this stuff can take up to a year to train, so what are new players supposed to do until they have the skills? I know similar arguments have been shot down here before. But at the end of the day talk is cheap. The vast majority of ppl will choose not to play rather than have to wait 6 months before they can join a decent corp.. But thats another story Eve vets need to ask themselves if they prefer keeping their little circle jerk going and throwing spanners in the works when CCP tries to take the game forward. Or risking losing everything and their years or effort meaning nothing when CCP go under.. I suspect those vets who vote with their feet and leave when this feature is implemented will be missed slightly less than they like to think Bottom Line. This game needs a shot in the arm.. Lawl Psychology. No matter how often you repeat it, no matter how much you want it, it's not going to happen. So enjoy your trolling. Our sides enjoyment comes from the fact no matter how much you repeat this rhetoric in game as it stands you're waiting on your skills. And the tears of the impatient younglings are like sweet nectar. This particular change im not even slightly worried about. Enjoy your Patience Level 5 Training, its worth every second invested and you're going to be enduring it for the rest of your time in EVE. Just wait until you endure a dedicated war dec where you are personally hunted wherever you go. Imagine the ecstasy of knowing someone who will wipe the floor with you will not allow you safety anywhere in the game. The unfathomable suffering and frustration you will experience has a hauntingly & sexually sadistic quality to it. And like skill training in EVE, you are powerless to change your situation.
JitaBUGz TheGreat Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.07.09 03:42:00 - [155] Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. Get out of these forums u sell out!! Surprised you have not had a hissy fit in this thread about how hard you worked on your free vacation to Iceland, glad to see you have finaly climbed down from that cross you nailed yourself too.
VAsh Ozuwara	Posted - 2011.07.09 03:54:00 - [156] hi i just start plaing yesterday. how does i pilot titan to hisec pls
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.07.09 07:59:00 - [157] Originally by: Elyssa Polaris lol WTF post..... Nice troll bro.
Potato IQ	Posted - 2011.07.09 10:45:00 - [158] Player A starts a pilot and does nothing but train skills for 3 years to gain 53m SP û 36 PLEX Player B starts a pilot and buys SP @ 1.28m/PLEX (rank 5 skill) to gain 53m SP û 42 PLEX Both decide to sell the character and get the same price. The one who bought the SP has paid more for that privilege. The person that buys either character has no interest in how long it took, or how much is cost, to gain that same level of SP. The benefits to the game as far as isk injection from both selling parties is the same. Both created the same SP, one just took longer than the other. Extreme case for player A, but illustrates how this length of time generation is a stupid argument as they gave nothing to the game in those 3 years Player B keeps character and player C has purchased player A. Having the flexibility that the amount of SP the characters allow, both players could still potentially be bored with the game after the same amount of time. It cost player C much less to find this out, so SP purchase is still a greater financial hit to a game mechanic that exists in character purchase Unclear what the sense of achievement is in being able to drag a skill into the queue and wait it out. They are too long. Making a sweeping time reduction will de-value the character market. There is nothing to suggest that SP purchase would be a flood if introduced. Having the option to gain some lengthy pre-reqÆs is not game breaking, yet offers a value added option to new and old alike A company making changes always p!sses somebody off, usually the old guard that are reluctant to change and just simply donÆt like something they see as unfair because they didnÆt have it in their time. Fine. F*ck off then. Cutting your nose off to spite your face is a very mature attitude if you leave the game. Nothing has fundamentally changed in your gameplay. ItÆs been mentioned countless times that in game knowledge will still be poor regardless of the SP they have, so removing their new ship for them will be a learning exercise that SP does not = win The perceived gulf, and inability to close it for those that see this as a problem, will stop new players coming in. The reality of incredible long skills after a few months will not promote player retention. There are only so many people Eve will attract and the alts must greatly exaggerate the player base number increase. Alts donÆt buy PLEX to sell, so where is your sustained market going to come from? CanÆt wait for the b!tching when players suddenly have to either pay stupid prices for PLEX or pay for subscription from their own pocket ItÆs easy to predict, and it is certainly my hope, that Eve will grow from strength to strength. It is also just as easy to predict stagnation and eventual decline. Incarna may eventually open the door to another bread of player to the ones that join currently, when it works of course, but the skilling system as is will always be a problem. Bemoaning the introduction of SP boosting because you didn't have it? Grow up
Caliph Muhammed Caldari Caldari Naval Criminal Investigative Service	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:26:00 - [159] Originally by: Potato IQ Character bazaar is the same thing! Then no change is needed!
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:27:00 - [160] Originally by: Elyssa Polaris Its pretty obvious CCP are (not so) subtley testing the waters for this concept through the recent number of threads with rather eloquent authors arguing in favour of cash for SP Ill stick my neck out and predict a service along these lines will be implemented in the next 18 months. It's only a matter of time. 6 months, 18 months, 5 years? But it will happen, I have no doubt. Quote: Now I accept that real vets i.e. those who have been playing since 2003/04 - are who kept CCP above water during the early days after a shaky release. The problem is the players who consider themselves "vets" or the "elite" these days are labouring under the misconception that CCP NOW are only kept going by them and that Eve would be nothing without them. Delusional bunch... Quote: The fact is that the revenue being brought in by the current player base is simply not enough for CCP to do the things they want to do. ... but the issue remains that the current player base are not paying the bills for CCP. They need to sell Skill Points

StillBorn CrackBaby	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:35:00 - [161] Originally by: Potato IQ A company making changes always p!sses somebody off, usually the old guard that are reluctant to change and just simply donÆt like something they see as unfair because they didnÆt have it in their time. Fine. *Fck off then.** Cutting your nose off to spite your face is a very mature attitude if you leave the game. Nothing has fundamentally changed in your gameplay. ItÆs been mentioned countless times that in game knowledge will still be poor regardless of the SP they have, so removing their new ship for them will be a learning exercise that SP does not = win The perceived gulf, and inability to close it for those that see this as a problem, will stop new players coming in. The reality of incredible long skills after a few months will not promote player retention. There are only so many people Eve will attract and the alts must greatly exaggerate the player base number increase. Alts donÆt buy PLEX to sell, so where is your sustained market going to come from? CanÆt wait for the b!tching when players suddenly have to either pay stupid prices for PLEX or pay for subscription from their own pocket ItÆs easy to predict, and it is certainly my hope, that Eve will grow from strength to strength. It is also just as easy to predict stagnation and eventual decline. Incarna may eventually open the door to another bread of player to the ones that join currently, when it works of course, but the skilling system as is will always be a problem. Bemoaning the introduction of SP boosting because you didn't have it? Grow up Things Change. Life isn't fair. CCP will do what it takes to keep the cash flowing. So a thousand vets quit? So what? Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that?
ninjaholic Gallente House Aratus Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:38:00 - [162] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. You didn't buy SP with ISK. You paid for a character that someone else took the time to train. DUH. SP/hr is what makes Eve stand apart from other MMORPGS. If you weren't an idiot you'd have noticed that.
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:43:00 - [163] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Originally by: Potato IQ A company making changes always p!sses somebody off, usually the old guard that are reluctant to change and just simply donÆt like something they see as unfair because they didnÆt have it in their time. Fine. *Fck off then.** Cutting your nose off to spite your face is a very mature attitude if you leave the game. Nothing has fundamentally changed in your gameplay. ItÆs been mentioned countless times that in game knowledge will still be poor regardless of the SP they have, so removing their new ship for them will be a learning exercise that SP does not = win The perceived gulf, and inability to close it for those that see this as a problem, will stop new players coming in. The reality of incredible long skills after a few months will not promote player retention. There are only so many people Eve will attract and the alts must greatly exaggerate the player base number increase. Alts donÆt buy PLEX to sell, so where is your sustained market going to come from? CanÆt wait for the b!tching when players suddenly have to either pay stupid prices for PLEX or pay for subscription from their own pocket ItÆs easy to predict, and it is certainly my hope, that Eve will grow from strength to strength. It is also just as easy to predict stagnation and eventual decline. Incarna may eventually open the door to another bread of player to the ones that join currently, when it works of course, but the skilling system as is will always be a problem. Bemoaning the introduction of SP boosting because you didn't have it? Grow up Things Change. Life isn't fair. CCP will do what it takes to keep the cash flowing. So a thousand vets quit? So what? Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that? Hate to burst your bubble, but you do realise that with PLEX CCP still makes money. Do you think the PLEX just appeared out of thin air ... somebody paid for it.
ninjaholic Gallente House Aratus Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:51:00 - [164] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Things Change. Life isn't fair. CCP will do what it takes to keep the cash flowing. So a thousand vets quit? So what? Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that? Where do you think PLEX comes from? Someone paid for it. Sold it for ISK. Derp much?
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.07.09 11:58:00 - [165] Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Originally by: Potato IQ A company making changes always p!sses somebody off, usually the old guard that are reluctant to change and just simply donÆt like something they see as unfair because they didnÆt have it in their time. Fine. *Fck off then.** Cutting your nose off to spite your face is a very mature attitude if you leave the game. Nothing has fundamentally changed in your gameplay. ItÆs been mentioned countless times that in game knowledge will still be poor regardless of the SP they have, so removing their new ship for them will be a learning exercise that SP does not = win The perceived gulf, and inability to close it for those that see this as a problem, will stop new players coming in. The reality of incredible long skills after a few months will not promote player retention. There are only so many people Eve will attract and the alts must greatly exaggerate the player base number increase. Alts donÆt buy PLEX to sell, so where is your sustained market going to come from? CanÆt wait for the b!tching when players suddenly have to either pay stupid prices for PLEX or pay for subscription from their own pocket ItÆs easy to predict, and it is certainly my hope, that Eve will grow from strength to strength. It is also just as easy to predict stagnation and eventual decline. Incarna may eventually open the door to another bread of player to the ones that join currently, when it works of course, but the skilling system as is will always be a problem. Bemoaning the introduction of SP boosting because you didn't have it? Grow up Things Change. Life isn't fair. CCP will do what it takes to keep the cash flowing. So a thousand vets quit? So what? Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that? Hate to burst your bubble, but you do realise that with PLEX CCP still makes money. Do you think the PLEX just appeared out of thin air ... somebody paid for it. Of course someone paid for it. But not the whining vet who will quit before paying cash...
ninjaholic Gallente House Aratus Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2011.07.09 12:05:00 - [166] Originally by: Ripley Nostromo Of course someone paid for it. But not the whining vet who will quit before paying cash... And who will buy the ****ing PLEX then? You derpface. I'm one of those whiney 'vets' and I care about Eve's future, not yours. I don't pay with cash, paid with ISK for the last 4 years, and if I quit, who's going to buy the PLEX? The roids? What you think will happen to the PLEX market or are you too short-sighted to see that due to ignorance or disability? Might want to unsub bro, WoW needs you.
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.07.09 12:09:00 - [167] Originally by: ninjaholic Originally by: Ripley Nostromo Of course someone paid for it. But not the whining vet who will quit before paying cash... And who will buy the ****ing PLEX then? You derpface. I'm one of those whiney 'vets' and I care about Eve's future, not yours. I don't pay with cash, paid with ISK for the last 4 years, and if I quit, who's going to buy the PLEX? The roids? What you think will happen to the PLEX market or are you too short-sighted to see that due to ignorance or disability? Might want to unsub bro, WoW needs you. Well I don't care about you either. Nyah Nyah... Suck it up. Things change. SP for sale will happen. Only a matter of time.... You'll see... Unsub, NEVER. It's wayyyy too much fun watching the forum whiners squirm...
saltrock0000	Posted - 2011.07.09 12:18:00 - [168] Right lets get this started, I am not a "Vet" however im not a newby (75milsp) I see no problem what so ever with buying SP for aurum. Eve needs to attract a constant influx of new players to ensure that the game server stays up and running, lets not forget, CCP wernt put here to amuse us geeky people, they are a buisness, and as a buisness have a bottom line and are looking to make money. Ok now put yourself in a new players situation for a moment. You run the tutorial missions, you eventualy start getting a grasp of the game, what you want to do, so you get evemon and WHAAAAAAM 360+ days training for something you want. Now you as a new player, are you going to think "f this fora game of soldiers" or "oh ok yeah ill commit to a new game for a YEAR". Easy solution is selling SP for aurum! By selling SP for aurum 90% of people are happy, the new players can actualy play the game like a game and not have to train skills for obcene amounts of time before they can start to have fun, CCP make X amount of money and keeps the buisness rolling - working on expansions and new content for the whole community to enjoy. Now the 10% of bitter vets left think about this fora moment. That new players flying a ship he isnt totaly awear of the proper roles for, say a blaster astarte for example. This new guy doesnt know or appreciate how range dependant this ship is, you kite him and kill him. Easy killmail, a bit of fun for the bitter vet, and a valuable lesson for the guy in the astarte. In summory, buying sp will increase the playerbase alot IMO, i know skill training seriously put me off the game at the begining. More players = more immersive game and more killmails for the bitter vets. Cmon bitter vets, farm tears dont make them
BrundleMeth Caldari Temporal Mechanics	Posted - 2011.07.09 12:21:00 - [169] Originally by: saltrock0000 Right lets get this started, I am not a "Vet" however im not a newby (75milsp) I see no problem what so ever with buying SP for aurum. Eve needs to attract a constant influx of new players to ensure that the game server stays up and running, lets not forget, CCP wernt put here to amuse us geeky people, they are a buisness, and as a buisness have a bottom line and are looking to make money. Ok now put yourself in a new players situation for a moment. You run the tutorial missions, you eventualy start getting a grasp of the game, what you want to do, so you get evemon and WHAAAAAAM 360+ days training for something you want. Now you as a new player, are you going to think "f this fora game of soldiers" or "oh ok yeah ill commit to a new game for a YEAR". Easy solution is selling SP for aurum! By selling SP for aurum 90% of people are happy, the new players can actualy play the game like a game and not have to train skills for obcene amounts of time before they can start to have fun, CCP make X amount of money and keeps the buisness rolling - working on expansions and new content for the whole community to enjoy. Now the 10% of bitter vets left think about this fora moment. That new players flying a ship he isnt totaly awear of the proper roles for, say a blaster astarte for example. This new guy doesnt know or appreciate how range dependant this ship is, you kite him and kill him. Easy killmail, a bit of fun for the bitter vet, and a valuable lesson for the guy in the astarte. In summory, buying sp will increase the playerbase alot IMO, i know skill training seriously put me off the game at the begining. More players = more immersive game and more killmails for the bitter vets. Cmon bitter vets, farm tears dont make them I agree. Unfortunately people don't want to hear it. The would rather snivel about how tough they had it and how it's not fair ad nauseum...
Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.07.11 09:01:00 - [170] Originally by: White Tree So how many of you equate the buying of characters with the buying of SP, and if you do compare them on the same level, then do you then think the idea of buying SP is ok? I'm just curious. Purchasing SP directly raises the baseline of worthless trash. The T1 market is already kinda flimsy, with so few reasons to ever fly a t1 frigate that isn't a Rifter / Kestrel, they're worthless. Having more new players jump over them faster will likely make T1 cruisers the new T1 Frigate. I'd like to buy sp without causing this issue. Perhaps if one could only purchase SP relating to T2 skills, I don't know. Something like that.

Kuikiker WALLTREIPERS	Posted - 2011.07.11 09:56:00 - [171] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Repeating this for the third time now, It cost him/her $400 to train 53m sp, cost me 200$ to train 53m sp. Now, it would have cost me $400 to train if I didn't just straight up buy the SP and choose to train it instead. $200 =/= $400 last time I checked. While he was training the character he was PLAYING THE GAME. I play Eve cause I enjoy it, not to see how my SP number raises.
Signal11th	Posted - 2011.07.11 10:26:00 - [172] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Originally by: Potato IQ A company making changes always p!sses somebody off, usually the old guard that are reluctant to change and just simply donÆt like something they see as unfair because they didnÆt have it in their time. Fine. *Fck off then.** Cutting your nose off to spite your face is a very mature attitude if you leave the game. Nothing has fundamentally changed in your gameplay. ItÆs been mentioned countless times that in game knowledge will still be poor regardless of the SP they have, so removing their new ship for them will be a learning exercise that SP does not = win The perceived gulf, and inability to close it for those that see this as a problem, will stop new players coming in. The reality of incredible long skills after a few months will not promote player retention. There are only so many people Eve will attract and the alts must greatly exaggerate the player base number increase. Alts donÆt buy PLEX to sell, so where is your sustained market going to come from? CanÆt wait for the b!tching when players suddenly have to either pay stupid prices for PLEX or pay for subscription from their own pocket ItÆs easy to predict, and it is certainly my hope, that Eve will grow from strength to strength. It is also just as easy to predict stagnation and eventual decline. Incarna may eventually open the door to another bread of player to the ones that join currently, when it works of course, but the skilling system as is will always be a problem. Bemoaning the introduction of SP boosting because you didn't have it? Grow up Things Change. Life isn't fair. CCP will do what it takes to keep the cash flowing. So a thousand vets quit? So what? Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that? Somewhere a village is missing it's idiot.
Written Word Written Word's Tax Haven	Posted - 2011.07.11 10:28:00 - [173] I could live with it if you got 500,000 skillpoints or less for a PLEX. The price you pay for not having to wait for it. I would rather have somebody buying bulk SP than skillpoint respecs. Unfortunately, I am pretty such re-specs will come because they already coded it in and its a popular trend in MMOs.
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.07.11 10:33:00 - [174] Oh ** me, not this ** again. Why is the OP asking when all these threads he mentions are full of the bloody reasons buying SP is death to Eve for any serious player. e.g. - It removes progression which is one big reason people keep playing an MMO. It rewards money over time to a far, far, far greater degree than PLEX does - PLEX can only buy you a better XYZ of the same tier. Buying SP can allow you to fly anything. It creates something out of nothing. PLEX requires player effort and time to purchase from a seller. It is open to extensive abuse. It would create an environment that favours SP buyers over those who choose to actually play the game. An arms race would begin and only the wealthiest players would come out on top. Skill and time invested in the game wouldn't matter anymore. It would be all about who buys the most SP. Inevitably alliances would start demanding their players be able to use XYZ highest level skill, forcing them to all buy SP. It would be an economic disaster as lower level skills and their related goods are passed over by the vast majority of players buying SP, because they either want the instant gratification, can't see lower level stuff also has a purpose, and peer pressure to fly the highest level ships, etc. Suddenly an awful lot of items in the game would drop in value, destroying the point of running missions, manufacturing, etc that produce these lower level items. And I could go on. Instead I refer you to: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541099&page=1 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1547877 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1548180 -- The Door!
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.07.11 11:04:00 - [175] Originally by: Anon Magnus Hypocritical or not, when it comes to buying skill points added on top of the already existing PLEXà I want to scream ôthis far and NO MORE.ö It feels like there is already too much real world money affecting the game and injecting more into my virtual environment tanks the experience of actually playing and accomplishing goals. IÆd compare it to the difference between making out with a woman that actually likes you and another thatÆll only do it for money. http://youtu.be/dto2gS7hye8 -- The Door!
Mintrolio	Posted - 2011.07.11 11:11:00 - [176] CONFRIMIGN IN REEL LIFES IS I AM VER WELTHY ALSO I CAN BY MANY MANY SKILLS PIONTS. ALSO THESES SKILLS PIONTS NOT MADE BY ANYONES ALSO CHRACTER IS MADE BY PEEPOLS. ALSO IS VER DIFFRENTS. ALSO I AGAINS BY SKILLS PIONTS EVEN IF AM I VER WELTHY. THAT IST ALLE
My Postman	Posted - 2011.07.11 11:20:00 - [177] You can buy a char with $$$$, and the SP said char has. You might be able to fly a supercap on your 4 week old char, but still you will horribly fail, as you were not able to buy the experiance to fly a supercap with it. Buying SP with a experianced (and probably rich on RL money) WILL give you an advantage over players the same age, and that¦s why we don¦t want this s*it.
Kurtkonig Blackwater USA Inc. Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2011.07.11 11:28:00 - [178] 5 years ago there we had no sell-out guys like you in EVE. I restarted my account 1 month ago and first thing I realized was that active players got younger, and trolls became visible.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.07.11 11:54:00 - [179] Fine, let's satisfy the sub-intelligent that want to buy skill points without breaking the game. Skill points: 1 Aurum ea. There is no monocle.
Renan Ruivo Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:14:00 - [180] Originally by: Mark Sherlock I see many a post involving, "I'll quit if you can purcahse SP"... I started playing eve four weeks ago, four week old account. I have two characters. One with 1.2 million SP, another with 53 million SP. I actually created another account to train additional SP, but letting that one run dry as purchasing SP is cheaper than training it. I bought PLEX online through CCP account management. I sold plex for isk. I bought SP with isk What's the fuss about? I can only imagine this has been around for a while now. If you have the money to spend, buy a cerebral accelerator for your new characters. It costs the same as a PLEX, but it gives +3 all across the board (or was it +3?). Plus, its stackable with normal implants so you can have +6 attributes on a 2 day old character. Right now if you want a Nyx pilot you have to pay for the entire 40m skillpoints it has. If you had SP for sale, however, you'd only need to top off your account. It would be cheaper, and thus we would have more supercap pilots as if they weren't already too many. Buying SP for money is a big no-no-no-no-no-no. It embodies the concept of P2W. EVE's commnuity has erupted like a volcano (no pun intedeed) after CCP even entertained the idea of putting game changing items on the NeX store (as if you can't already buy stuff with PLEX). If CCP even touched the idea of selling SP with a 10 feet pole, they would receive half a dozen bombs on their headquarters through conventional mail. ____________ Originally by: CCP Guard Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!

Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:19:00 - [181] Originally by: StillBorn CrackBaby Guys who pay with plex and never make the company a dime. Who needs customers like that? People who pay for their accounts using ISK-bought PLEX actually earn CCP more money than people who pay yearly subscriptions. Have you seen the discount rates on yearly subscription? Just over $10/month versus $19.95/month - I think CCP would love more customers like that. [ Australian players join channel ANZAC ]
Renan Ruivo Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:21:00 - [182] I find entertaining to watch the debates on threads like this. People write and post and argue and cry as if it really mattered, lol. Good past-time for a lazy morning, though... ____________ Originally by: CCP Guard Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:27:00 - [183] Originally by: Toovhon Edited by: Toovhon on 11/07/2011 10:56:11 Oh ** me, not this ** again. Why is the OP asking when all these threads he mentions are full of the bloody reasons buying SP is death to Eve for any serious player. e.g. - It removes progression which is one big reason people keep playing an MMO. It rewards money over time to a far, far, far greater degree than PLEX does - PLEX can only buy you a better XYZ of the same tier. Buying SP can allow you to fly anything. It creates something out of nothing. PLEX requires player effort and time to purchase from a seller. It is open to extensive abuse. It removes having to make choices and tradeoffs, and live with them which is a big part of Eve. Nothing means anything anymore. You're not emotionally invested in a skill if you instantly bought it, as opposed to having to spend time learning it and building up an in-game infrastructure to support the new skill's possibilities (e.g. you don't just train to use a new ship. You have to train other related skills, build/earn ISK to buy the parts, learn to fly it well, etc). It would create an environment that favours SP buyers over those who choose to actually play the game. An arms race would begin and only the wealthiest players would come out on top. Skill and time invested in the game wouldn't matter anymore. It would be all about who buys the most SP. Inevitably alliances would start demanding their players be able to use XYZ highest level skill, forcing them to all buy SP. It would be an economic disaster as lower level skills and their related goods are passed over by the vast majority of players buying SP, because they either want the instant gratification, can't see lower level stuff also has a purpose, and peer pressure to fly the highest level ships, etc. Suddenly an awful lot of items in the game would drop in value, destroying the point of running missions, manufacturing, etc that produce these lower level items. You may have convinced yourself you can only enjoy Eve with XYZ high level ship, but the fact is it's you that is the problem. Having a T3 or SuperCap won't suddenly fix that. I enjoyed Eve from day one. Why do you think high level ships and activities are all there is? That's just sad. And I could go on. Instead I refer you to: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1541099&page=1 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1547877 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1548180 Good post. It really isn't hard to work out and it just belies belief that others can't see it or maybe they don't care about the long term future of EvE. Of concern to me is I'm not sure that some of the CSM representatives get why SP shouldn't be sold in the NEX store. Scary thought concidering they are supposed to be looking after player interests!
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:34:00 - [184] Originally by: Yseri Edited by: Yseri on 07/07/2011 21:02:52 Olleybear, we're not talking about buying everything for money, just SP. Right now the noob you're talking about has a year of watching the blue bar before getting skilled enough to avoid being blown up all the time. Another year if he wants to start manufacturing. And another if he decides to do missions. And so on... I've only had this particular character (started off as a guy to try different race's ships out with, then moved primarily into high and lowsec missioning, R&D, logistics and trade, while still dabbling in whatever takes my fancy) for a little over a year (seems longer, but I just checked and it really has only been about 14 months), and he can fly T2 ore and ice mining barges with 100% T2 fits, T2 Transports, the Noctis, Freighters, every T1 class of ship of every race (and decently fit their weapon systems) up to BCs, Minmatar BS, with a lot of SPs spend towards fitting out the Drake and Typhoon Fleet Issue (the most skill intensive T1 ship in Eve) with almost all T2 level gear, scout class drones at T2, rest at T1, five R&D agents running, nine and within a few hours ten R&D concurrent R&D jobs, and a bunch of social and trade skills, as well as several random skills I wanted to try. I can mission, probe and explore, run WHs with friends, go on combat ops as scout, tackle, heavy tackle, and DPS shield or armour tanked, sneak cloaked into enemy territory and spy with covert ops cloak, transport goods through 99% of gate camps (though that might have more to do with most gate camps being poorly run :-) ), freight goods, mine ore and ice with T2 barges and fit, manufacture half decently, research pretty well, run R&D agents, invent, and stuff I'm sure I'm not remembering at 12am... My point being I may not do all that perfectly, but I do it more than well enough to get by. Certainly I pull my weight wherever I am, and die less than the other guy does in combat. Yet you and your fellow 'wah! Only the vets can do stuff!' group try to make out it takes years to do lots of different stuff. So how do you explain my jack of all trades character, please? Don't try and say he just sucks at everything, because I have no trouble fitting my Typhoons which have a very tight grid, nor my T2 barges and transports, and I make a lot of money from R&D, logistics, and trade. All I can say is if you're getting blown up a lot you're picking the wrong battles, in the wrong places, with the wrong fleet at your back. Yes, higher level ships and fit might help you out, but brains will take you further. I've seen more than one guy in a high level ship get blown away by much lower levels. Eve if you do get into XYZ high level ship faster, you're still going to have to run sometimes, and you'll still die sometimes as well. You won't magically become invincible. -- The Door!
Adrian Styles	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:56:00 - [185] Originally by: Mark Sherlock Originally by: Cashcow Golden Goose Well those 53m SP had already been sold by CCP once while the character trained. And then you purchased some ISK and paid for them again. Paid for the exact same 53m SP again So currently CCP are selling the exact same SP over and over and you are asking why CCP aren't changing that system? If I had something I could sell over and over, I wouldn't change it either. CCP know that selling SP slowly over time is rubbish. They look at my 0.5 euro a day and they go "It's gun be a long time before I get muh big yacht" but then you come along and drop $300 on something they already sold once... and it's dollars-in-the-eyes time! ($) ($) KER CHING CHING CHING! If CCP sell it directly and at will they're only competing with themselves. Makes no sense to change. This is not considering that they lose an EQUAL amount of training time as well, my training time in subscription fees. This is why many subscription services ban selling characters. Since I am not going to be spending the roughly $400 it takes to train up to 53m sp, I instead spend just over $200. That is lost rev, not gained. Maybe I am missing something, but i was sure I was purchasing SP, at a fantastic rate in comparison to subscription fees. Didnt bother reading the entire thread, this part just grabbed my attention. Yeah you bought 53m SP character. So, using your math, someone paid $400 to train 53m SP, you then paid an EXTRA $200 to buy 53m SP character. You paid $200 for something already bought and paid for, second hand if you will. Yeah, they made money from you.
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.07.11 12:59:00 - [186] Originally by: Ripley Nostromo Only a matter of time.... You'll see... Do you think if you keep repeating that then magically CCP will go back on what they've stated numerous times, the majority of players have rejected, CSM have rejected, and elementary logic tells us will destroy a sandbox MMO like Eve? If so you're a moron. I'm sorry, but you are. You're a lazy, selfish, shortsighted (or possibly even overtly malicious to Eve's well being - I wouldn't put it past people like you) moron. No doubt you'll just label me as another nasty wasty troll of the OP and you who are so right, and one day CCP will validate your stupidity, yes - then you'll have the last laugh when reality inverts and CCP decides to destroy Eve just to show that you were right! Hahaha! Won't you laugh at us poor fools who used sense and logic! Meanwhile back in reality you're still a moron who has been told time and again NO. You may not hurt Eve. I realise you're part of the generation who have never been told no, and have had competition stripped out of all games so everyone can 'win', but this is the adult world now.You cannot always have your own way, you can't do everything and be anything you want, and nobody is going to baby you and pretend there are no winners and losers. -- The Door!
Caliph Muhammed Caldari Caldari Naval Criminal Investigative Service	Posted - 2011.07.16 17:03:00 - [187] Originally by: Toovhon Originally by: Ripley Nostromo Only a matter of time.... You'll see... Do you think if you keep repeating that then magically CCP will go back on what they've stated numerous times, the majority of players have rejected, CSM have rejected, and elementary logic tells us will destroy a sandbox MMO like Eve? If so you're a moron. I'm sorry, but you are. You're a lazy, selfish, shortsighted (or possibly even overtly malicious to Eve's well being - I wouldn't put it past people like you) moron. No doubt you'll just label me as another nasty wasty troll of the OP and you who are so right, and one day CCP will validate your stupidity, yes - then you'll have the last laugh when reality inverts and CCP decides to destroy Eve just to show that you were right! Hahaha! Won't you laugh at us poor fools who used sense and logic! Meanwhile back in reality you're still a moron who has been told time and again NO. You may not hurt Eve. I realise you're part of the generation who have never been told no, and have had competition stripped out of all games so everyone can 'win', but this is the adult world now.You cannot always have your own way, you can't do everything and be anything you want, and nobody is going to baby you and pretend there are no winners and losers. Nah, you're not a troll. Your posts are a joy to read. Don't ever quit EVE, i'd pay your subscription just to have you as a poster on this forum for the sake of our community.
Hawk Firestorm	Posted - 2011.07.16 19:25:00 - [188] Why simple many have spent a decade building and paying to build there character why should you or anyone get the opportunity to purchase SP to get you there in 10mins at a vastly reduced price?
Mr Dilkington	Posted - 2011.07.16 19:39:00 - [189] Edited by: Mr Dilkington on 16/07/2011 19:43:08 Originally by: Mark Sherlock Personally, I found that if I intended to play the game for over a year, I would have been a sucker to not purchase SP, not even considering its more expensive to train yourself. Players like you are a valuable part of the eve population. People with all the skills and all the expensive gear that do not know how to use it form a large proportion of people scammed, robbed, ganked and popped, which in turn helps alot of other players out financially in game. Paying for SP is a horrible idea it removes char progression also which is one of the greatest things about the game. I dont agree with the paying to win analagy tho, most players that buy a char and buy all the gear have not got a clue what to do with it.
Xandralkus Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.16 20:05:00 - [190] Edited by: Xandralkus on 16/07/2011 20:17:07 Hey, here's an idea - not sure if you guys will like it or hate it though. Have an injection you can buy off of the NeX for a couple dollars. When used, it gives, say, 1 mil SP up front. You can then spend those SP however you like. However, this causes an SP deficit, which must be made up before any more skills can be trained, and before any more such injections can be used. These injections could also increase the deficit training rate of SP by, say, five percent. CCP could even introduce different (more expensive) variants that increase the deficit training rate further, although I'd strongly advise against anything higher than 10%. This way, it isn't theoretically possible for a player to acquire more than 10% more SP than is normally available in game. Would this make everyone happy? CCP can make (more) money off of us with MT, and I'm pretty sure we could all think of some fun stuff to do with a million SP up front. This way, we avoid the thorny issue of SP over-inflated characters. Why am I against straight-up SP purchasing? SP is a commodity - a very ****ing valuable (and powerful) one at that. The only reason it has value in game is because it is scarce. The only reason why PLEX to ISK works is because it's only one piece to the puzzle. ISK does not let you buy firepower, unless you have SP to match it. With both SP and ISK purchasable, firepower is purchasable. Golden ammo, not cool. ----- Combat in Warp - The Proposal

Danny Centauri Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe	Posted - 2011.07.16 20:25:00 - [191] Purchasing SP is stupid for one main reason, large alliances. Imagine that we could purchase SP for AUR, meaning in effect we can buy our victory through ISK. This would mean that the rich become yet more and more powerful making it harder for everyone else to displace them. If this had happened then the north would still stand as all the moon goo would have been invested into characters to make them more powerful. New character joins powerful alliance give them 30m SP. I can't believe anyone would see any way in which purchasing SP would not be messed up.
Sekket Caldari White-Noise	Posted - 2011.07.16 20:25:00 - [192] Originally by: Toovhon It would be an economic disaster as lower level skills and their related goods are passed over by the vast majority of players buying SP, because they either want the instant gratification, can't see lower level stuff also has a purpose, and peer pressure to fly the highest level ships, etc. Suddenly an awful lot of items in the game would drop in value, destroying the point of running missions, manufacturing, etc that produce these lower level items. I was thinking it would be ok to have training accelerators in the RMT store, something that gives you a week or two of accelerated skill training, but has a cool down of several months. Kinda like the exclusive item they bundled with the retail packages. I don't think that would have too big an affect on the economic situation.
Zyress	Posted - 2011.07.23 06:09:00 - [193] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Zyress Actually since the only reason I can think of to buy an old character is for their skill points, I have to agree, there isn't much difference between buying SP and buying an old charcter. think of a future where every corp will demand maxed out skills even from day 1 noobs. this doesn't happen with character transfer. this could happen with SP purchase. Regardless of what corps demand of noobs, the only reason to buy an old character instead of starting a new one is for their skill points, hence, you are buying skill points when you buy a character. They are moving from a character slot on someone elses account into a player slot in your account,someone else earned them and sold them to you, unless you replace a higher skillpoint charcater slot with your new character, (not likely) then you had a net sp gain in your account for your purchase.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.07.23 06:17:00 - [194] Because I spent 5 years getting my skill points. All it takes is you investing your time. But if you can buy skillpoints some rich dude can come in and have more skill points than me even though I've paid CCP for over 5 years.
Flag Bravo Minmatar	Posted - 2011.07.23 06:30:00 - [195] Because we pay a sub, and a extortionate sub at that. One or the other but never both.


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