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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.02.23 13:44:00 -
[1]
Discussion on the New World Order Dev Blog.
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I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:19:00 -
[2]
well first off i think the empires need some low sec boundaries between them, making travelling between empires more risky. Being able to jump from caldari space into gallente space after 3-4 jumps through high sec is not wot i would call realistic.
I think yulai will have to stay as it is such a hub for the economy that getting rid of it would be a bad idea. Maybe breakdown, or remove, the rest of the highway through kemerk/yulai/lustrevik, down to amarr and across to gall space. This should hopefully open up the regional markets, kinda like nonni is in caldari space.
If the game could get to the stage where there is a central sort of hub for each region then i think this would be much better than the current system of the highways being the place to sell, with a few exceptions.
As for entrance to 0.0 and deep space i think the number of entry points into 0.0 should be doubled or tripled, same with those deep space regions that are easily patrolled. I agree that the entrance should be after a long traul through low sec, rather than the curent 1-2-3 jumps from empire. Eve needs to move away from massive gate camping and ganking, giving more entry points should open the map up a bit more.
All pretty much standard stuff from my POV. I will take a look at the map when i get home and come up with some serious suggestions with names and ideas etc
Its good to see you guys are taking the views of the players on board, whether or not you had this planned. There has been a lot of player discussions on the eve map for a while now
Forums: Sharks - MC |
FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:29:00 -
[3]
It should be a good idea to remove some of the highway jumps. There are probably hundreds of systems in Empire that get little or no traffic at the moment due to those highways.
ex P-TMC
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JarmenKell
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:32:00 -
[4]
can empire space be surrounded by 0.0 systems.
no circeled as it stands.
right now Eve World is a 2d map. look out on starynight.
arent stars every were
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:36:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Nyxus on 23/02/2005 14:37:42
Large swaths of 0.0 all around empire with as many gates as say, Jita, would be perfect. No chokepoints right at Empire. Those should be rimward, to give small/medium corps a place to grow. Besides, those systems closest to empire should be the most developed from a common sense approach.
Removing some of the highways would be ok. But PLEASE SHOW THE PLAYERS WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO REMOVE BEFORE YOU DO IT. As it stands, many players but especially industrial folks, have items in many different places, perhaps 8 or so jumps apart. It would be really terrible, and totally disheartening, to log in one day and find out half of your manufacturing materials which were 3 jumps away are now 35 jumps away. By letting us know your intentions we can adjust accordingly before it happens and allow for a smoother transition when you literally change the world to make it a better place to play.
Thanks Oveur, it's good to know you guys listen to us.
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Grismar
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:55:00 -
[6]
Without only making a "me too" post, I agree with Eyeshadow's point to an extent. This would be an ideal moment to fix the highway situation and create better regional market opportunities. A good way to do this would be by making important "connecting" systems lower security, preferably 0.4 or below. (note that these systems aren't necessarily the systems with the most connections, but often the systems that offer jumps to the farthest reaches)
People would have a choice: make a long trip through relatively safe space, or make a shorter trip through dangerous space that will undoubtedly attract unsavoury characters.
A further stimulus to regional markets would be limited access to the deep space beyond. Make it more easily accessible from a few regions, but make the trip around or through the regions (from the outside) a longer one.
Finally, I would like to make a pre-emptive strike against all bookmarkers that will want to come and whine in this thread: I have 1400+ bookmarks all through the galaxy and you don't hear me whining. The devs are clear: this change -will- come, so let's focus on making it a good change :)
Rats - Corp/Implants - Agents |
Mir
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:58:00 -
[7]
For storyline/continuity's sake, I hope the changes are rolled out gradually, i.e. only a few gates are changed at a time / takes a week to build a new one, etc etc. A sudden change would not be good.
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Damocles Ician
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Posted - 2005.02.23 14:59:00 -
[8]
How about one way gates? a slingshot round the sun style acceleration gate firing you deep into 0.0 ... with only the long way back home.
There might be a deep space slingshot gate back into low-sec empire that is frequented by NPC pirates (or event actors) who want to give players a chance to run guard duty in the "receiving zone" of the gate.
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Beta Vixen
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:01:00 -
[9]
Speaking as a single player only, I'd like to suggest that the "major" npc opponents to the existing four empires would likely have bought or strongarmed their way into possessing gates from their 00 space strongholds into the 01 to 04 Empire border regions that they are contesting for control of.
Example: The Guristas would possess a few gates from their 00 strongholds into border Caldari space.
I expect that they would defend their gates with powerful forces, which could be reinforced with even stronger forces from deeper in their territory. This suggests that only players with a certain positive standing with the owning npc faction could use these gates and other players would be attacked and destroyed.
By this means, a selective few players would be permitted to use these gates for smuggling and other purposes while the vast majority of all player corporations, of whatever alignment on the lawful vs ganker axis, would be denied passage.
Ah, what fun it would be to infiltrate an 00 region via these gates in your covert ops frigate. Of course, each player would be able to do so in only one or two regions at most and most players wouldn't be able to do so at all.
****
I'm free! I'm free!!
****
Imagination comes before Accomplishment.
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Cardassius
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:18:00 -
[10]
Just like on earth.
Have highways from capital systems to other capital systems.
Put some 0.0 systems around empires which act as border/high risk points.
I'll make a nice map soon ;)
ASCI Recruiting! |
Eyeshadow
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:27:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Hokias R'zeng
Edited by: Hokias R'zeng on 23/02/2005 15:14:10
Edit: pesky missing brackets ;)
Originally by: Eyeshadow
If the game could get to the stage where there is a central sort of hub for each region then i think this would be much better than the current system of the highways being the place to sell, with a few exceptions.
Can't shake the feeling that would also introduce a central point of lag for each region, too.. so many pilots in one place could really slow things down. We have that now as it is, that could worsen it..
Hokias
Well i think 10+ busy regional markets would still be better than the 150+ constant players u see in yulai/kemerk/niya/jita etc. If the regional markets hit 100+ then it would be job achieved. I wouldnt mind knowing the stats on how many pilots pass through Yulai every minute/hour/day cos i can imagine that atleast half the population passes through here on a daily basis.
As for lag, i think its a minor consideration personally. If regional markets did become established then im sure CCP would monitor it and increase the load the nodes for these central systems so they could handle more travellers.
I think each region should have a central area, with surrounded by high sec systems, bordered by low sec. This would mean having to travel through low sec for regional markets, maybe make it so that there are some high sec highways, but the # of jumps would be bigger, making the trip longer.
Forums: Sharks - MC |
Ki Shodan
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:36:00 -
[12]
Oveur, can you please explain, why you are planing to alter the map so drasticly?
after the change of the highway-routes, it seems to be quite stable compared to the daily stuck warnings before.
as it seems to me now, you want to fix something, that is not broken.
please give us more info on the why and how.
(at least i want to know, why i have to jump 40+ jumps from my labs to my mineral deposits to my factories in the future. the dev blog sounds to me like this, when you talk about removing the highways between empires.)
to be honest, what i read in the dev blog is:
"hey, people, you got to eat ****. but the good news is: you are to choose fork or spoon!"
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:38:00 -
[13]
Well, if the empire systems are set, I'll concentrate on simply adding more access from empire to 0.0 and more shortcuts within the 0.0 regions. By your defintion, you dont want 0.0 highways but shortcuts of saving say 5-10 jumps should be ok.
Tbh the same methodology can be applied to most regions as they only have 1-3 access points. The aim is to I would guess double these access points whilst allowing the deeper 0.0 regions to have lesser routes in if applicable to allow for security.
The big pro's of this for all people is of course more routes to 0.0 and slightly better chance of making it through. We are all accutely aware of the scramble oftentimes to get through hed-gp in the old days right after downtime before the campers logged on. As the universe's population has grown, the numbers of people in 0.0 hasnt as those out there have been able to maintain access and security of their regions relatively easily to anyone but an invading force.
This gives the opportunity only as well to add more options to get past the 0.4 gank camps but on the flip side of the coin will give more opprtunity for more gank camps to be setup.
I would guess the people really opposing any such moves would be many alliance members (referring to '0.0' alliances) who obviously like their privacy etc and will most likely contend with anything that allows other people to access their space.
Starting with Curse/GW, I would add 3 more routes and probably 3 shortcuts within GW/Curse which cutout say 8-10 jumps each.
i dunno something like this maybe. The principle is there but people will argue most likely over specifics, U3K is the main zydrine whoring system for the GW alliances. so obviously they would need to zyd belts moved somewhere more secure I guess or they will cry.
I would really like to see the empire map you have planned :) Oh and any chance of connecting the region to the top right?
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Alex Harumichi
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:44:00 -
[14]
Ideally, I'd like to see:
- some low-sec (even 0.0) travel required between various empires' space, so moving from, say, Gallente space to Amarr space would need some preparation and carry at least some risk. However, making low-sec chokepoints between empires would be a no-no, since that would be a no-brainer camp site for gate gank squads.
- more gateways into the 0.0 areas bordering empire space, making it very hard for any alliance to actually hold and control that area. Result: more random miners and rathunters enter, more prey for pirates, more fun for everyone.
- 0.0 chokepoints moved a lot deeper in, so you'd have small areas of "deep" 0.0 that would be fairly easy to hold and control by an alliance by gate-camping.
Result: "empire" would stop being on big blob of high-sec, and act more like the separate factions it's supposed to be. Access to "near" 0.0 would be easier, since alliances would need to work a lot more to control access to those areas, just amping a chokepoint gate would no longer be an option. Claiming areas would still be doable deeper in, for smaller blobs of 0.0.
Since the aims of the dev blog point in the direction of all this, I'm all for the changes. Good stuff.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:45:00 -
[15]
hehe ok for empire since I just realised it was asking:
take all current 0.1-0.3 and rescale to 0.0. Add more jump routes so that each sustem had at least 3 gates leading from it (thats the open & accessible part)
take the remaining 0.4-1.0 and rescale between 0.1-1.0 with no changes to key systems like highways etc.
Change some individual systems to low sec to give the DMZ between each empire.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Oveur
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Posted - 2005.02.23 15:56:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Oveur on 23/02/2005 16:02:49
Originally by: Hakera
Well, if the empire systems are set, I'll concentrate on simply adding more access from empire to 0.0 and more shortcuts within the 0.0 regions. By your defintion, you dont want 0.0 highways but shortcuts of saving say 5-10 jumps should be ok.
Tbh the same methodology can be applied to most regions as they only have 1-3 access points. The aim is to I would guess double these access points whilst allowing the deeper 0.0 regions to have lesser routes in if applicable to allow for security.
The big pro's of this for all people is of course more routes to 0.0 and slightly better chance of making it through. We are all accutely aware of the scramble oftentimes to get through hed-gp in the old days right after downtime before the campers logged on. As the universe's population has grown, the numbers of people in 0.0 hasnt as those out there have been able to maintain access and security of their regions relatively easily to anyone but an invading force.
This gives the opportunity only as well to add more options to get past the 0.4 gank camps but on the flip side of the coin will give more opprtunity for more gank camps to be setup.
I would guess the people really opposing any such moves would be many alliance members (referring to '0.0' alliances) who obviously like their privacy etc and will most likely contend with anything that allows other people to access their space.
Starting with Curse/GW, I would add 3 more routes and probably 3 shortcuts within GW/Curse which cutout say 8-10 jumps each.
i dunno something like this maybe. The principle is there but people will argue most likely over specifics, U3K is the main zydrine whoring system for the GW alliances. so obviously they would need to zyd belts moved somewhere more secure I guess or they will cry.
I would really like to see the empire map you have planned :) Oh and any chance of connecting the region to the top right?
This is exactly the kind of suggestion which attracts attention. It also fits with many of the goals we're trying to achieve.
The empire changes are dictated by the storyline, think of it more like disconnecting people that don't like each other.
To answer another question here, the "stuck system galore" was not present before we had the highways, it was the highways that created the "stuck systems", hence the decentralization of them in recent times to address that.
Another thing is that we will very reluctantly add new systems or change security status and at this moment not even considered.
Edit: And email the proposal to Interbus 
_____________________________
I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Hakera
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:10:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Hakera on 23/02/2005 16:14:36
Originally by: Oveur
The empire changes are dictated by the storyline, think of it more like disconnecting people that don't like each other.
all good, coupled with increasingly racial tensions , the cold war needs to get colder :) but lets not forget that on the different levels from internal conflicts within races etc
Quote:
To answer another question here, the "stuck system galore" was not present before we had the highways, it was the highways that created the "stuck systems", hence the decentralization of them in recent times to address that.
feel free to remove them :) Oh and move the agents from rens (at least a few of them)
Quote:
Another thing is that we will very reluctantly add new systems or change security status and at this moment not even considered.
ok, well thats my idea above out the window, but its hard to create a DMZ without doing either :)
I can go round the map and slap extra jumps on at obvious points but I would say that the same model be followed, its pretty obvious without drawing them, add 3-4 jumps from empire to the nearest 0.0. Add shortcut gates cutting 6-10 jumps within 0.0 regions.
One more thing, would be to add much more 'unique' regions of space. Part of the magic of other MMORG's is the exploration, and completely different geography, landscape and general eye candy, I would ask wholeheartedly for a few modellers to be employed and graphics artists to make regions or at least constellations unique. The capitol systems could do with more as well imo.
I have spouted this idea before about the possibility of conquerable stargates in the deeper regions...Whilst POS 'represent' territorial control they do not enforce it. I wouldnt mind seeing something like conquerable gates make a step towards that or the ability to place POS at gates :))))
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:13:00 -
[18]
I'm a little confused as to what you intend to do to the space between the factions. You say you want to move them farther apart but also don't want to change the security status of anywhere. I'd say feel free to step on a few toes.
It's your virtual world so you can do whatever you like obviously, however I'd like to offer a suggestion for the increasing the tensions between the rival factions:
More than a speedbump, less than a barricade.
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Moadyb
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:14:00 -
[19]
Well I am a farily new player (5 months) and have not experienced Eve before the 'highways'. I don't really have an strong opinion on the changes and they are quiet vague to me (in terms of storyline etc).
However, finding a lab slot now is a pain, I don't have the liberty to just move my labs around as I please, therefore with the removal of the highways I see myself runing pretty long routes to get from lab/factory to market.
Also, moving from pretty centralized commerce hubs like Yulai and Nonni to a decentralized regional system where you would have 10+ regional markets will lead to less competition and therefore higher prices.
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Wahad Bredkebir
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:14:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Wahad Bredkebir on 23/02/2005 16:17:50
short unsecure paths (0.0) between empire (7 - 10 jumps as now) perhaps 2,3 chockpoints to make the path really dangerous.
keep a very very long secure path for instance 20, 30 jumps between Pator and Amarr via Yulai.
This will enforce mystery and the feeling to belong to a faction. and definitively favor local markets.
More entry points to outer regions will certainly heal at some level the blob plague and the revert-exodus effect.
After this you only have to kill local, map and insta, move the lvl4 agents to unsecure space to have the perfect game 
http://minmatars.are.free.fr |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:31:00 -
[21]
Imo less chokepoints to/in 0.0 is a good thing.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:34:00 -
[22]
I'd like to see something storyline related that adds gates to and from the player-conquerable stations from one station to another in the same regions. (or a centralized system that has gates leading to all three, would be pretty interesting to see who can hold that system)
www.hadean.org
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Moadyb
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:35:00 -
[23]
Well after thinking about this a bit more, I don't understand why Eve wants travelling to become a bigger time sink as it is now. Most of the new MMOs have realized that players would like to 'jump' into the action and spend less time travelling or doing 'boring' stuff.
I know alot of people will disagree, but really, why should I log and spend an hour getting to where I want to go (teaming up with a friend, checking on my lab, etc) instead of spending 5 mins for the same boring routine?
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:46:00 -
[24]
Please remember to rebalance ORe when you add new gates.
With the suggestions the UshraKhabn guy made for instance, there will be Ark 1 jump from empire space.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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noitulos
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:55:00 -
[25]
Edited by: noitulos on 23/02/2005 16:56:31
Unfortunatly I don't have the time to draw a map, but I love the changes proposed and have a few ideas on how they can be implemented.
1) opening up deep 0.0...great idea.
2) moving chokepoints out further from empire - also a terrific idea. a larger 'grey area' of .1 - .4 systems, but could lead to many complaints of sentry tankers unless multiple routes are present. However more opportunities for risk taking industrialists, fitting in nicely with the structure of eve as a risk/reward type thing.
Overall I LOVE the idea. I think it will make for a much happier eve population (except the alliances who have been controling a vast area of space by camping 2 gates). Heck, it might even make things better for them as they only need to 'control' a few systems to accomplish what they are doing there.
I think these proposed changes are truly moving the game in the right direction. :)
______________________________________________
"Every battle is won or lost before it is ever fought."
-Sun Tsu |
KrogothZero
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Posted - 2005.02.23 16:58:00 -
[26]
Looks good would be better if some of that unreachable space was opened too, put this together quickly clicky. I havent really ever been around the surrounding regions so if someone else who has wants to send a mail it in would be good ^^.
Would make the universe more round :)
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2005.02.23 17:02:00 -
[27]
EMPIRE:
What I would like to see here is a highway system based on the individual empires rather than between empires.
Waaaaay back in the early days a simple trip from rens to pator would be somthing like 10 jumps, traveling back then took a long time and I still remember when I was new in both the game and in my corp, my corp mates used to enjoy asking me where I was at as I constantly moved from region to region searching for good trade deals.
The idea would be to have good access within each empire but if you wish to go to a different one you would have to cross an area of lower sec space, the buffer between the empires as it were.
Presonally I would love for there to be "official" trade routes that are guarded by faction ships that will assist any traveller that is attacked as long as he has a suitable good standing with the controling empire and the same faction ships would seek out and destroy players with very low standing.
People with a neutral standing would have to fend for themselves against potential pirates.
The trade route would naturally be only the shortest of a number of possible routes between the empires.
Say an official trade route has 4 jumps between the outer "highway" systems of an empire, each empire controls the two systems closest to themselves.
This way we could still keep traveling times down to a reasonable amount while still adding the feel that empire space actually is several separate empires and not only one empire with regional governors.
0.0 SPACE.
More passages out into the near 0.0 space is needed, as is its far too easy to close off huge areas of 0.0 space by simply camping the outlets from empire, I would like to see a wild area in near 0.0 space that is close to impossible to control due to easy access and alternate routes.
Outside of this wild 0.0 space the alliances should have their choke points.
Another problem Im having is that as is the number of alliances that 0.0 can suport is very limited as the current chokepoints naturally close off space on a small number of very large areas, as its alot easier to simply make the whole area off limits and only actually use a fraction of it the number of alliances are kept low.
If you fragment upp far 0.0 space making it a number of pockets rather than strings it will be possible to easily doubble the number of alliances.
As we all know many alliances are held together basicly by gum and the will of a very small number of players, if the space was fragmented many alliances would break down into smaller groups, each of wich could have their own part of the whole and 0.0 space would be used more effectively.
Naturally many such new alliances would have loose associations with their former comrades and may band together still in the face of outside threat.
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Felsin
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Posted - 2005.02.23 17:06:00 -
[28]
I feel that if you are going to change around empire and the universe as a whole then there are a few key points that I feel need to be addressed.
1. Make all sections of 0.0 and empire have equal amounts of resources
2. make a major empire and 0.0 section for each races space with a central hub in each area
3. Create 0.0 shortcuts from empire to empire with many chokepoints
4. make the long route from empire to empire very long indeed hence no more highways
5. semi highways in 0.0 that get you where you want to go fast and if you dont take them its a 3x longer trip around thus getting more people into the dangers of 0.0
6. dont have to many stations in one area and keep it equally spread
With that said I like the idea and think it is well needed. I feel while you are at it you should delete instas and make some systems specifically good at certain things such as mining or npcing so you can kinda know where to go. This would also create a interesting pvp experience.
These are just my ideas and they might suck but thats how I feel. Either way please keep a central market system so that I know where to sell my ore lol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Dillinger4/Felsin.jpg |
Andrue
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Posted - 2005.02.23 17:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Oveur
Another thing is that we will very reluctantly add new systems or change security status and at this moment not even considered.
We've got 'Upper Debyl' and 'Lower debyl' but no 'Much Debyling' :)
More seriously I think shortcuts through 0.0 from one point in Empire to another would be good. Perhaps you could replace the highways you're going to remove with 0.0 journeys?
Oh and how about putting more rewards in 0.1 to 0.4. Right now there's not a lot of point in going there.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Exarch
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Posted - 2005.02.23 17:18:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Exarch on 23/02/2005 17:19:29
There should be a safe route between regions, maybe a bit longer then low security shortcuts. But we should not have to travel through the many Aunenens that system will create. Gatecamping is far to easy and adding more chokepoints in empire will have every pirate and their brother back in empire camping. Neatly packaged noobs for group slaughter, It will an eve goldrush.
although a large area of 0.0 between differant empires might be interesting... with valuable resources, a 'nuetral' zone if you will.
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