citation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155029

-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

I really don't understand the need to nerf Heavy Missiles. That system just BLOWs when you aint blobbing in Pvp.

This obviously affects the drake and tengu equally for C2/C3s and III/IVs. Will you be moving to heavy assault missiles, a new ship, or changing your playstyle? I'm curious as to your responses.

I don't see it affecting wormhole Tengu's THAT much. Site running will take longer, and you'll have to get closer, but in the end, pilots will adapt.

A 20% damage reduction is pretty significant.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard.

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.

Yes, but my concern is if they're nerfing them to the point that they're not really worth their high cost anymore

Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.

With the change to Tracking Enhancers, HAMs might be more effective, but you're losing DPS by dropping a Ballistic Control for a TE or you lose some of your tank by adding a Tracking Computer or a web. HAMs are still pretty awful, HMLs are just closer to HAMs in their awfulness now.

Would switching to HAM's for PvE be viable? You'd have to web frigs instead of target point them and the new tracking computer buffs would help with the range.

Yes, but my concern is if they're nerfing them to the point that they're not really worth their high cost anymore.

All of this is unfortunate. I've been training up for a tengu for over 3 months now. I spent the money to get the proper implants, got a bunch of the right missile skills to V, and I was planing to run lots of low sec missions to make things more exciting. I can't see any reasonable way to run low sec missions in a battleship. I guess I'm just going to have to retrain for a Machaiel or Nightmare and skip low sec.

Not everything needs to be the same.

^^^This.

Why the hell are they nerfing heavy missiles?? They're the least used in PVP as it is.

FWIW, my CNR can fire cruise missiles over 200k km, so not sure why heavy missiles that can fly 100 km need to be nerfed.. just going to make it easier for fast ships to escape the range of missiles.. but I can understand that better than a damage nerf. They're already a low damage weapon.

I will probably switch to a HAM Tengu/Drake for various missions/anomalies given that the range discrepancy wouldn't be as significant if this nerf goes into effect.

citation: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1937253#post1937253
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.

It seems b*ll sh*t to me............. make the other systems better then?
Also: every1 can train for whatever ship, also Tengu.

CCP always works in the wrong direction?

I will probably panic sell my Tengu/Caldari toon.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard.

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.

FWIW, my CNR can fire cruise missiles over 200k km, so not sure why heavy missiles that can fly 100 km need to be nerfed.. just going to make it easier for fast ships to escape the range of missiles.. but I can understand that better than a damage nerf. They're already a low damage weapon.

I really don't understand the need to nerf Heavy Missiles. That system just BLOWs when you aint blobbing in Pvp.

It's exactly the right direction. You should also keep in mind that the hulls getting reworked too.

The thing I keep coming back to is:

For years and years the Drake was a joke. All the "Leet" PvP pilots would laugh at the Caldari pilots and force the new recruits into Minmatar or Amarr ships. And if you used the words 'DPS' and 'Drake' in the same sentance, it might get you kicked from fleet.

Then there started to be some quality pilots flying those Drakes.. And they actually kill stuff and don't die like they are supposed too.

My issue is:

The DPS hasn't changed. And the range means you can't point the enemy anyway. When did the Drake change from 'LOL Drake' to 'omfg nerf that beast' ?

They didn't make a Tier 3 Missile platform.

Fury missiles only go about 70- km

Are they going to kill the best ships that Caldari has to offer?

If the goal is to bring Missiles in line with other weapons systems, will we see a change to the 10 second reload times and the small loads in the launchers as well?

CNR/SNR and raven ? they are jokes when compared to almost any other BS out there.
Frigate class for caldari ? Also a joke
We has cruisers but after this nerf they will be trash . We got BC for now but again after this nerf the Tengu and Drake will suck and other options will be much better.

If the goal is to bring Missiles in line with other weapons systems, will we see a change to the 10 second reload times and the small loads in the launchers as well?

Not to say balancing is a bad thing, well it is when CCP does it in their own way.

Yes missiles always hit for 100% of dmg (if defenders dont shoot them down), that is lowered by targets sig, and speed. You can never do a critt, you cant oneshot a frigate going your way like some other weapons can.

Problem is, if people stayed quiet, CCP would think that they got a great idea and lets just run with it.

Why dont they balance ACs? I havent used Tengu since I borrowed a Mach from a corpmate, lock any frigate from 74km and oneshot it, falloff is insane. Never mind that i shoot from insane distance and my dps should be crap, i still managed to clear rooms faster with mach then a tengu. Of 4 marauders, Vargur is insanely better then the rest (ACs take the cake), and there is no balancing there.

On paper my CNR does 850 dps, in reality its almost impossible to kill elite cruisers without drones-TP-rigs. Worst skills i ever trained, complete waste of time. And if cruises and torpedos dont need a buff (a big one), why do HMLs need such a nerf.

@Retardo Khaan
I am skilling for a carrier on 2 accounts, at least untill new AI rapes any drone/fighter i deploy. What use are small drones or fighters if they are 50+km from a carrier and they get aggro, webbed and killed before you can do anything to help them?

I fear CCP still has tendency to overnerf something to hell, and then wait 6+ months to acknowledge the error and "SOON" to fix it.

Real problem is if CCP starts to listen to L4 farmers who have been spoiled with overpowered ships and weapons for too long.

You are comparing a cruiser and a pirate faction battleship? Ok.

All large weapons need help killing frigates. With the difference that most large weapons always miss orbiting frigates. All battleships rely on drones to clear frigates, this really should be no news to anyone familiar with this game.

I understand it's hard for you to imagine a situation where you need to consider things like distance and order of targets and pay attention to things instead of snoozing thru the game, but this is already reality to many players.
Don't send light drones out to 50km and you'll be fine :)

Caldari lineup already doesn't have much to offer, Drake and Tengu were almost only ships used.
Remove them, and what is left if the nerf is too strong? They dont become balanced, they become useless.

Its about a panic nerf. There are other ships in caldari lineup, that use HMLs and all of them are gonna be hit with this nerf, its not a drake/tengu nerf, its a lot more than that.
And i didn't read that CCP is going to rework and rebalance every single caldari ship that uses missiles at the same time the nerf goes live. Caldari lineup already doesn't have much to offer, Drake and Tengu were almost only ships used.
Remove them, and what is left if the nerf is too strong? They dont become balanced, they become useless.

I'm in the process of training for the Tengu.
I'm pleased with the extra challenge to be honest.
If it doesn'r pan out, I still have near max skills in Winmatar ships and Projectiles w/ supports.
A Loki would just take me a couple weeks to train the subs to 5.

Loki will become FOTM after Tengu nerf. I already encounter more Lokis on roams than I do Tengus.

Expect Loki to be nerfed next (hopefully CCP doesn't get the bright idea to nerf projectiles like it has done with HML's)

CCP loves to cut off an arm to cure an infected finger.

Is it fair that AC cane does 600dps while HAM drake does only around 450dps.. Why not nerf AC dmg by 20%. Also medium lasors should be nerfed as legion dominates NCO's too much.

And btw HAM drake can only fit 2 bcu because it will run out of cpu. Not to mention if you fit 1 TE its going to be only 1 bcu which lowers dps even more. While cane can easily fit 4 gyros and use barrage.

STFU dude, dont give them ideas.
Good thing I skilled ACs to the max on both accounts, so HML nerf wont hit me so hard, but if they nerf ACs, I honestly will have nothing left.

My lovely Nighthawk is caught in the crossfire of this drake nonsense I train up a max skilled nighthawk and am having fun and bam, the CCP Nerfnaught fires at me. I can only hope that they adjust the field command ships in a timely manner and with an appropriate enough bonus considering the amount of skill points invested in these ships. Some information from the Devs would go a long way towards my mental health. I can fly Minny and Amarr ships, so its not like I am stuck, but I love the Nighthawk so much.

If HMLs are nerfed to come in line with other weapon systems of the same class, then remove Defenders from NPCs, or we'll fall even further behind than just -25% DPS. The amount of DPS I lose against 1,000,000ISK+ bounty rats is ridiculous, and the swarm of 3-6 Defender missiles I see swarming around them all the time just causes rage.

Failing that, change the +5% Kinetic damage to +5% Missile Damage in general, or missiles will become even more of a joke weapon system than they are now. Or make this change part of the buff you're going to give to HAMs and Torps, so we have an alternative, right?

OMG dreads have drones - nerf dreads.

Real problem is if CCP starts to listen to L4 farmers who have been spoiled with overpowered ships and weapons for too long.



You are comparing a cruiser and a pirate faction battleship? Ok.



All large weapons need help killing frigates. With the difference that most large weapons always miss orbiting frigates. All battleships rely on drones to clear frigates, this really should be no news to anyone familiar with this game.



I understand it's hard for you to imagine a situation where you need to consider things like distance and order of targets and pay attention to things instead of snoozing thru the game, but this is already reality to many players.

Don't send light drones out to 50km and you'll be fine :)

wow, did you really just call the removal of drones while adding more than 50% DPS to dreads a nerf??
if that is so, i wish CCP would 'nerf' all my ships.

atm i got me CNR built but thats a 2 bill isk ship that needs to be mission speicificaly tanked ...[..]

This obviously affects the drake and tengu equally for C2/C3s and III/IVs. Will you be moving to heavy assault missiles, a new ship, or changing your playstyle? I'm curious as to your responses.

Edit: Here's some interesting information to consider, comparing HMLs to other long-range cruiser weaponry.

The new mission Tengu will simple be the HAM Tengu, with a range of 70Km with 800 dps? Tengu is getting a Buff.

Well imo.

i didn't do the exact numbers but from what i did see, the ham tengu will not be able to deal with frigs any better than it currently does which means it will not be viable for LVL4, no matter the range/dps.

edit: please correct me if i'm wrong there. in fact, i would appreciate some math on post-patch HAMs vs. frigates.

Cruise missiles can't even kill an Elite cruiser

This may be a personal issue as I've had no real issues in cruise missile ships killing elite cruisers

I don't get CCP's recent push to homogenize everything. It's okay to have a "better" ship that costs millions of ISK to fit properly.

Not everything needs to be the same.

ok after reading about this nurf i have to say wasy to go ccp. Effectivly your are targeting 2 ships in this game with the Drake and Tengu. I mean its not like evryone who flys thes ships has spent 3 months training time and at least 2 billion in fittings for the ships. in all hounsty i have to aske ccp for a refund of the time i have spent, and the time i will have to spend on retraining and refitting a new set of ships now that this nerf is going to happen.

Im sorry if i seem angry but in the real world they dont nerf rich peoples income or collage students curiculem because some under privliaged kids did get ther shoot.

Yes it is and they will nerf the T3 hull too. They will nerf it hard.

Quoting CCP Ytterbium: " Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line."

Entertaining times ahead.

I really don't understand the need to nerf Heavy Missiles. That system just BLOWs when you aint blobbing in Pvp.

Nulltrash and their wannabes cried about getting blobbed by other nulltrash's Drake fleets.

CCP is embracing a new paradigm of listening to whinge-babies.

EVE gets just that bit dumber and easier so they can ***** more subs from the theme park crowd.

Fullstop, end-of, nothing more to see here.

Wait, so even after the nerf they still have the best damage, best range, easiest fitting, cost no Cap and don't suffer from tracking issues nearly as bad as the next best Medium sized Long Range weapons systems? On top of there being so many Missile ships with amazing bonuses?

Wow, i never realized how strong Heavies were.