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Missiles still viable or not

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Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4664	Posted - 2012.09.21 10:32:00 - [61] - Quote Mr Chili Palmer wrote: Typical trained into my tengu and quite comfortable in it, then read that heavy missiles are getting nerfed. As a casual player who mainly pve's is the nerf actually worth worrying about? if it is then what is the logical choice of ship to aim for next? i have partially trained gunnery skills and battleship skills. Start training HAMs now; prepare to replace your Rigor rigs with Hydraulic bay thrusters and Flares, consider how your fit will work with a tracking computer and maybe a tracking enhancer. By the time the change hits, you'll be able to modify your Tengu to a HAM configuration that will actually be a lot like your current HML config - maybe a little more raw DPS, maybe a little worse vs elite frigates, a few Km less range, but otherwise not much different at the end of the day. EDIT: and with T2 Rage ammo, probably quite a bit more raw DPS. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 4664	Posted - 2012.09.21 10:36:00 - [62] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: reamau wrote: Did I misread those dev notes? You'd think the entire race was being removed. I thought it was only HEAVY missiles getting nerfed... other than the TD part, but the OP here specifically said he PVE's. I'd think HAM tengu would fine, if you like the tengu- sure, the range would be less but by the time these (currenly only proposed) changes go into effect HAMs might have even more damage seperation. You may want to think about upsizing to battleship and using cruise missiles, especially if you have all the other various missile related skills trained. Would probably be a lot quicker than training lots of gun skills, plus would likely be similar to what you are already doing.... if you are doing C1/C2 then I realize you couldn't bring in a BS, but mission running should be fine. The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage. With the proposed TE/TC changes, Cruise missiles will be awesome for PvE. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players. Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Cede Forster Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore 92	Posted - 2012.09.21 11:01:00 - [63] - Quote Malcanis wrote: SmilingVagrant wrote: reamau wrote: Did I misread those dev notes? You'd think the entire race was being removed. I thought it was only HEAVY missiles getting nerfed... other than the TD part, but the OP here specifically said he PVE's. I'd think HAM tengu would fine, if you like the tengu- sure, the range would be less but by the time these (currenly only proposed) changes go into effect HAMs might have even more damage seperation. You may want to think about upsizing to battleship and using cruise missiles, especially if you have all the other various missile related skills trained. Would probably be a lot quicker than training lots of gun skills, plus would likely be similar to what you are already doing.... if you are doing C1/C2 then I realize you couldn't bring in a BS, but mission running should be fine. The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage. With the proposed TE/TC changes, Cruise missiles will be awesome for PvE. i am pretty sure they find a way to make all missile users equally screwed - just give it a chance
Nikolai Dostoyevski Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 47	Posted - 2012.09.21 17:44:00 - [64] - Quote Barrogh Habalu wrote: Why do people call "25% range nerf"? It's 25% flight time nerf and 8% flight speed buff, resulting in 19% range nerf. And that before factoring in improved missile dynamics CCP promised. Just to be precise. I personally think a 20-25% range nerf for HMLs and Cruise Missiles would be justified. Don't agree with the dmg nerf to HMLs, though. Cut off 25% range from HMLs and the HAMs become more appealing.
Speaker4 theDead Furian Necromongers 14	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:02:00 - [65] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Tom Gerard wrote: Totally going to be fine... 25% less tank 20% less gank 25% less range but a 11% bonus to range via a tracking enhancer is TOTALLY going to make up for it. The drake is now a BC and not a poor mans battleship. OP success. Yes, because it had BS type damage before...Right?....Right? Glad I don't fly that crap....Feel sorry for the newer players though, now they will just have to wait to train up skills to fly anything decent....
baltec1 Bat Country 2243	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:13:00 - [66] - Quote Speaker4 theDead wrote: Glad I don't fly that crap....Feel sorry for the newer players though, now they will just have to wait to train up skills to fly anything decent.... Yes, it gets low end BS damage, BS range with a BS tank. It is literally a baby battleship.
Ensign X 301	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:39:00 - [67] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: Mr Chili Palmer wrote: ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now? Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers. But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu.
baltec1 Bat Country 2244	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:40:00 - [68] - Quote Ensign X wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: Mr Chili Palmer wrote: ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now? Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers. But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu. Less DPS is just as bad for them
Ensign X 301	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:44:00 - [69] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: The problem with this is Cruise missiles are garbage. Cruise missiles are perfectly fine as is for PVE, and will become even better than they are now once this re-balance hits. No more T2 penalties, Tracking Enhancers or a Tracking Computer to improve their DPS application to smaller ships and better base stats on T2 missiles. So, yeah, Cruise missiles will be just fine for PVE.
Ensign X 302	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:49:00 - [70] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Less DPS is just as bad for them Will it be less DPS though? I'm really not sure since I'm terrible at math. I really don't believe the difference between a 3x BCS, 1x TE HAM Tengu vs. 4x BCS HML Tengu will be that large. You'll lose some range, certainly, as well as some DPS application to smaller, elite ships, but against everything cruiser sized and above, I'm certain the HAM Tengu will be just as good or better than the current HML Tengu.

Jason O'Neil Dark Falcon Operations 1	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:55:00 - [71] - Quote This nerf means those in tengus running sites actually have to play the game rather than picking a target and hitting F1. Put HAMs on your tengu, afterburner web and target painter and youll realise you were at nothing with the HMLs anyway.
Paul Oliver Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3466	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:57:00 - [72] - Quote Jason O'Neil wrote: This nerf means those in tengus running sites actually have to play the game rather than picking a target and hitting F1. Put HAMs on your tengu, afterburner web and target painter and youll realise you were at nothing with the HMLs anyway. One group's nerf is a community's balance. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine
baltec1 Bat Country 2246	Posted - 2012.09.21 18:58:00 - [73] - Quote Ensign X wrote: baltec1 wrote: Less DPS is just as bad for them Will it be less DPS though? I'm really not sure since I'm terrible at math. I really don't believe the difference between a 3x BCS, 1x TE HAM Tengu vs. 4x BCS HML Tengu will be that large. You'll lose some range, certainly, as well as some DPS application to smaller, elite ships, but against everything cruiser sized and above, I'm certain the HAM Tengu will be just as good or better than the current HML Tengu. Well I for one am counting on peoples lazyness. Rather than the more active HAM tengu I hope they will be going for more efficient battleships like back in the good old days.
Lord Ryan True Xero 620	Posted - 2012.09.21 19:14:00 - [74] - Quote IB4UGA Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes.
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 297	Posted - 2012.09.21 19:30:00 - [75] - Quote Nikolai Dostoyevski wrote: I personally think a 20-25% range nerf for HMLs and Cruise Missiles would be justified. Don't agree with the dmg nerf to HMLs, though. Cut off 25% range from HMLs and the HAMs become more appealing. I don't understand the logic of this conclusion. HM's would still have better damage application due to the GMP skill making up for a part of the DPS difference and it would still leave HM's with relatively close damage and a massive advantage in engagement window compared to HAM's
nat longshot solo and loveing it 97	Posted - 2012.09.21 19:48:00 - [76] - Quote now my 2 cents on the hml nerf. Sound like you tengu pilots that run level 4 are going to up to a bs. so deal with it i have trained t2 hml and ham's so hml were overpower vs other long range med weapons system and its about time.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 118	Posted - 2012.09.21 19:54:00 - [77] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Mr Chili Palmer wrote: Typical trained into my tengu and quite comfortable in it, then read that heavy missiles are getting nerfed. As a casual player who mainly pve's is the nerf actually worth worrying about? if it is then what is the logical choice of ship to aim for next? i have partially trained gunnery skills and battleship skills. Start training HAMs now; prepare to replace your Rigor rigs with Hydraulic bay thrusters and Flares, consider how your fit will work with a tracking computer and maybe a tracking enhancer. By the time the change hits, you'll be able to modify your Tengu to a HAM configuration that will actually be a lot like your current HML config - maybe a little more raw DPS, maybe a little worse vs elite frigates, a few Km less range, but otherwise not much different at the end of the day. EDIT: and with T2 Rage ammo, probably quite a bit more raw DPS. ^^ This. I switched to HAMs on my Tengu almost immediately; first flight showed me that HML Tengus just weren't my flavor. I've never looked back. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Pipa Porto 989	Posted - 2012.09.22 01:34:00 - [78] - Quote Ensign X wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: Mr Chili Palmer wrote: ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now? Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers. But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu. Marlona smoked it. Missionbears are most likely going to use TCs and spend more on tank than sacrifice any paper DPS. Hmmm, more expensive mission tengus to hunt... mmmm EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
Ensign X 302	Posted - 2012.09.22 01:41:00 - [79] - Quote Pipa Porto wrote: Ensign X wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Pipa Porto wrote: Mr Chili Palmer wrote: ok thanks for the replies, so as a backup what would be the best ship type to train up for now? Put HAMs on it and some tracking enhancers. But, but, but... his precious tank! How dare you ask him to use a mid slot for something other than the mwd and tank. Hang your head in shame! I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Tracking Enhancers are a low-slot module and thus would have zero effect on the tank of a Tengu. Marlona smoked it. Missionbears are most likely going to use TCs and spend more on tank than sacrifice any paper DPS. Hmmm, more expensive mission tengus to hunt... mmmm She smoked something, that's for sure. The only questions are, a) what did she smoke? and, b) why isn't she sharing? Protip: Tracking enhancers still aren't midslot items no matter how much you smoke.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 2434	Posted - 2012.09.22 02:45:00 - [80] - Quote Quote: Protip: Tracking enhancers still aren't midslot items no matter how much you smoke. We have a lot of very obtuse people in this thread that would rather get hung up on the mistaken use of the word Enhancer instead of Computer than actually recognize the point being made. If they want to get back to, or surpass, their previous levels of damage and range they can easily do so... but it will likely involve giving up some of their tank to do so. When you consider that the actual problem was the combination of long range, heavy damage AND a ridiculous tank I would say this is a rather elegant solution... particularly since it also will benefit other missile boats that desperately needed a way to enhance either their range or their ability to apply damage effectively vs various classes of ships. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.

Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 2435	Posted - 2012.09.22 03:06:00 - [81] - Quote As a side note, I know there is discussion of leaving Tracking Computers and Enhancers as they are and come up with similar modules that have the same effects as are being discussed but for missiles only. While I very much think that diversity and the need to make hard decisions about your fit is a good thing in EVE, in this particular case I would like to see these modules affect both guns and missiles. My reasoning is simple. They would go a looong way toward making split weapons system boats viable. This is an extremely worthy goal. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Pipa Porto 989	Posted - 2012.09.22 03:32:00 - [82] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: As a side note, I know there is discussion of leaving Tracking Computers and Enhancers as they are and come up with similar modules that have the same effects as are being discussed but for missiles only. While I very much think that diversity and the need to make hard decisions about your fit is a good thing in EVE, in this particular case I would like to see these modules affect both guns and missiles. My reasoning is simple. They would go a looong way toward making split weapons system boats viable. This is an extremely worthy goal. Halfway through your post I thought you were going to say your reasoning was "it doesn't matter because you don't use both at the same time." I had entirely forgotten about the potential of split weapon fits. Which I think just reinforces your point. ATM, I think most people use off weapon high slots as utility highs more often than they use them for other weapons. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
Cloora Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 103	Posted - 2012.09.22 04:20:00 - [83] - Quote Doddy wrote: Been playing this game since forever and i have seen firewalling pulled off precisely once. Its also something that works only against a pure missile fleet, and that such things exist tell you all you need to know. That just shows you are pretty limited in your PvP experiance. in large nullsec battles. We always know what the other fleet is bringing. We firewall ALL THE TIME against Tengus. CEO and Major ShareholderAPEX ConglomerateMaker of Starsi softdrinks and Torped-Os! Cereal http://www.altaholics.blogspot.com
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1507	Posted - 2012.09.22 04:48:00 - [84] - Quote Cloora wrote: Doddy wrote: Been playing this game since forever and i have seen firewalling pulled off precisely once. Its also something that works only against a pure missile fleet, and that such things exist tell you all you need to know. That just shows you are pretty limited in your PvP experiance. In large nullsec battles, we always know what the other fleet is bringing. We firewall ALL THE TIME against Tengus. For example: Firewalls notice the little explosions in between our fleet and the tengus? Thats the firewall ships running the smarties. mm, nice music. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Desert Ice78 Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us 156	Posted - 2012.09.22 13:01:00 - [85] - Quote Just had a peek in Jita, and the flogging of everyone's mission tengus has certainly commenced there. Don't know if this answers your question. I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
baltec1 Bat Country 2250	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:43:00 - [86] - Quote Desert Ice78 wrote: Just had a peek in Jita, and the flogging of everyone's mission tengus has certainly commenced there. Don't know if this answers your question. What I want to know is what they are replacing them with and if I have that BPO.
Skydell Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 293	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:26:00 - [87] - Quote CCP fail as they so often do. If they wanted to "nerf" the Heavy Missile and the Drake they should have made them more expensive to make. What makes HM Drakes glory, isn't that they are effective but that they are cheap and effective. There are plenty of other cheap alternatives but they aren't as effective. So rather than making the HM Drake less effective, make it more expensive. T2 Heavy Missile sells at 850K in Jita. No other T2 medium sells that cheap. Missiles were supposed to be expensive. That was the mantra back when EVE was on track. Now they cost less than bullets.
baltec1 Bat Country 2250	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:42:00 - [88] - Quote Skydell wrote: CCP fail as they so often do. If they wanted to "nerf" the Heavy Missile and the Drake they should have made them more expensive to make. What makes HM Drakes glory, isn't that they are effective but that they are cheap and effective. There are plenty of other cheap alternatives but they aren't as effective. So rather than making the HM Drake less effective, make it more expensive. T2 Heavy Missile sells at 850K in Jita. No other T2 medium sells that cheap. Missiles were supposed to be expensive. That was the mantra back when EVE was on track. Now they cost less than bullets. We blob ships that cost 70 billion. Your idea would work just as well.
Pipa Porto 991	Posted - 2012.09.22 21:31:00 - [89] - Quote Skydell wrote: CCP fail as they so often do. If they wanted to "nerf" the Heavy Missile and the Drake they should have made them more expensive to make. What makes HM Drakes glory, isn't that they are effective but that they are cheap and effective. There are plenty of other cheap alternatives but they aren't as effective. So rather than making the HM Drake less effective, make it more expensive. T2 Heavy Missile sells at 850K in Jita. No other T2 medium sells that cheap. Missiles were supposed to be expensive. That was the mantra back when EVE was on track. Now they cost less than bullets. Cost is not a valid balancing factor. See: Titans EvE: Everyone vs Everyone -RubyPorto
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1507	Posted - 2012.09.23 02:10:00 - [90] - Quote baltec1 wrote: We blob ships that cost 70 billion. Your idea would work just as well. I love the super rifter blob. Not that I see them often, heh. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm



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