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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:31:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 18/08/2011 09:31:16
Originally by: malaire You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.
EVEmon can send me an email/SMS notification when I have free room in my skill queue. BOT!!! BAN!!! ---
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Valari Nala Zena
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.08.18 10:41:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Valari Nala Zena on 18/08/2011 10:42:03 bots: Software applications that run automated tasks.
It's illegal to use when the bot gives you an advantage in the EVE Online client itself.
However, as far as i know you can use all the bots/programs you want on the exported market data files, because it doesn't have anything to do with the EVE client.
If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal.
But as far as i know, it doesn't.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.08.18 10:44:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Miss Rabblt i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool".
Tools like this have been petitioned b4: reading from cache is not forbidden.
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Monstress
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Posted - 2011.08.18 10:47:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Miss Rabblt i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool".
For example: tool for scanning local for presence of neutrals of reds. Is it bot? I'm pretty sure almost 100% of players will say so. But this is "just a helper tool" like any market scanning utilities Eve players use. So would be good to get strong and clear rules to determine exact kind of this "little helper tool".
The question would be a matter of how it determines the presence of locals and/or differentiates between standings. There's only two ways to accomplish this, which I think are both cause for ban (Python injection and/or combination of OCR/image recognition).
This particular topic discusses the use of the JavaScript features provided by CCP themselves in the in-game browser. I think your example would probably not be considered legitimate, probably not even comparable.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:00:00 -
[35]
I use an android tool that basically does the same thing without all the jiberish. I can look up buy and sell orders anywhere in eve through a few clicks on my trusty android and the data is far more accurate than anything else online..
Is it cheating? I don't think so. It doesn't buy or sell for me, it just hands me the information in a compact medium thats easy to read so I can make well informed marketing decesions without spending hours in tedious boring auto pilot flying or through the use of heavy handed application that lag up my PC.
Botting really refers more to automatic actions in game like mining, buying and selling stuff etc.. which Im against. But information access... no I dont consider that botting.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:17:00 -
[36]
Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 11:23:44
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal.
This does "automate actions that you normally do manually", i.e. checking details of market items.
However it doesn't need to simulate clicks since javascript API provides function for showing market details of an item. Also it doesn't need to click "Export". Just opening the details-tab for item puts that information into cache where it can be read by external program.
That javascript API is usefull for things like this:http://evref.com/?more-powergrid (Those green-triangle links use same javascript command than what EVE Mentat uses, but EVE Mentat uses that in a loop, repeatedly.)
edit: better explanation
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Valari Nala Zena
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:36:00 -
[37]
Originally by: malaire Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 11:23:44
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal.
This does "automate actions that you normally do manually", i.e. checking details of market items.
However it doesn't need to simulate clicks since javascript API provides function for showing market details of an item. Also it doesn't need to click "Export". Just opening the details-tab for item puts that information into cache where it can be read by external program.
That javascript API is usefull for things like this:http://evref.com/?more-powergrid (Those green-triangle links use same javascript command than what EVE Mentat uses, but EVE Mentat uses that in a loop, repeatedly.)
edit: better explanation
i said: "automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client"
As far as i know you can also use bots or spreadsheets or java or whatever you want with the API results or exported market data.
If you start using bots interacting in the game client itself then it's illegal.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:42:00 -
[38]
Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Valari Nala Zena i said: "automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client"
As far as i know you can also use bots or spreadsheets or java or whatever you want with the API results or exported market data.
If you start using bots interacting in the game client itself then it's illegal.
Exactly. Javascript API works in IGB in the EVE Online client.
Normal API calls (which you can use outside the client) doesn't allow access to local market orders.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Thornat Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal.
API does NOT provide that data.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.18 11:59:00 -
[41]
Well it must, I'm looking at the entire Eve market on my Android right now. Perhaps its drawing it from somewhere else than. No idea.. I use Aura. I assumed that it got its data from API.. I wonder where it comes from.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Seatec Astronomy
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:01:00 -
[42]
Edited by: KaarBaak on 18/08/2011 12:08:25 Eve-metrics, before it shutdown used to do something similar. There was a data uploader that you could set to automatically go through the market checking prices (no user interaction necessary once initiated). It used the data to upload to it's site. It was a little annoying because it would put focus on the market window with each check (5-10sec).
AFAIK, it was never considered a violation and sounds similar to the OPs app.
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He who breaks the law shall be punished back to the House of Pain. -- Sayer of the Law |
Cunane Jeran
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:04:00 -
[43]
I think there is a fine line between a helpful tool and a bot.
This hasn't crossed that line. If it also updated orders or gave you a SMS/Email everytime your order wasn't the cheapest/highest whatever, without you needing to look at the data yourself, then yes it would be a bot. At the moment, its a useful tool.
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Monstress
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:11:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Cunane Jeran ...or gave you a SMS/Email everytime your order wasn't the cheapest/highest...
By using the wallet API to reference your own market orders, combined with the market cache data and the IGB's existing JavaScript features, this is already possible. This is what the OP is debating against.
I personally disagree and support being able to do this!
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Dane El
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:30:00 -
[45]
Heh, should have read the documentation for Evementat when I downloaded it. I setup that process manually by adding all the items I trade to my market quick bar then quickly click through them before running a cache import. Bottom line is my process was just as fast as the alleged "bot" but required a 60 second click fest to gain the data.
Your concern could be largely alleviated if the eve market browser would highlight your own orders. That's the big gain from mentat, the ability to quickly see what orders you need to review without dredging through them all manually. I'll often have 3 - 5 sell orders in the same region at different stations. It used to be painful to locate all those stations in the market browser and then compare them to my own orders. Now its fairly painless to see where I stand.
I see this is a good thing (its available to everyone) as it means less time staring at spreadsheets gathering data and more time to do other things that are actually fun and involve spaceships.
Now your assumption it'll somehow be connected to a system that repeatedly runs the process and sends notifications to an AFK player. That's the illegal part. But the same argument could be made against the Eve client itself. It too provides data to many bots. We probably need to ban the client too...
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Uuali
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Posted - 2011.08.18 12:48:00 -
[46]
Are we bot, or are we human?
My understanding of a bot is that a person does not have to be at the keyboard and physically clicky click things.
That being said I use a bot too. My wife and kids. lol!
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Valari Nala Zena
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:35:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Valari Nala Zena on 18/08/2011 13:39:46
Doesn't http://eve-central.com/ get the prices in the same way?
I believe it works though a program that people download, the exported market data is automatically analyzed and updated on the site. People still have to manually check each item and press export to get the market data, the program does the rest.
The more people use it, the more accurate it becomes.
You can check prices from every region and has been around for a long long time. And i don't think i've ever seen a post it being illegal. API data can be several hours outdated though, i'm guessing that depends how recent people have exported market data.
I actually use eve-central with google docs to fetch data from it (importxml), to use in my mining operation calculator spreadsheet.
I only have to input the ore that has been mined, compressed or not, raw or minerals, input fleet members and time participated.
Based on participation, refining skills, total ore mined and jita prices, it calculates the payout for each participant fairly accurate.
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daddys helper
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:40:00 -
[48]
so after reading this thread I now understand.
OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair.
the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
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Kaomond
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: malaire
Originally by: Thornat Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal.
API does NOT provide that data.
Yes it does, however it only updates the database attached to your API when you physically open the market screen and only for the region you are market browsing.
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daddys helper
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:56:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Dane El
Now your assumption it'll somehow be connected to a system that repeatedly runs the process and sends notifications to an AFK player. That's the illegal part. But the same argument could be made against the Eve client itself. It too provides data to many bots. We probably need to ban the client too...
people really need to understand what a bot is especially what makes a bot good or bad.
a 3rd party program that replicates control input to the client is a bad bot. a 3rd party application that extracts static data from the server either directly or via the client is an ok bot.
you can't automate the playing process with a data harvester, and secondly any 3rd party application that uses the data to alert the owner or examine that data is not a bad bot either, well it could be a "bad bot" depending on your outlook on life, but to CCP its not having any interaction with the game client or servers in a way that violates the eula or tos. why? well kiddies (this is the important bit) CCP CAN NOT HAVE ANY SAY ABOUT ANY PROGRAM YOU OWN THAT DOES NOT DIRECTLY INTERFACE WITH THE CLIENT FOR THE PURPOSES OF REMOTE OR AUTOMATED CONTROL OF THE CLIENT.
sending off a sms based on whatever data conditions you can think of using has NOTHING to do with eve or the ability to control eve.
thats like saying if I have a script that checks server status and sends me an alarm the second the server is up after downtime that its a bot and gives an unfair advantage. hell I don't even have to open the client to see if the server is up... damn that means I can get in 75% faster than other players at the end of downtime.
bottom line is the OP is butthurt about him or a buddy getting banned for botting and now has some sort of axe to grind with all 3rd party programs.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 14:22:00 -
[51]
Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand.
OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair.
the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
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Suddenly Derp
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:07:00 -
[52]
Originally by: malaire Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
So use the totally legit Eve Mentat like your competitors do.
Your butthurt trader tears are delicious.
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Kaomond
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: malaire
Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand.
OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair.
the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
To be honest that's a bit like owning a convenience store and complaining that the bigger chains are unfair competition because they can order their stock online, the fact that you have equal oportunity to use the same system they do is kind of the defiinition of fair.
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Dirk Decibel
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: malaire
Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand.
OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair.
the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
Get used to it, ppl with no life have more time to spend on EVE, that's unfair competition too
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:40:00 -
[55]
I guess I should be banned for writing scripts that calculate the cost of ships then?
It would take hours to calculate the daily cost/tax/profit of building ships using a calculator.
And what about the people that just use a spreadsheet? Still clearly an advantage. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:41:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kaomond
Originally by: malaire Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
To be honest that's a bit like owning a convenience store and complaining that the bigger chains are unfair competition because they can order their stock online, the fact that you have equal oportunity to use the same system they do is kind of the defiinition of fair.
Actually, its just the opposite. I'm programmer also, and I could easily take advantage of this javascript-botting. But that feels like unfair advantage, since other traders can't take advantage of it. At least I don't know of any good trading program.
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:53:00 -
[57]
Originally by: malaire I'm programmer also, and I could easily take advantage of this javascript-botting. But that feels like unfair advantage, since other traders can't take advantage of it.
You don't need to be a developer to automate the process of monitoring market orders, just use the software that is freely available in the internet.
What is next?, banning of people who use spreadsheets to calculate production costs and profits, because it's unfair to the people who don't know how to do it or are just to lazy to use them.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:59:00 -
[58]
Originally by: daddys helper
people really need to understand what a bot is especially what makes a bot good or bad.
a 3rd party program that replicates control input to the client is a bad bot. a 3rd party application that extracts static data from the server either directly or via the client is an ok bot.
so local watcher-tool which will play ring when some nonblue enters is ok then. good to know because this 3d party software only grabs screen and does OCR there..... No control to client. And almost no conenction to client (after all you only scan screen area, hehe)
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CCP Sreegs
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:01:00 -
[59]
We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. |
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.18 17:07:00 -
[60]
CCP Sreegs! You are back to posting! How have you been? We miss you on the anti-botting threads....
How goes the war?
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