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CCP allows some market bots?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 04:42:00 - [1] The bot I'm talking about is included e.g. in EVE Mentat. How it works: 1) start EVE Mentat and its IGB addon 2) open the local webpage created by EVE Mentat in IGB and click single button to start the bot 3) bot goes through all the items you are trading with and exports local market orders for each item. This can take hours and thousands of clicks, but bot does all the work while you can leave the computer and come back later. 4) you can now use all the exported data in EVE Mentat to analyze it. I've heard that this bot is used by other trading programs also, and I've seen claims that GMs have said it is allowed. Is it really true that CCP allows some bots while disallowing others?
daddys helper	Posted - 2011.08.18 04:49:00 - [2] are you serious? its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market. all it can do is pull data from eve. please delete this post and biomass your character
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 05:01:00 - [3] Originally by: daddys helper are you serious? its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market. all it can do is pull data from eve. please delete this post and biomass your character So you dont understand the importance of data mining? This particular info (local market orders) can't be exported via API, and is extremely important for market analysing.
Judge Ment BOOM BOOM POW	Posted - 2011.08.18 05:12:00 - [4] Dude CCP Is marketing EVE ONLINE.. and scamming u all :) Trolling a good thread, one at a time ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.08.18 05:40:00 - [5] Originally by: malaire Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 05:15:39 Originally by: daddys helper are you serious? its data mining, the same stinking thing you do with the API it can't place sell orders for you, it can't manipulate the market. all it can do is pull data from eve. please delete this post and biomass your character So you dont understand the importance of data mining? This particular info (local market orders) can't be exported via API, and is extremely important for market analysing. edit: Just to stress the importance of this: With only 64 accounts player/corp/alliance could use this kind of bot to create database of all market orders from all 64 regions, and keep it uptodate. This would be huge advantage since there is no way ingame to compare market prices across all regions. Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports.
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:01:00 - [6] Originally by: malaire The bot I'm talking about is included e.g. in EVE Mentat. How it works: 1) start EVE Mentat and its IGB addon 2) open the local webpage created by EVE Mentat in IGB and click single button to start the bot 3) bot goes through all the items you are trading with and exports local market orders for each item. This can take hours and thousands of clicks, but bot does all the work while you can leave the computer and come back later. 4) you can now use all the exported data in EVE Mentat to analyze it. I've heard that this bot is used by other trading programs also, and I've seen claims that GMs have said it is allowed. Is it really true that CCP allows some bots while disallowing others? The bot doesn't actually do any trading for you or on-screen recognition to manipulate your client in any way. Sounds like all it does is make use of the IGB JavaScript API to "View Market Details" of all known market items to grab a snapshot of the prices for your current region. Don't see anything wrong with that.
Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:05:00 - [7] Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 18/08/2011 06:05:46 Its not a bot its a tool for data mining. It just simplifies the process. Same way the Evemon will calculate the best training path or attributes. The program doesn't actually automate the trading process itself. And also I'm very ****ed they released this AFTER I stopped doing trading.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports. That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours. If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:09:00 - [9] EVE Mentat just scans market related to your active orders. Here is video with demonstration how it works. Implemented using java script functions provided by CCP. Nothing criminal. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:12:00 - [10] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports. That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours. If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order. I'm not sure it's even possible to distinguish the ownership of orders obtained from whatever data is gathered from the market details. I suppose maybe it would be possible if you cross reference the order IDs to orders in your wallet API. I've never checked this out, but it certainly is an interesting point worth exploring.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Its not a bot its a tool for data mining. It just simplifies the process. Same way the Evemon will calculate the best training path or attributes. The program doesn't actually automate the trading process itself. Evemon cant tell you when someone makes better order than your order. This bot can. Just think about it: You start this bot with appropriate external application and leave it running. When someone makes better order than what you have, you get email/SMS notification to your cellphone and then you come to your computer, update your order, and leave bot running while you do something else. You could be doing whatever you want, just as long as you have quick access to your computer which runs EVE, to update orders whenever you get notification that order needs updating. This is completely different what traders normally needs to do, i.e. manually be present on computer and check for competitors updating their orders.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Monstress I'm not sure it's even possible to distinguish the ownership of orders obtained from whatever data is gathered from the market details. I suppose maybe it would be possible if you cross reference the order IDs to orders in your wallet API. I've never checked this out, but it certainly is an interesting point worth exploring. It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Thart It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders. Hah, that's awesome. Thanks for clearing that up :)
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Monstress Originally by: Thart It's quite possible to lookup your own orders in market data. They have the same IDs. But you cannot distinguish the ownership of the rest orders. Hah, that's awesome. Thanks for clearing that up :) Hey, dont get any ideas... This botting needs to be banned, not exploited.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 06:56:00 - [15] Edited by: Thart on 18/08/2011 07:04:11 malaire, do you use market aggregation services such as EVE-central and others? Most of them along with cache reading tool use web-based continuos scanners. They will not work properly without such functionality. From the other side I guess the real trade bots are written with more complex technologies, and java script based market browsing makes a really small contribution to the whole system. I think you have started your protest with the wrong direction :) ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Thart malaire, do you use market aggregation services such as EVE-central and others? Most of them along with cache reading tool use web-based continuos scanners. They will not work properly without such functionality. From the other side I guess the real trade bots are written with more complex technologies, and java script based market browsing makes a really small contribution to the whole system. I think you have started your protest from the wrong side :) Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it.
Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Brooks Puuntai on 18/08/2011 07:14:07 So long as it doesn't directly interact with the game, I don't really see what the issue is. All its doing is parsing the same information you can do yourself... Just faster
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:16:00 - [18] Originally by: malaire Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it. Some technologies cannot be supressed. Breaking a small (and useful for most players!) part of them doesn't make sense. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
RaTTuS BIG Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:16:00 - [19] if in doubt - petition it Join BIG
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:51:00 - [20] Nothing illegal in reading the cache files.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:52:00 - [21] Originally by: RaTTuS if in doubt - petition it As I mentioned in OP, I've seen claims that this has been petitioned and GMs have approved this - but just to be sure I did make a petition. If this is allowed, then I'm going to make proof-of-concept bot which does automatic notifications, to make it clear how stupid it is to allow this. And if this has never been allowed, then according to rules, creator of e.g. EVE Mentat and all other programs using this exploit should be permabanned, and all users of such programs should get at least 14 day ban (including me, since I did test EVE Mentat shortly).
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 07:56:00 - [22] Originally by: dexington Nothing illegal in reading the cache files. Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:04:00 - [23] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington Nothing illegal in reading the cache files. Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem. As long as the player is the one updating the market orders it's okay.
Elanor Gaiser	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:04:00 - [24] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Except it's not that easy. There are 5621 market items (according eve-central). Checking each item takes couple seconds so say 2 seconds each. So checking all those items would take just over 3 hours. If you wanted to check them on every region you could probably use several clients at once, but still the information would be severely outdated by the time the process is finished. You'd need to be running 200 clients just to get hourly reports. That is true, however external application which creates the webpage can control in which order items are checked. If you only have 100 items of high importance, you could update them every few minutes. And then update other items every few hours. If this really is allowed, it still is huge advantage. Using API you can only check your own orders, and only once per hour I think. Using this javascript-bot you can check 30 orders per minute. You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order. Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Elanor Gaiser Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data. And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed. Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.)
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Thart Originally by: malaire Any use of bots should be banned, even for "usefull" sites like EVE-central. If that means no market aggregation sites, then so be it. Some technologies cannot be supressed. Breaking a small (and useful for most players!) part of them doesn't make sense. There are reasons for EVE being divided into several regions, and that you can't see market orders for other regions than your local region. In my opinion automated market aggregation sites do not belong to EVE.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:08:00 - [27] It seems that this is a kind of religious bias. People never stop using tools which makes EVE better (I don't mean illegal tools). Keep wasting your time. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Scoutar II	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:19:00 - [28] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington Nothing illegal in reading the cache files. Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem. So it's the fault of EVE Mentat that people could abuse it? It's similar to file sharing (eg. torrents), the actual software and technology is perfectly legal, but how some people choose to use it not so much. You can't ban everything on the assumption it -could- be used negatively, when plenty of people may be using it legitimately.
SkuxNZ	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:21:00 - [29] ^ wrong char Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington Nothing illegal in reading the cache files. Just reading cache files isn't the problem. But when combined with javascript which automatically adds new information to cache without player being present on computer - that is a problem. So it's the fault of EVE Mentat that people could abuse it? It's similar to file sharing (eg. torrents), the actual software and technology is perfectly legal, but how some people choose to use it not so much. You can't ban everything on the assumption it -could- be used negatively, when plenty of people may be using it legitimately.
Miss Rabblt	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:31:00 - [30] i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool". For example: tool for scanning local for presence of neutrals of reds. Is it bot? I'm pretty sure almost 100% of players will say so. But this is "just a helper tool" like any market scanning utilities Eve players use. So would be good to get strong and clear rules to determine exact kind of this "little helper tool".
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:31:00 - [31] Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 18/08/2011 09:31:16 Originally by: malaire You could be checking 30 most important orders every minute, and have external application email/SMS you notification within minute when someone makes better order. EVEmon can send me an email/SMS notification when I have free room in my skill queue. BOT!!! BAN!!! ---
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.08.18 10:41:00 - [32] Edited by: Valari Nala Zena on 18/08/2011 10:42:03 bots: Software applications that run automated tasks. It's illegal to use when the bot gives you an advantage in the EVE Online client itself. However, as far as i know you can use all the bots/programs you want on the exported market data files, because it doesn't have anything to do with the EVE client. If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal. But as far as i know, it doesn't.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.18 10:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Miss Rabblt i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool". Tools like this have been petitioned b4: reading from cache is not forbidden.
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.18 10:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Miss Rabblt i guess it would be good to get GM response here. This is really interesting question what is "bot" and what it "helping tool". For example: tool for scanning local for presence of neutrals of reds. Is it bot? I'm pretty sure almost 100% of players will say so. But this is "just a helper tool" like any market scanning utilities Eve players use. So would be good to get strong and clear rules to determine exact kind of this "little helper tool". The question would be a matter of how it determines the presence of locals and/or differentiates between standings. There's only two ways to accomplish this, which I think are both cause for ban (Python injection and/or combination of OCR/image recognition). This particular topic discusses the use of the JavaScript features provided by CCP themselves in the in-game browser. I think your example would probably not be considered legitimate, probably not even comparable.
Thornat	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:00:00 - [35] I use an android tool that basically does the same thing without all the jiberish. I can look up buy and sell orders anywhere in eve through a few clicks on my trusty android and the data is far more accurate than anything else online.. Is it cheating? I don't think so. It doesn't buy or sell for me, it just hands me the information in a compact medium thats easy to read so I can make well informed marketing decesions without spending hours in tedious boring auto pilot flying or through the use of heavy handed application that lag up my PC. Botting really refers more to automatic actions in game like mining, buying and selling stuff etc.. which Im against. But information access... no I dont consider that botting.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:17:00 - [36] Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 11:23:44 Originally by: Valari Nala Zena If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal. This does "automate actions that you normally do manually", i.e. checking details of market items. However it doesn't need to simulate clicks since javascript API provides function for showing market details of an item. Also it doesn't need to click "Export". Just opening the details-tab for item puts that information into cache where it can be read by external program. That javascript API is usefull for things like this:http://evref.com/?more-powergrid (Those green-triangle links use same javascript command than what EVE Mentat uses, but EVE Mentat uses that in a loop, repeatedly.) edit: better explanation
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:36:00 - [37] Originally by: malaire Edited by: malaire on 18/08/2011 11:23:44 Originally by: Valari Nala Zena If the program automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client, then it's illegal. If evementat is clicking the market items and clicking export in EVE, then it would be considered illegal. This does "automate actions that you normally do manually", i.e. checking details of market items. However it doesn't need to simulate clicks since javascript API provides function for showing market details of an item. Also it doesn't need to click "Export". Just opening the details-tab for item puts that information into cache where it can be read by external program. That javascript API is usefull for things like this:http://evref.com/?more-powergrid (Those green-triangle links use same javascript command than what EVE Mentat uses, but EVE Mentat uses that in a loop, repeatedly.) edit: better explanation i said: "automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client" As far as i know you can also use bots or spreadsheets or java or whatever you want with the API results or exported market data. If you start using bots interacting in the game client itself then it's illegal.
Thornat	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:42:00 - [38] Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:46:00 - [39] Originally by: Valari Nala Zena i said: "automates actions that you normally do manually in the EVE Online client" As far as i know you can also use bots or spreadsheets or java or whatever you want with the API results or exported market data. If you start using bots interacting in the game client itself then it's illegal. Exactly. Javascript API works in IGB in the EVE Online client. Normal API calls (which you can use outside the client) doesn't allow access to local market orders.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Thornat Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal. API does NOT provide that data.
Thornat	Posted - 2011.08.18 11:59:00 - [41] Well it must, I'm looking at the entire Eve market on my Android right now. Perhaps its drawing it from somewhere else than. No idea.. I use Aura. I assumed that it got its data from API.. I wonder where it comes from.
KaarBaak Minmatar Seatec Astronomy	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:01:00 - [42] Edited by: KaarBaak on 18/08/2011 12:08:25 Eve-metrics, before it shutdown used to do something similar. There was a data uploader that you could set to automatically go through the market checking prices (no user interaction necessary once initiated). It used the data to upload to it's site. It was a little annoying because it would put focus on the market window with each check (5-10sec). AFAIK, it was never considered a violation and sounds similar to the OPs app. . He who breaks the law shall be punished back to the House of Pain. -- Sayer of the Law
Cunane Jeran Gallente	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:04:00 - [43] I think there is a fine line between a helpful tool and a bot. This hasn't crossed that line. If it also updated orders or gave you a SMS/Email everytime your order wasn't the cheapest/highest whatever, without you needing to look at the data yourself, then yes it would be a bot. At the moment, its a useful tool.
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:11:00 - [44] Originally by: Cunane Jeran ...or gave you a SMS/Email everytime your order wasn't the cheapest/highest... By using the wallet API to reference your own market orders, combined with the market cache data and the IGB's existing JavaScript features, this is already possible. This is what the OP is debating against. I personally disagree and support being able to do this!
Dane El	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:30:00 - [45] Heh, should have read the documentation for Evementat when I downloaded it. I setup that process manually by adding all the items I trade to my market quick bar then quickly click through them before running a cache import. Bottom line is my process was just as fast as the alleged "bot" but required a 60 second click fest to gain the data. Your concern could be largely alleviated if the eve market browser would highlight your own orders. That's the big gain from mentat, the ability to quickly see what orders you need to review without dredging through them all manually. I'll often have 3 - 5 sell orders in the same region at different stations. It used to be painful to locate all those stations in the market browser and then compare them to my own orders. Now its fairly painless to see where I stand. I see this is a good thing (its available to everyone) as it means less time staring at spreadsheets gathering data and more time to do other things that are actually fun and involve spaceships. Now your assumption it'll somehow be connected to a system that repeatedly runs the process and sends notifications to an AFK player. That's the illegal part. But the same argument could be made against the Eve client itself. It too provides data to many bots. We probably need to ban the client too...
Uuali	Posted - 2011.08.18 12:48:00 - [46] Are we bot, or are we human? My understanding of a bot is that a person does not have to be at the keyboard and physically clicky click things. That being said I use a bot too. My wife and kids. lol!
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:35:00 - [47] Edited by: Valari Nala Zena on 18/08/2011 13:39:46 Doesn't http://eve-central.com/ get the prices in the same way? I believe it works though a program that people download, the exported market data is automatically analyzed and updated on the site. People still have to manually check each item and press export to get the market data, the program does the rest. The more people use it, the more accurate it becomes. You can check prices from every region and has been around for a long long time. And i don't think i've ever seen a post it being illegal. API data can be several hours outdated though, i'm guessing that depends how recent people have exported market data. I actually use eve-central with google docs to fetch data from it (importxml), to use in my mining operation calculator spreadsheet. I only have to input the ore that has been mined, compressed or not, raw or minerals, input fleet members and time participated. Based on participation, refining skills, total ore mined and jita prices, it calculates the payout for each participant fairly accurate.
daddys helper	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:40:00 - [48] so after reading this thread I now understand. OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair. the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway.
Kaomond	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:43:00 - [49] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Thornat Ya as far as I know using the API is legal and thats how my android app gets the information. I don't think its considered a bot. But it does give me information that would not really be possible to get in the actual client. I mean when you look at orders you see only whats in your region and flying around checking all the prices in Eve would take so long that by the time you did it all the data would be irrelevant. Having a birds eyeview of the entire market is definitly an advantage but again since the API provides the data unless I'm grossly mistaken its approved and perfectly legal. API does NOT provide that data. Yes it does, however it only updates the database attached to your API when you physically open the market screen and only for the region you are market browsing.
daddys helper	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:56:00 - [50] Originally by: Dane El Now your assumption it'll somehow be connected to a system that repeatedly runs the process and sends notifications to an AFK player. That's the illegal part. But the same argument could be made against the Eve client itself. It too provides data to many bots. We probably need to ban the client too... people really need to understand what a bot is especially what makes a bot good or bad. a 3rd party program that replicates control input to the client is a bad bot. a 3rd party application that extracts static data from the server either directly or via the client is an ok bot. you can't automate the playing process with a data harvester, and secondly any 3rd party application that uses the data to alert the owner or examine that data is not a bad bot either, well it could be a "bad bot" depending on your outlook on life, but to CCP its not having any interaction with the game client or servers in a way that violates the eula or tos. why? well kiddies (this is the important bit) CCP CAN NOT HAVE ANY SAY ABOUT ANY PROGRAM YOU OWN THAT DOES NOT DIRECTLY INTERFACE WITH THE CLIENT FOR THE PURPOSES OF REMOTE OR AUTOMATED CONTROL OF THE CLIENT. sending off a sms based on whatever data conditions you can think of using has NOTHING to do with eve or the ability to control eve. thats like saying if I have a script that checks server status and sends me an alarm the second the server is up after downtime that its a bot and gives an unfair advantage. hell I don't even have to open the client to see if the server is up... damn that means I can get in 75% faster than other players at the end of downtime. bottom line is the OP is butthurt about him or a buddy getting banned for botting and now has some sort of axe to grind with all 3rd party programs.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 14:22:00 - [51] Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand. OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair. the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway. Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition.
Suddenly Derp	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:07:00 - [52] Originally by: malaire Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition. So use the totally legit Eve Mentat like your competitors do. Your butthurt trader tears are delicious.
Kaomond	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:30:00 - [53] Originally by: malaire Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand. OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair. the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway. Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition. To be honest that's a bit like owning a convenience store and complaining that the bigger chains are unfair competition because they can order their stock online, the fact that you have equal oportunity to use the same system they do is kind of the defiinition of fair.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:30:00 - [54] Originally by: malaire Originally by: daddys helper so after reading this thread I now understand. OP is butthurt alt of a butthurt botter who got banned and is now grasping at straws to try and make some sort of halfassed argument about the rules of botting being unfair. the "all botting must be banned" part was the giveaway. Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition. Get used to it, ppl with no life have more time to spend on EVE, that's unfair competition too
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:40:00 - [55] I guess I should be banned for writing scripts that calculate the cost of ships then? It would take hours to calculate the daily cost/tax/profit of building ships using a calculator. And what about the people that just use a spreadsheet? Still clearly an advantage. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Kaomond Originally by: malaire Actually, I'm just a trader who doesn't like unfair competition. To be honest that's a bit like owning a convenience store and complaining that the bigger chains are unfair competition because they can order their stock online, the fact that you have equal oportunity to use the same system they do is kind of the defiinition of fair. Actually, its just the opposite. I'm programmer also, and I could easily take advantage of this javascript-botting. But that feels like unfair advantage, since other traders can't take advantage of it. At least I don't know of any good trading program.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:53:00 - [57] Originally by: malaire I'm programmer also, and I could easily take advantage of this javascript-botting. But that feels like unfair advantage, since other traders can't take advantage of it. You don't need to be a developer to automate the process of monitoring market orders, just use the software that is freely available in the internet. What is next?, banning of people who use spreadsheets to calculate production costs and profits, because it's unfair to the people who don't know how to do it or are just to lazy to use them.
Miss Rabblt	Posted - 2011.08.18 15:59:00 - [58] Originally by: daddys helper people really need to understand what a bot is especially what makes a bot good or bad. a 3rd party program that replicates control input to the client is a bad bot. a 3rd party application that extracts static data from the server either directly or via the client is an ok bot. so local watcher-tool which will play ring when some nonblue enters is ok then. good to know because this 3d party software only grabs screen and does OCR there..... No control to client. And almost no conenction to client (after all you only scan screen area, hehe)

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:01:00 - [59] We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client.

Vincent Athena	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:07:00 - [60] CCP Sreegs! You are back to posting! How have you been? We miss you on the anti-botting threads.... How goes the war?

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:10:00 - [61] Edited by: CCP Sreegs on 18/08/2011 17:10:40 Originally by: Vincent Athena CCP Sreegs! You are back to posting! How have you been? We miss you on the anti-botting threads.... How goes the war? I've been travelling and on vacation. Pollux has been working on a series of blogs related to the subject and responding to questions about those. If you can find the Eve Vegas presentation there are some numbers and figures given in that presentation related to effectiveness. :) :edit: It was hosted on EVE Radio I believe

Quacka Minmatar Dark Tree Industries	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:11:00 - [62] Ok this wont end until someone agrees with OP so I will. OP Your right. Its a bot, and CCP allows it. Now go be free and enjoy the advantage!
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:35:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Sreegs We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. CCP Sreegs, could you give concrete comments regarding EVE Mentat's functionality before posting the blog? Does the tool conforms EULA or not? ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool

CCP Sreegs	Posted - 2011.08.18 17:37:00 - [64] Originally by: Thart Originally by: CCP Sreegs We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. CCP Sreegs, could you give concrete comments regarding EVE Mentat's functionality before posting the blog? Does the tool conforms EULA or not? We will give concrete comments regarding what constitutes a violating application which should be pretty clear. Let's visit the issue once I've actually seen the blog. We know we're going to have to address these things and I can either guess at them today in one-offs or have a process in place to deal with them when we're ready.

Hakaru Ishiwara Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.08.18 18:38:00 - [65] Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Thart Originally by: CCP Sreegs We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. CCP Sreegs, could you give concrete comments regarding EVE Mentat's functionality before posting the blog? Does the tool conforms EULA or not? We will give concrete comments regarding what constitutes a violating application which should be pretty clear. Let's visit the issue once I've actually seen the blog. We know we're going to have to address these things and I can either guess at them today in one-offs or have a process in place to deal with them when we're ready. Man, don't bother the guy! As a CCP employee, he needs his vacation time to manage golf tee times, review pleasure craft purchase plans and decide on which Caribbean Island he'd like to buy property. CCP personnel will get to work when they feel that it is appropriate for their personal schedules. Seriously, the nerve of CCP clients asking for employee time!
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.18 18:50:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Sreegs We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. Are you saying that we are not allowed to use the log files and exported cvs data?, better remove the options before someone starts exploiting them :)
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 08:18:00 - [67] BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.19 08:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Dirk Decibel BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature. I spent 10 second thinking over and solving this problem, finding a way that Mentat could easily spot your updated order with _very_ high probability. So the ONCE PER HOUR limitation is cow dung easy to circumvent and anything you would want from a market bot that keeps track of orders in need of updating is possible. I've always wondered why certain traders managed to update order within minutes as if they were bots, yet not get banned... Turns out they were using the equivalent of a bot.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 08:52:00 - [69] Originally by: Dirk Decibel BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature. There is possibility to track your orders with any time interval using file import (for orders) instead of API. But this requires manual actions inside EVE Online client. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 09:00:00 - [70] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Dirk Decibel BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature. I spent 10 second thinking over and solving this problem, finding a way that Mentat could easily spot your updated order with _very_ high probability. Unless it reads from the EVE client automated and directly, that still doesn't make it a bot
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.19 09:13:00 - [71] Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Dirk Decibel BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature. I spent 10 second thinking over and solving this problem, finding a way that Mentat could easily spot your updated order with _very_ high probability. Unless it reads from the EVE client automated and directly, that still doesn't make it a bot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c96OhoYvgW0&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s Link Yet Mentat does read the cache files to get the up-to-date market orders, and CCP seems not to care since the Mentat thread is still accessible on the forums and no one has been banned.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 09:35:00 - [72] Originally by: Thart Originally by: Dirk Decibel BTW, the API only allows for updating order/order status ONCE PER HOUR. Now what does that mean? That means you will have to manually go through the data you imported the rest of that hour. That only leaves one benefit: the fact that Mentat colors your own orders. A feature that should be included in the EVE client really and in no way a 'bot' feature. There is possibility to track your orders with any time interval using file import (for orders) instead of API. But this requires manual actions inside EVE Online client. I know, manual being the key word here.
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 09:54:00 - [73] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 09:54:03 I don't see mentat as the problem part here. It's a dataharvester. The thing I have issues with is an autoupdating webpage which manages to pull details about market orders faster then any human can by (ab)using some javascript. Just stop this use of javascript in the IGB and it's fixed.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:18:00 - [74] Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 09:54:03 I don't see mentat as the problem part here. It's a dataharvester. The thing I have issues with is an autoupdating webpage which manages to pull details about market orders faster then any human can by (ab)using some javascript. Just stop this use of javascript in the IGB and it's fixed. Actually the speed at which that javascript works is quite limited. Market loads slowly and 2seconds per item is probably the best speed, easily done manually.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:31:00 - [75] Looks legit to me. Since CCP have created the IGB for you to use, it isn't unreasonable to use its scripting features... CCP did provide them as part of the software they supply you with, after all! Also, since they have created functions to allow you to export data, it isn't unreasonable for you to use that data, and import it into some application. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:33:00 - [76] Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 09:54:03 I don't see mentat as the problem part here. It's a dataharvester. The thing I have issues with is an autoupdating webpage which manages to pull details about market orders faster then any human can by (ab)using some javascript. Just stop this use of javascript in the IGB and it's fixed. Actually the speed at which that javascript works is quite limited. Market loads slowly and 2seconds per item is probably the best speed, easily done manually. 2 seconds is too short interval. You'll get temprary java script ban after 30-40 orders. Interval should be 2.5-3 sec. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:34:00 - [77] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 10:36:40 It's an external program (the javascript/html page) that interacts with the game client (opens market). That's against the EULA, so it should be banned.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:40:00 - [78] Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 10:36:40 It's an external program (the javascript/html page) that interacts with the game client (opens market). That's against the EULA, so it should be banned. Interacts via LEGAL mechanism! ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 10:51:00 - [79] Originally by: Thart Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 10:36:40 It's an external program (the javascript/html page) that interacts with the game client (opens market). That's against the EULA, so it should be banned. Interacts via LEGAL mechanism! I am not aware of any legal means of controlling the game client by another program. The fact that it CAN be done is nothing more then a glitch which should be fixed.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:06:00 - [80] Look; this approved method was created by CCP. It, in fact stops RSI in us older players, stopping us having to do thousands of extra clicks a day (240+ orders). For the most part it is the most click intensive career path in eve. If CCP took away the Javascript call, then I for one, who suffers from RSI irl would no longer be able to trade. The best profits come from buying in one system and hauling to another part of the map; so why are some outspoken people trying to take away a needed gameplay from others? Do you also enjoy stealing icecream from 5 year olds? http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/IGB_Javascript_Methods#showMarketDetails_Method showMarketDetails Method Syntax: CCPEVE.showMarketDetails(typeID) typeID (Number) Type ID to display market details about Opens the market details window and displays the information about the item represented by typeID. Example: <button type="button" onclick="CCPEVE.showMarketDetails(34)">Show Market Details</button> I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:17:00 - [81] Ofcourse a valid method has its invalid uses. A useraction, after which this method is called and the market item is displayed. Perfectly fine. A script, repeating itself calling this method in succession without any userintervention: not so fine.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:28:00 - [82] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 11:34:39 Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Thart Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 10:36:40 It's an external program (the javascript/html page) that interacts with the game client (opens market). That's against the EULA, so it should be banned. Interacts via LEGAL mechanism! I am not aware of any legal means of controlling the game client by another program. The fact that it CAN be done is nothing more then a glitch which should be fixed. Er, actually it DOESN'T control the game client. The game client contains a scripting engine in the browser, and that script is run by the browser. The game client is controlling itself via a scripting functionality that CCP have provided as part of their software. All it does, is read the cache files and data from the API, which is not against the EULA. By the way... in your OPINION it is a glitch. Without CCP actually making a ruling on this issue, surely it is more appropriate to assume that its not one? Especially as there is no actual part of the EULA that is even broken. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:34:00 - [83] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Thart Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 10:36:40 It's an external program (the javascript/html page) that interacts with the game client (opens market). That's against the EULA, so it should be banned. Interacts via LEGAL mechanism! I am not aware of any legal means of controlling the game client by another program. The fact that it CAN be done is nothing more then a glitch which should be fixed. Er, actually it DOESN'T control the game client. The game client contains a scripting engine in the browser, and that script is run by the browser. The game client is controlling itself via a scripting functionality that CCP have provided as part of their software. All IT does, is read the cache files and data from the API, which is not against the EULA. Mentat is only reading the cache files. The HTML generated by mentat opens market orders without user intervention, controlling the game client for the user openening market orders. How a program is started is irrelevant. Even if it's started by using the in game scripting engine. If it's a program taking over the game client it isn't allowed. With this functionality it's possible to make a "market allerter" where you get an automated message on your cellphone just seconds after someone undercuts you.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:37:00 - [84] Originally by: Sjugar Ofcourse a valid method has its invalid uses. A useraction, after which this method is called and the market item is displayed. Perfectly fine. A script, repeating itself calling this method in succession without any userintervention: not so fine. Well, obviously it was created by CCP to accomodate traders, a good thing I would say, since the EVE client itself is utter crap when it comes to trading. BTW: I use several macro keys on my keyboard for various stuff in EVE, so I can get done in one keystroke what otherwise would take me several keystrokes. So you can say I 'automated' part of my input! Is that botting too, should CCP ban all input devices that have programmable buttons?
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:42:00 - [85] Originally by: Sjugar With this functionality it's possible to make a "market allerter" where you get an automated message on your cellphone just seconds after someone undercuts you. Good luck with that if you're involved in heavy 0.01 isking in jita, even with around 20 items, by the time the script has gathered all the info and you imported it into Mentat, chances are the info will not be acurate anymore. And as stated b4: EVEmon can warn you about free room in your skill queue. If automated messages to your cellphone is considered botting in your world, that program should disappear too.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:52:00 - [86] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 11:56:45 Originally by: Sjugar Mentat is only reading the cache files. The HTML generated by mentat opens market orders without user intervention, controlling the game client for the user openening market orders. How a program is started is irrelevant. Even if it's started by using the in game scripting engine. If it's a program taking over the game client it isn't allowed. With this functionality it's possible to make a "market allerter" where you get an automated message on your cellphone just seconds after someone undercuts you. Dude... first, html controls nothing, its javascript. Second, if you go to pretty much ANY website, it will be using such technology to control the Eve client to render stuff to your screen. Third, you can't really call it a "program" when both the following are true: a) it is clearly a script running in an interpreter (the interpreter being CCPs program) b) it has no descision making logic, other than some very basic flow control which simply iterates through the list of orders (eg, the order of the functional operations which it calls are completely deterministic... it will do exactly the same thing a bunch of times in order). Fourth, there is nothing in the the technical descriptions EULA that actually bans this (if there is, please link the page and quote the passage that you think applies, and I will explain to you why I think it doesn't). Fifth... why don't you just download and use it, since its obviously going to improve your life? And its the kind of tool that CCP (if they had the dev resources to do) should be providing with their game anyway. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:53:00 - [87] Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Sjugar And as stated b4: EVEmon can warn you about free room in your skill queue. If automated messages to your cellphone is considered botting in your world, that program should disappear too. Evemon uses the api. The Api is the tool for automated interaction with the game. The IGB is not the designated tool for automated interaction with the game. I never claimed automated interaction with the game is forbidden. That's why we have the api. Automated interaction with the Eve client however........ And yes, the use of macros is also forbidden. The fact that there is no way for CCP to detect whther you are using those doesn't make it different. Running the red light when there are no cops looking doesn't make it legal.
Kendra Wilkinson	Posted - 2011.08.19 11:58:00 - [88] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara ... Man, don't bother the guy! As a CCP employee, he needs his vacation time to manage golf tee times, review pleasure craft purchase plans and decide on which Caribbean Island he'd like to buy property. CCP personnel will get to work when they feel that it is appropriate for their personal schedules. Seriously, the nerve of CCP clients asking for employee time! add whaling to the list
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 12:04:00 - [89] Originally by: Kendra Wilkinson add whaling to the list Remove paying-back-my-icesave-cash from the list though.... they don't do that any more! ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 12:06:00 - [90] Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Sjugar And as stated b4: EVEmon can warn you about free room in your skill queue. If automated messages to your cellphone is considered botting in your world, that program should disappear too. Evemon uses the api. The Api is the tool for automated interaction with the game. The IGB is not the designated tool for automated interaction with the game. Apparently it is, why would CCP have implemented this feature into their software if we weren't allowed to use it? Quote: I never claimed automated interaction with the game is forbidden. That's why we have the api. Automated interaction with the Eve client however........ And yes, the use of macros is also forbidden. Me binding CTRL-space into a single key is forbidden you say?
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 12:19:00 - [91] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 12:19:45 Originally by: Dirk Decibel Me binding CTRL-space into a single key is forbidden you say? Totally forbidden mate! I, for one, can't understand why you'd use such a massive cheat to gain advantage over the rest of us. I will be reporting you at once! ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 12:36:00 - [92] Edited by: malaire on 19/08/2011 12:38:38 Originally by: Marchocias Third, you can't really call it a "program" when both the following are true: a) it is clearly a script running in an interpreter (the interpreter being CCPs program) b) it has no descision making logic, other than some very basic flow control which simply iterates through the list of orders (eg, the order of the functional operations which it calls are completely deterministic... it will do exactly the same thing a bunch of times in order). Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. (Well this is true for javascript generally, I have not tested how much IGB supports, and I wont unless CCP says it's OK.) Or are you saying that what EVE Mentat does is OK because that javascript is so simple, but more sophisticated javascripts might not be OK? edit: typo
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 13:13:00 - [93] Quote: Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. (Well this is true for javascript generally, I have not tested how much IGB supports, and I wont unless CCP says it's OK.) Or are you saying that what EVE Mentat does is OK because that javascript is so simple, but more sophisticated javascripts might not be OK? edit: typo You don't actually know what you are typing do you? It's like you are rolling your face around on the keyboard and the craps getting stuck in the keys. I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 13:22:00 - [94] Originally by: Quetazal Quote: .. You don't actually know what you are typing do you? It's like you are rolling your face around on the keyboard and the craps getting stuck in the keys. And you have nothing to say, nor do you understand what he says, so instead you resort to personal attacks?
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 13:33:00 - [95] Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 12:19:45 Originally by: Dirk Decibel Me binding CTRL-space into a single key is forbidden you say? Totally forbidden mate! I, for one, can't understand why you'd use such a massive cheat to gain advantage over the rest of us. I will be reporting you at once! That's not all! I even have keys binded to let my drones engage and return! And if you think that's bad: I've also added a key that does [select all - copy - paste - return/enter] for making updating large ammounts of sell orders of the same type easier and faster! Surely THAT must be botting
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 13:53:00 - [96] Originally by: malaire Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. (Well this is true for javascript generally, I have not tested how much IGB supports, and I wont unless CCP says it's OK.) Or are you saying that what EVE Mentat does is OK because that javascript is so simple, but more sophisticated javascripts might not be OK? edit: typo Anyones PC COULD have a bot on it, so we'd better ban people from using PCs to play the game, by your logic. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 13:54:00 - [97] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 13:55:34 Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 12:19:45 Originally by: Dirk Decibel Me binding CTRL-space into a single key is forbidden you say? Totally forbidden mate! I, for one, can't understand why you'd use such a massive cheat to gain advantage over the rest of us. I will be reporting you at once! That's not all! I even have keys binded to let my drones engage and return! And if you think that's bad: I've also added a key that does [select all - copy - paste - return/enter] for making updating large ammounts of sell orders of the same type easier and faster! Surely THAT must be botting Seeing you can't win the original discussion you're trying to shift it to a subject you CAN win by making some absurd statements about keybinding drones. Good luck with your drones, I hope CCP gets to their senses and do what needs to be done. Originally by: Marchocias Anyones PC COULD have a bot on it, so we'd better ban people from using PCs to play the game, by your logic. That's not what is the case by his logic. See, more absurd statements. You just acknowledge that it's bot-behaviour.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:01:00 - [98] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 14:03:52 Originally by: Sjugar Seeing you can't win the original discussion you're trying to shift it to a subject you CAN win by making some absurd statements about keybinding drones. Good luck with your drones, I hope CCP gets to their senses and do what needs to be done. Making flippant comments has nothing to do with trying to win the argument - its entirely to do with entertaining other people on the same side of the argument as you. That aside... If CCP were to clarify and say that Mentat is not allowed, then I would immediately delete it and accept their decision, but so far they have not said that its disallowed, nor does any part of the rules clearly ban it. I would support them entirely in such a decision, even though I'd disagree with it, as its their game. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, and CCP would be supporting the community better by supporting, and even encouraging its use, so that everyone is aware of the cool tools that are available to them. Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Marchocias Anyones PC COULD have a bot on it, so we'd better ban people from using PCs to play the game, by your logic. That's not what is the case by his logic. See, more absurd statements. You just acknowledge that it's bot-behaviour. Not at all... he stated that a particular programming language COULD be used to make a bot, therefore this program (which uses that language) should be banned. How about regular websites that use javascript... they COULD be hosting bots, so should be banned... regardless of if they actually are bots. Surely thats more absurd. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:07:00 - [99] Originally by: Sjugar Seeing you can't win the original discussion you're trying to shift it to a subject you CAN win by making some absurd statements about keybinding drones. Wait a minute: First, YOU claim macro-keys are forbidden. Then when I give an example of one of my macro-bindings, suddenly I'm being absurd? If you are against any automation, you should indeed consider these short cuts I take illegal, since they do automate my interacting with the client to a certain point. So what's it gonna be? Should they ban key-bindings or not?
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:11:00 - [100] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 14:13:56 Originally by: Marchocias Not at all... he stated that a particular programming language COULD be used to make a bot, therefore this program (which uses that language) should be banned. How about regular websites that use javascript... they COULD be hosting bots, so should be banned... regardless of if they actually are bots. Surely thats more absurd. I don't know how you make this analogy, it's totally wrong. "A malicious program using a language should be banned" the language shouldn't be. Yes regular websites can use javascript, but nowhere is there a call for ban of javascipt, just for this particular script. Not banning entire websites the script COULD be there but banning a malicious program if it IS there. Originally by: Dirk Decibel So what's it gonna be? Should they ban key-bindings or not? This isn't about keybinding it's about botting/automation.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:22:00 - [101] Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Marchocias Not at all... he stated that a particular programming language COULD be used to make a bot, therefore this program (which uses that language) should be banned. How about regular websites that use javascript... they COULD be hosting bots, so should be banned... regardless of if they actually are bots. Surely thats more absurd. I don't know how you make this analogy, it's totally wrong. "A malicious program using a language should be banned" the language shouldn't be. Yes regular websites can use javascript, but nowhere is there a call for ban of javascipt, just for this particular script. Not banning entire websites the script COULD be there but banning a malicious program if it IS there. I'm not calling for any language to be banned... my point was in response to: Originally by: malaire Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. He clearly makes the point that javascript COULD be used to create bots. The implication is that this is a reason to ban Mentat. My irrefutable point, is that IF this is a reason to ban Mentat then it is also a reason to ban anything using javascript in the IGB. Originally by: Sjugar Originally by: Dirk Decibel So what's it gonna be? Should they ban key-bindings or not? This isn't about keybinding it's about botting/automation. The point is that Mentat is essentially equivalent to key binding. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:32:00 - [102] Originally by: Marchocias He clearly makes the point that javascript COULD be used to create bots. The implication is that this is a reason to ban Mentat. My irrefutable point, is that IF this is a reason to ban Mentat then it is also a reason to ban anything using javascript in the IGB. You can't create a eve bot using java script, the in-game browser allows you to open windows with arguments. The reason it's useful for Mentat, is because opening the market windows and loading the market data for a specific item is going to refresh the local cache files. You can add all the items you are selling to the quick menu and do the same by hand in minutes, it's really not a huge deal.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:34:00 - [103] Originally by: dexington Originally by: Marchocias He clearly makes the point that javascript COULD be used to create bots. The implication is that this is a reason to ban Mentat. My irrefutable point, is that IF this is a reason to ban Mentat then it is also a reason to ban anything using javascript in the IGB. You can't create a eve bot using java script, the in-game browser allows you to open windows with arguments. The reason it's useful for Mentat, is because opening the market windows and loading the market data for a specific item is going to refresh the local cache files. You can add all the items you are selling to the quick menu and do the same by hand in minutes, it's really not a huge deal. Indeed. That argument is essentially irrelevant since you can't even create bots with the javascript available, as it simply doesn't allow you to actually DO anything. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:51:00 - [104] Originally by: Marchocias Specifically: It gives you no items. It gives you no currency. It gives you no objects. It gives you no character attributes. It gives you no rank (whatever that even means) It does not change your status. It performs no actual action on your behalf, benefical or otherwise. Therefore, in my opinion, its legit. It gives you information. And in trading that is really valuable. Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: malaire Javascript program could easily have highly sophisticated decision making logic, so part "b)" isn't really valid. Also it could easily load more dynamically generated code from server during execution. He clearly makes the point that javascript COULD be used to create bots. The implication is that this is a reason to ban Mentat. My irrefutable point, is that IF this is a reason to ban Mentat then it is also a reason to ban anything using javascript in the IGB. I didn't mean to imply that. I wasn't talking about EVE Mentat there, but what might be possible to do. Still, if EVE Mentat is OK because it only uses simple javascript in IGB, but some other program using more sophisticated javascript would not be OK, then where do you draw the line? Personally I think javascript API calls should not work in automated scripts. Maybe javascript API calls should work only e.g. max 10 seconds after last user interaction. In this way simple javascript API links would work, but exporting market data into cache while user is AFK would not work.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:52:00 - [105] Originally by: Sjugar This isn't about keybinding it's about botting/automation. And my keybinding is a form of automation. Specially the select all-paste-enter combo and stuff like it. Now done with one keystroke that sets in motion a chain of events that I would otherwise have to do MANUALLY, therefore taking more time and requiring more attention and focus. Surely, if you're such an anti-automation freak, that must strike you as an unfair advantage? But for some reason you call that 'absurd', yet having a java method that was implemented by CCP itself loop is 'botting'. Let's take it one step further: I could argue that grouping weapons is unfair, it gives everyone the ability to fire all their weapons at once, it automates the process of having to push more buttons. Before this was around, ppl that could push their 6/7/8/whatever funtion keys faster than others had a small advantage. And as any EVE player knows: no advantage is too small not to matter in this game. Yet, nobody will argue for the removal of this feature. Why? Cause it makes the game more fun by taking out a non-fun part (the smashing of your keyboard to get your guns firing asap) so you can get to the actual gameplay faster and without hasstle (the gameplay being the fight). The same is true for the possibility to loop the javacode. It takes out a tedious part of gathering data (you would have to click each of your items manually in your shortlist to display market orders and let it be written to cache, and while you could prolly do it faster than the Javascript can, nobody wants to do that 10 times a day) and let's you get to the actual gameplay of trading: deciding how you are going to act on this information. It does NOT set up orders for you, nor does it update them, it does not make decissions for you, it just gathers data that is available to you anyway but without turning it into a clickfest (a clickfest is NOT gameplay for the trading part of the game). So if you want to be 'pure' on the 'no automation'-stand: go argue against keybindings and weapons grouping. Or, stop being a hypocrite.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:54:00 - [106] Originally by: dexington You can't create a eve bot using java script, the in-game browser allows you to open windows with arguments. The reason it's useful for Mentat, is because opening the market windows and loading the market data for a specific item is going to refresh the local cache files. You can add all the items you are selling to the quick menu and do the same by hand in minutes, it's really not a huge deal. You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files.
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:58:00 - [107] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington You can't create a eve bot using java script, the in-game browser allows you to open windows with arguments. The reason it's useful for Mentat, is because opening the market windows and loading the market data for a specific item is going to refresh the local cache files. You can add all the items you are selling to the quick menu and do the same by hand in minutes, it's really not a huge deal. You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. Right, but there's no way to tell the client to act on the information that's been gathered without your input. That's all it is. It's information that's available to everyone and whether or not you choose to use that information is up to you.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 14:59:00 - [108] Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. And that would help you how exactly? If you're not present, you can't act on the information... But it would remove the need to click the 'start scan' button 10 times a day, hm, I 'll have to ask Thart to implement this in one of his next releases.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:02:00 - [109] Originally by: Dirk Decibel The same is true for the possibility to loop the javacode. It takes out a tedious part of gathering data (you would have to click each of your items manually in your shortlist to display market orders and let it be written to cache, and while you could prolly do it faster than the Javascript can, nobody wants to do that 10 times a day) and let's you get to the actual gameplay of trading: deciding how you are going to act on this information. It does NOT set up orders for you, nor does it update them, it does not make decissions for you, it just gathers data that is available to you anyway but without turning it into a clickfest (a clickfest is NOT gameplay for the trading part of the game). By this same logic "travel bot", which does same as autopilot but which warps to 0m, would also be allowed. Since it only takes away the tedious part of travelling, removing clickfest which is not part of actual gameplay and what nobody would want to do 10 times a day, and so on....
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:02:00 - [110] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Marchocias Specifically: It gives you no items. It gives you no currency. It gives you no objects. It gives you no character attributes. It gives you no rank (whatever that even means) It does not change your status. It performs no actual action on your behalf, benefical or otherwise. Therefore, in my opinion, its legit. It gives you information. And in trading that is really valuable. Yes, information is valuable, but its not information you couldn't have got just by opening the market yourself. Also CCP doesn't include information on their list of things which you're not allowed to do/obtain in this way. Items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank, status, and action are the things they list. Now, you MIGHT say that opening and navigating the market window with javascript is an action, and therefore banned by the EULA (a position I would understand, even though though I disagree with it). However, if this is the case, why did they bother to specifically create functionality which lets you do something they have banned? Guys - if I were you, I'd start using it - its really helpful. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:04:00 - [111] Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. And that would help you how exactly? If you're not present, you can't act on the information... You didn't read my earlier posts? External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:04:00 - [112] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 15:06:28 Originally by: malaire Originally by: Dirk Decibel The same is true for the possibility to loop the javacode. It takes out a tedious part of gathering data (you would have to click each of your items manually in your shortlist to display market orders and let it be written to cache, and while you could prolly do it faster than the Javascript can, nobody wants to do that 10 times a day) and let's you get to the actual gameplay of trading: deciding how you are going to act on this information. It does NOT set up orders for you, nor does it update them, it does not make decissions for you, it just gathers data that is available to you anyway but without turning it into a clickfest (a clickfest is NOT gameplay for the trading part of the game). By this same logic "travel bot", which does same as autopilot but which warps to 0m, would also be allowed. Since it only takes away the tedious part of travelling, removing clickfest which is not part of actual gameplay and what nobody would want to do 10 times a day, and so on.... No, because a travel bot both: 1) has to make the descision to warp and jump you at the right times 2) actually makes your character perform an ingame action Originally by: malaire External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer. Which still requires you to make the descisions to act on the market change. This is something EveMon and other accepted programs already do, and they're not banned. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:06:00 - [113] Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:07:00 - [114] Originally by: dexington Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window. Exactly... I couldn't have put it more succintly. (No really, I'm terribly verbose!) ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:15:00 - [115] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: malaire External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer. Which still requires you to make the descisions to act on the market change. This is something EveMon and other accepted programs already do, and they're not banned. EveMon does NOT say when your order isn't best anymore, since that information is not available from API. To actually act on the market change, is in some cases less than 50% of the work required. For some items which are not updated often, actually checking competitors orders is the bigger part, and this is exacly what javascript-bot can automate. Originally by: dexington Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window. What then is bot by your defition? If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop?
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:27:00 - [116] Originally by: malaire If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop? How does this even compare? Your example clearly automates client input that is not otherwise available through some IGB JavaScript function call.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:29:00 - [117] Originally by: dexington Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window. To give better counter for this: Let's say I implement this kind of javascript-bot/external application combination: 1. (external app) Make list of 10 most important items I'm trading in. 2. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item 3. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS. 4. (external app) Make list of 10 items I should check next, based on collected data of competitors actions (who updates their orders most often, who updates their orders at this time of day generally, etc..) 5. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item 6. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS. 7. (external app) Make list items to check next, based on any criteria I want .... Yes, the IGB javascript part is simple loop. But it would be combined with external application which does all the hard work, and the combination is not simple loop anymore, but sophisticated notification bot.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:31:00 - [118] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 15:32:18 Originally by: malaire What then is bot by your defition? If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop? Yes, that is a bot, as: That program is external (running in a separate process to Eve). It is actually making your character perform actions. The IGB link in Mentat is not because: The script is internal (running in a process spawned by the Eve executable). It is not making your character perform any actions. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:33:00 - [119] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window. To give better counter for this: Let's say I implement this kind of javascript-bot/external application combination: 1. (external app) Make list of 10 most important items I'm trading in. 2. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item 3. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS. 4. (external app) Make list of 10 items I should check next, based on collected data of competitors actions (who updates their orders most often, who updates their orders at this time of day generally, etc..) 5. (IGB javascript) Load that list and open market details for each item 6. (external app) Load market info from cache, if any item needs my attention send SMS. 7. (external app) Make list items to check next, based on any criteria I want .... Yes, the IGB javascript part is simple loop. But it would be combined with external application which does all the hard work, and the combination is not simple loop anymore, but sophisticated notification bot. It's justified by the fact that in the end, you're the one who has to sit in front of your keyboard and manually update the order. So whether or not you choose to use the freely available information to your advantage is up to you, but as long as you're manually updating your orders, no harm done.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:33:00 - [120] I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them? I came, I saw, I downloaded.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:36:00 - [121] Originally by: Quetazal I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them? If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information?
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:37:00 - [122] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 15:36:55 Originally by: Marchocias It is not making your character perform any actions. It automatically makes your character perform the action of opening the marketorders for a particular items.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:37:00 - [123] Originally by: malaire What then is bot by your defition? If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop? Yes, that is a bot, as: That program is external (running in a separate process to Eve). It is actually making your character perform actions. The IGB link in Mentat is not because: The script is internal (running in a process spawned by the Eve executable). It is not making your character perform any actions. Originally by: malaire Let's say I implement this kind of javascript-bot/external application combination: 1. ...various steps 7. Well, the notification system is perfectly legit - many legit programs already allow such notification to occur. As for deciding to check for another list, that might be botting depending on how it is achieved. If you make the ingame application create a new list, and THEN have it make the ingame browser visit a new link that's possibly technically botting. However, it is irrelevant, because Mentat doesn't do that. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:39:00 - [124] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 15:45:09 Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 15:36:55 Originally by: Marchocias It is not making your character perform any actions. It automatically makes your character perform the action of opening the marketorders for a particular items. That isn't an action that your character performs. Your character does nothing. Also, it is clearly something that CCP have specifically coded into the IGB to allow people to do. Originally by: malaire Originally by: Quetazal I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them? If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information? Just because the API doesn't offer something itself it doesn't follow that it is illegitimate. Possible reasons are: there weren't enough developer resources available to do that. Or maybe there was some technical limitation which meant they decided not to bother. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:41:00 - [125] Originally by: Marchocias The IGB link in Mentat is not because: The script is internal (running in a process spawned by the Eve executable). It is not making your character perform any actions. Mentat still reads the CACHE FILES, which is supposedly NOT ALLOWED. Therefor BAN all the cheating bot-using scum.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:42:00 - [126] Originally by: Monstress It's justified by the fact that in the end, you're the one who has to sit in front of your keyboard and manually update the order. So whether or not you choose to use the freely available information to your advantage is up to you, but as long as you're manually updating your orders, no harm done. If I get such answer from CCP, then you can be sure that I will implement such notification app for my private use. I would really love to keep EVE minimized whole day while I work on other things, only needing to switch to EVE for a moment at the very moment any competitor updates their price to be better than mine. Ultimate "play EVE while working" solution for trader (who trades in items which doesnt need constant attention.) I do not know any such application yet, so having one for my private use would feel a bit bad because of the advantage. But if CCP says yes, I would at least make that information public, so others could start developing their own apps, and I'm sure in time some would become free to use for all who want. But I still hope CCP says this is not allowed.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:43:00 - [127] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Quetazal I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them? If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information? It does, its called the Export button. There is no information being dragged out that should not be. The limit on changing orders is 5 mins; that is the limit CCP has given us; at the moment this has not changed. I came, I saw, I downloaded.
dexington Caldari Baconoration	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:45:00 - [128] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington Originally by: malaire You can create bot which automatically, without user being present, continually updates the cache files. That's not a bot, it's nothing more then a loop that loads data in the market window. What then is bot by your defition? If someone implements travel bot as simple loop (using external program to handle clicking), would you say that it is not bot since it is simple loop? What you are proposing would be the same as if the program would be able to modify orders based on the data it collects, as long as you are forced to modify the orders yourself then there is nothing illegal going on. 1) It's not illegal to make a loop the loops your market orders. 2) It's not illegal to read the cache files. Why would it be illegal to combine 1 and 2 and make good use if the data you collect?
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:47:00 - [129] Edited by: Quetazal on 19/08/2011 15:47:32 nm I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:47:00 - [130] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: malaire External program could be reading those cache files continually, and when it detects that my order isn't best anymore, it can then send email/SMS notification to my cellphone, so I can come to computer for a moment to update my order, and then continue whatever I was doing away from computer. And we've already established that programs giving you information on what's going on in EVE online aren't illegal, otherwise EVEmon would have been banned ages ago... That does the same thing: warn you when you are away from pc. Yet I don't see you argueing against ft....
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:48:00 - [131] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Marchocias The IGB link in Mentat is not because: The script is internal (running in a process spawned by the Eve executable). It is not making your character perform any actions. Mentat still reads the CACHE FILES, which is supposedly NOT ALLOWED. Therefor BAN all the cheating bot-using scum. Please link to something official, or someone from CCP actually saying that you cannot inspect these files, and I'll happily concede that I'm wrong. I have only seen CCP say that you may not ALTER the files supplied with the game. So for two reasons this wouldn't apply: 1) it only reads and deletes the files 2) the cache files are not supplied with the game, they are created by it. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:48:00 - [132] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Mentat still reads the CACHE FILES, which is supposedly NOT ALLOWED. Actually, that is allowed. See http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1190021 Creator of that specifically got permission from CCP to publish it.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:51:00 - [133] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 15:51:59 Seriously guys... 1) This program totally rules 2) CCP haven't said its against the rules 3) Its free 4) Its easy to use 5) Its available to everyone If I were you, I'd start using it before CCP start putting adverts up for it, and even more people get on the bandwagon! Come on in... the water is lovely! ---- I like the base.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:53:00 - [134] Keep bumping the thread! More mentat users to outbid you! GJ OP! I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:54:00 - [135] Originally by: Quetazal Keep bumping the thread! More mentat users to outbid you! GJ OP! Heh... yeah - I only found out about it BECAUSE of this thread. So thanks! ---- I like the base.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:55:00 - [136] Edited by: Quetazal on 19/08/2011 15:56:48 OP is sharing the Love! Attually it was me who suggested to the EvE mentat creator to use cache scraping and IGB http://eve-search.com/thread/1228370/page/5#149 (don col leon is my alt) I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:55:00 - [137] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Mentat still reads the CACHE FILES, which is supposedly NOT ALLOWED. Actually, that is allowed. See http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1190021 Creator of that specifically got permission from CCP to publish it. Linkage Tool that did basicly the same as what you are complaining about, guy petitioned it and GM gave the green light. Quote: Is this legal? Yes it is. I have petitionned this tool, and a game master told me it was fine. I am not allowed to post screenshots of my petition here, however I can PM you links in game if you want.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:57:00 - [138] Originally by: dexington 1) It's not illegal to make a loop the loops your market orders. 2) It's not illegal to read the cache files. Why would it be illegal to combine 1 and 2 and make good use if the data you collect? I think that part 1 should be illegal. Maybe even part 2. Also I don't believe that combination is OK before I see CCP answer for that.
Don ColLeonie	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:57:00 - [139] Just for proof. So you can thank me too :-) http://eve-search.com/thread/1228370/page/5#149
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:58:00 - [140] I guess everythings pretty much been said. All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling. ---- I like the base.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.08.19 15:59:00 - [141] Originally by: malaire Originally by: dexington 1) It's not illegal to make a loop the loops your market orders. 2) It's not illegal to read the cache files. Why would it be illegal to combine 1 and 2 and make good use if the data you collect? I think that part 1 should be illegal. Maybe even part 2. Also I don't believe that combination is OK before I see CCP answer for that. So can we stop the discussion here, the dev responded and said there will be a blog post shortly. If the CCP says it's now wrong, I'm sure mentat dev will remove that feature.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 16:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara So can we stop the discussion here, the dev responded and said there will be a blog post shortly. If the CCP says it's now wrong, I'm sure mentat dev will remove that feature. Fair enough. It'd be a crying same if that happens though. ---- I like the base.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 16:11:00 - [143] Originally by: Marchocias I guess everythings pretty much been said. All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling. Yep. I already started repeating myself in this thread. So waiting for devblog and answer to my petition. Also, I didn't know about "Eve001Tool". 500M ISK registration cost Maybe I need to stop trading and start selling programs for traders
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 16:29:00 - [144] Originally by: Marchocias I guess everythings pretty much been said. All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling. Since they already aproved of EVE001tool (now no longer developed) I doubt they will rule against EVEmentat.
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.19 16:42:00 - [145] Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Marchocias I guess everythings pretty much been said. All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling. Since they already aproved of EVE001tool (now no longer developed) I doubt they will rule against EVEmentat. I'm not interested about EVEmentat specifically (it doesn't even do what I've suggested could be possible), but general answer whether this kind of IGB javascript + cache reading external application combination can be used for its full potential or not.
Dirk Decibel	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:08:00 - [146] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Dirk Decibel Originally by: Marchocias I guess everythings pretty much been said. All we can do is wait for a CCP ruling. Since they already aproved of EVE001tool (now no longer developed) I doubt they will rule against EVEmentat. I'm not interested about EVEmentat specifically (it doesn't even do what I've suggested could be possible), but general answer whether this kind of IGB javascript + cache reading external application combination can be used for its full potential or not. It's pretty simple imo: anything you can get out of the IGB, you can do anything to. So yes, your messaging software should be allowed. And no, I'm not trying to get you banned.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:19:00 - [147] Originally by: malaire I'm not interested about EVEmentat specifically (it doesn't even do what I've suggested could be possible), but general answer whether this kind of IGB javascript + cache reading external application combination can be used for its full potential or not. All I can recommend is, get involved and download it as soon as you can... we're having WAY more fun on this side of the argument, I assure you! ---- I like the base.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.19 17:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara Originally by: CCP Sreegs Originally by: Thart Originally by: CCP Sreegs We're going to be discussing what constitutes a bot and what doesn't in an upcoming devblog to clear up any ambiguity. I will note as a word of caution that we provide the API as a gateway to obtain the information we want you to be obtaining and that this is not the purpose of any of the files which are delivered as a part of the client. CCP Sreegs, could you give concrete comments regarding EVE Mentat's functionality before posting the blog? Does the tool conforms EULA or not? We will give concrete comments regarding what constitutes a violating application which should be pretty clear. Let's visit the issue once I've actually seen the blog. We know we're going to have to address these things and I can either guess at them today in one-offs or have a process in place to deal with them when we're ready. Man, don't bother the guy! As a CCP employee, he needs his vacation time to manage golf tee times, review pleasure craft purchase plans and decide on which Caribbean Island he'd like to buy property. CCP personnel will get to work when they feel that it is appropriate for their personal schedules. Seriously, the nerve of CCP clients asking for employee time! I think its disgusting that a CCP dev had to take their time to answer this and then people chastise them. What the ** is your major malfunction? For one thing, while the definition of what we can and cannot use in the EULA may be ambiguous as far as certain things are concerned, its not in this case whatsoever. Quote:** You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. If Streggs was being intellectually honest rather than politically correct, he would tell you... RTFM HTFU GTFO. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:19:00 - [149] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 18:24:22 Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: [1]You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. [2]You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. [3]You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. [4]You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. If Streggs was being intellectually honest rather than politically correct, he would tell you... RTFM HTFU GTFO. I have labelled the relevant sentences in your post, and I will now address them: 1) It doesn't modify any content in the game. It doesn't change how the game is played. 2) It does not facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status. CCP would have to add the word "information" to the list for it to be invalidated by this point. 3) It has not rewritten or modified the user interface. Again it doesn't let you aquire items, currency, objects, character atributes... or... (er... to be honest, since "to aquire beneficial actions" doesn't even mean anything in correct English, I'm not sure I even need to address this point). 4) It does not bypass any system login architecture, or allow you access, etc. (By the way, I agree, there was no need for anyone to be a jerk at a CCP employee doing his job, and being as helpful as he can by letting us know there is a blog coming to clarify the situation)
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:26:00 - [150] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 19/08/2011 18:29:42 Thank you for agreeing with me good sir. I just wish some people would read the EULA.
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 18:37:00 - [151] Originally by: Cipher Jones Edited by: Cipher Jones on 19/08/2011 18:29:42 Thank you for agreeing with me good sir. I just wish some people would read the EULA. Always a pleasure! ---- I like the base.
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:01:00 - [152] Originally by: Quetazal I don't understand, why are you so keen to get legitimate features taken away from those who use them? Most of people who protest against similar tools or its features are owners/users or even developers of specialized private tools which do the same "unholy" things. Originally by: malaire If having external access to all local market orders is legitimate feature, then why doesn't API offer this information? To prevent total automation of trade analysis. Total means "without need to launch the game". Originally by: Don ColLeonie Just for proof. So you can thank me too :-) http://eve-search.com/thread/1228370/page/5#149 Thank you a lot for the inspiration! Also my thanks for those people who sent interesting feature request which have designated further development! Also I'd like to thank malaire for this interesting discussion. It so happened that this topic is the greatest tool advertisement since I've released it I even posted it on my site. In addition... Tool is free, available for all and legit for now. Use or no - it's your own decision. But it should not influence other's decisions. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Jon Taggart State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:15:00 - [153] Mentat, the Master of Assassins? I'm not an alt
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:21:00 - [154] Originally by: Jon Taggart Mentat, the Master of Assassins? What? o_0 The origin of tool's name is here. ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Jon Taggart State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:23:00 - [155] Edited by: Jon Taggart on 19/08/2011 19:25:03 Originally by: Thart Originally by: Jon Taggart Mentat, the Master of Assassins? What? o_0 The origin of tool's name is here. Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said! http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins I'm not an alt
Thart U.K.R.A.I.N.E SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:36:00 - [156] Originally by: Jon Taggart Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said! http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins Oh, that's clear now ;) Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :) ----------------------------------------- EVE Mentat - true trade tool
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.19 19:40:00 - [157] Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 19:40:17 Originally by: Thart Originally by: Jon Taggart Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said! http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins Oh, that's clear now ;) Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :) Ooooh - read the book mate... its definately one of the finest sci fi books about! Warning - its quite long. ---- I like the base.
Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.19 20:14:00 - [158] Interesting thread for sure. Originally by: Marchocias Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 19:40:17 Originally by: Thart Originally by: Jon Taggart Yea! I was watching Dune today and that's what that dude said! http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Master_of_Assassins Oh, that's clear now ;) Frankly, I didn't read Dune (but of course I played the game!). Proposal for the name was given by the first engineer of EVE Mentat - Perfide. So I have to thank Perfide too! :) Ooooh - read the book mate... its definately one of the finest sci fi books about! Warning - its quite long. Warning 2: The first quarter of the book is sort of slow. I haev heard of many people that do not get through the book because of this, but I believe the first quarter or so is integral in defining the motivations that drive Paul. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Sheeshakan	Posted - 2011.08.19 20:28:00 - [159] Originally by: malaire Originally by: Elanor Gaiser Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data. And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed. Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.) This. I will start using mining bots if they say market bots are okay.
malus mendax	Posted - 2011.08.19 22:01:00 - [160] Originally by: Sheeshakan Originally by: malaire Originally by: Elanor Gaiser Surely an RL trader would have a similar system of checks if Eve was real, just have simple programs monitoring each market, as data can travel FTL in Eve there is no reason why this process shouldn't exist. As long as it doesn't buy and sell for your, it just does the boring parts of trading, the data collection, you have to analyse and action upon the data. And surely RL miner would have automated mining vessels. But in EVE mining bots are not allowed. Market bots should not be allowed either, even if it does only 70% of the work. (And for some items, checking whether competitors have updated their orders can be more work than actually updating the orders, especially if you want to update within few minutes after competitor, and orders are updated rarely, e.g. once per day.) This. I will start using mining bots if they say market bots are okay. And i'll start riding you mom to school, if you start using mining bots.
Johnathan Roark Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.08.19 23:05:00 - [161] I really do not see the issue with this, its hardly a bot, just a fancy data collector. EVE players are always finding better ways to do the things they love to do in eve. Maybe CCP should shutdown the api servers as well and remove all the export functions? POS-Tracker 3.0 Hosting
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.19 23:11:00 - [162] Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 23:12:08 Just a fancy data collector: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559963 yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference?
Johnathan Roark Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.08.20 00:07:00 - [163] Originally by: Sjugar Edited by: Sjugar on 19/08/2011 23:12:08 Just a fancy data collector: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559963 yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference? There are actually several differences: 1) its performing an action that directly effects game play (flashing the red light), its not just gathering data. 2) Its scraping the client itself, not just cache files. (ccp could easily stop the reading of cache files if they chose to) 3) Its not using any of the ccp provided methods 4) There is no export function to get any data from local, there is for market data There was another program like this, CCP changed how the log server worked, I haven't seen any effort by ccp to stop cache data sc****rs, I've actually seen ccp give direction on changes in cache. POS-Tracker 3.0 Hosting
Callean Drevus Caldari Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity	Posted - 2011.08.20 00:34:00 - [164] Edited by: Callean Drevus on 20/08/2011 00:37:33 malaire, my character is ready to virtually strangle yours. I really cannot wait for CCP to implement Incarna. Seldom has someone succeeded in getting me so worked up about a certain topic. Just of your information, I'm the developer of EVE Marketeer and I will be hard at work on making instant notifications possible, thanks for the suggestion! You will NOT take my reason for liking and playing EVE from me! (well, you will not anyway, but you will hopefully not trigger a negative CCP response) --- "A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool." Chief Developer of EVE Marketeer.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.20 00:44:00 - [165] Originally by: Johnathan Roark Originally by: Sjugar yet Zymurgist is pretty sure this isn't allowed. Where is the big difference? There are actually several differences: 1) its performing an action that directly effects game play (flashing the red light), its not just gathering data. So the only difference is that the Mentat developer forgot to add automated notification? It's dirt easy to changing things to read the cache files regularly and check for the need to update, then alert the user. And what exactly is the difference between a red light on your keyboard versus a red table cell? Originally by: Johnathan Roark 2) Its scraping the client itself, not just cache files. (ccp could easily stop the reading of cache files if they chose to) Why is it 'just cache files'? The tool above only sc**s 'just the screen', they're both just data the client dumps into RAM buffers. Originally by:** Johnathan Roark 3) Its not using any of the ccp provided methods So cache files were provided by CCP? Originally by: Johnathan Roark 4) There is no export function to get any data from local, there is for market data At 1 hour intervals... We also get export functions for solar system statistics. Oh... wait... that means there _IS_ export functions to get some data from local... Does that mean everything else you said this thread is wrong too? I think it does.
Callean Drevus Caldari Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity	Posted - 2011.08.20 00:55:00 - [166] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab So the only difference is that the Mentat developer forgot to add automated notification? It's dirt easy to changing things to read the cache files regularly and check for the need to update, then alert the user. And what exactly is the difference between a red light on your keyboard versus a red table cell? Why is it 'just cache files'? The tool above only sc**s 'just the screen', they're both just data the client dumps into RAM buffers. So cache files were provided by CCP? Of course it's dirt easy to notify the user, that's the whole point of the thing. It isn't useful if the user doesn't know of it, whether it's by a red table cell, or a message in his mailbox doesn't matter as far as functionality is concerned. The cache file is actually not sc**d off the screen, or out of RAM, it is readable on disk. Technically, they, and all the rest of the client, are provided by CCP, I do not understand the question... I think the difference between the two is somewhere in the magnitude of the ingame advantage :) --- "A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool." Chief Developer of EVE Marketeer.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.20 01:16:00 - [167] Originally by: Callean Drevus I think the difference between the two is somewhere in the magnitude of the ingame advantage :) Yes, I agree... The magnitude is completely different. For one, you're just risking the loss of a couple million ISK at most, while the other we're talking billions upon billions in ISK.
Callean Drevus Caldari Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity	Posted - 2011.08.20 01:40:00 - [168] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab For one, you're just risking the loss of a couple million ISK at most, while the other we're talking billions upon billions in ISK. I submit defeat But no, actually, I think what you are saying is wrong, it takes a looong time to earn an ingame advantage of billions upon billions of ISK, especially when you assume that people are still updating their orders too, and you still have to be at your PC for forever, have your client running, and be able to update an order. I think you'll have much more influence on the game if you blow up other people's ships because you are notified they are there. Also, take into account the unique nature of the trader, we have no tools other than the market window, we should be allowed to have our guns and cargo scanners too :) I would love CCP to implement this ingame, but frankly, that's just not too high on their list of priorities (and rightly so) I think. I actually think the blinking red light is awesome :) you might have noticed my post in that topic before it was closed. I really couldn't care one way or another whether someone reads something that's on his screen already. Information is everything, making it accessible in an easy way should be celebrated, not condemned. COMPLETE automation is what I'm troubled by. --- "A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool." Chief Developer of EVE Marketeer.
Johnathan Roark Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.08.20 02:36:00 - [169] Lets look at the next step after you get said notification: Hostile Alert System: We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc. End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play. Market scanning bot w/ notification: We first have to evaluate if its economically viable to lower our price, depending on our margins, we may want to, we may not. If we do lower our price, the aggressor can either lower his price, buy our stock and resell at his higher price, move goods to a different area. Also, I would like to mention, since EVE prides itself for have a very realistic market, that stock trading software has automatic stop-loss sells, retailers do tons of data mining (those little plastic cards the grocery stores give you aren't for discounts). Something that both of these systems have is they both require a human to make the final decision. I also can see the possibility of driving prices down, buying up the cheap stock and selling it for higher, especially if someone isn't paying attention. POS-Tracker 3.0 Hosting
Dragonaire Caldari Corax. PURgE Alliance	Posted - 2011.08.20 04:04:00 - [170] Quote: Hostile Alert System: We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc. End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play. And that would be a bad thing in what way -- Finds camping stations from the inside much easier. Designer of Yapeal for Eve API.
Sjugar	Posted - 2011.08.20 19:02:00 - [171] Originally by: Dragonaire Quote: Hostile Alert System: We either logoff, dock, warp to a safe spot, etc. End result, there is no longer a response an aggressive player can perform, no more pvp, no more game play. And that would be a bad thing in what way Any worse then a marketorder alerter?
Jenny Aakiwa	Posted - 2011.08.22 09:01:00 - [172] Sigh Another care-bear tears thread. You know, Malaire, it already been developed and it not going to be given up so easily. Think about it anyway, if someone have 315 market orders, do you think it is REALLY possible for them to go through all of that orders "your way" without being affected mentally. Most people would quit trading just from going through one time in all 315 market orders. This program just allow us to expand our capacity to complete in the market.
Wendelgard Gallente Herrscher der Zeit Smacked Alliance	Posted - 2011.08.22 18:06:00 - [173] I personally do not object using marketdata bots not say that I am very glad about their existence. First of all, they enable one to plan how many units of ore or ice respektivly to dig to get a given amout of ISK. The other advantage of such massively harvested data one is enabled to have a rough idea about ones assets worth. The only massively drawback of a complete market scan is already mentioned. It takes a long period but so what? So if you have canceled a mission shortly before you do not want run another disfavoured mission, that is the time you can use to scan. /Wendelgard
isk4trade Caldari Cogitation Mining and Industrial Trading	Posted - 2011.08.27 11:19:00 - [174] OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ... What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK! me
Jenny Aakiwa	Posted - 2011.08.27 14:15:00 - [175] Originally by: isk4trade OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ... What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK! me I agree with you there.
Barakach	Posted - 2011.08.28 18:13:00 - [176] Originally by: isk4trade OMFG ... This is like saying we should ban all calculator users as they can use a perfectly good pencil to add up their orders with like I do ... and not have an advantage of time saved over the rest of us less privileged players ... What a joke. Go to jail. Do not collect 200 ISK! me Pencils?! HA! Can't use pencils either, that's cheating. Heck, left hemishpere of the brain helps too much. If CCP doesn't want it, they can remove the javascript API interaction. They added it for a reason.

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