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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1378
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Posted - 2012.10.08 03:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Sreegs, has there been a substantial shift in the numbers of high-sec bots you're catching since the release of the mining barge buff?
Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators?
If you aren't seeing more bots in high-sec and the numbers have changed substantially since Fanfest, is it reasonable for players to ask for an update? I ask this because the new demographics for botting may explain how a less time-sensitive lower-risk form of AFK PVE is healthier for the game in high-sec than its equivalent elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
4977
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 07:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
We can hope to get answers to this soon, I'd also like to see some info on the work towards spambots. But so far silence
/c
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Journies End
146
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Posted - 2012.10.08 07:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Posting cuz Im curious if theyll give us an answer. Good questions. Strength isnt measured in numbers but in force of will. For if one motived willful individual stands many will fall around him that are weak.
http://tinyurl.com/YarrFace |
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
773
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 07:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Well there is a blogger who scans the website for botters. He hasn't posted any of them whining about gankers really. They did whine alot when sreegs launched his assault on them.
On his latest one, he said they complained about people reporting them, or other botters reporting them when they move into another botters territory.
Here is his site. The Nosy Gamer, go ask him if he has read them whining about gankers and how much a threat they are. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1393
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Posted - 2012.10.08 07:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well there is a blogger who scans the website for botters. He hasn't posted any of them whining about gankers really. They did whine alot when sreegs launched his assault on them. On his latest one, he said they complained about people reporting them, or other botters reporting them when they move into another botters territory. Here is his site. The Nosy Gamer, go ask him if he has read them whining about gankers and how much a threat they are. I posted an interrogatory comment. We'll see what comes of it.
Frankly I'm much more interested in what CCP Sreegs has to say on the matter. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
113
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Posted - 2012.10.08 09:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
rodyas wrote:Well there is a blogger who scans the website for botters. He hasn't posted any of them whining about gankers really. They did whine alot when sreegs launched his assault on them. On his latest one, he said they complained about people reporting them, or other botters reporting them when they move into another botters territory. Here is his site. The Nosy Gamer, go ask him if he has read them whining about gankers and how much a threat they are.
Botters don't complain about gankers because the bots are programmed to warp off as soon as anyone else enters the asteroid belts. Or they were anyway, potentially there could be a botting increase and they don't warp off if they feel totally safe from regular ganking. If I was botting and I lost a 200m ship once every 4 months or so when someone did it "for luls" it wouldn't bother me too much.
On the other hand maybe it's easier for CCP to detect botters if they aren't fleeing every time someone enters the system hence the change |
Mara Rinn
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1896
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 12:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators?
As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners.
The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
649
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 12:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's not fanfest yet. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
1757
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 12:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators? As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners. The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game. I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Mostly because the threat of being ganked for a bot is vastly different then the same threat for a player. A bot who can mine 23.5/7 can easily lose a ship and make up the difference that day where the player who may only have a few hours of time to play each day and is much more less efficient than the bot will take longer to make up the money lost by being ganked. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1402
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Posted - 2012.10.08 16:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators? As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners. The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game. I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Mostly because the threat of being ganked for a bot is vastly different then the same threat for a player. A bot who can mine 23.5/7 can easily lose a ship and make up the difference that day where the player who may only have a few hours of time to play each day and is much more less efficient than the bot will take longer to make up the money lost by being ganked. It will be interesting to see what CCP Sreegs has to say about it. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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ctx2007
Wychwood and Wells Beer needs you
154
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Posted - 2012.10.08 17:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
I only mine once in a while usually when i,m shipbuilding, but i,m guessing many full time miners are pretty sick to death of bot fleets raping the belts and RMT.
Something more needs to be done i,m sure. |
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
9
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Posted - 2012.10.08 18:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Frankly I'm much more interested in what CCP Sreegs has to say on the matter.
You didn't hurt my feelings But I hope that you don't demand that CCP Sreegs write the blog. CCP Stillman just gave a presentation at Eve Vegas that I hope he turns into a dev blog. That said, botters really don't post about getting ganked. There was a thread on one forum, but it stopped getting updated once Team Security really cranked their operations up. They do freak out about Hulkageddon, though.
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Mostly because the threat of being ganked for a bot is vastly different then the same threat for a player. A bot who can mine 23.5/7 can easily lose a ship and make up the difference that day where the player who may only have a few hours of time to play each day and is much more less efficient than the bot will take longer to make up the money lost by being ganked.
According to the botting forums I read, there is a name for bots who mine 23.5/7: banned. People who bot for more than 8 hours a day and post about getting banned are usually mocked, which cuts down on the tears. Last week I read one bot dev tell the users of his courier bot to not use it more than 6 hours a day and to not run it more than two hours in a single session.
The Nosy Gamer:-á WoW reeks of fun and playfulness but ensnares players into a deception that spells W*O*R*K. Eve is Icelandic with Calvinist overtones - yet in its straightjacket there is opportunity to find one's own way towards a demeanor of play. One is a fall into an abyss, the other, a rise from one to redemption. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1404
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Posted - 2012.10.08 19:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rosewalker wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Frankly I'm much more interested in what CCP Sreegs has to say on the matter.
You didn't hurt my feelings But I hope that you don't demand that CCP Sreegs write the blog. CCP Stillman just gave a presentation at Eve Vegas that I hope he turns into a dev blog. That said, botters really don't post about getting ganked. There was a thread on one forum, but it stopped getting updated once Team Security really cranked their operations up. They do freak out about Hulkageddon, though. Vertisce Soritenshi wrote: I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Mostly because the threat of being ganked for a bot is vastly different then the same threat for a player. A bot who can mine 23.5/7 can easily lose a ship and make up the difference that day where the player who may only have a few hours of time to play each day and is much more less efficient than the bot will take longer to make up the money lost by being ganked.
According to the botting forums I read, there is a name for bots who mine 23.5/7: banned. People who bot for more than 8 hours a day and post about getting banned are usually mocked, which cuts down on the tears. Last week I read one bot dev tell the users of his courier bot to not use it more than 6 hours a day and to not run it more than two hours in a single session. This is pretty insightful.
It's certainly interesting to note they weren't happy about Hulkageddon. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
909
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Posted - 2012.10.08 19:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:It's certainly interesting to note they weren't happy about Hulkageddon. Were they happy about the recent EHP increase? Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
777
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Posted - 2012.10.08 19:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
ctx2007 wrote:I only mine once in a while usually when i,m shipbuilding, but i,m guessing many full time miners are pretty sick to death of bot fleets raping the belts and RMT.
Something more needs to be done i,m sure.
How can you be sure of something you can't detect with player in game tools in the beginning???
There are a couple frustrated idiots in high sec not having the easy brainless gank available any more now bump some guy afk because they can, this is hilarious and actually demonstrates a lot about the nerdiness of some dudes.
They state you shouldn't have better or as much profits as them with their army of high sec alts: they just gank your ship before buff Now they're completely mad because they need to invest in ships to gank you, therefore you're a bot, you can't have kids, things to do rl or whatever because THEY decided if you do'nt respond to their nerdiness they simply bump you out of the belt.
There's not much to say about this but only that if you really wanted to go or see the greatest concentration of stupid you couldn't go at any better place or game then Eve online. Their number is really impressive and the single idea they actually can reproduce themselves just freaks me out.
Edit: @ Darth -good questions. Very interested in those incoming answers too. brb |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1409
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Scatim Helicon wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:It's certainly interesting to note they weren't happy about Hulkageddon. Were they happy about the recent EHP increase? What about the cavernous ore bays? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
254
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide.
Now, would you like him to create a dev blog with generic ramble (and herd it through corporate filters) or would you like to to keep his mouth (keyboard) shut and get on with his work of actually hitting people where it hurts (for them)?
If anything, the security team needs a PR member with the job to create Dev Blogs and provide fake info ;)
Oh, have I just outed Sreegs? ;)
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1409
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide.
Now, would you like him to create a dev blog with generic ramble (and herd it through corporate filters) or would you like to to keep his mouth (keyboard) shut and get on with his work of actually hitting people where it hurts (for them)? If anything, the security team needs a PR member with the job to create Dev Blogs and provide fake info ;) Oh, have I just outed Sreegs? ;) A casual answer on the forum will do. If there are more bots being caught mining now, that's that.
If there aren't any more, or in fact less, that's that too. I don't really intend to dispute facts.
Basically the only points I'd argue with Sreegs would be interpretive, such as if he says more bots are being caught now, but that doesn't have anything to do with the buff to mining barges and exhumers.
I would probably just happily accept the data, though, in spite of the interpretation which will obviously stand on its own merit, should it be forthcoming.
TL;DR: I sincerely believe Sreegs has nothing to lose by stating if there's a change in trends or not, and what he thinks about it. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1214
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
I'm wondering is anything came of the Scarlet Letter discussion. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2422
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 20:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators? As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners. The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game.
The vast bulk of kills when BAT Country did the caldari ice interdiction were bots. Its very simple to pick them out just by the way they act. The easyest is the pod that thinks its still in a barge and keepson warping to and from the station. A shocking amount of them would reship and go back to mining while we were still active. I think the record was 7 barges from one guy in a single day.
The scale of mining bots is shocking right now but they are by far not the only large scale operations going on. |
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1409
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators? As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners. The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game. The vast bulk of kills when BAT Country did the caldari ice interdiction were bots. Its very simple to pick them out just by the way they act. The easyest is the pod that thinks its still in a barge and keepson warping to and from the station. A shocking amount of them would reship and go back to mining while we were still active. I think the record was 7 barges from one guy in a single day. The scale of mining bots is shocking right now but they are by far not the only large scale operations going on. Not to mention that it's impossible to try to understand botting from a human perspective in the first place.
There's nobody home, McFly. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
254
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:28:00 -
[22] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide.
Now, would you like him to create a dev blog with generic ramble (and herd it through corporate filters) or would you like to to keep his mouth (keyboard) shut and get on with his work of actually hitting people where it hurts (for them)? If anything, the security team needs a PR member with the job to create Dev Blogs and provide fake info ;) Oh, have I just outed Sreegs? ;) A casual answer on the forum will do. If there are more bots being caught mining now, that's that. If there aren't any more, or in fact less, that's that too. I don't really intend to dispute facts. Basically the only points I'd argue with Sreegs would be interpretive, such as if he says more bots are being caught now, but that doesn't have anything to do with the buff to mining barges and exhumers. I would probably just happily accept the data, though, in spite of the interpretation which will obviously stand on its own merit, should it be forthcoming. TL;DR: I sincerely believe Sreegs has nothing to lose by stating if there's a change in trends or not, and what he thinks about it.
The problem (I think) is that Sreegs simply can do casual answers on the forums.
Because if he did it would get parroted and twisted on every wannabe newssite (as in mitts or ev24).
And most likely dissected and analysed on at least 19 different blogs (and Jester would most likely find at least three ways himself :)).
So I don't think that Sreegs actually can't just lob out some random figures and hope that people will be happy.
Whatever he writes will be seen as Canon from CCP.
So, TL;DR: He has a lot to lose by stating a change in trends unless he can whip up serious hard data.
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1409
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide.
Now, would you like him to create a dev blog with generic ramble (and herd it through corporate filters) or would you like to to keep his mouth (keyboard) shut and get on with his work of actually hitting people where it hurts (for them)? If anything, the security team needs a PR member with the job to create Dev Blogs and provide fake info ;) Oh, have I just outed Sreegs? ;) A casual answer on the forum will do. If there are more bots being caught mining now, that's that. If there aren't any more, or in fact less, that's that too. I don't really intend to dispute facts. Basically the only points I'd argue with Sreegs would be interpretive, such as if he says more bots are being caught now, but that doesn't have anything to do with the buff to mining barges and exhumers. I would probably just happily accept the data, though, in spite of the interpretation which will obviously stand on its own merit, should it be forthcoming. TL;DR: I sincerely believe Sreegs has nothing to lose by stating if there's a change in trends or not, and what he thinks about it. The problem (I think) is that Sreegs simply can do casual answers on the forums. Because if he did it would get parroted and twisted on every wannabe newssite (as in mitts or ev24). And most likely dissected and analysed on at least 19 different blogs (and Jester would most likely find at least three ways himself :)). So I don't think that Sreegs actually can't just lob out some random figures and hope that people will be happy. Whatever he writes will be seen as Canon from CCP. So, TL;DR: He has a lot to lose by stating a change in trends unless he can whip up serious hard data. Only if the data presents a very weak case for CCP does he have anything to lose.
And even then, it seems it would be in CCP's best interest to address this straightaway rather than skirt it.
After all, what's good for the goose, etc. Besides, simple data without interpretation would be just fine.
Facts should be facts, otherwise we can't discuss anything but theorycraft and rumor. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
254
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 20:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
Snip since we're getting gritty and people can scroll back
Darth Gustav wrote: Only if the data presents a very weak case for CCP does he have anything to lose.
And even then, it seems it would be in CCP's best interest to address this straightaway rather than skirt it.
After all, what's good for the goose, etc. Besides, simple data without interpretation would be just fine.
Facts should be facts, otherwise we can't discuss anything but theorycraft and rumor.
There's very few cases of data that are absolutely conclusive (except in mathematics).
CCP has every reason to not to hand out actual figures because they can be used to compare their success to other games more or less actual facts.
So there's a good reason why PR/Market doesn't like down and gritty people talk numbers.
And it's because no-one else is that stupid.
I do agree that facts should be facts, and everything else is theorycraft (also known as marketing).
However, despite Sreegs being (a hopefully former) Goon, I don't rate him as low as actually working in marketing.
TL:DR Facts are Facts. Marketing isn't related. And people not in marketing will not be allowed to speak for any company unless approved by the same. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
344
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:CCP Sreegs, has there been a substantial shift in the numbers of high-sec bots you're catching since the release of the mining barge buff?
Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators?
If you aren't seeing more bots in high-sec and the numbers have changed substantially since Fanfest, is it reasonable for players to ask for an update? I ask this because the new demographics for botting may explain how a less time-sensitive lower-risk form of AFK PVE is healthier for the game in high-sec than its equivalent elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide. I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
66
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Posted - 2012.10.08 21:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
386
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. Most EVE Vegas presentations come out as devblogs sooner rather then later.
http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com./
Is a good location to find otu what was sayed. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
255
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:26:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
And might we guess that the data you released was "average" and that you had full freedom to discuss about those average figures?
Been there, done that, been on the next tier to decide what level of average is average enough too ;)
People please, continue to chase CCP for for data.
But don't chase Sreegs, Stillman or the rest of their team.
If you had any idea of their job you'd know that they want to talk facts.
But often is not useful, and sometimes not allowed.
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
344
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Posted - 2012.10.08 22:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. The sessions were streamed on eve-radio. I imagine they'll be released later. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
344
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Posted - 2012.10.08 22:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Salpun wrote:captain foivos wrote:Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. Most EVE Vegas presentations come out as devblogs sooner rather then later. http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com./ Is a good location to find otu what was sayed. I can write it into a dev blog too. But please give us some time, as I'm currently in Vegas still and Sreegs has his hands full right now. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
344
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Posted - 2012.10.08 22:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
And might we guess that the data you released was "average" and that you had full freedom to discuss about those average figures? Been there, done that, been on the next tier to decide what level of average is average enough too ;) People please, continue to chase CCP for for data. But don't chase Sreegs, Stillman or the rest of their team. If you had any idea of their job you'd know that they want to talk facts. But often is not useful, and sometimes not allowed. I'm the only one with the data. I do all the backend work, data gathering and analytics. So if you want data, I'll be the one to crunch it, be it Sreegs or myself that publishes it.
Again, I'll look at the data and see if it makes sense to discuss. But not until I'm back in the office later this week and have time to discuss it with Sreegs, who's kinda busy this month. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
773
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Salpun wrote:captain foivos wrote:Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. Most EVE Vegas presentations come out as devblogs sooner rather then later. http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com./ Is a good location to find otu what was sayed. I can write it into a dev blog too. But please give us some time, as I'm currently in Vegas still and Sreegs has his hands full right now.
Dead prostitutes? I am guessing. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1419
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 02:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
And might we guess that the data you released was "average" and that you had full freedom to discuss about those average figures? Been there, done that, been on the next tier to decide what level of average is average enough too ;) People please, continue to chase CCP for for data. But don't chase Sreegs, Stillman or the rest of their team. If you had any idea of their job you'd know that they want to talk facts. But often is not useful, and sometimes not allowed. I'm the only one with the data. I do all the backend work, data gathering and analytics. So if you want data, I'll be the one to crunch it, be it Sreegs or myself that publishes it. Again, I'll look at the data and see if it makes sense to discuss. But not until I'm back in the office later this week and have time to discuss it with Sreegs, who's kinda busy this month. Our sincere thanks for your attention and your efforts. Hopefully the data isn't too controversial!
An informed player, after all. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
257
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 13:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
And might we guess that the data you released was "average" and that you had full freedom to discuss about those average figures? Been there, done that, been on the next tier to decide what level of average is average enough too ;) People please, continue to chase CCP for for data. But don't chase Sreegs, Stillman or the rest of their team. If you had any idea of their job you'd know that they want to talk facts. But often is not useful, and sometimes not allowed. I'm the only one with the data. I do all the backend work, data gathering and analytics. So if you want data, I'll be the one to crunch it, be it Sreegs or myself that publishes it. Again, I'll look at the data and see if it makes sense to discuss. But not until I'm back in the office later this week and have time to discuss it with Sreegs, who's kinda busy this month. Our sincere thanks for your attention and your efforts. Hopefully the data isn't too controversial! An informed player, after all. This indeed.
Thanks for the work, any eventual data and your willingness to discuss the issues with us.
|
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1433
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 18:09:00 -
[35] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
And might we guess that the data you released was "average" and that you had full freedom to discuss about those average figures? Been there, done that, been on the next tier to decide what level of average is average enough too ;) People please, continue to chase CCP for for data. But don't chase Sreegs, Stillman or the rest of their team. If you had any idea of their job you'd know that they want to talk facts. But often is not useful, and sometimes not allowed. I'm the only one with the data. I do all the backend work, data gathering and analytics. So if you want data, I'll be the one to crunch it, be it Sreegs or myself that publishes it. Again, I'll look at the data and see if it makes sense to discuss. But not until I'm back in the office later this week and have time to discuss it with Sreegs, who's kinda busy this month. Our sincere thanks for your attention and your efforts. Hopefully the data isn't too controversial! An informed player, after all. This indeed. Thanks for the work, any eventual data and your willingness to discuss the issues with us. The more time goes by, the more I'm on pins and needles for the results. CCP Stillman, be the hero! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1440
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 05:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
I don't mean to look like a jerk, but if you can't give the data, can you at least say, "We can't give this data?"
Knowing data on it exists is killing me.
Thanks very much. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Mars Theran
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
346
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 06:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I don't mean to look like a jerk, but if you can't give the data, can you at least say, "We can't give this data?"
Knowing data on it exists is killing me.
Thanks very much.
I think you might want to wait until he gets back to his computer at work, as he said he is still in Vegas, and he left out data that was on his computer at work. There is also much crunching involved apparently; I'm not sure if it's bones, or chips, but there's crunching. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1441
|
Posted - 2012.10.10 06:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:I don't mean to look like a jerk, but if you can't give the data, can you at least say, "We can't give this data?"
Knowing data on it exists is killing me.
Thanks very much. I think you might want to wait until he gets back to his computer at work, as he said he is still in Vegas, and he left out data that was on his computer at work. There is also much crunching involved apparently; I'm not sure if it's bones, or chips, but there's crunching. Quite a fair point. Apologies.
I didn't realize Vegas was still going, and noticed it had been a bit.
Once again, thank you CCP Stillman, and I apologize for my abruptness. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1646
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 16:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
Bump.
Time went by, the relevancy of the information hasn't elapsed.
Did the mining buff yield more botters in high-sec ice belts? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Sgt Napalm
Creative Cookie Procuring Brushie Brushie Brushie
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 17:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. |
|
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
569
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 17:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas.
this is what comes of 'filling your hands in Vegas'. ---- CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
642
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 17:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. this is what comes of 'filling your hands in Vegas'.
Apparently "what happens in Vegas..."
Yeah, I went there.
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
Krimzin Majere
The Scope Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 18:11:00 -
[43] - Quote
Hopefully they weren't involved in another sequel to "The Hangover". |
Sgt Napalm
Creative Cookie Procuring Brushie Brushie Brushie
7
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 18:16:00 -
[44] - Quote
Have you seen the photos on twitter? Lot's of bromance. |
Heimdallofasgard
Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension
287
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 18:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hmm... Bumping Kick Heim... MATE |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1666
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 22:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:Hmm... Bumping A good point.
Has the New Order's bumping campaign's escalation had any impact on the botting numbers since Eve Vegas?
What about the renewed ice interdiction?
Most importantly, though, did botting in high-sec rise significantly following the barge/exhumer buff? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Akiyo Mayaki
Industrial Justice Corporation
5
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 23:21:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:CCP Sreegs, has there been a substantial shift in the numbers of high-sec bots you're catching since the release of the mining barge buff?
Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators?
If you aren't seeing more bots in high-sec and the numbers have changed substantially since Fanfest, is it reasonable for players to ask for an update? I ask this because the new demographics for botting may explain how a less time-sensitive lower-risk form of AFK PVE is healthier for the game in high-sec than its equivalent elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide. I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work. I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
Say though one more time |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1666
|
Posted - 2012.11.15 23:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:CCP Sreegs, has there been a substantial shift in the numbers of high-sec bots you're catching since the release of the mining barge buff?
Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators?
If you aren't seeing more bots in high-sec and the numbers have changed substantially since Fanfest, is it reasonable for players to ask for an update? I ask this because the new demographics for botting may explain how a less time-sensitive lower-risk form of AFK PVE is healthier for the game in high-sec than its equivalent elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for any responses you can provide. I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work. I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though. Say though one more time I'm not entirely sure what you meant here.
I don't see how the breakdown by region or profession (or whatever demographic) would have been appropriate at Eve Vegas but somehow inappropriate on these forums, which events such as Fanfest and Eve Vegas are an extension of.
I'm hoping that if the information is out there, we can get it. That would be the best way to draw conclusions about this topic.
If we cannot have it anymore, I'd like it for CCP to just tell us that so we can make our conclusions from there. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
12
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 09:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
Say though one more time I'm not entirely sure what you meant here. I don't see how the breakdown by region or profession (or whatever demographic) would have been appropriate at Eve Vegas but somehow inappropriate on these forums, which events such as Fanfest and Eve Vegas are an extension of. I'm hoping that if the information is out there, we can get it. That would be the best way to draw conclusions about this topic. If we cannot have it anymore, I'd like it for CCP to just tell us that so we can make our conclusions from there.
He said nothing about appropriate, he forgot to give the breakdown by region at Vegas but would like that to be part of what he gives out. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1699
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 18:44:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ruskarn Andedare wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Akiyo Mayaki wrote:CCP Stillman wrote: I gave a presentation about our progress at EVE Vegas on Saturday. But it was pointed out to me afterwards that I forgot to include the breaking by region that I had on my machine at work.
I don't know what the answer is though at present. I'll have a look at the data when I get home though. But no promise though.
Say though one more time I'm not entirely sure what you meant here. I don't see how the breakdown by region or profession (or whatever demographic) would have been appropriate at Eve Vegas but somehow inappropriate on these forums, which events such as Fanfest and Eve Vegas are an extension of. I'm hoping that if the information is out there, we can get it. That would be the best way to draw conclusions about this topic. If we cannot have it anymore, I'd like it for CCP to just tell us that so we can make our conclusions from there. He said nothing about appropriate, he forgot to give the breakdown by region at Vegas but would like that to be part of what he gives out. Gotcha.
CCP Stillman? CCP Sreegs? Any comments at all? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
|
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1757
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 19:30:00 -
[51] - Quote
Still waiting. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
942
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 21:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Would you say, based on your response to the above, the threat of ganking was a deterrent to potential mining bot operators? As a human who partakes in mining, I would expect that the threat of ganking has a greater impact on the population of human miners. Thus I would expect that the introduction of the new barges has increased the population of human miners. The claim of "fighting bots" has only ever been a rationalisation on the part of the gankers. Just own up to the fact that you enjoy hunting the lowest form of prey in the game. I would tend to agree with this sentiment. Mostly because the threat of being ganked for a bot is vastly different then the same threat for a player. A bot who can mine 23.5/7 can easily lose a ship and make up the difference that day where the player who may only have a few hours of time to play each day and is much more less efficient than the bot will take longer to make up the money lost by being ganked. It will be interesting to see what CCP Sreegs has to say about it.
I guess gank needs nerfs and not buffs like they're giving to at next expansion. Because idiots being idiots the word miner=bot and I expect a lot of usual same boring common old rabble about inflation and miners and bots...
Buff gank mean take away players interested in that activity, be it afk cigarette coffee poo whatsoever, but doing it a couple hours a day. But will change absolutely nothing about bots still making huge amounts of isk and easily covering their losses. Excellent move from CCP and gankers about shooting their own foot. I can smell it from here. brb |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1762
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 21:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote: I guess gank needs nerfs and not buffs like they're giving to at next expansion. Because idiots being idiots the word miner=bot and I expect a lot of usual same boring common old rabble about inflation and miners and bots...
Buff gank mean take away players interested in that activity, be it afk cigarette coffee poo whatsoever, but doing it a couple hours a day. But will change absolutely nothing about bots still making huge amounts of isk and easily covering their losses. Excellent move from CCP and gankers about shooting their own foot. I can smell it from here.
The real excellent move came yesterday:
CCP Falcon wrote:So, I just spoke to the GM Team regarding this to get some clarification:
Firstly, people who are bumped always have the right to petition. It is the right of any player who feels that they want to petition an issue to do so.
However, with regards to the rules in EVE Online our current view is:
Bumping is not considered harassment. Bumping is not considered griefing. Bumping is not against the rules.
It's actually been used for a long time to prevent warping as a rudimentary form of tackling when you don't have a point, or don't have sufficient disruption strength to keep someone pinned.
Along with that, the people that are doing this for the best part are in player corporations. If you don't like what they're doing, declare war on them so that you can punish them, or pay a merc corp to do so on your behalf if you don't want to fight.
There are plenty of options to counter this, if you use your imagination. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
11
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 21:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
I hate so say it, but i too would also like to know if this "New Order" has actually had an impact.. Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
942
|
Posted - 2012.11.17 22:05:00 -
[55] - Quote
Melvin Coulter wrote:I hate so say it, but i too would also like to know if this "New Order" has actually had an impact..
As much as the previous gankageddon on hulks: none but make clean place for the biggest botters in eve. Why would you spend so much energy and time with space pixels and fake threats&fears unless this costs you real money?
The one doing because of some sort of veldspar bushido code is an idiot the one pretending he's a good guy and care more about the "ho so important internet space ships economics" in my eyes acts more like a real money trader/botter than the other way around. brb |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1764
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 01:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Melvin Coulter wrote:I hate so say it, but i too would also like to know if this "New Order" has actually had an impact.. As much as the previous gankageddon on hulks: none but make clean place for the biggest botters in eve. Why would you spend so much energy and time with space pixels and fake threats&fears unless this costs you real money? The one doing because of some sort of veldspar bushido code is an idiot the one pretending he's a good guy and care more about the "ho so important internet space ships economics" in my eyes acts more like a real money trader/botter than the other way around. As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
475
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 01:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Still waiting.
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1772
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Still waiting. Thanks for the support.
Still waiting. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
17
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 19:35:00 -
[59] - Quote
Dev dev were art thou? Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries Exiliar Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 20:33:00 -
[60] - Quote
I hope for an answer as well |
|
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
949
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think.
Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions.
I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price.
brb |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1775
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions. I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price. So basically you're saying there's no information to be had here, even if there is?
I'm not sure I understand why you would argue that your assumptions are better data than the real thing would be.
Regardless of your actual assumpions, that seems pretty deluded.
Thanks again, but I still hope for a reply from CCP about this. I think these are valid questions. Did botting in high-sec increase after the barge buffs?
That's what the OP asks. The question about the New Order's bumping campaign was tertiary. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:55:00 -
[63] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions. I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price. So basically you're saying there's no information to be had here, even if there is? I'm not sure I understand why you would argue that your assumptions are better data than the real thing would be. Regardless of your actual assumpions, that seems pretty deluded. Thanks again, but I still hope for a reply from CCP about this. I think these are valid questions. Did botting in high-sec increase after the barge buffs? That's what the OP asks. The question about the New Order's bumping campaign was tertiary. GENTLEMEN! AND LADY!
clam yourself!
we will have the answer once a dev answers!
Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1775
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:56:00 -
[64] - Quote
Melvin Coulter wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions. I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price. So basically you're saying there's no information to be had here, even if there is? I'm not sure I understand why you would argue that your assumptions are better data than the real thing would be. Regardless of your actual assumpions, that seems pretty deluded. Thanks again, but I still hope for a reply from CCP about this. I think these are valid questions. Did botting in high-sec increase after the barge buffs? That's what the OP asks. The question about the New Order's bumping campaign was tertiary. GENTLEMEN! AND LADY! clam yourself! we will have the answer once a dev answers! Eve Vegas didn't last a month and ten days did it? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
949
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:57:00 -
[65] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions. I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price. So basically you're saying there's no information to be had here, even if there is? I'm not sure I understand why you would argue that your assumptions are better data than the real thing would be. Regardless of your actual assumpions, that seems pretty deluded. Thanks again, but I still hope for a reply from CCP about this. I think these are valid questions. Did botting in high-sec increase after the barge buffs? That's what the OP asks. The question about the New Order's bumping campaign was tertiary.
Don't get me wrong, I'm also waiting that data. You probably forgot about it but I previously said that if the mining barges buff would make of high sec botland per excellence as you and Zim stated, I'd come back to say I was wrong.
Now I'm only hoping if the numbers show it differently that you are a nice guy and actually post your assumptions were wrong, but I already know you will not and actually will find a little number somewhere to justify your arguments even if you have to make the blind guy on obvious numbers.
brb |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1775
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 22:59:00 -
[66] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:As valuable as your opinion is, CCP Stillman would be a better source I think. Thx for giving me so much credit and let me refrain it again: you have as much impact on bots whatsoever as you had before with other tactics: little to none. And again the only impact you refuse to admit you might actually have is on some players number of subscriptions. I'm quite sure you already have the old same answer and rabble about it, no one serious around expects you to admit it and already knows you don't care since it's not your problem but CCP's one. Therefore if you really had some interesting impact I guess they should have already gave you a forum medal or invite you for some Eve economics Noble price. So basically you're saying there's no information to be had here, even if there is? I'm not sure I understand why you would argue that your assumptions are better data than the real thing would be. Regardless of your actual assumpions, that seems pretty deluded. Thanks again, but I still hope for a reply from CCP about this. I think these are valid questions. Did botting in high-sec increase after the barge buffs? That's what the OP asks. The question about the New Order's bumping campaign was tertiary. Don't get me wrong, I'm also waiting that data. You probably forgot about it but I previously said that if the mining barges buff would make of high sec botland per excellence as you and Zim stated, I'd come back to say I was wrong. Now I'm only hoping if the numbers show it differently that you are a nice guy and actually post your assumptions were wrong, but I already know you will not and actually will find a little number somewhere to justify your arguments even if you have to make the blind guy on obvious numbers. Search these forums for my name and the phrase "I stand corrected" before making allegations such as this.
I would absolutely admit my error in the light of proof of said error.
There's a body of evidence to support as much, too. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.18 23:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
*face plam*
FOR THE LOVE OF THE AMARRIAN GODS! CAN WE GET A DEV?! Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1777
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 18:25:00 -
[68] - Quote
Face Palm is right.
Eve Vegas was over, when?
We're still waiting CCP. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
27
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 18:26:00 -
[69] - Quote
well maybe if we go off topic?
they seem to appear for that.
Waiting for dev... Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1777
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
Melvin Coulter wrote:well maybe if we go off topic?
they seem to appear for that.
Waiting for dev... Fine. Story time.
When I started my first free 14 day trial for Eve nearly eight years ago, CCP had no trouble telling me right in the login screen (it was a news item) that I couldn't log in on my free trial because they were trying to combat macro-miners (I'm not joking that's what they called them) by throttling free trial logins.
I literally couldn't try Eve Online when the download finished because of bot miners tying up connection sockets. Bots and the AFK miners who so closely mimic them literally kept me from being able to try Eve. So I want to know if game changes favor that which I have come to loathe in Eve Online for game-health and economic reasons alike.
Seven years later and here we are. Mum's the word on "macro-miners," who somehow still seem (at least from a recent game design standpoint) to be Preferred CustomersTM.
So I went off-topic a little bit, but then I went back on-topic to keep it legit. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
953
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 20:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Melvin Coulter wrote:well maybe if we go off topic?
they seem to appear for that.
Waiting for dev... Fine. Story time. When I started my first free 14 day trial for Eve nearly eight years ago, CCP had no trouble telling me right in the login screen (it was a news item) that I couldn't log in on my free trial because they were trying to combat macro-miners (I'm not joking that's what they called them) by throttling free trial logins. I literally couldn't try Eve Online when the download finished because of bot miners tying up connection sockets. Bots and the AFK miners who so closely mimic them literally kept me from being able to try Eve. So I want to know if game changes favor that which I have come to loathe in Eve Online for game-health and economic reasons alike. Seven years later and here we are. Mum's the word on "macro-miners," who somehow still seem (at least from a recent game design standpoint) to be Preferred CustomersTM. So I went off-topic a little bit, but then I went back on-topic to keep it legit.
So it's all about an earlier age psychological trauma?
OK ok, I'm out, and for good this time. brb |
Gevlin
SMANews.net SpaceMonkey's Alliance
195
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 20:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
I would looking through he past postings of the Nosey gamer as he has been tracking the activity o te tears of botters
At http://nosygamer.blogspot.ca/ Some day I will have the internet and be able to play again. |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
27
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 20:59:00 -
[73] - Quote
*suddenly a mythical dev appears* Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
405
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 21:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Maybe, just maybe, CCP has other things on its mind that answering this thread (I think there is some kind of release that overhauls 4 different game systems arriving in 2 weeks), though I do believe it is a valid question re: botting.
But maybe you should also consider a few things:
1. Trit and Pyerite are not far off their 1 year high (could be a lot longer than that). 2. Demand for mins is not going down with the increased min requirements for T1 cruisers Dec 5th, unless of course null sec decides not every player needs his own supercap. 3. Whether it is true or not, the rage against miners just seems to ratchet up further, and I would be very surprised if goons et al do not start up some kind of bounty griefing campaign against miners Dec 4th.
Putting all those things together, maybe, just maybe, CCP has decided that not only do they like the additional subs they get with mining bots, but CCP has also decided that the CCP economy NEEDS mining bots to keep mineral prices down, until they can overhaul supercap min requirements. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
953
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 21:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
Gevlin wrote:I would looking through he past postings of the Nosey gamer as he has been tracking the activity o te tears of botters At http://nosygamer.blogspot.ca/
Self explanatory why so many threads tearing about isk value in game. Needs more isk in the game, not less, let RMT tears commence.
This explains that. Heck I'm still around when I clearly shouldn't... brb |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
483
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 02:11:00 -
[76] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Putting all those things together, maybe, just maybe, CCP has decided that not only do they like the additional subs they get with mining bots, but CCP has also decided that the CCP economy NEEDS mining bots to keep mineral prices down, until they can overhaul supercap min requirements.
Typical botter response if I'm honest. Bots ruin the game full stop. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
28
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 02:14:00 -
[77] - Quote
all of you just please stop.
All we have to do is wait or SCREAM for a dev. Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
407
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 06:10:00 -
[78] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Putting all those things together, maybe, just maybe, CCP has decided that not only do they like the additional subs they get with mining bots, but CCP has also decided that the CCP economy NEEDS mining bots to keep mineral prices down, until they can overhaul supercap min requirements.
Typical botter response if I'm honest. Bots ruin the game full stop.
Let's see....first you promise to grief me out of the game with bounties on my head. Now you are stating I am a bot. I don't think honesty is something you can fathom.
Go for it. File a petition stating that this account is running bots. CCP will be able to look at my activity in about 5 minutes and see that you are lying.
But I would expect something as cowardly from you. Only 14 days to go sleaze. Have you started your grief fund yet against me? Like I said in one of my posts to you, which of course you ignored, that 500M against me is not even something I will begin to worry about. You better add a zero to that before I get worried.
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Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
488
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 09:51:00 -
[79] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:[quote=Inquisitor Kitchner][quote=Dinsdale Pirannha] Like I said in one of my posts to you, which of course you ignored, that 500M against me is not even something I will begin to worry about. You better add a zero to that before I get worried.
You should probably think a bit more about that.
A 500m bounty is enough to ensure that you can't fly anything too expensive without making it worth someone's while to kill you.
20% of your ship value is payed out, so 500m actually covers all the way up to a ship worth 2.5bil.
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
570
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 10:09:00 -
[80] - Quote
Keep things civil folks. The guys who know the numbers know this thread exists, but things are obviously very busy around the office as we ramp up to Retribution. Additionally, Sreegs is one of the main dudes running the New Eden Open.
I can't promise you anything, but I suspect they'll have more time to get answers after Retribution launches when they can properly sit down and present the information fully. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
369
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 10:45:00 -
[81] - Quote
Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. This is actually pretty close.
I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this.
I ran the numbers. And if anything, we're seeing a lower number of bots we're catching in high-sec, in favor of 0.0. But I don't think the trend is big enough for it to be more than speculation. To give you an idea, a best fit line on the data I have is like this:
High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651
You can sort of deduce from that how low-sec plays out. But regardless, I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from this data. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
2893
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 10:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. This is actually pretty close. I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this. I ran the numbers. And if anything, we're seeing a lower number of bots we're catching in high-sec, in favor of 0.0. But I don't think the trend is big enough for it to be more than speculation. To give you an idea, a best fit line on the data I have is like this: High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 You can sort of deduce from that how low-sec plays out. But regardless, I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from this data.
As a lover of numbers and graphs I have to ask if it is possible to see what kind of impact the two ice interdictions had on bot numbers at the start of the year also what impact the drone changes have had. We know they were raging but we do love our numbers and graphs. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
488
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 10:50:00 -
[83] - Quote
+1 for Dev response.
I still think EVE devs are pretty unique in the way they interact with the playerbase, so thank you. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1778
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 18:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. This is actually pretty close. I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this. I ran the numbers. And if anything, we're seeing a lower number of bots we're catching in high-sec, in favor of 0.0. But I don't think the trend is big enough for it to be more than speculation. To give you an idea, a best fit line on the data I have is like this: High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 You can sort of deduce from that how low-sec plays out. But regardless, I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from this data. Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1159
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 18:47:00 -
[85] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. This is actually pretty close. I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this. I ran the numbers. And if anything, we're seeing a lower number of bots we're catching in high-sec, in favor of 0.0. But I don't think the trend is big enough for it to be more than speculation. To give you an idea, a best fit line on the data I have is like this: High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 You can sort of deduce from that how low-sec plays out. But regardless, I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from this data. Sorry to hear about your illness. 4 weeks? Rough, and totally not fun.
Thanks for responding. Questions:
Are Y1 and Y2 the number of bots caught? Per hour? Per day? Per week? Is this per solar system or for the entire area ? Or is it per 1000 players?
Is x the system security? Or day of the year, or...?
Why the conclusion that most are caught in null sec? in both equations the effect of x is small, so the constant dominates. High sec has this at 0.773. Null sec is about one quarter of that value: 0.1651. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1778
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 18:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Sgt Napalm wrote:Sadly, Stillman and Streggs were never seen again after Vegas. This is actually pretty close. I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this. I ran the numbers. And if anything, we're seeing a lower number of bots we're catching in high-sec, in favor of 0.0. But I don't think the trend is big enough for it to be more than speculation. To give you an idea, a best fit line on the data I have is like this: High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 You can sort of deduce from that how low-sec plays out. But regardless, I don't think we can really draw any conclusion from this data. Sorry to hear about your illness. 4 weeks? Rough, and totally not fun. Thanks for responding. Questions: Are Y1 and Y2 the number of bots caught? Per hour? Per day? Per week? Is this per solar system or for the entire area ? Or is it per 1000 players? Is x the system security? Or day of the year, or...? Why the conclusion that most are caught in null sec? in both equations the effect of x is small, so the constant dominates. High sec has this at 0.773. Null sec is about one quarter of that value: 0.1651.
That costant is addative. It's linear algebra. When the line slopes down far enough the constant vanishes. It's only there to determine positioning. The "small term" of "x" determines the slope of the line. The "constant" as you refer to it is actually the y-intercept.
So we have orientation of the line from its slope (very gradual reduction in high-sec, very gradual increase in low) and the y-intercept (your costant) basically tells us where to put it.
As it were. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
ctx2007
Wychwood and Wells Beer needs you
186
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 18:57:00 -
[87] - Quote
rodyas wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:Salpun wrote:captain foivos wrote:Thanks, but I wasn't at Eve Vegas. Most EVE Vegas presentations come out as devblogs sooner rather then later. http://lowseclifestyle.blogspot.com./ Is a good location to find otu what was sayed. I can write it into a dev blog too. But please give us some time, as I'm currently in Vegas still and Sreegs has his hands full right now. Dead prostitutes? I am guessing.
Hahahahahha! |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2763
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 19:22:00 -
[88] - Quote
Quote:I got sick in Vegas and was out sick for 4 weeks. That caused me to completely forget about this.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
369
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 21:11:00 -
[89] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have slightly reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected.
Edit: Thanks for the data, Stillman. Your reply is very well appareciated.
Re-edit: Also, glad you're feeling better. Apparently not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas after all.
I still question the idea that the change was inherently bot friendly vs AFK friendly.
To be specific I wonder if things like reduced need for trips to unload and/or increased EHP for gank resistance reduced the gains from bot usage to a point where they were not worth the risk of detection given the revitalization of CCP's bot detection and banning initiatives. At the very least it can probably be concluded that they gains of botting weren't worth risking detection for those not already engaged in the practice as AFK mining got easier. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 21:37:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have slightly reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected.
Edit: Thanks for the data, Stillman. Your reply is very well appareciated.
Re-edit: Also, glad you're feeling better. Apparently not everything that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas after all.
I still question the idea that the change was inherently bot friendly vs AFK friendly. To be specific I wonder if things like reduced need for trips to unload and/or increased EHP for gank resistance reduced the gains from bot usage to a point where they were not worth the risk of detection given the revitalization of CCP's bot detection and banning initiatives. At the very least it can probably be concluded that they gains of botting weren't worth risking detection for those not already engaged in the practice as AFK mining got easier.
Mining bots are for kids and stupid, CCP Shreegs did an awesome job at kicking those right in the face and still does, however the most difficult ones to spot, at least it seems, are market bots.
If you realise or at least imagine how much isk trade bots can do, then you should logically figure out the rest of the process.
What are bots used for? -always for real money in the end. Even if the guy starts by just buying shiny ships/mods it ends selling isk for money because there's demand. Where does this demand comes from? -look at plex prices and do you researches on the internet, search for threads in this very same forum confusing isk with real money, and you should then be able to figure out where's their new "El Dorado".
Bingo, you got it. Yes there are guys around only login in for this reason, because isk for them = money, real money.
1 or 2 trillions of isk, which shouldn't be that difficult to do with a couple market bots in a month x $29/Billion isk (average) I'll let you run the numbers to figure out why some take this isk inflation/deflation so seriously.
The game doesn't need less isk, the game needs more isk, like it or hate it it's a fact.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2001
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 00:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have slightly reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected.
I think I have said to you some days ago what now is stated by numbers.
The big cargo hold is all what real miners always wanted (since mining is so boring, then make it easy to AFK it).
Big cargo = no need for a bot to empty the ship for you, 1 manual unload per hour allows lots of AFKing without automated programs.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1802
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 00:16:00 -
[92] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have slightly reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected.
I think I have said to you some days ago what now is stated by numbers. The big cargo hold is all what real miners always wanted (since mining is so boring, then make it easy to AFK it). Big cargo = no need for a bot to empty the ship for you, 1 manual unload per hour allows lots of AFKing without automated programs. I operated under the impression prior to Stillman's comment, that because AFK mining only required one input per hour it would favor botting because bot activity would not be distinguishable from normal gameplay due to infrequent inputs.
I suppose it's possible that I'm more right about that than I realized and that the speculatively lowering trend is due to decreasing ease-of-detection. But I sincerely doubt that, so I'm taking Stillman at his word.
They're catching marginally less botters than they used to catch in high-sec post-barge buff.
Enjoy your "I told you so's," I guess, if that's what you need to do.
This changes nothing about my opinion of the barge buffs and their negative impact on Eve's economy. Those points remain clearly valid. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
254
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 00:31:00 -
[93] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Lin was right then, apparently, and I'll admit that my presumption was speculatively wrong (as even Stillman mentions the trend isn't big enough to be more than speculation).
Strangely, bot-friendly game design appears to have slightly reduced the number of bots caught in high-sec.
I've got to admit I didn't see this coming. I stand corrected.
I think I have said to you some days ago what now is stated by numbers. The big cargo hold is all what real miners always wanted (since mining is so boring, then make it easy to AFK it). Big cargo = no need for a bot to empty the ship for you, 1 manual unload per hour allows lots of AFKing without automated programs. I operated under the impression prior to Stillman's comment, that because AFK mining only required one input per hour it would favor botting because bot activity would not be distinguishable from normal gameplay due to infrequent inputs. I suppose it's possible that I'm more right about that than I realized and that the speculatively lowering trend is due to decreasing ease-of-detection. But I sincerely doubt that, so I'm taking Stillman at his word. They're catching marginally less botters than they used to catch in high-sec post-barge buff. Enjoy your "I told you so's," I guess, if that's what you need to do. This changes nothing about my opinion of the barge buffs and their negative impact on Eve's economy. Those points remain clearly valid.
Or in other words revert the barge EHP buffs to the Hulk and Mackinaw instead of waiting until some horrible economic disaster occurs to do something. npc alts aren't people |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
2096
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 03:46:00 -
[94] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:I operated under the impression prior to Stillman's comment, that because AFK mining only required one input per hour it would favor botting because bot activity would not be distinguishable from normal gameplay due to infrequent inputs.
Bots are used to automate repetitive, mechanical activities. AFK mining doesn't involve repetitive, mechanical activities. AFK mining in a mackinaw is within the capacity of a human operating their mining ship on a laptop to the side of their work computer, without feeling too guilty about shirking work.
Mackinaws have degraded mining to the level that you don't need a bot to do it for you.
Darth Gustav wrote:This changes nothing about my opinion of the barge buffs and their negative impact on Eve's economy. Those points remain clearly valid.
No argument from me on this issue. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2001
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 10:10:00 -
[95] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Enjoy your "I told you so's," I guess, if that's what you need to do.
This changes nothing about my opinion of the barge buffs and their negative impact on Eve's economy. Those points remain clearly valid.
I don't exactly enjoy being right, I try figure out why other people did not think I was right.
I think a big part of people disagreeing with me is that they talk without prior having extensive experience in what they discuss.
As trader with some research alts, I found out I can pad the pockets if I put both the trading alts (remote trading trained) and the (otherwise unused) research alts onto mining. So I know what really affects miners and I also listen all day long what they tell each other.
Also, despite I have been heavily and negatively impacted by the mining buffs, I am not sure it had a negative impact on EvE's economy. The ISK inflation imo has worse effects by far and the drone regions should be deprived of perma bottable ISK faucets. CCP could have just risen minerals requirement on every built item so they'd made minerals less depressed (back at the time of course) while not introducing the next, unchecked, bottable ISK faucet. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 12:08:00 -
[96] - Quote
I am bad with maths. Does the data show anything else that CCP catches even less bots now after the changes that make bots indistinguishable from bot-aspirant AFK miners? |
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
66
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 13:23:00 -
[97] - Quote
SaKoil wrote:I am bad with maths. Does the data show anything else that CCP catches even less bots now after the changes that make bots indistinguishable from bot-aspirant AFK miners?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%3Dmx%2Bc
What screegs posted was the equation for a linear graph.
High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651
The y is the vertical part of the graph, the x the horizontal part of the graph.
The numbers above -0.0011 and 0.0008 are the gradient (i.e. the steepness) of the graph.
Anything positive shows the graph is increasing gradient (i.e. the line is increasing in y as x increases). Anything negative shows a decreasing gradient.
tldr; What these numbers show, is that in Hisec, the number of botters has decreased slightly, and increased in null.
I'm not sure what the graphs represent exactly (I think the y part is number of bots, x is time?), but that's my take on it.
Edit: Less in highsec, i.e. less being caught, as that was the context, more being caught in null. |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 17:33:00 -
[98] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:SaKoil wrote:I am bad with maths. Does the data show anything else that CCP catches even less bots now after the changes that make bots indistinguishable from bot-aspirant AFK miners? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%3Dmx%2BcWhat screegs posted was the equation for a linear graph. High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 The y is the vertical part of the graph, the x the horizontal part of the graph. The numbers above -0.0011 and 0.0008 are the gradient (i.e. the steepness) of the graph. Anything positive shows the graph is increasing gradient (i.e. the line is increasing in y as x increases). Anything negative shows a decreasing gradient. tldr; What these numbers show, is that in Hisec, the number of botters has decreased slightly, and increased in null. I'm not sure what the graphs represent exactly (I think the y part is number of bots, x is time?), but that's my take on it. Edit: Less in highsec, i.e. less being caught, as that was the context, more being caught in null.
Yeah, so CCP catches less bots in high-sec now as the average bot-aspirant AFK miner is indistinguishable from a bot?
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1803
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Posted - 2012.11.21 18:50:00 -
[99] - Quote
SaKoil wrote:Hazen Koraka wrote:SaKoil wrote:I am bad with maths. Does the data show anything else that CCP catches even less bots now after the changes that make bots indistinguishable from bot-aspirant AFK miners? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%3Dmx%2BcWhat screegs posted was the equation for a linear graph. High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 The y is the vertical part of the graph, the x the horizontal part of the graph. The numbers above -0.0011 and 0.0008 are the gradient (i.e. the steepness) of the graph. Anything positive shows the graph is increasing gradient (i.e. the line is increasing in y as x increases). Anything negative shows a decreasing gradient. tldr; What these numbers show, is that in Hisec, the number of botters has decreased slightly, and increased in null. I'm not sure what the graphs represent exactly (I think the y part is number of bots, x is time?), but that's my take on it. Edit: Less in highsec, i.e. less being caught, as that was the context, more being caught in null. Yeah, so CCP catches less bots in high-sec now as the average bot-aspirant AFK miner is indistinguishable from a bot? Humans don't provide inputs precisely on-schedule down to the millisecond once per hour like a mining bot would.
I think the issue is what's already been posted above: Mining requires so little effort now that bots are no longer required to do the job for hours on-end without going insane. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.11.21 19:22:00 -
[100] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:SaKoil wrote:
Yeah, so CCP catches less bots in high-sec now as the average bot-aspirant AFK miner is indistinguishable from a bot?
Humans don't provide inputs precisely on-schedule down to the millisecond once per hour like a mining bot would. I think the issue is what's already been posted above: Mining requires so little effort now that bots are no longer required to do the job for hours on-end without going insane. I think even the worst-written bot will include some kind of random wait between actions.
So the conclusion here is that mining bots and bot-aspirant miners have truly merged into one faceless mass of non-players. It is very sad to see that CCP caters to this non-playing non-person crowd, even if by accident. This is what you get when you listen to miners about their "needs".
At least the real bots rarely post on the forums for more buffs for their nigh-invulnerability.
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
389
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Posted - 2012.11.22 10:51:00 -
[101] - Quote
I'm finding this discussion very interesting indeed.
But from my perspective alone, it makes no sense to design things around the fact it could be botted. Because *everything* can be botted. That's something we can't change.
As to the lines from earlier, they're just macro trends. They give you an idea of the overall trend, but don't read too much into it beyond that. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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CCP Stillman
C C P C C P Alliance
389
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Posted - 2012.11.22 10:54:00 -
[102] - Quote
Hazen Koraka wrote:SaKoil wrote:I am bad with maths. Does the data show anything else that CCP catches even less bots now after the changes that make bots indistinguishable from bot-aspirant AFK miners? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y%3Dmx%2BcWhat screegs posted was the equation for a linear graph. High-sec: y1 = -0.0011x + 0.773 0.0: y2 = 0.0008x + 0.1651 The y is the vertical part of the graph, the x the horizontal part of the graph. The numbers above -0.0011 and 0.0008 are the gradient (i.e. the steepness) of the graph. Anything positive shows the graph is increasing gradient (i.e. the line is increasing in y as x increases). Anything negative shows a decreasing gradient. tldr; What these numbers show, is that in Hisec, the number of botters has decreased slightly, and increased in null. I'm not sure what the graphs represent exactly (I think the y part is number of bots, x is time?), but that's my take on it. Edit: Less in highsec, i.e. less being caught, as that was the context, more being caught in null. Besides that it was me and not Sreegs that posted it, I'll also point out that the constant(b) is a percentage value. Just a random dude in Team Security. |
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Thomas Gallant
Choke-Hold
13
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Posted - 2012.11.22 11:47:00 -
[103] - Quote
I think the idea that high sec mining ganking is a deterant to botting is partly based the idea that if you bot mining you are more likely to get ganked. While I don't believe this is true in as far as if a miner is targeted, it may be true with being able to survive an attempted gank. It'd be interesting to see the numbers of failed ganks from attentive miners verses botters.
The idea that ganking is a deterant to bot mining seems to be only as it's a deterant to all mining, as (to me) it doesn't seem that those to mine actively would be more willing to take a risk than those that bot.
As such, if ganking had a noticable effect on who mines, and the added tank and other improvements to mining barges and exhemers would increase all mining across the board, not merely botters.
TL;DR: I'd think that ganking would effect all mining, bot or not, more or less equally. |
Melvin Coulter
Cobalt Conspiracy Incorporated
40
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Posted - 2012.11.22 14:45:00 -
[104] - Quote
People find ways to brake rules.
I believe that is how half of the earths population has came about Mining without a perimit,till the day I die |
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.11.22 15:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:I'm finding this discussion very interesting indeed. But from my perspective alone, it makes no sense to design things around the fact it could be botted. Because *everything* can be botted. That's something we can't change. As to the lines from earlier, they're just macro trends. They give you an idea of the overall trend, but don't read too much into it beyond that.
One possible, if not probable, scenario why this trend is happening after recent changes is: In high sec, mining bots and bot-aspirant AFK miners both exhibit the exact same playing patterns. These invulnerable non-players will sit in the belt, afk and empty their bays when they are full. Repeat forever. It is almost impossible to distinguish between these groups as the most rudimentary bots probably avoid mining 23/7 not to be too obvious, and at the same time the most foaming-from-mouth fanatic AFKbear will mine for longer than the average bot. From the outside it looks like some horrible Singularity event where you cannot tell where the human ends and the bot begins.
In null, the mining bots will still have to defend themselves from possible threats and have shown that they are pretty good at warping to safety at the first sign of trouble. This uncanny 0 sec reaction time is easy to detect, especially in hivemind situations where several of the bots warp off at the same time, if it happens a few times in a row.
What you have created with the increased ore bays and lower risk of ganking is a perfect camouflage for all the mining bots to do their economical damage while encouraging a group of people to think that they are entitled to profits by AFKing all day.
Indeed it does not make sense to design things around the fact an activity could be botted. It makes sense that the activity is designed not to BE botting, or close enough that no-one can tell the difference. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5196
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Posted - 2012.11.22 15:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:I'm finding this discussion very interesting indeed. But from my perspective alone, it makes no sense to design things around the fact it could be botted. Because *everything* can be botted. That's something we can't change. As to the lines from earlier, they're just macro trends. They give you an idea of the overall trend, but don't read too much into it beyond that.
I'd counter that by saying that, as a rough rule of thumb, the more exciting and interesting a given gameplay mechanic is, the harder it is to bot it effectively and the less incentive. Making mechanics utterly predictable and repetitive (eg: mining, anomalies, missions) not only makes botting very easy, it provides a very strong incentive to do it in the first place. The more intelligence, intuition, decision making and pattern recognition required to accomplish a gameplay task, the better. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1817
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Posted - 2012.11.22 16:01:00 -
[107] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:CCP Stillman wrote:I'm finding this discussion very interesting indeed. But from my perspective alone, it makes no sense to design things around the fact it could be botted. Because *everything* can be botted. That's something we can't change. As to the lines from earlier, they're just macro trends. They give you an idea of the overall trend, but don't read too much into it beyond that. I'd counter that by saying that, as a rough rule of thumb, the more exciting and interesting a given gameplay mechanic is, the harder it is to bot it effectively and the less incentive. Making mechanics utterly predictable and repetitive (eg: mining, anomalies, missions) not only makes botting very easy, it provides a very strong incentive to do it in the first place. The more intelligence, intuition, decision making and pattern recognition required to accomplish a gameplay task, the better. High-sec miners have made it quite clear that "excitement" for them can't come in the form of ship risk.
Failing that, I'm unsure what could be interesting or exciting about mining if we're being honest.
Which brings us to AFK bot aspiration and the current economic dilemma:
High-sec ice mining is getting less valuable every day so that eventually not all of the ice miners who subsist on PLEX to remain subbed will be able to do so, as they will be competing for PLEX purchases with individuals who earn ISK from a faucet directly at a fixed rate.
I guess it might be considered exciting to watch your buying power slowly evaporate. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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