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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
619
   |
Posted - 2012.11.06 09:25:00 -
[271] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:Even back in my days in tier one Amarr people were complaining about how there lp was worthless and I was selling navy omens at around 120 mil isk a pop and navy slicers for around 35 mil isk a pop (supply and demand) so what exactly people are complaining about when they refuse to partake in changing their situation is beyond me.
I agree theres plenty of isk for Amarr, the problem is that a new comer to fw can choose some isk, or choose more isk.
'Greed is good' remember, well no its not good really, but it is real. It would defy logic to join a fw side you have no previous affiliation for, for less places to dock and get paid less to do the same actions.
its about balancing the flow of new players and corporations.
Im perfectly happy with the isk im able to make if i wanted or needed it, but the pvp and system ownership is always going to be one sided because the general population is not stupid.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 13:49:00 -
[272] - Quote
Abyssum Invocat wrote:Cearain wrote:
Both(pvp and plexing) have some simillarity to gambling, both pay one side 2.5xs what it pays the other side. Very few casino games are that slanted because, no one would play.
It's clearly dumb from an economic perspective to choose to fight for the losing side.
Some people argue that pvp is better when you are outshipped and outnumbered. That hasn't been my experience, but lets see how it goes.
But that's wrong, because every time you complete a plex you are making money regardless. It is not some pull of a slot machine where you stand to lose your money by completing a plex. .
I guess your assumption is there won't be any pvp that might make completing the plex uncertain.
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
Do you refuse to buy anything from the market because some guy bought the item for cheaper and you don't want him to make anything? If you want a single player game in which to practice hardcore isolationism then there are many out there you would enjoy.
You don't like making less money? That's a separate issue and the solution is simple, go take some systems and improve your situation yourself.
If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Kazim Scumling
Judge Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 14:29:00 -
[273] - Quote
Cearain wrote:If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell.
We're on eve of joining FW with our newly established corporation supporting and teaching some newbies we brought from other games within our community. We were making some research to make a better decision. Of course we won't make a decision only following forum comments, however if we find out these comments hit the reality, it would be pretty unwise to pick Amarr Faction. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 14:38:00 -
[274] - Quote
Stalking Mantis wrote:Even back in my days in tier one Amarr people were complaining about how there lp was worthless and I was selling navy omens at around 120 mil isk a pop and navy slicers for around 35 mil isk a pop (supply and demand) so what exactly people are complaining about when they refuse to partake in changing their situation is beyond me.
Do you mean you were spending 40k lp for a slicer and 180k lp for a nomen?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
366
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Posted - 2012.11.06 14:49:00 -
[275] - Quote
Kazim Scumling wrote:Cearain wrote:If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell. We're on eve of joining FW with our newly established corporation supporting and teaching some newbies we brought from other games within our community. We were making some research to make a better decision. Of course we won't make a decision only following forum comments, however if we find out these comments hit the reality, it would be pretty unwise to pick Amarr Faction.
Depends which way you look at it. Purely from an isk perspective its not as clear cut as people make out.
Yes, you earn less lp per effort in amarr, however amarr navy ship prices are rocketing due to lower supply.
In gallente, at tier 4 we earn a large amount of lp per effort but our historically high priced navy ships are hovering a little above their lowest price ever due to market saturation.
When it comes down to it, any faction in tier 2 or better is making very good isk relative to most other areas in eve. |
Abyssum Invocat
Justified Chaos
32
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 15:24:00 -
[276] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Abyssum Invocat wrote:Cearain wrote:
Both(pvp and plexing) have some simillarity to gambling, both pay one side 2.5xs what it pays the other side. Very few casino games are that slanted because, no one would play.
It's clearly dumb from an economic perspective to choose to fight for the losing side.
Some people argue that pvp is better when you are outshipped and outnumbered. That hasn't been my experience, but lets see how it goes.
But that's wrong, because every time you complete a plex you are making money regardless. It is not some pull of a slot machine where you stand to lose your money by completing a plex. . I guess your assumption is there won't be any pvp that might make completing the plex uncertain. Abyssum Invocat wrote:
Do you refuse to buy anything from the market because some guy bought the item for cheaper and you don't want him to make anything? If you want a single player game in which to practice hardcore isolationism then there are many out there you would enjoy.
You don't like making less money? That's a separate issue and the solution is simple, go take some systems and improve your situation yourself.
If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell.
The risk of PvP itself was not part of your original argument, you are moving the goal posts. If you take a look, you'll notice that I structured my wording so as to preclude such an attempt.
Eve is a laissez-faire game, of course the winners have an advantage. This advantage is necessary as motivation for the struggle and integral for the fabric of the game. The only thing we should be discussing is if the Amarr can make enough money to reasonably stay in ships, all other points are nebulous. This is not socialism, if you want something, you take it. This is the core of Eve, it always has been. Do you think if NCdot cried on the forums enough that CCP would give them techmoons because it is unfair how many the Goons have? Of course not. Eve is not fair, it never has been and never should be. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 15:33:00 -
[277] - Quote
Abyssum Invocat wrote:Cearain wrote:
If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell.
The risk of PvP itself was not part of your original argument, you are moving the goal posts. If you take a look, you'll notice that I structured my wording so as to preclude such an attempt.
Right you looked at plexing overly narrowly. As if everytime you choose to plex you are guaranteed to close it. But that is not the case. .[/quote]
Eve is a laissez-faire game, of course the winners have an advantage. This advantage is necessary as motivation for the struggle and integral for the fabric of the game. The only thing we should be discussing is if the Amarr can make enough money to reasonably stay in ships, all other points are nebulous. This is not socialism, if you want something, you take it. This is the core of Eve, it always has been. Do you think if NCdot cried on the forums enough that CCP would give them techmoons because it is unfair how many the Goons have? Of course not. Eve is not fair, it never has been and never should be.[/quote]
There is a difference between npc factions in fw and player corps and alliances in null sec. Anyone can just join the winning side in faction war.
The inferno tier system gave motivation to fight, had some balance, and could have been improved on. Instead they just took a hamfisted approach and gave the winner every economic advantage (becasue they appearantly felt the winner was being punished for winning) and deliberatley removed what little balance there was.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Abyssum Invocat
Justified Chaos
32
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 15:38:00 -
[278] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Abyssum Invocat wrote:Cearain wrote:
If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell.
The risk of PvP itself was not part of your original argument, you are moving the goal posts. If you take a look, you'll notice that I structured my wording so as to preclude such an attempt. Cearain wrote:
Right you looked at plexing overly narrowly. As if everytime you choose to plex you are guaranteed to close it. But that is not the case. .
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
Eve is a laissez-faire game, of course the winners have an advantage. This advantage is necessary as motivation for the struggle and integral for the fabric of the game. The only thing we should be discussing is if the Amarr can make enough money to reasonably stay in ships, all other points are nebulous. This is not socialism, if you want something, you take it. This is the core of Eve, it always has been. Do you think if NCdot cried on the forums enough that CCP would give them techmoons because it is unfair how many the Goons have? Of course not. Eve is not fair, it never has been and never should be.
There is a difference between npc factions in fw and player corps and alliances in null sec. Anyone can just join the winning side in faction war. The inferno tier system gave motivation to fight, had some balance, and could have been improved on. Instead they just took a hamfisted approach and gave the winner every economic advantage (becasue they appearantly felt the winner was being punished for winning) and deliberatley removed what little balance there was.
No, I specifically used the term "completing a plex."
The Inferno tier system was completely ****** in the ass by farmers that were unduly influencing warzone control, it was a good system that was implemented in a terrifically broken way.
Just sum it up briefly for us all in no uncertain terms, what do you want done to FW? |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 16:05:00 -
[279] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Kazim Scumling wrote:Cearain wrote:If i see someone on the market selling the same thing for less I will pay less. As people join fw they will see one side pays less and one pays more for the same thing. Are they going to choose less pay or more pay? I think I know the answer although you may pretend to be unsure. But time will tell. We're on eve of joining FW with our newly established corporation supporting and teaching some newbies we brought from other games within our community. We were making some research to make a better decision. Of course we won't make a decision only following forum comments, however if we find out these comments hit the reality, it would be pretty unwise to pick Amarr Faction. Depends which way you look at it. Purely from an isk perspective its not as clear cut as people make out. Yes, you earn less lp per effort in amarr, however amarr navy ship prices are rocketing due to lower supply. In gallente, at tier 4 we earn a large amount of lp per effort but our historically high priced navy ships are hovering a little above their lowest price ever due to market saturation. When it comes down to it, any faction in tier 2 or better is making very good isk relative to most other areas in eve.
Kazim do your research.
The latest faction war system is deliberately set up to give all the economic benefits to the winner. Hans who pushed it through to ccp said as much.
Here is some analysis earlier in the thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2138310#post2138310
In sum the militias that are at tier 4 are making 2.5xs the lp of the ones at tier 2. The vast majority of the worthwhile items in the lp store are shared by both militias. The unique fw items like amarr plates are pretty much worthless. (so don't be mislead if you see contracts with them going for lots of isk - they aren't even worth trying to sell as you will just get expired contract after expired contract)
Since we know the losing faction will effectively make less than half off the shared items the losing factions are trying to spend all of their lp on the only unique items that sell - ships.
Jita sell prices right now:
Tier 2 factions amarr and caldari frigates each cost 10klp:
slicers 16.5
hookbill 11 mill
Tier four factions minmatar and gallente frigates 10klp:
comets 17 mill
firetails 13 mill
As you can see the factions tier 2 ships are going for far less than 2.5 xs as much as the faction ships that have tier 4. Plus the differential is artificially high right now because minmatar had several tier 5 cashouts right before the patch were they could buy their ships for 1/4 the lp! As those get sold off you will see even closer parity between the amarr and minmatar.
Bottom line is the market does not even come close to covering the large advantage you get for choosing to fly for the winning side.
If you prefer more money over less money your choice is clear.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 17:17:00 -
[280] - Quote
Abyssum Invocat wrote:
The Inferno tier system was completely ****** in the ass by farmers that were unduly influencing warzone control, it was a good system that was implemented in a terrifically broken way.
Just sum it up briefly for us all in no uncertain terms, what do you want done to FW?
Believe it or not we both agree. It was mainly the farmers and the mechanics that encouraged people farming plexes in gunless frigates that made inferno so bad and kept the amarr from being able to keep economic parity.
I would like the the original inferno tier system but toned down. Instead of tier 5 being 75% discount maybe make it a 60% discount. But keep it so there is no lp for d-plexing and keep it where there is no reason to join a side that just did a tier 5 cashout because you will have just missed the boat.
The cashouts gave goals instead of this forever grind we have now. Perhaps the time between cashouts should be longer or shorter. I really don't care, but that could easilly be accomplished by changing the vp per plex. (yes i said vp not lp. vp is how much a system is contested per plex)
As for the other changes I would still recomend that they make plexing a pvp game as per my signature. But if they must have npcs I like what hans has proposed and what ccp is doing. Must kill them all etc. Another key is to start notifying us when plexes are attacked and a form of timer rollback. But these notifications and timer rollbacks will not be good if the war is lopsided. And unfortunately because they chose a lopsided financial system that sort of ruins the whole thing.
To the extent people say that there is no advantage to winning under the old system if everyone can hit tier five, I would say that if your side currently has over 50% of the systems you get full lp for pvp and a 50% bonus (over pre inferno rates) to the lp you get for missions. If your side has under 50% of the systems then you get half the lp for pvp and only preinferno pay for missions.
Plus the side that hold the majority of systems over a 12 month period would get some other perk. Perhaps an economic one like an additional item in the lp store, or just improve a unique item (make amarr plates or eg, minmatar shield worth buying) Or it could be a non-economic one like a statue in the fw system that was held by the militia long enough. The statue could be of the person who got the most kills or the most vp or the ceo or the corp with the most kills or vp or it could be a statue of all 4 or whatever. Other sorts of swag for winning could be an increase in your factions corporations in the war zone. So if minmatar win some of the carthum stations might become boundless stations. There are plenty of options.
The idea is that there would be very short term goals like capture this plex. Medium term goals like achieve a tier 5 cashout, and long term goals like memoralize our achievments permantently in the game through continued dominance. Because these goals all have different timelines people would always have more to fight for. The game would be economically balanced as long as everyside could achieve tier 5 cashouts.
If they did this and one side still couldn't hit a tier 5 cashout then they could do some tweaks like reduce the vp for d-plexing. Or they could say you can't start plexing a system for a set time after it flips, or if you do, you don't get as much vp. Which option would depend on the specific reason why a certain faction was unable to achieve any tier 5 cashouts.
FW doesn't need to be economically lopsided to make it meaningful.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Capitol One
Wolfsbrigade
Lost Obsession
113
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Posted - 2012.11.06 18:06:00 -
[281] - Quote
No offense Cearain but if you managed to summarize your posts better, wrote more with less words, you'd see a lot more feedback.
Your wall of texts after wall of texts are sometimes a bit daunting. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.06 19:28:00 -
[282] - Quote
Capitol One wrote:No offense Cearain but if you managed to summarize your posts better, wrote more with less words, you'd see a lot more feedback.
Your wall of texts after wall of texts are sometimes a bit daunting.
No offense taken.
No doubt reading my posts is a disagreeable task, because the work is dry, obscure, opposed to all ordinary notions, and moreover long-winded.
If I had more time, my posts would be shorter.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
85
|
Posted - 2012.11.07 00:35:00 -
[283] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:well one, they've never done it but everytime i warped away they thought "**** yea we got to troll him" like I gave a **** lol. Also a tengu is a ship like any other and can be killed by 5-7 ships flown by angry little kids like any other. It's the fact you guys thought it was a great achievement to kill a tengu once that I find so hilarious. You must be doing FW wrong if you don't have 5+bil at all times, but then again you sat around defensive plexing and hiding from goodfights.
you loved trying to stick to smaller plexes and used a legion whenever you had one, it's not my fault you can't buy a link char or train one, scrubs.
"well one, they've never done it but everytime i warped away they thought "**** yea we got to troll him" like I gave a **** lol."
never done what? kill your tengu? refer above
"Also a tengu is a ship like any other and can be killed by 5-7 ships flown by angry little kids like any other."
Yes very true however, your tengu with the loki links and the snakes and 100mn ab, cannot be killed in 1v1 or even a 2v1(unless there is something there with 4 webs or a few 90% ones/or the unlikely scenario of another tengu with loki links, snakes, etc etc etc).
"It's the fact you guys thought it was a great achievement to kill a tengu once that I find so hilarious."
it is a great achievement to kill the ship of a coward. example someone who flys a ship specifically designed to run away as soon as your weakness has been explioted
"You must be doing FW wrong if you don't have 5+bil at all times"
why? Cause we need 5bil or what we cant afford our wee omen navy issue's? or is it our pimped coercers? maybe you need 5 bil for replacing a regular battlecruiser like a harbinger?
"but then again you sat around defensive plexing and hiding from goodfights."
Good fights as in the ones where you fly around in a gang of tengus and drakes with loki links snakes and you just kite ppl god forbid we bring a rapier youll just warp out before we even enter the major plex.
No we stuck in the medium plexs and the minor plexs fighting good pvpers in vli who new the true value of a GF.
"You loved trying to stick to smaller plexes and used a legion whenever you had one, it's not my fault you can't buy a link char or train one, scrubs."
You must be ill. "use a legion whenever you had one" "not my fault you cant buy a link char or train one"
Which is it boy? We have a link machine or we dont? |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
75
|
Posted - 2012.11.21 21:59:00 -
[284] - Quote
marketjacker wrote:well one, they've never done it but everytime i warped away they thought "**** yea we got to troll him" like I gave a **** lol. Also a tengu is a ship like any other and can be killed by 5-7 ships flown by angry little kids like any other. It's the fact you guys thought it was a great achievement to kill a tengu once that I find so hilarious. You must be doing FW wrong if you don't have 5+bil at all times, but then again you sat around defensive plexing and hiding from goodfights.
you loved trying to stick to smaller plexes and used a legion whenever you had one, it's not my fault you can't buy a link char or train one, scrubs.
I had 1 Sacrilege and 1 Blackbird, you got stuck on gate, I permajammed you because you are to stupid to use Talons. Then you ejected.
Channel ID: (('solarsystemid2', 30003787),)
Channel Name: Local
Listener: Cynthia Nezmor
Session started: 2012.09.06 07:32:31
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:34:39 ] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Ostingele
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:35:01 ] Cynthia Nezmor > animal man \o/
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:38:40 ] marketjacker > lol stuck on gate
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:39:22 ] marketjacker > well
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:39:25 ] marketjacker > this one is cheap
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:40:53 ] marketjacker > 20
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:41:10 ] Cynthia Nezmor > thank you
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:41:20 ] marketjacker > lol
n++[ 2012.09.06 07:41:40 ] marketjacker > sad thing is you can't even fly it right because you are too bad at it |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
631
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Posted - 2012.11.22 17:49:00 -
[285] - Quote
Taking a T3 because you forced somebody to eject didn't really happen because there's no killmail.
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