Faction Warfare - Same As It Ever Was

Amarr will be fine. You now have 8 systems as of today. You guys will be busting quite a few more over the next few days. It won't take much for you guys to get to T2 WZ control.

I think it's doable for all militias to acquire T3 WZ control over the next month or so. T4 or T5? Most likely not. But that was good while it lasted. Welcome to the new normal.

Time will tell.

But I've decided that I don't particularly enjoy having a bunch of numbers and equations telling me I should start caring about X in faction warfare, or that I should now be doing Y, because the numbers are advantageous at the moment.

I do it because I want to. I do it because it's better than waiting on someone else to create or define the content for me. Because every night on TS3 comms, there are a large majority of people who simply log on and wait for a minority to create the content for them.

from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/10/faction-warfare-same-as-it-ever-was.html

First of all, I welcome the changes to faction warfare that decrease the value of loyalty points. I also welcome the changes to faction warfare that make it more difficult to farm loyalty points. I welcome the changes that make it easier to attack and blow up loyalty point farmers.

But I'm not going to talk about that. We know about those changes. And there are no people that I know of that don't feel those are good changes to the system.

tl;dr See last paragraph.

What I want to discuss is the number massaging that's happening. And will likely continue to happen, because CCP keeps telling us, these numbers can be adjusted. The numbers that define loyalty point payouts for the winners and losers, for offensives and defensives, the winners and losers. These are the numbers that have come to define faction warfare.

Adjusted to what end though? Basically, to dictate how faction warfare is played. Which boils down to being a **** you to emergent gameplay. CCP doesn't want us to decide our own play, CCP wants their numbers to define how we play, and they'll keep shifting the numbers about until we do start playing according to the CCP/CSM vision. Except those numbers never seem to have the outcome they desire.

I've played on both sides of the fence. I've been on the winners side with the Minmatar. I am currently on the losers side with the Amarr. With the Minmatar, I had a mindset that warzone control was important. I engaged in offensively plexing systems, defending systems, making sure that our advantage was held. It was easy to motivate that mindset, because the reward for doing so was exceptionally high. When Inferno was released, it was easy for the Minmatar to fight for what they held because there was no hill to climb. They started with total dominance, they've maintained total dominance since (minus a short period, when Nulli Secunda took a vacation from nullsec, but the army of farming alts that the Minmatar had at their disposal was able to quickly reverse that.)

The new system of numbers, being released with Retribution, I've come to believe that these numbers will not encourage the losing side to do anything but deny their enemies loyalty points. It will not eliminate their disinterest in warzone mechanics. The system is once again skewed toward the winners, the hill to climb for a loser still too steep. The malaise towards warzone control is the likely to remain the norm among the losing side, rather than an eagerness to increase warzone control.

Same as it ever was. The numbers encourage the winning side to care. The losing side sinks into a give no fucks attitude towards the system.

If the Minmatar bring an Amarr system to vulnerable, their ability to acquire loyalty points [LP] ceases in that system. Why would the Amarr defensive plex for some meager amount of LP, giving the Minmatar the opportunity to offensive plex for an obscene amount of LP? If the Minmatar decide to flip the system, there is no loyalty point gain in defensive plexing, since they own the system outright. So the Amarr would be better off not offensive plexing for some meager amount of LP, then allowing the Minmatar to defensive plex for some half-decent amount of LP.

So the status quo that is likely to develop over time is that the losing side will deny loyalty points to the winning side. The winning side will likely move into missioning for their mad income if this denial strategy by the losing side occurs (missioning is far more lucrative than plexing systems, anyhow.) The PvP that the new numbers were meant to encourage, actually decreases.

I think I'm moving towards a system that penalizes and rewards the losing and winning sides as little as possible. A system that lets the players define how they play. An exceptionally simple system with no numbers to massage. Static loyalty point rewards for plexing, a number that is not affected by offensive or defensive plexing, a number that is not affected by warzone control. A flat rate for running a plex to completion. This will allow the players to motivate themselves on why they fight, why they take over systems, why they give them up. Emergent gameplay. This reverts back to faction warfare pre-Inferno, but allows its players to earn a reasonable income while taking part in this area of the game.

Warzone control can still come into play, but only in terms of offering small rewards to the winning side. Perhaps additional industry slots, or slightly decreased taxes and brokerage fees on systems controlled. Some of this is already part of the system, but some further small advantages can be given. Though no rewards that are back-breaking to the losing side.

Let the players supply their own motivations for fighting, for plexing, for trying to win the warzone. Using numbers to artificially create these motivations are never going to work as expected. Revert to a static system of loyalty point rewards.

Having incentives to win: "CCP is boosting the winning side"
Having no incentives to win: "Why would we even fight / hold systems if it's meaningless?"

Both are fair points. In the end, both systems provide content, but the activity will probably be higher in a system that has rewards, even though some of the activity might be found disruptive to others. As long as the reward stream is not so large that is starts becoming disruptive to the entire game, I don't see a problem with providing incentives.

My biggest complaint is that it is hard to have the dynamic content when there is no real politics within the factions itself, no real reason to be the 'political leader' within each faction. Only when incomes don't just get distributed between a winning side vs loosing side, but also within the winning and loosing sides as well will you get the dynamics you see in 0.0.

Fweddit is currently investigating new ways to get the sorts of gameplay we want. And the sorts of gameplay we want are interesting fights.

A few days ago, we had one of the best fights we've ever had in the last few months (for some, the last year), and it had nothing at all to do with faction warfare.

The majority of us don't give a poop about warzone control....

So Fweddit is looking at creating other opportunities for fights, that are likely going to be more piratey in nature...

Same as it ever was. The numbers encourage the winning side to care. The losing side sinks into a give no fucks attitude towards the system.[/b]

From your employment history, seems you only joined FW when it became popular for farming.

So please, tell us more about how great FW was between Empyrean Age in 2008 to Inferno in 2012. You know, when there was absolutely no reward to begin with.

And You May Find Yourself Living In A Shotgun Shack
And You May Find Yourself In Another Part Of The World
And You May Find Yourself Behind The Wheel Of A Large Automobile
And You May Find Yourself In A Beautiful House, With A Beautiful
Wife
And You May Ask Yourself-Well...How Did I Get Here?

Letting The Days Go By/Let The Water Hold Me Down
Letting The Days Go By/Water Flowing Underground
Into The Blue Again/After The Money's Gone
Once In A Lifetime/Water Flowing Underground.

...

From your employment history, seems you only joined FW when it became popular for farming.

So please, tell us more about how great FW was between Empyrean Age in 2008 to Inferno in 2012. You know, when there was absolutely no reward to begin with.

If I'm mistaken, I apologize and retract the above. But being lectured about the state of FW from someone who only joined for the farming, and didn't put up with the atrocious mechanics that existed for four years beforehand? Please.

Having isk be a reward for doing well is stupid when their is absolutely 0 regulation against switching sides.

Guys, stop posting nonsense and start playing the game. If you are up for PVP fun then just go out and hunt some war targets... if you can't find any then go into one of their systems which is inhabitated by them and start running a plex... sooner or later they will come out to hunt you. I did both of things yesterday and had much fun. War targets which didn't left faction warefare are those who are willing to come out and play. This is good.

If you are just playing for the ISK/h ratio, then go out and get a real life job.

PvP, it is mostly routine, lock tackle pop.

Amarr will be fine. You now have 8 systems as of today. You guys will be busting quite a few more over the next few days. It won't take much for you guys to get to T2 WZ control.

I'm so tired of Amarr and Caldari whining about their inevitable doom. Caldari have been busting like mad. They took about 10 yesterday. Several more were taken today in the EU TZ. And then the US TZ Squids like Happy Endings will be undocking their fleet of 7 dreads from Rakapas in a couple more hours. We'll see where they hit tonight. Even rumors have started floating about nullsec gangs waiting to get a drop on all these shiny dreads since it's becoming much more defined as to where and or which pipes the IHUB bashing will take place :)

I think it's doable for all militias to acquire T3 WZ control over the next month or so. T4 or T5? Most likely not. But that was good while it lasted. Welcome to the new normal.

CCP - damned if they do; damned if they don't.

Shaalira D'arc > If you want to put a stop to Happy Endings' plexing efforts in Vaaralen for the night, cloak up on the outside of their plex after they're done. Just stop it from respawning.

Ironic FW players make more now then they ever have, and yet have moved from BS fleets down to Thrashers and frigs. Almost makes you cry.[/i]

I wonder if Froggies will go to forums to shout for a ban to Shaalira now. After all, they screamed a ban for me for revealing what mechanics they initially used to stop plexes from despawning (= timer bug).

Of course they wont. Neither will CCP do anything since they are busy gobbling down froggie militias sausage.



Most players in eve will proceed like this:

1) Scrounge any amount of isk desperately and make sure they wont lose their barely afforded boat
2) Find a good isk source, make isk like a bandit
3) Have more isk than you know what to do with.
4) Start worrying about your KB isk efficiency. Alternatively hate your opponents too much that any and all ship losses, even from victorious fleet fight is seem as unacceptable (i'm guilty on this one).

Correct me if I am wrong.

Unlike, what, PvE?

Thing is,

Why to engage in PVP against enemy who is willing to fight with their pvp ships, they are already ready to lose those so no matter if you win and kill all they practically get just what they wanted.

I prefer killing enemy on time they are not willing to lose their ships, example when they are making isk for their PVP ships.

Most people want to play EVE as some arcade game , have some fights and see some explosions, other play it as social game where they make friends and build stuff and mine etc..., then there is players who want to play it as strategy game by destroying their enemies totally.

There is lot of different ways to play eve and different goals, none of those are right or wrong, you will just setup goal for yourself and if you achieve it you have won your EVE.

Well imo killing ratters is boring, starting fights you know you'll win. If that is what you like go to null, in facrtion warfare you are not going to have fun since youll be fighting the same people over and over. Look at the gangwarfare by matari exodus., they would get bored real fast. People will know their way of fighting after several engagements and it will simply lead to both sides bringing more tank than gank. Hating your enemies isn't realy helpfull either, better to just have fun and fight. Occadionally ship up and down to allow fights. You need to be lenient and willing to take losses, so you bring more gank, less tank and logi. Faction warfare is for people who like xplodie thing n ships, even if its your own.
So less killing frigs with tengus and ganking on the undock ( you people know who you are) and more BC brawl and going balls to the walls

Faction warfare is for people who like xplodie thing n ships, even if its your own.

Want some cheese with your whine? I actually get along with quite a few of my enemies, I or example consider Muad'Dib, Pinky, or the aussie amarr to be pretty cool dudes. Of course there is drama, there will always be people like you, but if you don't want a fight club the why be in faction warfare?

FWIW, plexes should despawn after they have been completed - whether or not there is anybody still inside them. Hans should get CCP to put this on their to-do list.

None of the features in the list that you linked have ANYTHING to do with pvp - only with cornering the market on goods so your side can make more isk from them.

Anyways, the pew is there for all who want it. It's up to you to go get it.

The current state of the faction warfare macro system is out of whack with what the system should be encouraging: more PvP

attempts to groom players into a certain playstyle if they want to earn any living whatsoever within faction warfare. Basically, CCP tells the faction warfare player, if you want to earn a living, then you should care about PvE: orbiting buttons and running missions. PvP is secondary.

Hans seemed to agree with this. "I agree with you completely," he said, every time someone brought up the issue of PvP-over-PvE... The problem, if he's agreeing with everything, you don't really get a sense of what he's actually thinking. Hell, Soundwave might tell him "I want to see more PvE in lowsec" and Hans' response might very well be "I agree with you completely."

While I agree that FW should be a PVP activity, I don't see how LP for PVP is going to be a good idea. Goonswarm already poked a HUGE hole in that idea, if we all remember.

Do you realize that these statements are not, in fact, in any way contradictory? That Hans can simultaneously want to improve the PvP incentives for FW and want to draw more PvE and industry into lowsec?

from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2012/10/faction-warfare-same-as-it-ever-was.html

First of all, I welcome the changes to faction warfare that 1) decrease the value of loyalty points. 2) I also welcome the changes to faction warfare that make it more difficult to farm loyalty points. 3)I welcome the changes that make it easier to attack and blow up loyalty point farmers.

remove FW missions, then FW is fixed !

At the very least de-couple them from the Tier multipliers. Missions do nothing for warzone control and therefore shouldn't receive the warzone control multiplier. Same with kills.

Same with kills.

Success or failure of Faction Warfare iterations is impossible to measure without criteria. After reading your most recent post here, Poetic, what would you say your criteria is for Faction Warfare being "not broken" or even "successful" come springtime? (After we've had a couple months to see how the December changes will affect the warzone).

Success or failure of Faction Warfare iterations is impossible to measure without criteria. After reading your most recent post here, Poetic, what would you say your criteria is for Faction Warfare being "not broken" or even "successful" come springtime? (After we've had a couple months to see how the December changes will affect the warzone).

Anyone else is free to chime in with what they deem criteria for a successful outcome to all of this as well. Everyone's perception and interests are a bit different. Note that criteria for success does not include a specific mechanic being included or not included, success is that the changes (whichever get implemented) have a positive outcome.

Criteria could include: "PvP has gone up by a measurable percentage" or "FW is no longer the premier farmed income sources across the entire game" or "Warzones have seen observable movement across the spectrum" or "Even the underdog can earn enough isk for pew via the activiities available to him in FW"

Remember - specific payout percentages, plex mechanics, etc don't really constitute "criteria for success" as we all disagree on the details to a degree, and without data yet we don't know which mechanics (mine, yours, or CCP's) will cause FW to be a success. Anything is possible at this point. All we can do is set overarching goals for how this is supposed to look and feel when we're done with it, and see how the state of the feature measures up in the end.

Hans- I don't think Poetic has any specific benchmarks.

This is something I learned from the talk with Fweddit last friday, that often times we're zeroing in on pitched battles over this mechanic or that mechanic, or our way vs CCP's way, even while admitting we don't all know how this will turn out. That's why I said its easier to discuss these things if we establish some common ground when it comes to a picture of what things will look like if the changes are successful. We aren't all going to get our way in terms of specific mechanics, but its always possible something we didn't like initially turns out to have a positive effect (or vice versa).

Missions are the only source of rewards if one side completely wins.

....

You know my views on this I have been posting them for years.

I'm sure he does, whether he's willing to share them or not. He's already stated that things "seem broken", so its a fair question to ask what he expects to see come February for things to to not seem broken. Poe's now a FW participant and member of our community, I can't very well represent his interests if he doesn't make it clear what those interests are.

Sure, but I appreciate you sharing them again. I think we can all agree these are good goals to strive for - and measurable too. For example, "making it so all the players don't join the winning side" can easily be assessed by observing whether or not new players are willing to join the losing side despite the increased rewards for belonging to the miltia with a greater degree of warzone control.

Hans there were people like me and others telling you this all along. You chose to ignore us.

Easy enough - PvP has increased, fights are easy to find, FW isn't a comical income source (meaning hundreds of millions of isk per hour with zero effort and zero isk), warzone control sees noticeable movement, and everyone can afford basic PvP ships from the various income activities available.

Would you agree these are reasonable criteria for evaluating FW's success? Anything you'd add / subtract?

Cearain, there are several fixes slated for Retribution that are direct suggestions from yourself that I've championed to CCP and are now being coded up, that directly affect plexing as a PvP activity. You and I have agreed on these changes for quite some time. To say that I've been ignoring you is dishonest, and unnecessary. Lets be realistic if we're going to continue discussing matters and not be so quick to reheat old rhetoric that is easily disproven. We don't see eye to eye on everything - but we have been partners in promoting the need for plexing visibility, timer rollbacks, and drastically reduced NPC's, and the total package of fixes to be released in December will reflect your hard work as well as my own.

Frankly, I've never understood the point of FW. At best it's a contrived excuse for combat and a way to get high sec combat without crappy wardec mechanics. Other than that, it only appears to offer comically large rewards (still) for making oneself available as a potential target. FW has become an overly complicated pew pew flagging device. I'd argue that it would be better for everyone involved in FW to be given a "I like to fight" button they can press and make themselves a totally legal target in high sec and low sec. I guess I'd be curious to know why CCP should be diverting so many resources to something like this, when they could be making the heart and soul of the game, sov mechanics, better.

Hans does propose that kills receive all LP at the T5 multiplier, no matter what level of warzone control your faction is at. Which would be a good change.

Fair enough.

You haven't completely ignored me on this but it has taken an extremely low priority. CCP is shuffling fw constatnly and none of these changes have been implemented.

Susan's notion that minmatar were being punished for winning too much so they need lp for defensive plexing has been addressed pronto.

Meanwhile the issues to make this more of a pvp game have taken a back seat and will be implemented in a weak form if ever. Just knowing what the timer is in local is not enough. The timer rollbacks should be based only when an enemy lands on grid not just anytime you leave.

Easy enough - PvP has increased, fights are easy to find, FW isn't a comical income source (meaning hundreds of millions of isk per hour with zero effort and zero isk), warzone control sees noticeable movement, and everyone can afford basic PvP ships from the various income activities available.

Would you agree these are reasonable criteria for evaluating FW's success? Anything you'd add / subtract?

We don't see eye to eye on everything - but we have been partners in promoting the need for plexing visibility, timer rollbacks, and drastically reduced NPC's, and the total package of fixes to be released in December will reflect your hard work as well as my own.

Because allot of people don't go for the tween girl aggression dressed up as null sec politics. They like to fly around and fight in their ships. There should be mechanics that promote that.

How does this not lead to abuse at Tier 5?

I don't understand how this would lead to abuse. I'm suggesting that CCP decide what their upper limit is on a % value payout in the form of LP (lets assume for now that this is what you get paid at Tier 5) and institute that LP payout for all PvP kills, all the time, regardless of whether you are winning or losing. Essentially exempt PvP payouts from scaling, and pretend that everyone's at Tier 5 for purposes of PvP payouts.

If target availabilty is the primary reason to join the losing militia, I see no reason to make pilots choose between that and better pay for the same thing. I want to encourage people to sign up for PvP.

See Goons "exploit"

And that T5 payout is not even at the ceiling. It could go a tad higher without danger of any "goon 'spoits."

You seem to think I have something to do with CCP's release schedule.

If I had my way we never would have seen payouts in the first place until the NPC overhaul and the other plex mechanics were addressed, but that ship sailed before I ever took office. The recent patch has everything to do with CCP finally waking up to the mess they created by throwing money at FW first instead of fixing the underlying issues, and releasing the code they had completed by this point. "Massaging the numbers" is exactly what it says - and obviously takes less time than altering core content structure and building custom new NPC AI. The realities of the production process here were what contributed to the order in which the Retribution changes rolled out, I've been quite clear about what I want to see in what order, and been outspoken about the fact that CCP was doing the right things in the wrong order from the beginning.

But by all means, continue to blame Susan for it all, everyone is entitled to their beliefs. .

Anyways about this timer rollback - what do you mean exactly? Maybe I've missed something in our previous discussions, I'm hoping you can elaborate on "enemy lands on grid not just anytime you leave". If two players are both on the timer, why would it not just stop moving completely until one has defeated the other? There's still a month left, if there's a better way to tweak this I'm all ears.

Do you have a source for this? or math to demonstrate?

The timer should only roll back if an enemy is on grid with you or on grid with the accel gate.

I think Han's point is that whatever the top percent is everyone should get that for pvp kills.

Deciding what the top percent is can be tricky. But even after the goons trick, ccp did not completely do away with lp for kills.

Ridiculous. The reason for the rollback is to discourage rabbits who bounce from plex to plex. There is a consequence for them leaving the plex. I'm sorry that you won a fight (your stated reason for beng in FW), but weren't able to get the LP.

Bottom Line: You got the fight. You should be happy. Right?

Once you decide on what that non-exploitable percentage is, then its not really a Tier 5 payout is it? It's a constant payout not related to the Tier system.

Did you even read the scenarios?
You impress me less and less with every post XG.

Shouldn't matter. Rabbit warps out at first sign of trouble in system and timer doesn't run down? Nah.

To be brutally honest, while i have doubts about the exact rewards for d-plexing, specially at higher tiers. I am without a single doubt that if the dice fell while caldari had most system, the forum would be full of caldari telling gallente to HTFU.

Little tweaks may be needed but i think this is a large improvement overall.

Timers should start counting back only when plex is empty..

The current mechanics are very good, though defensive plexing at tier 4 is still a good income for afk stabbed atrons down to 30% contested..

To be brutally honest, while i have doubts about the exact rewards for d-plexing, specially at higher tiers. I am without a single doubt that if the dice fell while caldari had most system, the forum would be full of caldari telling gallente to HTFU.

Ninjaedit: Snake, you might want to check your signature.

Nobody would be complaining if CCP had not decided to make systems not vulnerable with few miserable plexes. Both sides would have still benefitted and key systems could have been held since there was reward for defending them. Instead CCP showed their true colors by fast forwarding after gallente cash-in.

This gave gallente the "last cash in", then CCP handed them more money by opening all their currently held but vulnerable systems for defensive lp farming, then they put forward "System can only be this deep into vulnerable" mechanics which made it impossible for Caldari to ever stage a comeback because lp from defensive plexes is simply too lucrative and all vulnerable systems were no longer so after couple of hours.

Yet many people tell Caldari to take off the tinfoil hats despite their continued favour directed at their pet goat militias. How about you lot go f.ck yourself.

Ninjaedit: Snake, you might want to check your signature.

Maybe reduce LP payout for defensive plexing or perhaps decouple it from Tier multiplier. Ridiculous LP for afk atrons. Not that my alts are complaining....

Seriously this whole plexing mechanic is so screwed up (for people who use plexes for pvp) now I am never going to bother doing another plex for amarr.

There is no economic balance in the current mechanics. If they happened to do this change when caldari were ahead gallente would be burried and you would start to bleed players.

In fact, the changes CCP installed just might have made FW worse than it was, which itself is fairly mind boggling achievement. Previously farming alts didnt stop you taking systems. Now they do that and it's even worse for health of low-sec than old system.

Ah now I see why you want pvpers to have to stay in their plexes. You don't want them to be able to leave their plex and hunt your afk altrons.

Bad Messenger summed it pretty well: If you want to roleplay, you go for Amarr/Caldari. If you want Isk (like 99%) of people, you go for Matar/gallente.

Militias suck for pvp anyway. The moment you manage to gather yourself a posse, any and all reasons to fight disappear anyway, like they have already done. Why take systems and do massive when you can just roll alts to opposing militia and profit from tier which is already high-enough?

In fact, the changes CCP installed just might have made FW worse than it was, which itself is fairly mind boggling achievement. Previously farming alts didnt stop you taking systems. Now they do that and it's even worse for health of low-sec than old system.

Actually, Gallente got omgwtfpwn'd in May by plexing alts, but we survived and our militia is stronger now than before the patch.

"If your only motivation is isk, then that's what you'll get." - Princess Leia

Now we just flat out get paid less for the same work. Fight for amarr where you get half the pay!

Caldari still has a nominal numbers advantage. I have no clue whether that works out to any more real boots on the ground. If caldari manages to get the lead then the tide may swing for them and we can have everyone join minmatar and Caldari and fight it out.

I want them to be able to grief my plexing alts. It's ridiculous that an afk atron can 1) affect occupancy warfare so much, and 2) get paid ridiculous amounts of LP to do it.

.

Then agree that you shouldn't get paid for defensive plexing. Problem solved.

1. That half pay is still enough to keep you fighting and in the game.

2. Caldari plexing alts have vanished and I think many have reappeared as Gallente and Minmatar alts since we're both at Tier 4 now.

Right like I said rational people choose more money instead of less money. Are you surprised?

Rational people choose what they want to worship. The alts choose isk. Your militia is stronger if your core members choose to value other things over isk.


1. YOU can still get pvp, so the argument w.r.t not being able to pvp is a red herring.
2. YOU can still make a living doing FW, so the argument w.r.t isk making ability is a red herring,

You should concentrate your argument to the following and get rid of the two red herrings above: Alts affect occupancy warfare too much. First it was easy offensive plexing and now it is through super easy defensive plexing. With Tier 4, it will also be through easy offensive plexing.

You didn't answer my question. Are you surprised people are choosing more money instead of less money?

Neither of the above points are red herrings. Just because people can choose to be economically foolish doesn't mean the economically foolish team will have a shot at winning.

Getting rid of farmers is fine but it is beside the point. Even if no one ever farmed at all, the side that pays 2xs as much for the same task will get more pilots and isk to spend on ships and fittings.

I answered it perfectly. I am not surprised you and everybody's plexing alts choose isk over their militia. I am also not surprised that many players like myself, Julius Foederatus, Val Erian, (most likely even Damar, flyinghotpocket, Super Chair) and the guys in Electus Matari and Murietor Tribe do not.

Assuming alts are not a part of the equation - winning FW is not about isk. Dessies, Cruisers, BCs, etc.. are easily affordable at Tier 1 payouts. Numbers, coordination, good FCs, morale matter much, much more.
Your character can only fly one ship at a time.

But the question is not where a few diehards are going to go. The question is what are most people doing.

Few dedicated diehards are not going to affect things when there are up to 60 moneymakers opposing for each of them. Mathematics are a b.tch so I assume most people will roll up alts for opposing militia missioning and move their stuff to non-lockable lowsec.

Nobody will fight in FW but then again, nobody has actually fought over anything in FW since Inferno anyway. This of course wont hinder Gallente and Minmatar militias in the least since it's going to be isk making paradise until end of Eve.

I quess congratulations are in order for CCP and Hans for finally stacking the deck big enough to be too much for Amarr/Caldari to handle and achieving their dream of killing FW.

That is clearly the conclusion all rational amarr should have reached. But I wasn't sure about the caldari front.

Dont get me wrong (this is just my personal opinion), I do like pvp but right now I am looking for not-too-distant future where I need to keep accounts running all my free time in a single system just for the priviledge of being able to dock and i've had enough of CCP's continued screw ups in regards to FW.

While you sit here crying, Happy Endings are out there working their asses off trying to capture systems. Rather than sitting in some back water system that no one cares about trying to defend it single handed and complaining about how hard it can be to do so on this thread lol.

1. That half pay is still enough to keep you fighting and in the game.

If you had managed to do that on the upcoming patch day and there was no emergency patch to fix the economy and plex prices them im sure you would be gloating here as you were in the past and explaining to us that we just need to work harder.

Barely. In really cheap ships and fits. And then only if you put a fair bit of time into solo PvE. So, "Yay FW for all the awesome PvE opportunities!"

Give me a break. You and all your friends and allies are fail if you can't support yourself at FW Tier 1 payouts. HTFU and go pirate if you think you have it so bad. Somehow those guys are able to make a living.

BS can't make a living. If you do 2 minor plex, which you can do in any PVP frig or dessie, every day for a month that's 300k LP at t1. That's enough for 2 Navy Geddons netting you 800m+. You can literally do 2 minors while looking for fights. So I call your BS and raise you logic.

BS can't make a living. If you do 2 minor plex, which you can do in any PVP frig or dessie, every day for a month that's 300k LP at t1. That's enough for 2 Navy Geddons netting you 800m+. You can literally do 2 minors while looking for fights. So I call your BS and raise you logic.

Give me a break. You and all your friends and allies are fail if you can't support yourself at FW Tier 1 payouts. HTFU and go pirate if you think you have it so bad. Somehow those guys are able to make a living.

What? Amarr can reach Tier 2 right now? , indeed.

... XG if you are too dumb to realize most people will prefer more money to less then i don't even know why I think I will change your mind.

I don't know why you are rolling your eyes or are even commenting.

• You know Poetic is an outright liar when she says she can only afford to fly cheap ships and fits.
• You also know that Tier 2 - which your side is currently at - provides enough resources for both sides to put up a good fight.
• And you also know that the issue w.r.t alts following the isk and affecting occupancy warfare has been addressed by me, and that I agree it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

So, what exactly is your complaint here?

Amarr is at tier 2. We've successfully held Siseide for six weeks (?) now. Before the recent patch we had to commit a lot of our resources to deplexing Siseide. You could set your watch to farmers coming and going. After the patch? The farmers have stopped. It has freed a lot of us up. We ran Dal up to 40% on Saturday before they responded. We had Auga up to 30% before I had to leave for work today.

If the farmers are still around I don't see them much. Even dplexing is hazardous in a war zone. Amarr is also working together a lot better then before. The Sahtogas crew got Saikamon vulnerable yesterday and a fleet of fweddit, imlaw, tmfed, and agony flipped it. And killing is awesome on the Amarr side. Hell, I'm very busy with work and family and my computer was in the shop for a week and I still got over 100 kills this month. The Amarr are hungry and mostly positive.

Amarr is at tier 2. We've successfully held Siseide for six weeks (?) now. Before the recent patch we had to commit a lot of our resources to deplexing Siseide. You could set your watch to farmers coming and going. After the patch? The farmers have stopped. It has freed a lot of us up. We ran Dal up to 40% on Saturday before they responded.

...

Of course they did. You saved them the trouble of having their alts contest the system enough for them to make isk dplexing it. If you think the war is winnable with these rules you need a math class.

There is no hope for the underdogs in this system. It deliberately set up to snowball in favor of the winning side.

I don't need a math class. You need to log onto the game. You haven't been on in a month and quite a bit has changed.

If you think this is about winning or losing then you are missing the point to the extent that there are no words. This isnt counter strike where when one side wins the round restarts. The war should be perpetual, as it is. .

[
Previous rules denied the losing side any real ability to make isk better than level 1 missions in high sec, the current rules allow the losing side, assuming tier 2, to make as much isk as we ever have done in the last 2 years before these ******** station lock outs and the tier system.

I know you were always all gung ho about permanently making half what minmatar make but I am not really all that interested.

Any and all pew which happens is purely related to how much isk you can make later with CCP designated dominant carebear faction (= gal/matar). Nothing else features into it. But then again, this is hardly surprising seeing how biased CCP is. Why should I go run plexes for Amarr when I can roll a misson alt and run those for people who already have dominant tier?

well. this is question for any 0.0 sec dweller: why choose any alliance outside of goons/test? Choose better!

The more serious answer: why have you chosen amarr militia? Just move to minmatar one and have fun (because grinding ISK is fun for you).

Think about it.

If it makes you feel any better they can make better LP missioning. So by capturing a plex you can make sure they make less LP than they otherwise would have when they run it back.

This is NOT a complaint because I still killz sh!t ALOT.

However, Caldari and Gallente low security space is near quite. Low is back to the old days when it was largely empty. There also seems to be ALOT less people roaming or living in low security space. The system before was crazy, but you got ALOT more engagements than you do now and I'm talking about everywhere as oppose to specific systems like Nen, vill or Ena. The patch turned out to be a NERF to pvp v0v

Attack creates content (should be paid). Defense creates boredom (should not be paid nearly as much). Right now, the balance is for the defense and people are spending more time defensive plexing than offensive plexing. Not good for creating content....

.....Getting rid of the alt farmers was probably enough of an adjustment. Paying for defensive plexing was probably a bit overboard.

Getting rid of the alt farmers was probably enough of an adjustment. Paying for defensive plexing was probably a bit overboard.

Attack creates content (should be paid). Defense creates boredom (should not be paid nearly as much). Right now, the balance is for the defense and people are spending more time defensive plexing than offensive plexing. Not good for creating content.

Problem is that defense needs something for people to bother

I attribute this to the continued ease of defensive plexing - if rats spawned there that killed you, I think we'd see an immediate shift in farming tendencies....
If the challenge from an NPC standpoint is equal, but there's less pay for defensive plexing, I don't think you'd see this automatic farming reaction everytime an offensive push is made...

Having one side physically travel to the other sides' systems creates content.

Having one side physically travel to the other sides' systems creates content.

If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

Most of our guys prefer the defensive plexes over offensive because 1) require less effort, time, and resources (afk atron for example) 2) they are less likely to meet resistance, and 3) the LP payout is still very high.

You can receive as much LP running a 40% contested defensive plex afk at Tier 4 than you can by running an offensive plex at Tier 2. The offensive plex required a properly fit ship. Which player is creating content? Which one should be rewarded more?

Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort.

To be fair, this is more of an issue with Tier scaling in general, than whether or not rats attack you in d-plexes. But I maintain that if AFK plexing in atrons for decent isk is bad for offensive plexing, its bad for defensive plexing too. I think most players whether you are in FW or not realize why being able to orbit buttons and collect isk without having to play the game is bad. Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?

Exactly my point, players migrate to the activity with the most amount of isk for the least amount of effort.

If you can run content in your own system for 0-75% LP, or the system next door for 100% LP, where do you predict players will be running their plexes?

Why do you think FW has been a joke all summer?

Still not getting what is behind that idea. First you create a problem (defensive plexing) and upon realising it is bound to fail (farmed to oblivion) the solution is to dig the hole even deeper by implementing a solution so artificial it can compete in a Hollywood Most Plastic Surgery pageant..

Its called piling error on top of error. You won't find a better example of it than CCP and Hans' work in faction war.

Fair enough. One idea would be to remove the tier scaling for defensive plexing.

That wasn't your point at all. Your assumption was that players would migrate to the most amount of ISK, no matter the hassle.

If that were the case than everyone in highsec would be fielding Hulks instead of Mackinaws. But by all means, keep putting words in my mouth.

Fixed that for you.

I'm warning you. If you aren't properly obsequious to Hans, he won't talk to you, and lots of minmatar will get all huffy.

Therefore we both agree that paying for defensive plexing discourages conflict because rather than going out and intermixing with the opponent, many players will decide to hang out in their home systems and defensive plex for their isk??


Fair enough. One idea would be to remove the tier scaling for defensive plexing.

Not sure what XG is going on about. If people want action, they simply go to a system where players are trying to offensive plex and fight them. .

Players in afk atrons should not be rewarded because doing so discourages conflict. Reward players who create content, not those who destroy it.

I'd much rather we just get rid of AFK atrons completely.

There are other (better) ways to do that beside npcs.

Yes. Rixx Javixx. Unfortunately he cannot be everywhere at once, he is but one man.

The real problem is not with LP, Tiers, Rats or Plexes.

It is with the players. If you join FW to make isk - your motivation is wrong....

The real problem is not with LP, Tiers, Rats or Plexes.

It is with the players. If you join FW to make isk - your motivation is wrong.

At lowest Tier you still make more than you need - I don't care if the Minnies or Gals make 4x more because I can still afford a million merlins or Cormos without even trying.

Change you mindsets and stop thinking of FW as another income stream.

Who really cares if farmers farm. Even at Tier1 forever I will still stay. It makes no difference if I have 2 Bil or 20 bil because I will still never run out of ships to fly.

Greed should not be why you are here so stop crying if someone in another Militia makes more isk than you. It really makes no difference how much their wallet has in it.


I like the afk atrons - they are spawning all the rats so that I can kill them in one hit and then AFK the plex button. TY gunless atrons for making FW plexes afkable so soon after the patch. Every cloud has a silver lining. :)

Isk and rewards are not the issue. We have already "proven" all sides in FW make enough isk to continue the war. Carry on.

Are you sure you're not Minmatar?

Are you sure you're not Minmatar?

Isk and rewards are not the issue. We have already proven all sides in FW make enough isk to continue the war. Carry on.

Could you offer this proof?

Tier 2 = Pre-inferno lp payouts. People could afford unlimited ships pre-inferno.

What happens when the Amarr end up at T1, because I doubt many of us are going to give a flying **** about circling buttons.

They'll be spending all their time circling buttons solo, and not spending much time PvPing. Which is probably not why they joined FW.

stupidity

What happens when the Amarr end up at T1, because I doubt many of us are going to give a flying **** about circling buttons.

make 50% of the LP the minmatar do...

.. and now you whine you can't afford ships?

What happens when the Amarr end up at T1, because I doubt many of us are going to give a flying **** about circling buttons. Right now nobody from the Minmatar are trying to conquer systems. But eventually they probably will. We're in Egghelende for a reason, so that we don't have to care about PvE (we're nowhere near the systems we actually "control".) If the largest, most active Amarr alliances don't try to maintain any system sovereignty, how do all those other smaller alliances, who may care, try to earn an income for effective ships at T1? They'll be spending all their time circling buttons solo, and not spending much time PvPing. Which is probably not why they joined FW.

This exemplifies a major hurdle for the Amarr-- they don't give a **** about the system and refuse to partake; however, they still feel entitled to complain about how unfair this system they are not interested in using is.

Interesting.

okay enough of the ******* bullshit.

if you aren't living in FW lowsec, you might as well get the **** out of FW and become a pirate.

quit crying about orbiting ******* buttons.

make an alt to defensive plex and get wtf LP for doing absolutely nothing. oh wait...your alt is in minmatar militia...you ******* morons.

use your main to go where SOMEONE LIVES and you will get ALL THE ******* FIGHTS YOU ******* WANT.

If you want isk, and don't want to do "PVE"...well then guess what? YOU WERE DOING PVE DOING THE ******* FW MISSIONS BEFORE INFERNO FOR FUCKS SAKE.

at least now when you "PVE" orbiting a button you get isk AND POSSIBLY A FIGHT.

so GET THE **** OUT of FW and become a ******* PIRATE if you want to keep ******* COMPLAINING about the ******* MECHANICS that exisited PRE-******* INFERNO regarding PVE to make isk.

you can find PVP if you plex. so it turns out you get the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

oh **** i'm making LP AND killing ******* that enter the ******* PLEX I'M ORBITING...OHGODWHY

OH NOES no one entered my plex and i finished it?! wow i just made 10MIL ISK FOR DOING A MINOR...oh wait if you're amarr YOU MADE ABOUT 17 MIL.

oh noes we're at tier 1 boo ******* hoo...but you can't complain if you hit tier 1 because YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF FW ******* LOWSEC.

ERMAGERD I DON'T WANT TO GET LOCKED OUT OF MY STUFFZ...then take your dumb ******* alt out of minmatar militia and put him back into your militia and DEFENSIVE PLEX...

and quit piling every major corp into one ******* system... are you English or ********? seriously... move to a few systems 2-3 jumps away and OH MY GOD WE CAN HOLD MULTIPLE SYSTEMS...oh and NOW YOU CAN USE YOUR ****** ALT to defend ALL THE SYSTEMS AROUND YOU...

so ENOUGH OF THE ******* BULLSHIT...

oh and regarding the "BLAH BLAH ESZUR/HOF CHOKE"....yeah it ******* SUCKS...but guess what? THERE ARE SYSTEMS IN METRO that you can move your ****** ******* ATTITUDE CORP TO...

(Gò»-¦Gûí-¦n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+

What happens when the Amarr end up at T1, because I doubt many of us are going to give a flying **** about circling buttons. Right now nobody from the Minmatar are trying to conquer systems. But eventually they probably will. We're in Egghelende for a reason, so that we don't have to care about PvE (we're nowhere near the systems we actually "control".) If the largest, most active Amarr alliances don't try to maintain any system sovereignty, how do all those other smaller alliances, who may care, try to earn an income for effective ships at T1? They'll be spending all their time circling buttons solo, and not spending much time PvPing. Which is probably not why they joined FW.