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Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
133
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 01:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I posted this topic before and it got locked. The reason why i feel ecm boats should be nerfed is because they are way way overpowered. A good skilled falcon pilot can perma jam at over 50km. I have been in fights(not with this toon) where a falcon is jamming over 90 to 110km. If this is a game of pvp, the pvp should be balanced. Lets take a look at nuets. A person could nuet you out, but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth. Use Eccm you say, that stuff does not work, and if the falcon pilot has two ecm for your ship, you are still jammed up to 10 seconds or more. Flew a cyclone with eccm and jackal implants in one fight and still got jammed. How is this fair Say I am flying a hurri, which does around 600dps, being jammed for 10 seconds is alot of dps. Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing. Either nerf ecm boats or give more power to eccm, or have a special midslot for eccm. |

TheTrue Acolyte
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 01:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mistress Lilu wrote:I posted this topic before and it got locked.
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
The way and the life of HiSec. Heed the Code and achieve everlasting mining cycles:
http://www.minerbumping.com |

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1675
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 01:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
TheTrue Acolyte wrote:Mistress Lilu wrote:I posted this topic before and it got locked. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein Posting on General Discussion and expecting to get what you want.
While not a miner. Tsk. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3340
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 01:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
I used to fly a falcon, back before they got nerfed "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |

Jonah Gravenstein
Holistic Materials Research Council
2215
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 01:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
haha you think Eve should be fair?
sorry to disillusion you but the only fair fights in Eve are the ones you win. Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
122
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think ECM should stop being a Caldari specialization. Rather each race should have ECM bonuses for their racial enemy's ships:
Minmatar get Radar ECM bonuses Gallente get Gravimetric ECM bonuses Caldari get Megnetometric ECM bonuses Amarr get Ladar ECM bonuses
As for the other forms of EW, simply give each race a different way to make use of it:
Caldari: EW Optimal (not ECM) Gallente: EW Cap Use Amarr: EW Duration Minmatar: EW Falloff
This would affect all TP, RSD, TDs, etc.
ECM would have similar bonuses on all current EW ships.
This makes ECM less about spamming Falcons and more about actual tactical target counter jamming
The only major change to ships needed for this to work is a remastery of the Scorpion. Ideas on how to handle that are many. My thought is make it like the old Typhoon with 8 hi slots, and a hybrid damage bonus and a missile RoF bonus 4/4 turret/launcher split. Remove two midslots. Increase fittings 40%.
|

Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
138
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
New and exciting topic!
No afk cloaking tears today, let's cry about ECM again? |

baltec1
Bat Country
2652
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Why would you want to nerf CCP Falcon?
Hes one of the more chatty blue bars. |

Remiel Pollard
Devlin Security Devlin Alliance
6
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
ECCM - You're just doing it wrong.
Have you ever noticed how a Falcon has a skill bonus to ECM usage? That makes it particularly useful for ECM. So if you're going to fight one, expect ECM. I am 12 and what is this?? |

Webvan
State War Academy Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 02:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nerf the ECM AFK Cloakers in Tengu's, naow!  |
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Risien Drogonne
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 04:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:I think ECM should stop being a Caldari specialization. Rather each race should have ECM bonuses for their racial enemy's ships:
Minmatar get Radar ECM bonuses Gallente get Gravimetric ECM bonuses Caldari get Megnetometric ECM bonuses Amarr get Ladar ECM bonuses
As for the other forms of EW, simply give each race a different way to make use of it:
Caldari: EW Optimal (not ECM) Gallente: EW Cap Use Amarr: EW Duration Minmatar: EW Falloff
This would affect all TP, RSD, TDs, etc.
ECM would have similar bonuses on all current EW ships.
This makes ECM less about spamming Falcons and more about actual tactical target counter jamming
The only major change to ships needed for this to work is a remastery of the Scorpion. Ideas on how to handle that are many. My thought is make it like the old Typhoon with 8 hi slots, and a hybrid damage bonus and a missile RoF bonus 4/4 turret/launcher split. Remove two midslots. Increase fittings 40%. There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.
ECM has already been nerfed. It's fine. |

Risien Drogonne
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 04:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Double post |

Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
75
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 04:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
Risien Drogonne wrote: There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.
There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact. |

Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
75
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 04:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
TheTrue Acolyte wrote:Mistress Lilu wrote:I posted this topic before and it got locked. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
Also, quoting for great justice, er, truth. |

Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
680
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 04:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
I haven't seen one of these threads in a while... . . . . . . . Okay, I'm good. |

Battlingbean
Star Frontiers THORN Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.01 12:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
First of all, 100% jam is possible if jam strength > target's sensor strength. Although that is rare in practice.
Second ECM absolutely should not be given to all races. The other three races all get 2 other forms of electronic warfare each.
Amarr: Tracking disruption and energy nos/neut Minmatar: Target Painting and webbing Gallente: Sensor damping and warp jamming
Caldari gets ECM which must be as good as it is since Ewar modules take up mid slots so the other races can fit decent armor tanks while ECM ships can fit pretty much just an armor plate for protection. To the OP: I suggest flying ships with naturally high sensor strength such as Electronic warfare ships. Ever tried to jam another falcon? It's actually pretty hard and a Curse will eat a falcon for breakfast. |

Abyssum Invocat
Justified Chaos
25
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 16:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Buff Falcon, nerf whiners. |

Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
234
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 18:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
*checks calendar*
Yup, it's about time for another anti-ECM whine thread.
Search function. Use it.
Oh, and fail better. |

Goldensaver
Vorbild Industries Inc.
79
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 19:20:00 -
[19] - Quote
Funny story. Take a look in F&I.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820&find=unread
Your idea is bad.
But they do dislike the binary nature of ECM, or so I hear. And they do have plans to change up EWar in general... but nobody really knows how they intend to do it. |

Chuc Morris
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 19:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:But they do dislike the binary nature of ECM, or so I hear. And they do have plans to change up EWar in general... but nobody really knows how they intend to do it.
This is the problem. |
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Petrified
At River's Edge TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 23:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mistress Lilu wrote:... but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth....
You answered your own question: it is a matter of having the right ship with the right fit for the right job.
If you are being jammed you may simply need to leave the field of battle if your ship cannot handle it or have a fleet member who is not jammed take out the offending jammer. |

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
146
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 02:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Risien Drogonne wrote:There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.
ECM has already been nerfed. It's fine.
Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.
Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.
So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.
An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.
|

Risien Drogonne
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 04:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:Risien Drogonne wrote: There's nothing tactical about having to put up with pure 100% chance on whether your ship can ever contribute to the fight or not. "Tactical" implies meaningful choice and adaptation, not showing up in the wrong ship that can't contribute at all.
There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact. Nobody said there was. You misunderstood the post. |

Risien Drogonne
Aliastra Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 04:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:
Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.
Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.
So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.
An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.
Sounds like your "solution" is to break ECM and make it useless like what happened to sensor damps. |

zuranus
Gamma Rising Sun
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 12:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
OK
This is your new winter gift,hope you like...it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=168820&find=unread |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10235
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 14:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nah. ECM should just be replaced with a different mechanic that makes more sense and that works on the same kind of logic as the other forms of ewar. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|

Inkarr Hashur
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 15:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
If the thought is that ECM is so strong that it is overcentralizing, doesn't it make more sense to weaken the overall effect of the ECM mechanic, rather than a hard nerf only to the ships without ECM bonus?
For example, a possible alternative ECM doesn't break your target lock, it just shuts off your high slots for the duration of the effect. So the net change is that you no longer have to retarget, and for the duration of the effect you can still be applying your own flavor of e-war. I feel like this would be healthier for the game than the planned change for winter.
But then again, I'm very much a newbie so take what I say with a grain of salt :P |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10235
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 16:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oh, andGǪCephelange du'Krevviq wrote:There's no such thing as 100% chance to jam; having flown ECM boats with very good skills, I can attest to that fact. Sure there is. Having flown ECM boats with any kind of skills, you should know this.
p = Jam Strength / Sensor Strength. Jam Strength > Sensor Strength GåÆ p = 1.
It's a common misconception that ECM is always chance-based, much like it's a common misconception that other ewar never is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|

Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
146
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 17:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Risien Drogonne wrote:Val'Dore wrote:
Showing up in the wrong ship that can never contribute... isn't that statement the antithesis of what I proposed? The idea here is to stop one ship from being the correct choice 99.9875% of the time. There is a reason that the Caldari EW ships are several times more common than the that of the other races'. Because ECM is the universally good EW.
Target Painting can barely be considered EW, Nos/Neuting is not even a little bit EW, and Web/Scrams are as common as Multispec ECMs used to be. Tracking Disruption is not universal, though that seems to be changing. Remote Sensor Dampeners have been considered useless since they are no longer an I Win Button. But everyone still rocks the ECM and they will continue to do so until it is not the end game point conversion victory condition.
So the obvious solution is to balance ECM without 'nerfing' ECM. And the only way to do that is to have it be more situation based rather than universal.
An Electronic Warfare Paradigm Shift is the only way to move forward. Universal Jamming is no fun for anyone. I use ECM drones, and I don't care what that makes anyone think of me any more than the fleets rocking 30% Falcons do.
Sounds like your "solution" is to break ECM and make it useless like what happened to sensor damps.
It must be true, because you said so. How do I break ECM with my idea?
|

Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company To be Announced.
15
|
Posted - 2012.11.03 17:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mistress Lilu wrote:I posted this topic before and it got locked. The reason why i feel ecm boats should be nerfed is because they are way way overpowered. A good skilled falcon pilot can perma jam at over 50km. I have been in fights(not with this toon) where a falcon is jamming over 90 to 110km. If this is a game of pvp, the pvp should be balanced. Lets take a look at nuets. A person could nuet you out, but if you are in the right ships, your weapons do not need the cap to run and you still do dps. Scared of being scrammed, use afterburner and so forth. Use Eccm you say, that stuff does not work, and if the falcon pilot has two ecm for your ship, you are still jammed up to 10 seconds or more. Flew a cyclone with eccm and jackal implants in one fight and still got jammed. How is this fair Say I am flying a hurri, which does around 600dps, being jammed for 10 seconds is alot of dps. Why not make it so that when a falcon perma jamms or jams over x amount of seconds, it will have the chance of self destructing. Either nerf ecm boats or give more power to eccm, or have a special midslot for eccm.
Sensor-Dampeners with Targeting Range script. Works like a ******* charm. Unless you're solo. But then again, if 'they' have a falcon and you are solo, you're probably dead even without the falcon on field. |
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