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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:27:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43
It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs donŠt know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I donŠt have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i donŠt like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch.
I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods.
I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage.
Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule.
EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups???
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Malken
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:29:00 -
[2]
no you will loose that since the devs will cheat and thus win :)
 Originally by: Graelyn
"We're at war with you, and you FIRED on us! I am so telling CONCORD!"
Quote:
[18:46:36] Weebear > WTS Electric Golf Cart, 1 careful owner. Phone Rome 555 6567
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:30:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:30:20
Wipeout  100% wipeout
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Ryy Kishin
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:32:00 -
[4]
Have a cookie while waiting for the server to start up.
Live Hard Die Young Leave A Good Looking Corpse!
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:35:00 -
[5]
No need for cookie - first thing i do (i am not a n00b with crappy gunskills and all my corpmates have good gunskills) is to fit my Tempest with 4 sensor boosters, a tracking comp and max damage mods. As i said: no problem to adapt, but did EVE get better with this patch??? I donŠt think so.
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:37:00 -
[6]
I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor
what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates.
A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number.
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Seto Mazzarotto
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Face Lifter
I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor
what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates.
A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number.
DING DING DING!
Tell 'im what he's won, Johnny! 
-----------
Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll. |
Ukiah
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto
Originally by: Face Lifter
I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor
what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates.
A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number.
DING DING DING!
Tell 'im what he's won, Johnny!
Apathy and disinterest by the Devs?
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Minsc
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:15:00 -
[9]
Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side.
god you guys are so quick to complain.
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splattercat
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:15:00 -
[10]
EW WAS the only thing that made small teams even up the numbers, now thats gone its mass gank fleet setups only,the small skilled PvP corps gone now. It took skill to jam 5+ ships at the same time,cycle jaming.
Still im venting,teasted changes and came to see that thay where going in to TQ no matter what so did not bother posting how crap thay are.so blame me if it sucks coz i got to the point that i think that this sort of change will happen if players want it or not.
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Alaris
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:16:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Alaris on 12/04/2005 23:16:17
I have to agree with Lifewire here.. I don't see why they took this big of change to EW.. a simple change to jammers to make them non-uber distance wise would have been more then enough IMHO.
This makes me scared of the "missile balances" they have coming up... I can just see it now, both caldari battleships being worthless.
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Tyroz Averah
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:29:00 -
[12]
You guys played this game too long, and it's became a routine for u.
Change is good. Really!
- out of confusion comes chaos.
- out of chaos comes confusion and fear.
- ... then comes lunch.
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Undead PsychoNoob
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:29:00 -
[13]
Yes I would also have to agree as well. Why fix something that wasn't broken in the first place? EW was fine. Perhaps the devs should try fixing something that actually needs fixing, like say.....the market?? Way to go devs, your over-zeolousness with the nerf bat has yet again left the eve comunity scratching their heads. Kudos
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Undead PsychoNoob
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:36:00 -
[14]
and for gods sake make sure the patch works before you try to implement it!!!!!
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splattercat
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:38:00 -
[15]
O just foung this out from a m8 (COZ I CANT GET ON)
also webs and scramblers now only have 5 sec duration, so no more fly-by scrambling/webbing..SO any skill out side or orbit ect and ppl who timed there flybys and used SKILL has gone...
All we need now is some sort of card game bilt in to pass the time dureing dull 30 v 30 fleet ganks and eve might be playable
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DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2005.04.13 00:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lifewire
Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43
It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs donŠt know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I donŠt have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i donŠt like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch.
I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods.
I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage.
Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule.
EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups???
you want some cheese??
adapt or quit!
If pvp was too easy it was too easy.
Ew allowed gankage to be far too easy. Now you will have to actualy work for a kill. Is that such an issue to the majority?? NO it isn't.
Does it change things, yes, will it cause players to change tactics, yes.
Do you have to play, NO, you can go play a FPS game for that insta gankage thrill, while the rest of eve plays the RPG...
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:28:00 -
[17]
Quote:
you want some cheese??
adapt or quit!
If pvp was too easy it was too easy.
Ew allowed gankage to be far too easy. Now you will have to actualy work for a kill. Is that such an issue to the majority?? NO it isn't.
Does it change things, yes, will it cause players to change tactics, yes.
Do you have to play, NO, you can go play a FPS game for that insta gankage thrill, while the rest of eve plays the RPG...
As i said there is no problem to adapt - i am not complaining about having problems to adapt. My question is: will this EW-patch make PVP better??? My reaction on this patch will be the massive usage of fastlocking gunships that toast EW ships before they even get a lock. We dont have to discuss that a single Scorpion in a fleet of 10 is a very usefull ship (and primary target  ) - but what most unexperienced PVPers (inculding the DEVs) dont see is that coordination of several EW ships isnt easy and this means that the bigger the battle is, the less usefull EW will be. I think 5 vs 5 already is the limit, in an 10 vs 10 itŠs impossible to coordinate the EW efforts. 10 gunships will do massive damage within seconds, while 10 EW-Scorpions will have massive problems on teamspeak!
In a 10 Scorp vs 10 gunships (fastlock+max-damage) 2 Scorpions will allready be destroyed before they get a lock!!! While the Scorp-players try to coordinate their efforts to jam the gunships more of them die. Once they jammed most enemys they have to re-ccordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. Only 1 not jammed gunship can destroy another Scorpion within 20-30 seconds, while the Scorpions damage output is low, depending on range even less than low.
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:41:00 -
[18]
10 scorps vs. 10 gunboats? What exactly would be the point of that exercise? The devs don't want ECM > all and they don't want gunboats > all. They want a balanced fleet of EW boats, damage boats, support boats and all that. If you want to change that fight into your 10 gunboats vs. devs mixed fleet my money is on the devs.
There is one thing that is right and that is it is a whole lot more difficult to coordinate a 10 EW boats in a fleet battle. It is no longer just to tell the newbie jammer who to target but now the jammer not only has to have good jamming skills but he also has to know what he is doing.
Well to your question though then I think one vs. one fights can be a little more subject to luck if one or boths ships have jammers. In small skirmishes of roughly even fleets I think EW will rule but in large fleet battles I think a damage setups will rule provided that the fleet is organized.
IMO EW has got a whole lot more interesting.
__________
Capacitor research |
Valentine Keen
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:43:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08
Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose.
Gameplay should reward a more balanced and tactical fleet where each element compliments the other to make the combined total more powerful than a specialised group of only one kind.
We've come closer than before, frigates have more of a role now, hopefully with a little speed and armour cruisers may one day too. But we have a way to go.
Balancing the EW element is also important in making people focus on that balance. I'm not an expert in it, so I don't know if this does help that, I just wanted to point out - old or new style a fleet of 10 ships of a single kind shouldn't be winning.
Personally when I came to EVE I saw Cruisers as the mainstay of the fleet, with battleships the rare centrepieces owned by corps not players, but I guess time and isk move on and we've gone beyond that. The fleets of the future will be battleships centred around deadnoughts, but I can't help but wonder where this leaves cruisers. 
Edit: Ha, Dust Puppy got there while I was typing, but I share the sentiments.
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Valentine Keen
Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08
Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose.
Gameplay should reward a more balanced and tactical fleet where each element compliments the other to make the combined total more powerful than a specialised group of only one kind.
We've come closer than before, frigates have more of a role now, hopefully with a little speed and armour cruisers may one day too. But we have a way to go.
Balancing the EW element is also important in making people focus on that balance. I'm not an expert in it, so I don't know if this does help that, I just wanted to point out - old or new style a fleet of 10 ships of a single kind shouldn't be winning.
Personally when I came to EVE I saw Cruisers as the mainstay of the fleet, with battleships the rare centrepieces owned by corps not players, but I guess time and isk move on and we've gone beyond that. The fleets of the future will be battleships centred around deadnoughts, but I can't help but wonder where this leaves cruisers.
Edit: Ha, Dust Puppy got there while I was typing, but I share the sentiments.
You said it a little better those are exactly my views on the subject.
__________
Capacitor research |
IamBen
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:03:00 -
[21]
Nobody has a character with high EW skills yet so its kinda early to tell exactly what the effect will be. Well see in a month from now.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:04:00 -
[22]
I originally hated the changes but after a while I like them alot.
Now ew is moving away from a scorp/bb only tactic and any ship can potentially be a target jammer in a fight.
That said a scorp has the potential to jam up to 8 ships while the bb could jam up to 6 (not a realistic figure I know but it's a fair example nonetheless).
It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle.
It also means if you get target jammed now you're not completely screwed until you either warp out or the jamming ship changes target/dies/warps off. There is a chance you can resist the jamming for 1 cycle and counter jam right back at them.
It is a nerf to small group vs larger groups becuase if the smaller group has a run of bad luck and fails to jam the enemy ships then the smaller fleet is going to die pretty fast. Although on the other hand, it also means if the smaller group is lucky and jams every target, a significant chunk of the larger fleet can't do anything for the moment.
(an idea maybe could be to make a new ship that is an AWACs type ship, it can lock up to 6 friendly ships and give them a boost to ew strength, just an idea that occured to me on the spot).
The only real gripe I have with the ew changes is the ranges. If they could add a module that worked like a sensor booster that boosts lock range and ew range (but not lock time) it would help improve the situation as right now sniper setups will probably be the main thing for the moment.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Tobiaz
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Wild Rho
It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle.
Yeah good luck trying to run ECM on a frigate: The new cap req is insane unless with very good skills and at that point you're not flying a frigate anymore.
The only good thing is that (keeping fingers crossed) hopefully Scorpions and Blackbirds will be a lesser primary target after this patch, because they have become a lot less disrupting for the enemy.
I mean all we'll see now are slugfest shootouts between tach apocs and 1400 tempests and typhoons shooting over 130KM. At this range I think most EW doesn't even work so bringing Scorpions is just useless. Also tacklers are almost useless since there is no way you can bridge 130KM and live, so it becomes even more imperative to do max damage over time so you can instakill ships before they notice their overview screaming 'jumpout'.
If someone disagrees: This is already very visibly happening in the way people are fighting against Xetic.
The patch will only make it more effective then it already was.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:41:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tobiaz
Originally by: Wild Rho
It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle.
Yeah good luck trying to run ECM on a frigate: The new cap req is insane unless with very good skills and at that point you're not flying a frigate anymore.
Well we'll see, I doubt anyone has all the ew skills trained up yet, and I personally need to do some tests after dt with the ecms on differnt ships to see how everything runs.
I remember the devs saying that they had intended certain frigs to be capable of ew and that was part (only a part) of the reason for the changes so I remain optimistic.
Even if tech 1 frigates can't handle it the tech 2 variants might, and even if they can't constantly cycle the mods they maybe able to do ew in bursts.
Question: were the cap sucking ecms you mentioned multis or racial?
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Kuolematon
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:49:00 -
[25]
Before you have even tried those you complain. That says something about your tactics. You want easy and fast gangs and Frags Per Second makes you horny.
How about you play a role in spacegame rather than wh00p everyones ass as fast as you can sing? 
_______________________________________________
My opinions aren't my corporations opinions.
(\_/)
(x.x) This is what's left of Bunny, the rest tasted delicious. |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:52:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Valentine Keen
Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08
Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose.
Apparently you haven't been in a fleet battle lately. 99% Gank - Sniper BS 1% Covertops = teh Win.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Minsc
Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side.
god you guys are so quick to complain.
And what exactly are those 10 Scorps going to do when the enemy warps in at 120+km and start pounding their sorry asses?
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kuolematon
Before you have even tried those you complain. That says something about your tactics. You want easy and fast gangs and Frags Per Second makes you horny.
How about you play a role in spacegame rather than wh00p everyones ass as fast as you can sing?
Easy and fast ganks = Gankship BS.
Lifewire was talking about fighting greater odds.
How about you play the role of "i should shut the hell up when i don't have a clue" instead coming here to troll.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Boratz
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Posted - 2005.04.13 11:59:00 -
[29]
Completely agree with Lifewire here.
EW had a perfect balance and place in the game. To avoid and counter EW ships, pilots would fit backup arrays get the drones out quick then launch fof. If you get jammed and dont have any of these then get out and fight another day.
What confuses me is my ecm multi's are showing a strength of 4.4 each...yet the gravimetric strength of the Raven and Scorpion have been vastly increased and other ships too I would imagine (not ingame atm).
How does a 4.4 multispec jam a 24 point gravimetric scorp?
Some points may be slightly off here due to tiredness and out of game but i think my question is valid.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.04.13 12:05:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/04/2005 12:07:37
I think it all contributes to the % chance of you jamming, using multis instead of racial means your odds of jamming are a little lower but you have a better chance of jamming all 4 races.
e.g. fitting for jamming caldari means you have a high chance of jamming caldari ships but have a very low chance of jamming amarr/gallate/minmatar.
Fitting multis instead means you have less chance of jamming the caldari but (in comparison to the above) you now have an equal chance of jamming amarr/gallante/minmatar.
So now you can choose to be less jamming power but the ability to jam any race with an equal chance, or you can use racial ecms to get a much better chance of jamming a specific type of target.
Hope that makes sense, im not very good at explaining what I mean most times.
Edit: also don't forget there are skills and ship bonuses that increase the strength of your jammers, you need to see how these increase your multis effectiveness as well.
It really is too early yet to see how well the new ew system will work out until some people have trained up for ew and been able to evaluate it with the skills that make the difference.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
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