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ECM patch and what will happen now

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Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs don¦t know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I don¦t have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i don¦t like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch. I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods. I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage. Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule. EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups???
Malken	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:29:00 - [2] no you will loose that since the devs will cheat and thus win :) Originally by: Graelyn "We're at war with you, and you FIRED on us! I am so telling CONCORD!" Quote: [18:46:36] Weebear > WTS Electric Golf Cart, 1 careful owner. Phone Rome 555 6567
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:30:00 - [3] Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:30:20 Wipeout 100% wipeout
Ryy Kishin	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:32:00 - [4] Have a cookie while waiting for the server to start up. Live Hard Die Young Leave A Good Looking Corpse!
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:35:00 - [5] No need for cookie - first thing i do (i am not a n00b with crappy gunskills and all my corpmates have good gunskills) is to fit my Tempest with 4 sensor boosters, a tracking comp and max damage mods. As i said: no problem to adapt, but did EVE get better with this patch??? I don¦t think so.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:37:00 - [6] I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates. A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number.
Seto Mazzarotto	Posted - 2005.04.12 22:39:00 - [7] Originally by: Face Lifter I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates. A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number. DING DING DING! Tell 'im what he's won, Johnny! ----------- Fighting for the ideals of freespace, posthuman ethics, and rock & roll.
Ukiah	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:06:00 - [8] Originally by: Seto Mazzarotto Originally by: Face Lifter I don't think EW will fall completely out of favor what I do is how jamming will lose it's specialization. I think most smart battleship pilots will equip 1 multispec. So you may end up with every freaken bs in game having a chance to jamm you. It'll be especially harsh on frigates. A 1 on 1 fight of otherwise equal opponents may now depend a lot on who's multispec jammer will draw the lucky number. DING DING DING! Tell 'im what he's won, Johnny! Apathy and disinterest by the Devs?
Minsc	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:15:00 - [9] Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side. god you guys are so quick to complain.
splattercat	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:15:00 - [10] EW WAS the only thing that made small teams even up the numbers, now thats gone its mass gank fleet setups only,the small skilled PvP corps gone now. It took skill to jam 5+ ships at the same time,cycle jaming. Still im venting,teasted changes and came to see that thay where going in to TQ no matter what so did not bother posting how crap thay are.so blame me if it sucks coz i got to the point that i think that this sort of change will happen if players want it or not.
Alaris	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:16:00 - [11] Edited by: Alaris on 12/04/2005 23:16:17 I have to agree with Lifewire here.. I don't see why they took this big of change to EW.. a simple change to jammers to make them non-uber distance wise would have been more then enough IMHO. This makes me scared of the "missile balances" they have coming up... I can just see it now, both caldari battleships being worthless.
Tyroz Averah	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:29:00 - [12] You guys played this game too long, and it's became a routine for u. Change is good. Really! - out of confusion comes chaos. - out of chaos comes confusion and fear. - ... then comes lunch.
Undead PsychoNoob	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:29:00 - [13] Yes I would also have to agree as well. Why fix something that wasn't broken in the first place? EW was fine. Perhaps the devs should try fixing something that actually needs fixing, like say.....the market?? Way to go devs, your over-zeolousness with the nerf bat has yet again left the eve comunity scratching their heads. Kudos
Undead PsychoNoob	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:36:00 - [14] and for gods sake make sure the patch works before you try to implement it!!!!!
splattercat	Posted - 2005.04.12 23:38:00 - [15] O just foung this out from a m8 (COZ I CANT GET ON) also webs and scramblers now only have 5 sec duration, so no more fly-by scrambling/webbing..SO any skill out side or orbit ect and ppl who timed there flybys and used SKILL has gone... All we need now is some sort of card game bilt in to pass the time dureing dull 30 v 30 fleet ganks and eve might be playable
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2005.04.13 00:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs don¦t know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I don¦t have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i don¦t like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch. I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods. I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage. Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule. EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups??? you want some cheese?? adapt or quit! If pvp was too easy it was too easy. Ew allowed gankage to be far too easy. Now you will have to actualy work for a kill. Is that such an issue to the majority?? NO it isn't. Does it change things, yes, will it cause players to change tactics, yes. Do you have to play, NO, you can go play a FPS game for that insta gankage thrill, while the rest of eve plays the RPG...
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:28:00 - [17] Quote: you want some cheese?? adapt or quit! If pvp was too easy it was too easy. Ew allowed gankage to be far too easy. Now you will have to actualy work for a kill. Is that such an issue to the majority?? NO it isn't. Does it change things, yes, will it cause players to change tactics, yes. Do you have to play, NO, you can go play a FPS game for that insta gankage thrill, while the rest of eve plays the RPG... As i said there is no problem to adapt - i am not complaining about having problems to adapt. My question is: will this EW-patch make PVP better??? My reaction on this patch will be the massive usage of fastlocking gunships that toast EW ships before they even get a lock. We dont have to discuss that a single Scorpion in a fleet of 10 is a very usefull ship (and primary target ) - but what most unexperienced PVPers (inculding the DEVs) dont see is that coordination of several EW ships isnt easy and this means that the bigger the battle is, the less usefull EW will be. I think 5 vs 5 already is the limit, in an 10 vs 10 it¦s impossible to coordinate the EW efforts. 10 gunships will do massive damage within seconds, while 10 EW-Scorpions will have massive problems on teamspeak! In a 10 Scorp vs 10 gunships (fastlock+max-damage) 2 Scorpions will allready be destroyed before they get a lock!!! While the Scorp-players try to coordinate their efforts to jam the gunships more of them die. Once they jammed most enemys they have to re-ccordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. Only 1 not jammed gunship can destroy another Scorpion within 20-30 seconds, while the Scorpions damage output is low, depending on range even less than low.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:41:00 - [18] 10 scorps vs. 10 gunboats? What exactly would be the point of that exercise? The devs don't want ECM > all and they don't want gunboats > all. They want a balanced fleet of EW boats, damage boats, support boats and all that. If you want to change that fight into your 10 gunboats vs. devs mixed fleet my money is on the devs. There is one thing that is right and that is it is a whole lot more difficult to coordinate a 10 EW boats in a fleet battle. It is no longer just to tell the newbie jammer who to target but now the jammer not only has to have good jamming skills but he also has to know what he is doing. Well to your question though then I think one vs. one fights can be a little more subject to luck if one or boths ships have jammers. In small skirmishes of roughly even fleets I think EW will rule but in large fleet battles I think a damage setups will rule provided that the fleet is organized. IMO EW has got a whole lot more interesting. __________ Capacitor research
Valentine Keen	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:43:00 - [19] Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08 Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose. Gameplay should reward a more balanced and tactical fleet where each element compliments the other to make the combined total more powerful than a specialised group of only one kind. We've come closer than before, frigates have more of a role now, hopefully with a little speed and armour cruisers may one day too. But we have a way to go. Balancing the EW element is also important in making people focus on that balance. I'm not an expert in it, so I don't know if this does help that, I just wanted to point out - old or new style a fleet of 10 ships of a single kind shouldn't be winning. Personally when I came to EVE I saw Cruisers as the mainstay of the fleet, with battleships the rare centrepieces owned by corps not players, but I guess time and isk move on and we've gone beyond that. The fleets of the future will be battleships centred around deadnoughts, but I can't help but wonder where this leaves cruisers. Edit: Ha, Dust Puppy got there while I was typing, but I share the sentiments.
Dust Puppy	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Valentine Keen Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08 Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose. Gameplay should reward a more balanced and tactical fleet where each element compliments the other to make the combined total more powerful than a specialised group of only one kind. We've come closer than before, frigates have more of a role now, hopefully with a little speed and armour cruisers may one day too. But we have a way to go. Balancing the EW element is also important in making people focus on that balance. I'm not an expert in it, so I don't know if this does help that, I just wanted to point out - old or new style a fleet of 10 ships of a single kind shouldn't be winning. Personally when I came to EVE I saw Cruisers as the mainstay of the fleet, with battleships the rare centrepieces owned by corps not players, but I guess time and isk move on and we've gone beyond that. The fleets of the future will be battleships centred around deadnoughts, but I can't help but wonder where this leaves cruisers. Edit: Ha, Dust Puppy got there while I was typing, but I share the sentiments. You said it a little better those are exactly my views on the subject. __________ Capacitor research
IamBen	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:03:00 - [21] Nobody has a character with high EW skills yet so its kinda early to tell exactly what the effect will be. Well see in a month from now.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:04:00 - [22] I originally hated the changes but after a while I like them alot. Now ew is moving away from a scorp/bb only tactic and any ship can potentially be a target jammer in a fight. That said a scorp has the potential to jam up to 8 ships while the bb could jam up to 6 (not a realistic figure I know but it's a fair example nonetheless). It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle. It also means if you get target jammed now you're not completely screwed until you either warp out or the jamming ship changes target/dies/warps off. There is a chance you can resist the jamming for 1 cycle and counter jam right back at them. It is a nerf to small group vs larger groups becuase if the smaller group has a run of bad luck and fails to jam the enemy ships then the smaller fleet is going to die pretty fast. Although on the other hand, it also means if the smaller group is lucky and jams every target, a significant chunk of the larger fleet can't do anything for the moment. (an idea maybe could be to make a new ship that is an AWACs type ship, it can lock up to 6 friendly ships and give them a boost to ew strength, just an idea that occured to me on the spot). The only real gripe I have with the ew changes is the ranges. If they could add a module that worked like a sensor booster that boosts lock range and ew range (but not lock time) it would help improve the situation as right now sniper setups will probably be the main thing for the moment. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Wild Rho It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle. Yeah good luck trying to run ECM on a frigate: The new cap req is insane unless with very good skills and at that point you're not flying a frigate anymore. The only good thing is that (keeping fingers crossed) hopefully Scorpions and Blackbirds will be a lesser primary target after this patch, because they have become a lot less disrupting for the enemy. I mean all we'll see now are slugfest shootouts between tach apocs and 1400 tempests and typhoons shooting over 130KM. At this range I think most EW doesn't even work so bringing Scorpions is just useless. Also tacklers are almost useless since there is no way you can bridge 130KM and live, so it becomes even more imperative to do max damage over time so you can instakill ships before they notice their overview screaming 'jumpout'. If someone disagrees: This is already very visibly happening in the way people are fighting against Xetic. The patch will only make it more effective then it already was.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Tobiaz Originally by: Wild Rho It also means some frigates can also help target jam enemy battleships in a fight giving a greater role to frigates and their counter ships (other frigates/destroyers) in a larger battle. Yeah good luck trying to run ECM on a frigate: The new cap req is insane unless with very good skills and at that point you're not flying a frigate anymore. Well we'll see, I doubt anyone has all the ew skills trained up yet, and I personally need to do some tests after dt with the ecms on differnt ships to see how everything runs. I remember the devs saying that they had intended certain frigs to be capable of ew and that was part (only a part) of the reason for the changes so I remain optimistic. Even if tech 1 frigates can't handle it the tech 2 variants might, and even if they can't constantly cycle the mods they maybe able to do ew in bursts. Question: were the cap sucking ecms you mentioned multis or racial? I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Kuolematon	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:49:00 - [25] Before you have even tried those you complain. That says something about your tactics. You want easy and fast gangs and Frags Per Second makes you horny. How about you play a role in spacegame rather than wh00p everyones ass as fast as you can sing? _______________________________________________ My opinions aren't my corporations opinions. (\_/) (x.x) This is what's left of Bunny, the rest tasted delicious.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Valentine Keen Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08 Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose. Apparently you haven't been in a fleet battle lately. 99% Gank - Sniper BS 1% Covertops = teh Win. Pain is meant to be felt
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Minsc Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side. god you guys are so quick to complain. And what exactly are those 10 Scorps going to do when the enemy warps in at 120+km and start pounding their sorry asses? Pain is meant to be felt
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Kuolematon Before you have even tried those you complain. That says something about your tactics. You want easy and fast gangs and Frags Per Second makes you horny. How about you play a role in spacegame rather than wh00p everyones ass as fast as you can sing? Easy and fast ganks = Gankship BS. Lifewire was talking about fighting greater odds. How about you play the role of "i should shut the hell up when i don't have a clue" instead coming here to troll. Pain is meant to be felt
Boratz	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:59:00 - [29] Completely agree with Lifewire here. EW had a perfect balance and place in the game. To avoid and counter EW ships, pilots would fit backup arrays get the drones out quick then launch fof. If you get jammed and dont have any of these then get out and fight another day. What confuses me is my ecm multi's are showing a strength of 4.4 each...yet the gravimetric strength of the Raven and Scorpion have been vastly increased and other ships too I would imagine (not ingame atm). How does a 4.4 multispec jam a 24 point gravimetric scorp? Some points may be slightly off here due to tiredness and out of game but i think my question is valid.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:05:00 - [30] Edited by: Wild Rho on 13/04/2005 12:07:37 I think it all contributes to the % chance of you jamming, using multis instead of racial means your odds of jamming are a little lower but you have a better chance of jamming all 4 races. e.g. fitting for jamming caldari means you have a high chance of jamming caldari ships but have a very low chance of jamming amarr/gallate/minmatar. Fitting multis instead means you have less chance of jamming the caldari but (in comparison to the above) you now have an equal chance of jamming amarr/gallante/minmatar. So now you can choose to be less jamming power but the ability to jam any race with an equal chance, or you can use racial ecms to get a much better chance of jamming a specific type of target. Hope that makes sense, im not very good at explaining what I mean most times. Edit: also don't forget there are skills and ship bonuses that increase the strength of your jammers, you need to see how these increase your multis effectiveness as well. It really is too early yet to see how well the new ew system will work out until some people have trained up for ew and been able to evaluate it with the skills that make the difference. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Valentine Keen	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Valentine Keen Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08 Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose. Apparently you haven't been in a fleet battle lately. 99% Gank - Sniper BS 1% Covertops = teh Win. I didn't say those fleets don't win, I'm saying they shouldn't if the game is to be balanced and challenging for all.
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:08:00 - [32] Edited by: Tobiaz on 13/04/2005 12:10:30 Originally by: Kuolematon Before you have even tried those you complain. That says something about your tactics. You want easy and fast gangs and Frags Per Second makes you horny. How about you play a role in spacegame rather than wh00p everyones ass as fast as you can sing? ROFL, how many battles have you seen the last 6 months? Or better: of how many have you been at the side that got totally pwned? People fight for the win, some even only for the killmails Fact is though, that with the 120km warpin at enemy by a covert ops with a fleet of tachs and 1400s: - Means instadeath for the unlucky guy who's name follows the words "primary target" no matter what kind of ubertanked apoc he's flying - Means tacklers are fecking useless both because of the range, the hit and run tactics and people dying anyway before they can press 'warp' - Means EW is useless both because of the range and because the enemy just warps out when EW might become troublesome (and kill them in the next 2 or 3 jumpins). - Means pretty certain victory for the people that can coordinate it well enough (being pretty much every PvP corp) vs. people trying anything else. Just look at Xetic: every larger fleetbattle where Xetic was willing to fight they got raped. There should be a f*cking memorial in 68FT. Strategy is dead in any prolonged static encounter larger then 5 ships.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:17:00 - [33] Originally by: Valentine Keen Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Valentine Keen Edited by: Valentine Keen on 13/04/2005 10:44:08 Personally I can't help but think that a fleet of 10 Scorpions or a fleet of 10 gunships - if you're fielding either of those you deserve to lose. Apparently you haven't been in a fleet battle lately. 99% Gank - Sniper BS 1% Covertops = teh Win. I didn't say those fleets don't win, I'm saying they shouldn't if the game is to be balanced and challenging for all. I apologize and agree. Pain is meant to be felt
Spy4Hire	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:19:00 - [34] Originally by: Wild Rho The only real gripe I have with the ew changes is the ranges. If they could add a module that worked like a sensor booster that boosts lock range and ew range (but not lock time) it would help improve the situation as right now sniper setups will probably be the main thing for the moment. That's something I noticed on Singularity while trying to test the new EW: Sniper ships 4TW. No EW can reach them. With stupid fast locktimes imparted by 2 or 3 or more sensor booster 2s a sniper setup will be sitting nice and pretty out at 150-200km and plinking away at anything they choose - notably the futile EW and Tackler frigs desperately trying to get close enough to do some good. IMO The unbalancing effect of stacked sensor boosters needed (NEEDS) a huge nerf in itself. Same with every other mod out there that stacks with little 'penalty' if any at all. But leaving them unchanged while making the ship using them invulnerable is a major game balance upset.
Poister	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:20:00 - [35] I agree with Lifewire 100%. Also I like to point out there are a number of posters here that realy do not have a clue what they are talking about.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:21:00 - [36] To answer the poeple that like the changes and expect a "more balanced" game or more balanced fleets - this will not happen. Extreme fleets with pure and fast ganking-firepower are the best reaction on this patch. Combined with covert ops these gankteams will allways be at their optimal range and they will kill fast - and warp out if jammed. The game mutated to be pure gank. ECM was the counterbalance to damagemod-stacking. This is broken now.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:30:00 - [37] Originally by: Lifewire To answer the poeple that like the changes and expect a "more balanced" game or more balanced fleets - this will not happen. Extreme fleets with pure and fast ganking-firepower are the best reaction on this patch. Combined with covert ops these gankteams will allways be at their optimal range and they will kill fast - and warp out if jammed. The game mutated to be pure gank. ECM was the counterbalance to damagemod-stacking. This is broken now. Fair point, I have to admit I only really operate in small groups of 5 to 6 ships and I tend to avoid larger fleets for exactly the reasons you mentioned above so my experience there is pretty limited. I always thought that the larger fleets used straightup ganking anyway so I didn't see the ew changes making that much of a difference. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Scorpyn	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:39:00 - [38] Edited by: Scorpyn on 13/04/2005 12:46:52 Caldari battleships are now useless for fleet battles. Except the Raven, if you want a close range frig killer. Since I'm not in fleet battles that much nowadays it's not that much of a big deal - they are still useful in small close range fights - but for those who participate in fleet battles more it will most likely be more noticeable.
Al Haquis	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:48:00 - [39] Guys , really check out the new ew skills. Give a scorp pilot, with caldari bs lvl 4-5, a month to train the optimal and the falloff skills and he will be uber. After having checked the skills and the option what you can do with them i come to the comclusion that the ew changes are actually good and after a month when people have there skills trained up we will have endless post about how ew is way to strong and needs to be nerfed. Now you can actually be a ew specialist and train and work with some skills. Your not a specilist if you can use a scorp and ecm. And beeing abile to warp scramble at 40km :) well lets say this combat just go alot more intence. So guys please check out the falloff , optimal bonus skills have a coffee and a smoke and start training ew. CCP congrats now an ew-specilist reallys is an ew-specilist not just a guy in a scorp. BTW : check the scorp/bb bonus changes and do the math guys. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Council Member, Tahiri Warrior Masuat'aa Forums
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Minsc Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side. god you guys are so quick to complain. And what exactly are those 10 Scorps going to do when the enemy warps in at 120+km and start pounding their sorry asses? Warp out perhaps? There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:53:00 - [41] Originally by: Al Haquis Guys , really check out the new ew skills. Give a scorp pilot, with caldari bs lvl 4-5, a month to train the optimal and the falloff skills and he will be uber. After having checked the skills and the option what you can do with them i come to the comclusion that the ew changes are actually good and after a month when people have there skills trained up we will have endless post about how ew is way to strong and needs to be nerfed. Now you can actually be a ew specialist and train and work with some skills. Your not a specilist if you can use a scorp and ecm. And beeing abile to warp scramble at 40km :) well lets say this combat just go alot more intence. So guys please check out the falloff , optimal bonus skills have a coffee and a smoke and start training ew. CCP congrats now an ew-specilist reallys is an ew-specilist not just a guy in a scorp. BTW : check the scorp/bb bonus changes and do the math guys. For once I agree with a UK pilot The new EW will take some getting used to, but with the right skills, it will be truly scary. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:54:00 - [42] <- EW 5 and PJ 5 [Heterocephalus glaber]
Burzon	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. Jesus, you better get a real life ! CEO PAX Interstellar Services
Maggot	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Wild Rho (an idea maybe could be to make a new ship that is an AWACs type ship, it can lock up to 6 friendly ships and give them a boost to ew strength, just an idea that occured to me on the spot). Cool idea, you could also have the reverse, A ship that can instalock (with a long range high slot module) 6 ships and shower them in EW.
Andrue	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Andrue on 13/04/2005 13:04:28 Originally by: Burzon Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. Jesus, you better get a real life ! I think what we're seeing here is the unsubtle art of exageration. Taken at face value the poster is claiming an average of 7 hours a day every day for the last two years. Worse still they claim that was "PvP only". I think that level of blatant exageration and misrepresentation should be taken into consideration when his posts are read. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Burzon	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 13/04/2005 13:04:28 Originally by: Burzon Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. Jesus, you better get a real life ! I think what we're seeing here is the unsubtle art of exageration. Taken at face value the poster is claiming an average of 7 hours a day every day for the last two years. Worse still they claim that was "PvP only". I think that level of blatant exageration and misrepresentation should be taken into consideration when his posts are read. Sure it should, but still, openly claiming to have played even half of that time would bring me back to my comment :D CEO PAX Interstellar Services
Nicholai Pestot	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:11:00 - [47] I have been trying out the new ECM system, and a pair of dampners in a maulus seem to work quite well for a throw-away support ship, and be quite sustainable power-wise. There short(ish) range, and ability to strip others of range does seem to lend them to the 'blaster' way of war. I wonder what effect a combined fleet of maulus' and megarathrons would have. I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh Originally by: Juan Andalusian Originally by: Minsc Did you guys even try ECM? a fleet of 10 scorps would easily lock down and kick the crap out of a fleet of damage ships, just forget about using multispecs ffs, 4 racial jammers per scorp could cover virtually any combination of bs setups with maybe 1 or 2 losses on the scorps side. god you guys are so quick to complain. And what exactly are those 10 Scorps going to do when the enemy warps in at 120+km and start pounding their sorry asses? Warp out perhaps? The primary will be down before he even gets to order the warp to command. The others might escape. Pain is meant to be felt
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:22:00 - [49] I personaly can perfectly understand where devs comning from with all the new skills for EW. And i sorta think its cool. But, 20sec duratin on multispec is a no-no, no more cyrcle jamming, gl trying to coordinate jamming in 10vs10 fights, also cap usage seems bit hight for firages to use them at all.
Jamin Berry	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:45:00 - [50] Lifewire u nub!!! dont say stuff like this!! CCP base EVERY pvp patch on tundragon. i mean i cant go into details right now, but from what i have seen, they do. its either that, or coinsidence. i mean the last 2 i can remember when i was fighting against u was the large groups of thoraxs with more drones than a Bumble Bee jigglo house, ganking norad BS left right and centre. then speed ruptures(altho used by CA and others alike). but seriously i think TDG and the devs should have a 10 vs 10 anyway. my 50 cents ------------------------------------------------ Every time you click here i get 5 smac a ronies
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 15:38:00 - [51] Quote: Lifewire u nub!!! dont say stuff like this!! CCP base EVERY pvp patch on tundragon. i mean i cant go into details right now, but from what i have seen, they do. its either that, or coinsidence. i mean the last 2 i can remember when i was fighting against u was the large groups of thoraxs with more drones than a Bumble Bee jigglo house, ganking norad BS left right and centre. then speed ruptures(altho used by CA and others alike). but seriously i think TDG and the devs should have a 10 vs 10 anyway. my 50 cents lol...we loved EW...especially when attacking outnumbered it was the only option to win a 5 vs 10. But the EW changes does not only affect Tundragons - it will affect the consistance of all fleets. Since i play EVE extreme tactics (5 Thorax, frig-only, EW-strike, Gank-firepower) work very good. And the EW patch is the try to balance an extreme tacticc (EW-strike/jam the whole enemy team). But in the end it only favors another extreme tactic: the gankfleet with fastlocking damagedealers. My corpmates and me really have no problem in adapting, since 95% of us have very very good tempest/geddon or gun skills. But does this mean i have to like this patch? I see the problem that EVE as game looses and that PVP got less interesting.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2005.04.13 16:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Lifewire To answer the poeple that like the changes and expect a "more balanced" game or more balanced fleets - this will not happen. Extreme fleets with pure and fast ganking-firepower are the best reaction on this patch. Combined with covert ops these gankteams will allways be at their optimal range and they will kill fast - and warp out if jammed. The game mutated to be pure gank. ECM was the counterbalance to damagemod-stacking. This is broken now. I dont know where you've been fighting, but the majority of fleets I've seen lately are gankships with a cov ops with little or no EW. This patch probably won't change most of that. There may be more sniping setups true, but if they want to do descent damage they'll have to stay with weaker ammos or they will still be in range for ECM ships. Scorps and blackbirds are still the uber jammers. You can seriously still jam 4-5 targets with little to no problem with either of them and you get more feedback about which module is jamming and when it stops (neat little timer). What has changed is the possibility for other ships to jam you as well. No longer do you have to have at least 5-6 mid slots to be useful in jamming. You can use ships with 3-4 mids and have a chance to jam something, albeit less of a chance than the caldari ships. The game has turned into more of a thinking game with a lot of coordination rather than call a primary and roll the f-keys. How are those 10 gunships going to kill ANY ship when 2 scorps can neutralize most, if not all of them. With skills trained up, you'll be able to jam people up to around 200km with a Scorp (that includes optimal and falloff). Not to mention that there are 8 more scorps backing up the lock that the first two have. A 10 v 10 against the devs (or any breathing PvP'er) with scorps would end up with the scorps staying and laughing while the gunships warp out. Neither would lose too much if anything because the gunships wont be able to hit and the missiles wont get to the gunships before they warp out. The is far from a bad patch, it just changes up the system some which is complicated at first but will bring a lot more balance in the end to the EW modules. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.13 17:55:00 - [53] After much testing on Sisi of this patch before it was ported onto TQ all I have to say is it rocks: It has brought previously useless ships back into the fold. Prime examples here would be the celestis/malus. A maximum skilled celestis with RSD II/ Phased Muon RSD can reduce the locking range/time of a ship to 3% of its original. That ship now kicks ass in a specific EW role that was previously missing. The patch has also made EW more interesting and diverse between the races (Caldari: blanket jamming, Gallente: Targeting sensor jamming, Amarr: Weapon computer jamming, Minmatar: Target painting) It has made EW a more viable career option for High Mem/int Characters, over long training times on Gunnery skills with poor perception/willpower attributes In terms of blanket jamming it has made specific racial jammers actually worth while. With only Caldari BS II (EW skills at V) I had a jamming optimal of 113km with racial jammers. The Scorpion has the potential to get a 121.5 Km optimal EW range and 11.25 EW strength on a single racial jammer. With just two racial jammers you stand an excellent chance of jamming any Battleship at an equivalent range to typical fleet battle gunships. If you stack signal amplifiers in your low slots you have the potential for 8 Racial jammers and yes they do work. Two Scorpions can easily carry 12 racial jammers between them, 3 for each type of Battleship, making an excellent addition to any fleet. In short its made EW better, but not the next no-brainer. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Larno	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:08:00 - [54] I agree the ECM changes are bad. The problem is this: You can get a fleet of 10 gunships (turrets not missiles) and then call primary and secondary targets. You can have all 10 ships focus fire on the primary. Any pilot worth his salt will be locking BOTH ships not just the primary. All ships open fire on the primary and the primary dies fast. No damage is wasted, because the second the target is dead your guns stop firing. Move onto second target, rinse, repeat. Problem with ECM: You can't just call primary target. You have to call like 10 targets so you dont get overlap. With this patch I guess you will just get scorps locking as many as possible and putting 1 ECM on each. Makes more sense this way imo. Problem with missiles: (I think this is balanced overall, but not balanced in fleet combat) Primary target is called. 10 missile boats fire torps. Primary target warps. Ammo is wasted, no effect. This is your problem for choosing missile ships. But also at the same time even if the target does not warp, it does not take 10 volleys of torps to kill something. Most of the ammo is wasted on this. Turret ships FTW basically. Basically fleet setups are limited to: High slots: High dot turrets Med slots: ECM or Sensor booster (ECM to use on any random target because it still has a chance of working even with 1 multispec on a BS). Low slots: Damage mod with maybe a couple of tracking mods. The beauty of eve is the diversity of setups you can have. This is basically not true in PvP anymore, only in NPCing which tbh ain't everyone's cup-o-tea.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs don¦t know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I don¦t have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i don¦t like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch. I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods. I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage. Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule. EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups??? This is right on the money. The nexus of the question is, as you state, why 10 gankgeddons are profoundly more powerful than 10 scorps now???? Should ten of anything of a given class be that much more capable than ten of something else of the same class???? How is this balanced?
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:40:00 - [56] Originally by: Dust Puppy 10 scorps vs. 10 gunboats? What exactly would be the point of that exercise? The devs don't want ECM > all and they don't want gunboats > all. They want a balanced fleet of EW boats, damage boats, support boats and all that. If you want to change that fight into your 10 gunboats vs. devs mixed fleet my money is on the devs. There is one thing that is right and that is it is a whole lot more difficult to coordinate a 10 EW boats in a fleet battle. It is no longer just to tell the newbie jammer who to target but now the jammer not only has to have good jamming skills but he also has to know what he is doing. Well to your question though then I think one vs. one fights can be a little more subject to luck if one or boths ships have jammers. In small skirmishes of roughly even fleets I think EW will rule but in large fleet battles I think a damage setups will rule provided that the fleet is organized. IMO EW has got a whole lot more interesting. Have you ever been nailed by a truly well skilled "high damage\max damage setup" BS? There is nothing "Fun" or skilfull about the experience. Everything is decided before the engagement in two regards: 1) The setup for max damage is correctly considered(all you have to do is look on this board for many different example setups for any BS of your choice) 2) Whether or not "team gank" chooses to engage a given adversary. Once the aforementioned two items are decided correctly, then nothing stops the gank....now at least. Prior to the patch, the gank might not even take place because serious consideration had to be given to the presence of even a single EW asset in a small group engagement situation. Now you just barrel in and gank away while they circle jerk each other and quabble incomprehensibly over teamspeak.....trying mightily to coordinate this "chance based, ever few seconds" brand of EW we have now. You don't have a reasonable expectation of coordinating EW now. That's what the original poster was saying and claiming in regards to it promoting the exclusive "gank ship" preference.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Burzon Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 13/04/2005 13:04:28 Originally by: Burzon Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. Jesus, you better get a real life ! I think what we're seeing here is the unsubtle art of exageration. Taken at face value the poster is claiming an average of 7 hours a day every day for the last two years. Worse still they claim that was "PvP only". I think that level of blatant exageration and misrepresentation should be taken into consideration when his posts are read. Sure it should, but still, openly claiming to have played even half of that time would bring me back to my comment :D To me, even in exxageration as his remark was clearly, it still means that he has some basis from which to put forth his claims.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:48:00 - [58] When i read the answers here i think that a lot of people talk about things they did not experience much. "Testing on testserver" and talking about the "new EW-pilot career"...sorry guys, that¦s all theory that cannot be compared to tranquillity ship-setups. A prepatch attack on 10 enemy BS with 5 Scorpions (EW-strike with a good EW-plan) was possible - i wouldnt try this now postpatch. Prepatch-attacks were allready very dangerous if the EW-group failed to jam all enemys damagedealers very quick. Since the backup arrays (ECCM) are lowslot items, EW was the direct counterpart to damagemod-stacking. BShips have 3 main attributes: damage output, value the ship can suffer damage and possible EW-options. If we talk about gang combats we talk of battles between 5 or 10 or up to 50 vs 50 players... we talk about teamplay. The larger the battle is, the harder it is to coordinate EW-efforts. It was already a prepatch problem that EW-ships didnt have a high combat value in large engaments. Pure firepower ruled. Tanking is also useless since the "primary target" will die anyway - tanked or not, it will die in 0,5-2 seconds...if tanked in 2 seconds - lol. Give me just 1 reason to fit more than 1 EW ship now after patch! To have teamspeak full of EW-pilots pressing sendkey to coordinate their EW-battle??? No thanks - pure firepower will now rule even more than prepatch! 1 fleetcomander will name primary and secondary targets and this will be EVE-PVP. This is why the EW-patch is NOT a good patch. People that know little or nothing about PVP discussed "how EW has to be changed" and DEVs with also low knowledge about what really happens out there in deep 0.0 just patch without seeing the problem that they made EVE a less interesting game. Be sure that our huntingteam will be 10 maxdamage and fastlocking gunships in future. Whatever warps or jumps in will simply be ganked in 0.5 seconds (fleetvolley). On the other hand the frig-hunting-style is highly boosted with this EW-patch. The EW-patch is a gift for groups of 5-10 frigates that want to sink single-flying BS. I am not ****ed about "being nerfed" since i am not nerfed! I simply don¦t like that EVE lost a gamestyle and is reduced to pure firepower. I do agree with people that say 1 Scorpion in a group of 10 ships is a usefull ship - no question: this EW-Scorpion can jam up to 3-4 ships with some luck and such an EW-Scorpion can definitivly win a battle "alone" by reducing the enemy firepower. But coordinating several EW-ships will be nearly impossible and the best part of EVE (attacking 10 enemy BS in 5 BS or attacking 5 BS in 5 Blackbirds) will be history now. The real problem were people that didnt fit backups and complained a lot about beeing jammed all the time. Soon they will complain about brutal firepower - just a mather time. EW was fine - now it¦s a "toy" and all gangs will have 1 Scorp (that always will be primary target ).
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.13 18:54:00 - [59] I'd like to isolate on the following part of Lifewire's reply: Originally by: Lifewire But in the end it only favors another extreme tactic: the gankfleet with fastlocking damagedealers. My corpmates and me really have no problem in adapting, since 95% of us have very very good tempest/geddon or gun skills. But does this mean i have to like this patch? I see the problem that EVE as game looses and *that PVP got less interesting*. (emphasis added my me) Basically the rationale t0mb gave for doing this stuff was to more depth to EW skillwise and make it more interesting. I think we clearly can see that this had boomeranged and actually just makes another set of extreme tactics the preferred approach and of course doesn't nothing to make pvp more interesting.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2005.04.13 19:13:00 - [60] 1 v 1 at any normal range (15km-150km), the scorp can jam any gunship without much problem at all (assuming ew skills and bship skills are trained to decent levels). 5 jammers, Sensor Booster, Shield Booster, Shield Boost amp/Shield hardener. If you need a little extra range add a sig amp in a lowslot. With that setup, you should never lose to a sniper 1v1. 10 v 10 with the same scorp setup, the primary scorp target will not likely die before the scorp fleet gets a lock though it will take serious damage. At sniping ranges, you will definitely not kill a ship before they can lock. If there is no other coordination than each ship jam another ship, the 10 gunships are rendered useless. If the gunships are closer with stronger ammo, you could possibly lose a scorp before all the gunships are targeted and jammed. However, it will be HIGHLY unlikely to lose a second scorp unless the pilots are complete idiots. The truth is that EW is still VERY effective and quite useful in fleet engagements especially in a scorp or blackbird. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Ivilb Itch	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:37:00 - [61] ECM is no longer a primary offensive system, its a complementary offensive/defensive system. In addition to guns, drones and missiles you can use ECM to get the advantage in certain situations. This means that fleet combat will be more complex than "Primary target, the scorps". <ooc> Most airforces today have some ECM gear built into their aircraft. They also have ECM pods that can be fitted to add to that and increase the survivability further. Special ECM aircraft flies sorties where the pods are not sufficient. Eve is moving more towards that model than the "Hahah! I have 6 scorps you have 3! I win". </ooc> ________________________________ Victim of unnatural selection
Serret	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:38:00 - [62] Originally by: Marcus Grisbius 10 v 10 with the same scorp setup, the primary scorp target will not likely die before the scorp fleet gets a lock though it will take serious damage. I have to disagree with what you are saying here. In my experience, 10 gunships could easily lock, fire, and kill (pick any) 2 of those scorps before they were jammed out. As none of the scorps have any serious ability to return fire or hold captive the enemy fleet, just rinse and repeat. Quote: At sniping ranges, you will definitely not kill a ship before they can lock. 10 properly fitted gunships can take out a scorp in the first volley, and they will probably get in 2 volleys before the scorps (slowest of all ships) lock. Quote: The truth is that EW is still VERY effective and quite useful in fleet engagements especially in a scorp or blackbird. Most likely yes, but not in the way you seem to think it works.
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:58:00 - [63] although i dont like lifewire i agree with his post - i dont see a reason for that change..
Val Amon	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:11:00 - [64] Tech 2 jammers = -9 that means you could jamm 3 ships even with T2 Backup arrays and still have 1 sensor booster and shield or just jam 2 ships and have tanking too something had to be done -9 is way too good for the previous ew system, that being said I plan on running damage only setups now. I am in full agreement that ew was the ONLY way to take on greater numbers like 4 vs 8 and do ok. _ _ How many pilots does it take to wire a Flux Capacitor? 3, 1 to wire it and 2 to talk about how the old one was better.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:08:00 - [65] Edited by: Lifewire on 13/04/2005 22:10:04 Quote: 1 v 1 at any normal range (15km-150km), the scorp can jam any gunship without much problem at all (assuming ew skills and bship skills are trained to decent levels). 5 jammers, Sensor Booster, Shield Booster, Shield Boost amp/Shield hardener. If you need a little extra range add a sig amp in a lowslot. With that setup, you should never lose to a sniper 1v1. This makes me think you did not participate in many battles. In a 15km battle the enemy BS can easily fire a (if Tempest devastating) volley and knock out shield before Scorpion has a lock. Rest can be done with FOFs and drones. The Scorpion itself doesnt have the damage output to win the battle fast enough. In a 150km battle the Scorpions damage is reduced to 0...repeat: 0. While the sniper can warp-in and out and always get a lock again before being jammed. Winning a 1 vs 1 in a Scorp is not easy. Winning a 1 vs 1 in a gankageddon is very easy. Quote: 10 v 10 with the same scorp setup, the primary scorp target will not likely die before the scorp fleet gets a lock though it will take serious damage. Bull$hit - 10 gunships destroy a Scorpion in less than 2 seconds. I don¦t know what you think a gunship is - me i think gunships have a average damageoutput of 800+/second. Setups with much more are possible. If we calculate a damage-output of 1000/second/gunship, the primary targets is down after 2 seconds. That¦s not fun - that¦s pure firepower and very easy combat. The primary targets are just unlucky guys that see their ship and 1 second later they see Structure, another second later they sit in pod. Quote: At sniping ranges, you will definitely not kill a ship before they can lock. If there is no other coordination than each ship jam another ship, the 10 gunships are rendered useless. Hellohello - jamming 10 ships is not easy! The coordination on teamspeak to jam 10 ships needs a lot of time...too much. While the Scorpteam talks about who jams who they die like flys (1 BS all 2 seconds). A 10 ship Tempest fleet volley knocks out any known ship in this game. You might survive in a ship with 30000 hitpoints though. Quote: If the gunships are closer with stronger ammo, you could possibly lose a scorp before all the gunships are targeted and jammed. You WILL loose ships and not only 1! If 10 Gunships open fire and split fire on 2 targets you loose 2 BS all 4 seconds...4 seconds!!! This is the time a Scorp with 2 sensor boosters needs to get a lock! We are not talking about NPCs - we talk about players...good players, fast players that know 0.0 rules: fire and talk later. Quote: However, it will be HIGHLY unlikely to lose a second scorp unless the pilots are complete idiots. You don¦t have to be an idiot to loose more than 2 Scorps - but beeing and idiot probably makes you loose 3-4 very quick. Quote: The truth is that EW is still VERY effective and quite useful in fleet engagements especially in a scorp or blackbird. As i said 1 Scorpion is VERY effective...but 5 Scorpions are not because coordinating EW recommends very good and trained personal. That a single Scorpion is eefective will cause that a single Scorpion in a fleet battle will for sure be primary target. So far i have to say that nobody can say why this patch improves the game. There is also no complaining of Caldary players, since most PVPers did split their skills and are able to fly other ships. Me for example can fly Tempest or Megathron with same skill level and all my corpmates have decent gunskills. Sure, we all can adapt on this - no question. But was the game improved??? I still don¦t think so.
Voltex	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:41:00 - [66] EW was not fine before the patch, it required no skill wotsoever, u could target jamm any damn ship u wanted at any damn range u wanted and it was ** easy, it least now its like everything else, you train skills to get your EW/ECM higher in order to become better at pVp. It aint one rule applys to all now. and the only way the devs wouldnt win is if u fitted sumet to counter the jammers, if not you would be toast. 'Your 250mm Carbide completely misses Guristas Annihilator, Doing 0 damage'**
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:19:00 - [67] Quote: EW was not fine before the patch, it required no skill wotsoever, u could target jamm any damn ship u wanted at any damn range u wanted and it was **** easy, it least now its like everything else, you train skills to get your EW/ECM higher in order to become better at pVp. It aint one rule applys to all now. and the only way the devs wouldnt win is if u fitted sumet to counter the jammers, if not you would be toast. Sir yes sir oh my good
Alithieniel Cascade	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:28:00 - [68] Originally by: Voltex EW was not fine before the patch, it required no skill wotsoever, u could target jamm any damn ship u wanted at any damn range u wanted and it was **** easy, it least now its like everything else, you train skills to get your EW/ECM higher in order to become better at pVp. It aint one rule applys to all now. and the only way the devs wouldnt win is if u fitted sumet to counter the jammers, if not you would be toast. Yes, EW required very little Skill Point to be effective. I agree with that part. And i agree that change is was needed, skills, range, etc, BUT, nerfing multispecs to 20sec duration was a very bad idea, i mean people who dont like the changes wouldnt be so upset (i think) if CCP wouldnt make multiscpes so goddamn useless in med-large engagments.
DARTHxFREE	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:49:00 - [69] it alll smells like another caldari domination to me,..... have they no waekness, even the bager MKII has legendary storys to tell >:-E3 !!!rrraY I'm an anti pirate,...life's the wrong way round.
Beringe	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:12:00 - [70] Nobody really knows what will happen. We have some changes, that I will argue are good in theory. However, I doubt any of us can predict all the new possible setups and tactics that will evolve from this. After all, cycle jamming wasn't predicted by anyone, was it? Let's give it a try before we make quick judgements, shall we? I for one am not quite ready to retire my scorpion for good. ------------------------------------------- "My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead." "No, it's none of your business."
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:21:00 - [71] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 14/04/2005 00:22:09 Don't know about you guys but the new EW for me is like CCP putting in that "Iwin" button I always wanted. 1 EW mod can jam you! 2 mods increases the chances of jamming you! But wait, the EW strength is only -6 when the ship can take 19! WHO CARES I JAM YOU! Skil Skill Skill! 3 EW means you're really ******! Tempest with 4 EW no target locks for you! I win! Might be usless to you in fleet battles but solo I WIN! Nerf the EW god damnit! Put it back the way it originaly was but leave the cool neat skills you created! Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:45:00 - [72] Originally by: Lifewire When i read the answers here i think that a lot of people talk about things they did not experience much. "Testing on testserver" and talking about the "new EW-pilot career"...sorry guys, that¦s all theory that cannot be compared to tranquillity ship-setups. Excuse me? 'all theory'? Not at all, I even gave you the hard numbers in my post. If you have done any testing on Sisi in the weeks prior to patch day, you would see the Scorpion still jams the heck out of anything and now has the added benefit of doing it to multiple targets at the same time. If you want to do it at extreme range and ensure maximum multi-target jamming potential you simply have to use racial jammers, 1 of which has ~ a 50% chance of jamming a Battleship with good skills. Originally by: Lifewire A prepatch attack on 10 enemy BS with 5 Scorpions (EW-strike with a good EW-plan) was possible - i wouldnt try this now postpatch. Prepatch-attacks were allready very dangerous if the EW-group failed to jam all enemys damagedealers very quick. Since the backup arrays (ECCM) are lowslot items, EW was the direct counterpart to damagemod-stacking. Why does the patch make so much difference? The scorpion damage output has not changed, the Scorpion jamming capability has if anything improved (if you have been on the test server you would know just how effective EW on a scorp is at keeeping a target jammed). So why is it any different now? Originally by: Lifewire BShips have 3 main attributes: damage output, value the ship can suffer damage and possible EW-options. If we talk about gang combats we talk of battles between 5 or 10 or up to 50 vs 50 players... we talk about teamplay. The larger the battle is, the harder it is to coordinate EW-efforts. It was already a prepatch problem that EW-ships didnt have a high combat value in large engaments. Pure firepower ruled. Tanking is also useless since the "primary target" will die anyway - tanked or not, it will die in 0,5-2 seconds...if tanked in 2 seconds - lol. And the patch changes this... how? Fleets will always consist of 'gank' gunships. Fit racial jammers to a Scorpion and you will reach out to equivalent gunship range. Originally by: Lifewire Give me just 1 reason to fit more than 1 EW ship now after patch! To have teamspeak full of EW-pilots pressing sendkey to coordinate their EW-battle??? No thanks - pure firepower will now rule even more than prepatch! 1 fleetcomander will name primary and secondary targets and this will be EVE-PVP. This is why the EW-patch is NOT a good patch. How does the patch change EW coordination? because the scorpion can now on average jam more ships than before, at the same time? Originally by: Lifewire People that know little or nothing about PVP discussed "how EW has to be changed" and DEVs with also low knowledge about what really happens out there in deep 0.0 just patch without seeing the problem that they made EVE a less interesting game. Be sure that our huntingteam will be 10 maxdamage and fastlocking gunships in future. Whatever warps or jumps in will simply be ganked in 0.5 seconds (fleetvolley). On the other hand the frig-hunting-style is highly boosted with this EW-patch. The EW-patch is a gift for groups of 5-10 frigates that want to sink single-flying BS. I am not **ed about "being nerfed" since i am not nerfed! I simply don¦t like that EVE lost a gamestyle and is reduced to pure firepower. I do agree with people that say 1 Scorpion in a group of 10 ships is a usefull ship - no question: this EW-Scorpion can jam up to 3-4 ships with some luck and such an EW-Scorpion can definitivly win a battle "alone" by reducing the enemy firepower. But coordinating several EW-ships will be nearly impossible and the best part of EVE (attacking 10 enemy BS in 5 BS or attacking 5 BS in 5 Blackbirds) will be history now. You still have not explained how this patch (or why you think this patch) makes EW different or more difficult to coordinate in a battle. Originally by:** Lifewire The real problem were people that didnt fit backups and complained a lot about beeing jammed all the time. Soon they will complain about brutal firepower - just a mather time. EW was fine - now it¦s a "toy" and all gangs will have 1 Scorp (that always will be primary target ). Aside from the fact that Scorpions are always primary target anyway. It is most certainly not a toy, why limit yourself to one scorpion that can jam multiple BS simualtaneously, why not bring 3? or 4? Fit them with racial jammers in multiples of two or three. Multiples of two gives you ~75% chance of jamming a BS, multiples of three gives you ~88% chance of a jam. Four Scorpions with 3 pairs of racial jammers have a 75% chance of jamming 12 enemy Battleships at the same time. That's not a toy, thats a force multiplier... (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.04.14 08:39:00 - [73] Originally by: Lifewire Quote: EW was not fine before the patch, it required no skill wotsoever, u could target jamm any damn ship u wanted at any damn range u wanted and it was **** easy, it least now its like everything else, you train skills to get your EW/ECM higher in order to become better at pVp. It aint one rule applys to all now. and the only way the devs wouldnt win is if u fitted sumet to counter the jammers, if not you would be toast. Sir yes sir oh my good He kinda has a point life about it being prettty skilless, you could have someone with 3mil sp or 20mil sp and the 3mil char would be just as effective as the 20mil. Maybe the old ecm style BUT extra skills needed to be effective would have been better
SwitchBl4d3	Posted - 2005.04.14 08:52:00 - [74] MEXICAN STANDOFFSS AND COVERT CHOPS "Teh lord of Nonni"
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:41:00 - [75] To answer Gabriel Karade: Sisi testing and Tranquilitys battles are 2 different things. I did not say that the Scorpion was totally nerfed. The coordination of EW was changed, though. A single Scorpion is pretty usefull - no doubt. But several EW ships will have big problems coordinating the EW since items now work luck based. The more ships in a battle use EW the more coordination is needed. Once 4-5 EW ships work teamspeak will be full of "i failed jamming XY" or "i also jammed him - $hit". This is not Sisi, this is Tranquility. Coordinating several EW ships with luck based items and do this again after each cicle is not possible (in time). Coordinating gunships meanwhile is very easy: call 2 targets and all players lock fast, then all press F1-F8. That¦s why the gankstyle is highly favorised with this patch and be sure i will use the simple concept of pure brutal gankfleets instead of wasting my time with EW-ships ccordination. I dont know why people do not understand that 10 Scorpions will have problems to jam 10 enemy ships - it may be lack of combat experience. In theory its easy:"1 Scorp jams each 1 enemy"...but Tranquillity is not theory...if you want to jam 10 enemys you need a lot of time to coordinate the usage of each single EW-item.
Garia666	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:50:00 - [76] Edited by: Garia666 on 14/04/2005 10:52:07 I will give you just one simple answer on your question. Its all about the moneh! Lets do the math You now need more skilss MORE skills means MORE time = More MOneh !! = nice car + wife You realy think CCP gives a .... about what you think. ?
Dan Grobag	Posted - 2005.04.14 11:45:00 - [77] btw i sold my scorp and bought an armageddon ^^
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.04.14 11:55:00 - [78] Sun Ra: More ingame skills are good. But don't forget when it came to jamming player skills was what counted. Target management, coordination, etc etc. Gabriel: seems you need to re check the possible optimal range of a say a level 4 BS, level 4 Long Range Jamming level Racial ECM II fitted Scorp vs a Track + Dam boosted Apoc. Pain is meant to be felt
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:01:00 - [79] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 14/04/2005 13:03:22 Originally by: Lifewire To answer Gabriel Karade: Sisi testing and Tranquilitys battles are 2 different things. I did not say that the Scorpion was totally nerfed. The coordination of EW was changed, though. A single Scorpion is pretty usefull - no doubt. But several EW ships will have big problems coordinating the EW since items now work luck based. The more ships in a battle use EW the more coordination is needed. Once 4-5 EW ships work teamspeak will be full of "i failed jamming XY" or "i also jammed him - $hit". This is not Sisi, this is Tranquility. Coordinating several EW ships with luck based items and do this again after each cicle is not possible (in time). Coordinating gunships meanwhile is very easy: call 2 targets and all players lock fast, then all press F1-F8. That¦s why the gankstyle is highly favorised with this patch and be sure i will use the simple concept of pure brutal gankfleets instead of wasting my time with EW-ships ccordination. I dont know why people do not understand that 10 Scorpions will have problems to jam 10 enemy ships - it may be lack of combat experience. In theory its easy:"1 Scorp jams each 1 enemy"...but Tranquillity is not theory...if you want to jam 10 enemys you need a lot of time to coordinate the usage of each single EW-item. I'm still not seeing how this patch will increased the difficulty and degree of coordination required to that pre-patch. I'm am not saying it isnt difficult or increasingly difficult to coordinate with increasing numbers of EW ships; I take issue with your assertion that it will be more difficult than previously. You refer to 'luck-based' ECM being the reason, but this implies its a 50/50 flip of a coin as to a successful jam or not. It isnt, with multiple jammers, particulary racial jammers the averages are very much on your side (~75% with two racial jammers, ~88% with 3 racial jammers, ~94% with 4 racial jammers), still Enough to coordinate your jamming (coordination that would be made easier by the use specific jammer-setup Scorpions anyway, e.g Scorp 1: Radar/Ladar, Scorp 2: Magnetometric/Gravimetric e.t.c). Previously you had to have intense coordination between EW pilots to prevent 'doubling up' of jamming on the same targets. Are you saying that is now a more likely occurance, and if so, how does the new ECM system make this occurance more likely? I'm sure we will see EW setup's and tactics adapting to these changes over the next weeks. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:15:00 - [80] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Gabriel: seems you need to re check the possible optimal range of a say a level 4 BS, level 4 Long Range Jamming level Racial ECM II fitted Scorp vs a Track + Dam boosted Apoc. 106km optimal, 38km falloff with all skills at lvl IV. But then the Scorpion/EW bonus is definitly worth training up to V as you get nearly an additional 16km optimal, 3km falloff. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:41:00 - [81] Quote: I'm still not seeing how this patch will increased the difficulty and degree of coordination required to that pre-patch true
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.04.14 14:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Juan Andalusian Sun Ra: More ingame skills are good. But don't forget when it came to jamming player skills was what counted. Target management, coordination, etc etc. Gabriel: seems you need to re check the possible optimal range of a say a level 4 BS, level 4 Long Range Jamming level Racial ECM II fitted Scorp vs a Track + Dam boosted Apoc. True, ther only real problem with ecm was damps not ecm anyways =]
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.14 15:23:00 - [83] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 14/04/2005 15:32:25 Originally by: Gabriel You still have not explained how this patch (or why you think this patch) makes EW different or more difficult to coordinate in a battle. Diffrent = Chance based, no matter what the skill you can still jam. A loop hole in the system to allow low skills to jam. To also alow the wrong setups to work to jam. Maybe just off the top of my head. Before you start to argue something like "Well if you have the skills and the right setup, you jam more in combat". Which can be true but then again chance could be on your side. Not to mention not all combat lasts more than 1 min. When you're crippled. More Difficult to cordinate in battle = The only difficulties in EW is getting the new skills to level V. I have no idea what the hell Lifewire is talking about. It shouldn't be hard to pick the "Right" targets to aid "Support" to a ship on there side. Example: Lifewire being attacked by 2 battleships in a fleet war. I spot this and reduce it down to 1 battleship from 100km + to aid Lifewire. This should make fleetwars more complicated and more tactical in my opinion. Over all the EW system is not difficult at all. Just fit all "ECM-Multi's" and jam. That's it, you will jam, or you wont jam. However, if you have the support to carry atleast 4. You will always jam and the chances of failing is very slim. Just how it does on my Tempest. I hardly fail a jam. Even if it doesn't meet the ship requirements of the strength. The EW system is garbarge and needs to be switched to the old way or a better system. The new skills however, should stay. They are much needed and a really cool idea. I also think "Remote Damps" should only be a battleship mod. That's the most moronic non-skilled easy way to smack down anyone 100% of the time. Course when you get the new skills to back it. I don't understand why everytime a change happens, noone considereds the small ships. I think the EW effects us small ships too. You know how stupid it is to get beat by some rookie with the wrong "EW" setup? Just because he got lucky and hit all his chance rolls? Saddens noone else sees the unbalance in this system. Everyone just see's how it can aid them or how it doesn't affect them just yet. Trust me, when you see 2 battlecruisers lock your new battleship down, with the wrong EW setup. It might just make you see the light as I do... Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
The Scumbag	Posted - 2005.04.14 15:40:00 - [84] Edited by: The Scumbag on 14/04/2005 15:42:05 These changes sux tbh ..... Played around last night with a Apoc and a Scorp ... 100 km + Opt with Tach 2's on the Apoc and the Scorp could do jack ... could not Damped / could not Jam .. Sitting duck springs to mind ..... lets have 6 months with everyone 100+km sniping and target painting everything to death .. Yeah ...... a step forward for the game ..... not.
CaldariCitizen 9735	Posted - 2005.04.14 16:04:00 - [85] it's not a matter of "Who RuleZ" the battle field any more. it's more a matter of using your brain and being one of the "tippers". I.E. the EW ship won't carry the battle anymore but it can tip the scales in your favour. And even in a mismatched battle .. could swing it your way if you're outgunned. EW won't win it.. but it can give you the edge... and isn't that what it's supposed to do? Cloune d'Que!! zhey iss all ze Cloune d'que!!
Shin Ra	Posted - 2005.04.14 16:21:00 - [86] Well we were always called lame noobs for using ecm before, because we actually figued out how to use it well. We argued and complained to TomB on the forums before the patch. He couldn't give us a straight answer to any of our questions and went ahead without listning to us. Well EvE, you are going to wish they hadn't nerfed EW now with our new setups. ----------------------------------------- Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.14 16:23:00 - [87] Edited by: Lifewire on 14/04/2005 16:27:13 Why coordinating EW is much more difficult postpatch: Example Scorpion with 7 multis, 1 sensor booster. Prepatch jamming was receiving your EW-target from your gangleader, lock it and jam it. If multiple targets were assigned to you, then you had to popjam those. Postpatch you receive your target(s) and start to use for example 1 multi. You might waste up to 6 more multis if you do not wait for the result of this first EW-effort. It might happen that your first 3-4 multis do not jam, but you always have to wait for the result of the item. If you totally fail to jam you have to press teamspeak send key to infrom your gangleader that you failed to jam. So far so good - if you are the only EW ship in your team you simply put your EW items on locked enemy damagedealers. Now try to imagine what happens in a 20 vs 20. Several EW ships start to jam the enemy ships. It¦s not usefull to give each EW-pilot "his" target, since it is possible that he jams with his first multijammer (has 6 more to use!!!) and it¦s on the other hand possible that he doesnt jam at all. I think teamspeak in an EW-team will be such a mess that it doesnt make sense anymore to use EW. It will happen very often that several EW-ships jam the same ship, while other damagedealers dont get jammed at all because of the chance based jamming. Meanwhile the pure gankteam with damagedealing and fastlocking gunships simply names primary after priamry and toasts 1 EW-ship after the other - is this understood now?
Grut	Posted - 2005.04.14 17:26:00 - [88] Edited by: Grut on 14/04/2005 17:26:05 10 gunships might be > then 10 ew ships but 10 gunships are << 8 gunships + 2 scorps soooo ew is more of a supporting role then offence, bit of a change in playing style but no biggy Mostly harmless
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.04.14 17:32:00 - [89] Originally by: Shin Ra Well we were always called lame noobs for using ecm before, because we actually figued out how to use it well. We argued and complained to TomB on the forums before the patch. He couldn't give us a straight answer to any of our questions and went ahead without listning to us. Well EvE, you are going to wish they hadn't nerfed EW now with our new setups. Because the old system was a POS where even though last time I fought you and had 3 Tech II backup arrays. I was still jammed with no hope of being unjammed. All battles where all about who could field the most EW.
Grut	Posted - 2005.04.14 17:37:00 - [90] Edited by: Grut on 14/04/2005 17:37:28 Originally by: Dionysus Davinci Originally by: Shin Ra Well we were always called lame noobs for using ecm before, because we actually figued out how to use it well. We argued and complained to TomB on the forums before the patch. He couldn't give us a straight answer to any of our questions and went ahead without listning to us. Well EvE, you are going to wish they hadn't nerfed EW now with our new setups. Because the old system was a POS where even though last time I fought you and had 3 Tech II backup arrays. I was still jammed with no hope of being unjammed. All battles where all about who could field the most EW. Unlike cycle jamming which lifewires on about and takes quite abit of organising & skill to use, you where jammed by damps which have been way overpowered and easy as pie to use since the start of the game. Mostly harmless
Katya Detia	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:11:00 - [91] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 12/04/2005 22:29:43 It has become a fact: ECM was "patched". I played roundabout 5000 h EVE in the last 2 years - pvp only. This makes me think that devs don¦t know what they do when they "patch" something because they did not play 5000 h - they were starring at the EVE code. I don¦t have a problem to adapt to this patch - but i don¦t like that EVE PVP is reduced to pure firepower. EVE lost a lot of options in PVP with this unbalanced patch. I want to ask the devs: why should i when i setup our hunting team fit more than one ECM ship now??? Give me one reason to not fit all BS as fastlocking gunships with maximum damage mods. I also want to challange the devs to a 10 on 10. 10 devs in Scorpions vs 10 gunships. I bet we win this 10:0 because the devs Scorps will fall like flys while they coordinate their efforts to jam. The first 2 Scorps will even die before they get a lock. A gunship team only has to coordinate their primary and secondary target, while a ECM team has to coordinate the EW vs 10 targets (on teamspeak or gangchannel). The best part is that they have to re-coordinate their EW-efforts after each cicle. The ECM team has nothing: no tanking, no good damage output (crappy missiles) - they have only their ECM items and a lot of deadly targets that all need to be jammed. Only 1 or 2 not jammed gunships will hurt very fast, while the Scorps missiles (depending on comnbat range) do no or small damage. Sorry devs - but i really have to say your EW-patch is crap. The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. But calling this "EW-patch" is more than a joke. EW was just destroyed. EW might still be an option in smaller engagements (3 vs 3), but the larger the battle is, the less EW will be usefull, because coordinating EW is very difficult and this way it doesnt make sense at all to use EW. Gankships will rule. EW was a way to fight outnumbered in the past. It was no problem to attack in a 5 vs 10 if there was a good EW plan. It was possible to attack 5 BS in 5 blackbirds and it was possible to win this battle if the 5 Blackbird-pilots did no mistake. EW was a powerfull item to good organised teams that offered options to win "unwinable" combats. EW was also an options for newer players that have bad gunskills to be usefull. I want to ask: why was this "patched"??? Can a dev plz explain this??? Do devs expect PVP to be better now??? Am i wrong when i say EVE was just reduced to fastlock and pure damage dealing setups??? The problem is the dmg gunships.. Not EW. --------------------------- CEO: Black Sea Industries
Grut	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Katya Detia The problem is the dmg gunships.. Not EW. nah dmg gunships are what happens when you get a fleet together.... with a fleet of 10 gunships all their slots are working, on a tanked fleet only the targeted ships mods work. Mostly harmless
Clevinger	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:08:00 - [93] If electronic warfare is going to work as guns do then what needs to be introduced are low slot mods to enhance the effectiveness of ecm modules and specialisation skills as you have with gunnery.
Killde	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:27:00 - [94] Yeah I think this is a nerf. Mainly because before no one wanted to waste a slot with a backup array or another medium with a sensor booster. Thus they got jammed (as they well should). So they come complain on the forums "ooohh i got jammed in my gankaddon! nerf it!" How bout instead we get some adeptation, actually put on some ECCM instead of catering to the large gank fest crowd?
Mongo Peck	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:43:00 - [95] Yep sniping is now the Number 1 sport ................. The EW changes Sux ... Mongo speaks !!
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:10:00 - [96] Quote: Yep sniping is now the Number 1 sport ................. The EW changes Sux ... It¦s so good to see some of the old guys with brain - gimme 5 mongo
Grut	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:43:00 - [97] Originally by: Lifewire Quote: Yep sniping is now the Number 1 sport ................. The EW changes Sux ... It¦s so good to see some of the old guys with brain - gimme 5 mongo wait until the prop changes come in /me sets teh forum blaster to maximum whine Mostly harmless
Mongo Peck	Posted - 2005.04.14 23:12:00 - [98] It just totally insane..... why a Scorpion has a maximum (with failoff) jamming / dampning range less than every sniping Battleship out their ... Currently sitting with Tach 2's @ 100 km+ means you are free to gank .. Close in a Scorpion is dead, long range it can't Jam ..... personally I think its a step backwards and apart from "unlimited sensor dampners" the previous system worked and was fun... As per normal .. just my view, agree or disagree but don't yap yap. Mongo speaks !!
Viper SF	Posted - 2005.04.14 23:30:00 - [99] Long Distance Jamming ... 10% Bonus to Optimal Range of All ECM, Remote Sensor Dampners etc etc Remote Sensor Dampner Optimum Range (without skill) = 25km Remote Sensor Dampner Optimum Range (Level 1) = 25km Remote Sensor Dampner Optimum Range (Level 2) = 25km Remote Sensor Dampner Optimum Range (Level 3) = 25km Nurf Bat, Nurf Bat
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.04.15 02:10:00 - [100] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 15/04/2005 02:17:49 I think it should always have been like it is now. You rly think having 4 multispecs on should be able to completely disable another ship's combat ability? You can go on about backups easily countering prepatch ew but if u wear 2 or 3 backups u got dominated by every ship not using ew When i tested the ew i found it to be still functional but its not the i-win module it was __ There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Matrix Aran	Posted - 2005.04.15 02:29:00 - [101] Question: How the hell does the new system take sensor strenghths into account? How the heck does the optimal and falloff affect the EW? The link in the patch notes aswered none of this, and to me it all seems to be a simple roll the dice thing, rather than you need x sensor strength to have a y % chance of doing z to a target.
SkyLander	Posted - 2005.04.15 04:27:00 - [102] It is totally chance based even tho all the devs swear that it isn't...... __________________________________________________
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.15 04:29:00 - [103] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 15/04/2005 04:48:23 Originally by: Matrix Aran Question: How the hell does the new system take sensor strenghths into account? How the heck does the optimal and falloff affect the EW? The link in the patch notes aswered none of this, and to me it all seems to be a simple roll the dice thing, rather than you need x sensor strength to have a y % chance of doing z to a target. Supposly from what I've been told and read it's like this with OP Range and Falloff. OP Range - A 100% to MARK the target before math is calculated I guess Falloff - Chance to not MARK the target. (Like damage being less and less as you further away from target) Once the "Mark" has hit the target, I'm going to assume it does the Math portion of the ECM. Then once that is taken away from the ships sensor strength whatever, it does the "Chance" portion to obviously give you that chance to jam sucessfully. Mark -> -whatever from ships strength -> Chance rolls? Something like that I assume and what i've read from other players. So to me the real problem is that chance roll hitting more than it should. Least it has for me. So the only way it would actually balance out is if I was in the "Falloff" range where I couldn't "Mark" "Hit" whatever the victim to get to the math and chance rolls period. So when you do use the "Right" ECM's, you increase your chances of totaly jamming the victim (By ships sensor strength) and you also have a chance roll incase they have ECCM or ship strength higher than you suspected. So more of the Right ECM's vs Ship = Jamming Sensor Strength of a Ship + Chance rolls Then more of the wrong ECM's vs Ship = Chance rolls only. Using the wrong ECM's or ECM's not adding up to fully jam a ship sensor would leave you to focus on only "Chance" rolls. The chance rolls do hit but don't hit as much as a right "ECM" setup would (ECM platform that totaly jams a ship's sensor strength). So yes you can jam a ship with a -4 jammer. Yet if it was a full battle, you would only jam the target 1-3 times as well not in a row. So that leaves holes of damage to be delt to you. However, this is unbalanced no matter how TomB figured it. Being a lot of fights end quickly or you are out numbered. So more "Wrong" ecm's = more chance rolls hitting. What was 1-3 times will = 3-6 times. If someone fails there next cycle, someone else might not. So when you actually do use the right ECM's. You end up having like 90%-100% jamming each cycle being you can fully jam the sensor strength as well have a chance roll just incase the victim has backup sensor strength like ECCM's ect. This is what TomB prob based it all on. Seems more like he soloed ship tested this new system than actually adding up how many wrong or 1 modual ECM's = hitting there chance rolls. Unless there is some hidden secret somewhere or he wanted ECM's to be like this fully. Either way it's unbalanced to me. Even 1-2 jams on a frigate pilot = death being our fights arn't that long to being with. So my input is to lower the chance rolls or make a chance roll based on how low the jamming is. Example : -4 strength to a 19 Strength ship = Lower Chance roll to overcome the 19 Example : -12 strength to a 19 Strength ship = Better Chance roll to overcome the 19 Example : -16 strength to a 19 Strength ship = Even Better Chance roll to overcome the 19 If anyone has something that seems to not be right on what I said, feel free to corect =) Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Golgrath	Posted - 2005.04.15 04:45:00 - [104] Originally by: Matrix Aran Question: How the hell does the new system take sensor strenghths into account? How the heck does the optimal and falloff affect the EW? The link in the patch notes aswered none of this, and to me it all seems to be a simple roll the dice thing, rather than you need x sensor strength to have a y % chance of doing z to a target. EW jamming strenth / Target ship's ECCM strength Falloff works like with turrets. So one multispectral (jamming strength 4) jamming a Raven (22 gravimetric points) has 4/22 = 18% chance of jamming him below optimal range. At optimal+falloff the chance is 9%. At optimal+(2*falloff) the chance is 0%.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.15 04:52:00 - [105] 2*falloff Is that the "-4" going down to "-2" in falloff? If so how sure are you it does less strength. I was told (above post) that's how it works. Not too sure though being why would you falloff jam =) Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Latex Mistress	Posted - 2005.04.15 06:03:00 - [106] Originally by: Lifewire The reaction on this will be massive usage of gankships, even more than these gankships allready were used in the past. Sniping setups will also be used more. I said the exact same thing the day after I read the EW change dev blog, nice to see I'm in good company. From that time on I put the Scorp away and got a nifty Mega to play with. In the mean time, I'm working my way into 425 II's and Scorp has worked its way into the (S)corp flight deck. Sad thing really, as I fancied myself as a fairly decent Scorp driver... If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.15 16:05:00 - [107] This is what happens when DEVs that do not play enough EVE change things. Who ever is the boss in CCP - the DEVs should be forced to play EVE 4 h/day and their time to change the code should be limited to another 4 h. And they should be forced to play in Syndicate
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.15 16:47:00 - [108] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 15/04/2005 16:48:02 Originally by: Lifewire This is what happens when DEVs that do not play enough EVE change things. Who ever is the boss in CCP - the DEVs should be forced to play EVE 4 h/day and their time to change the code should be limited to another 4 h. And they should be forced to play in Syndicate I'm sure they play it more than most. Maybe you should ask for someone to balance it who isn't ran off ego. =) Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.04.16 00:13:00 - [109] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 16/04/2005 00:23:25 I think people neeed to get away from the idea jamming = multi-spectral modules. If you use racial jammers you have a far superior rate success, and the range to match long-reach gunships. Another advantage is jammer-specific scorpions, simplifying who jams which targets. E.g Scorp 1: 2x Sensor Booster, 3x Magnetometric, 3x Gravimetric ->Jams Megathrons/Dominixes and Raven's/Scorpions Scorp 2: 2x Sensor Booster, 3x Radar, 3x Ladar -> Jams Tempests, Apocalypses and Armaggedons. Neither of these two are going to get confused and start jamming the same targets, With the improved overview, all you need do is check the 'selected' item bar to know its the correct ship type, except for the Apocalypses of course.. (It would be nice if they got round to fixing the BS sizes in the overview for faster identification, given all BS's are supposed to be different sizes) Sure, which each added Scorpion 'pair' you add further complexity, but by using racial jammers it has already simplyfied the process over multispectrals, and more importantly given the range to match the gunships. If you were really worried about coordination between 4 Scorpions have them soley fit one racial jammer type each, and go after as many targets as they can jam. Filling the low slots with signal amplifiers would also ensure a faster lock than any gunship too, at a pinch you could remove a sesnor booster or two if you do this and go all out for jamming capability (75% on 4 Battleships) Will this work for sure? can't say as I've not tested it, but as I said previously I'm sure over the next weeks people will experiment and find the best method for the new EW. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Goberth Ludwig	Posted - 2005.04.16 01:17:00 - [110] This issue was raised the day the first notes for EW changes for test server went out - but of course nobody cared. Well now enjoy the retarded gankafest / single multispec spam because u deserve it... Actually I personally think whats truly uber right now is sniper setups - completely immune to new EW and perfect for beating short range gank ships, also lets not forget how much they own when coupled with some of the new target painting tacklers ...
Crusher166	Posted - 2005.04.16 01:54:00 - [111] I totally agree with you Lifewire. It was fun trying to take on superior numbers while jamming them and it involved alot of skill, ie using F keys and co-ordination to cycle jam. But now that element of skill is lost and replaced by a system based on chance! Also the EM "patch" will mean there will be less engagements unless people know for sure they have superior numbers because they are all in gankships. At least with the old EM system a fleet could try jamming tactics to take on a conciderably more sizable fleet. This therefore equals less fun for everyone. The scorpion is a weak ship. Pre-patch it relied on its Ewar capabilitys or else it would drop like a stone. So, anyone flying a scorpion wants to know for sure he is jamming someone. However, now that the system is based on CHANCE it means if your jamming fails a cycle... your fk'ed. And i wont even go into the compleatly absurd map timer changes... bye bye 0.0 fighting solo or in 2-3 people squads. Dual propulsion nerf ... ewar nerf... POSs... level 4 missions... whatever next? (and oh, missiles soon as well) The trend seems to be everything that was good and FUN in this game is/has getting/been nerfed. Crusher - Sybrite Inc.
Pheole	Posted - 2005.04.16 22:57:00 - [112] all this patch was about is tweaking alliances who got the numbers to blob. id be ****ed tho as an alliance member not able to do anything with 3 times the numbers of the ew enemies engaging ;D ccp just took the last reliable thing from small corps. when small corps can jam, why cant alliances do so in blobs of 50+. Just sad how far devs think cuz all this will be is a gankfest, totally a gree with u life.
Lifewire	Posted - 2005.04.17 00:18:00 - [113] Edited by: Lifewire on 17/04/2005 00:20:26 Edited by: Lifewire on 17/04/2005 00:19:18 Our experiences with the new EW-patch so far: - in pure ganksetups only the numbers of ships count. This means if you have 5 and "they" have 7 - you will loose. Now way to change this, you will loose. - a single Scorpion in a small battle is uber. I managed to jam a group of 4 BS and even had jammers left for frigs. It was a 6 of us vs 7 enemys. Enemy had no EW and was totally wiped out. - BBs suck much. I used 6 multis on a group of enemy BS and none of the multis did work. BBs dont have the bonus on jamming strenght and so they are absolutly crap if you use multis. BBs were so nice ships earlier in game - sad. - battles where more than 2 EW ships have to coordinate their efforts to jam are a mess. Teamspeak/gangchannel absolutly problematic since the coordination of EW-items cannot be handled. What do we learn out of this: the larger the fleet the less usefull is EW. battles bigger than 5 vs 5 are hard to coordinate. Single EW-ship in smaller battles is uber and makes it possible to wipeout whole enemy team. Sniping and blobbing will increase. Small elite teams have to evade larger groups now - fighting them outnumbered is nearly impossible now. All in all EVE PVP lost and ganking is all that is left. Battles 5 vs 5 are still fun though. But if both teams have an EW-ship it¦s all chance based. No skill - it¦s luck.

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