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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Problem:
The cost of clones exponentially increases as you acquire more SP. This causes an imbalance in the game due to the following facts.
Facts
- More SP does not allow you to make ISK exponentially faster. This has far more to do with your situation/location in EVE. A lower SP player can be just as effective at making ISK in terms of skill points as a 9 year old bittervet. There is only so much specialisation available in whatever ISK making career you choose, whether it be combat or industry based. This threshold can be met very early on and does not scale with the SP to clone cost ratio at all - even though lower SP players with argue otherwise, they are just plain wrong.
[BR]
- More time subscribed to EVE does not automatically mean you are rich with a huge stash of ISK to spare. Some comparatively new players are far more wealthy than some bittervets - playing the game for longer and having more SP doesn't make you 'better'.
[BR]
- A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.
[BR]
- The higher clone cost represents the additional SP cover provided by the clone. The cost should indeed be higher, but not exponentially so. I agree with the extra risk for having more SP available, but there's no justification why one pilot's grind to replace their clone should be 10 times the length of time compare to another pilot for losing the exact same hull.
[BR]
- It makes no sense that lots of vets would prefer to use lower SP alts to do things such as frigate or T1 gangs in null simply because it isn't worth their clone expense otherwise.
[BR]
- Clone costs are a necessary ISK sink. I agree, but don't assume that bittervets hold all the ISK. It's not logical to penalise them based on this false assumption.
[BR]
- In time nobody will be able to afford clones as the exponential model means it will scale to a point where people need 500mil to replace their clone. The time will come, the change has to happen sooner or later. CCP have already eased this issue in the past, it's just time for another review is all.
[BR]
Now - I've seen previous posts on this issue go down in a ball of flames. Mainly from people who are rich enough not to care, or newer players who firmly believe that older players should face the penalty imposed by the current system for reasons above. I've seen all the arguments against this notion several times before. Fights should indeed be about risk vs reward, but let people choose the level of risk!
A nerf to the cost of clones has happened before. It is about time the situation was reviewed.
Now please, no flames, and read the points above before posting something stupid. Everyone wants more fights, so why not fix this issue and free people up to have a little more fun. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1013
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.
Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
3083
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just wondering whats with all the BR after your points...are you cold?
Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?....****.. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oh dear here we go. Please READ the post. The forums are not here for spam and abuse, they are here for constructive discussion. Very helpful start, bravo. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Casoff
424
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jurias wrote: A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.
[BR]
I feel this is the most compelling argument, but they all make sense. |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
152
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?
Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods...
So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve
There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|
Shokre O'Corwi
The Squid Squad
Slumdogs
7
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's simple. Press ALT+X and click the 'Pause' button. That way your cost will never go up again :) |
Demolishar
United Aggression
416
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
A 100M+ character can be worth 50 billion isk or more on Bazaar. These older players ARE consistently rich whether they realise it or not. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
352
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Deleted a post for trolling.
CCP Eterne | Community Representative
@CCP_Eterne |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
635
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
The choice to continue skill training comes with a cost. I don't think most 120m SP players are going to argue that this is a bad thing. |
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Vran DalEsra
Vicious Trading Company
Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
6
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
This is why we can't have nice things... |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
195
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Solution: Don't get podded. 
_______________________________________
Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?
Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods...
It can be daily in nullsec with the huge fights involving interdictors and gate bubbles everywhere. It's a lot of fun but it's silly to only make it doable for lower SP chars. Oh and try 65mil when you get to my level in your career - this was my point that many do not understand.
I'm just asking for balance - trust me this will get more people fighting in null again. So many people despise the place for this imbalance. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:Solution: Don't get podded.
Problem: it's very easy to get podded in null.
Solution: Don't PVP in null.
It just needs tweaking. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:The choice to continue skill training comes with a cost. I don't think most 120m SP players are going to argue that this is a bad thing.
I agree. I just saw a thread asking something like "What will EVE look like in ten years?". The point of this thread is to ensure that it doesn't look like 300 mil SP bittervets not wanting to PVP because of their 500mil clone price.
I agree with you mate, but the cost should not be exponential (ie doubling in price every 30mil sp or whatever). Actually maybe a 300mil SP clone would be a lot more than the 500mil I joked about in my previous paragraph... |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE
Initiative Mercenaries
422
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think a better idea might be to make clones cost 10 times as much but make them permanent. It would encourage more fighting and you don't have to worry about updating it every time you die, not that I've ever forgotten to update mine! |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:A 100M+ character can be worth 50 billion isk or more on Bazaar. These older players ARE consistently rich whether they realise it or not.
True, let's say I have a 170mil sp char worth 40bil or whatever. I could sell the char and have no worries. But that would defeat the purpose of character progression by almost starting over again - not everyone has multiple high sp chars and not everyone wants to sell them either. |
Demolishar
United Aggression
416
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
I had an interesting thought - it is possible that SP totals are going up in line with inflation so that - when adjusted for inflation - your clone prices are the same as they have always been. In fact, I think it pretty likely. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1013
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jurias wrote:Demolishar wrote:A 100M+ character can be worth 50 billion isk or more on Bazaar. These older players ARE consistently rich whether they realise it or not. True, let's say I have a 170mil sp char worth 40bil or whatever. I could sell the char and have no worries. But that would defeat the purpose of character progression by almost starting over again - not everyone has multiple high sp chars and not everyone wants to sell them either.
To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.
Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Alara IonStorm
3455
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 15:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.
No you don't, just the Clone Cost.
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Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
Demolishar wrote:I had an interesting thought - it is possible that SP totals are going up in line with inflation so that - when adjusted for inflation - your clone prices are the same as they have always been. In fact, I think it pretty likely.
Interesting point, but inflation doesn't increase the players' ability to earn ISK. I mean a 1mil bounty belt rat still gives you 1mil right? What you are saying is that everything costs more and more, and players get less for their money. This means more grind to get the same stuff - or am I missing something here? |
Demolishar
United Aggression
416
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jurias wrote:Demolishar wrote:I had an interesting thought - it is possible that SP totals are going up in line with inflation so that - when adjusted for inflation - your clone prices are the same as they have always been. In fact, I think it pretty likely. Interesting point, but inflation doesn't increase the players' ability to earn ISK. I mean a 1mil bounty belt rat still gives you 1mil right? What you are saying is that everything costs more and more, and players get less for their money. This means more grind to get the same stuff - or am I missing something here?
Actually I think you'll find that inflation is indicative of the average players ability to earn isk having increased! |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
152
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Posted - 2012.11.13 15:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jurias wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?
Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods... It can be daily in nullsec with the huge fights involving interdictors and gate bubbles everywhere. It's a lot of fun but it's silly to only make it doable for lower SP chars. Oh and try 65mil when you get to my level in your career - this was my point that many do not understand. I'm just asking for balance - trust me this will get more people fighting in null again. So many people despise the place for this imbalance.
20m ISK is what a day old newbie in a Bantam can make while mining in his 1.0 starter system for 90 minutes.
I am fairly sure that 100m SP characters can handle those costs, even when they are stupid enough to get podded twice a day. :)
Clonecosts are a non-issue for characters of all ages.
So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve
There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
|
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1013
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 16:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.
No you don't, just the Clone Cost.
If someone is concerned about their clone cost, then they will definately have other concerns.
Crimewatch 2.0: Protecting stupid people & rewarding lazy people. This hurts the smart & industrious people by making their intelligence & industry provide them with less benefit over the stupid & lazy people. ~ Ruby Porto |
Alara IonStorm
3455
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 16:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If someone is concerned about their clone cost, then they will definately have other concerns.
Such as?
What concerns does this T1 Frigate enthusiast have exactly besides Clone Costs? |
Spurty
V0LTA
Verge of Collapse
565
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Posted - 2012.11.13 16:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
really do not give a toss about the costs.
Very very low (Imagine if it was 1 isk per skill point?)
Do care that I have to go purchase it again and again and again (oops, stop getting podded!)
Just pretty annoying. I'm immortal, please set up a direct debit!
----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 16:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If someone is concerned about their clone cost, then they will definately have other concerns.
Not wanting to get personal, but a 2009 player with a little under 28mil sp according to his eveboard and belonging to an alliance who arguably lives in some of the best and safest ISK making space in the game isn't really who I had in mind. I see now why you aren't on side. Please try to consider this topic from all sides, but of course you are entitled to your view on the matter. |
Beekeeper Bob
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
289
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Posted - 2012.11.13 16:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
People just don't understand specializing anymore....It's to CCP's advantage to get you to create alts and specialize, gotta get new subs somehow...
"Paranoia is the number one killer of idiots and Republicans." |
Demolishar
United Aggression
416
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Posted - 2012.11.13 16:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Also I love how in this thread it's mostly monocle owners refuting the OP. |
Jurias
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 16:07:00 -
[30] - Quote
Spurty wrote:really do not give a toss about the costs.
Very very low (Imagine if it was 1 isk per skill point?)
Do care that I have to go purchase it again and again and again (oops, stop getting podded!)
Just pretty annoying. I'm immortal, please set up a direct debit!
Remember that some people like to actually go out and fight, which means blowing people up and getting blown up. The cost of being podded shouldn't be exponentially higher to the ratio that it currently is, is my point. Sure I could live in nullsec and make lots of isk and not try to pvp and not care. That is a possibility, but is that what we all want from our game? |
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