A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.
[BR]

Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?

Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods...

Solution: Don't get podded.

The choice to continue skill training comes with a cost. I don't think most 120m SP players are going to argue that this is a bad thing.

A 100M+ character can be worth 50 billion isk or more on Bazaar. These older players ARE consistently rich whether they realise it or not.

True, let's say I have a 170mil sp char worth 40bil or whatever. I could sell the char and have no worries. But that would defeat the purpose of character progression by almost starting over again - not everyone has multiple high sp chars and not everyone wants to sell them either.

To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.

I had an interesting thought - it is possible that SP totals are going up in line with inflation so that - when adjusted for inflation - your clone prices are the same as they have always been. In fact, I think it pretty likely.

Interesting point, but inflation doesn't increase the players' ability to earn ISK. I mean a 1mil bounty belt rat still gives you 1mil right? What you are saying is that everything costs more and more, and players get less for their money. This means more grind to get the same stuff - or am I missing something here?

It can be daily in nullsec with the huge fights involving interdictors and gate bubbles everywhere. It's a lot of fun but it's silly to only make it doable for lower SP chars. Oh and try 65mil when you get to my level in your career - this was my point that many do not understand.

I'm just asking for balance - trust me this will get more people fighting in null again. So many people despise the place for this imbalance.

No you don't, just the Clone Cost.

If someone is concerned about their clone cost, then they will definately have other concerns.

If someone is concerned about their clone cost, then they will definately have other concerns.

really do not give a toss about the costs.

Very very low (Imagine if it was 1 isk per skill point?)

Do care that I have to go purchase it again and again and again (oops, stop getting podded!)

Just pretty annoying. I'm immortal, please set up a direct debit!

Oh dear here we go. Please READ the post. The forums are not here for spam and abuse, they are here for constructive discussion. Very helpful start, bravo.

Not wanting to get personal, but a 2009 player with a little under 28mil sp according to his eveboard and belonging to an alliance who arguably lives in some of the best and safest ISK making space in the game isn't really who I had in mind. I see now why you aren't on side. Please try to consider this topic from all sides, but of course you are entitled to your view on the matter.

To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.

20m ISK is what a day old newbie in a Bantam can make while mining in his 1.0 starter system for 90 minutes.

It's 55mil, but SP isn't important. Our space is safe because we make it that way, but people still die on a regular basis. The point still stands though. If you've been playing this game for years & are worried about clone costs, then your other issue to be concerned about is how you're generating that isk. Perhaps it's time for a change.

He might not be playing the game for the isk

you've clearly never mined before, have you?

OP, stfu.

75mil SP's here, I PVP in nullsec with 500mil clones and frigates.

Yeah, but then again, that might be why i can afford to spend 20m ISK when i want to pew.


What's your point? That it's difficult to make 20m ISK?

Bottom line is that by the time clone costs are anything even close to significant, you should have figured out how to make ISK.
ISK is so easy to make for anyone over, say, 20mil SP (clones are still dirt cheap) that this should never be an issue.

Clones are a good ISK sink and are fine as is.

We shall see how this holds over time. You fail to see that a 12 year old character doesn't automatically have the isk making potential to justify 100mil per loss simply by virtue of the number of SP he has. You also fail to acknowledge that the isk sink you refer too is targeted all wrong, by assuming that only higher SP chars have all the isk. isk sinks are necessary, but this clone business is all wrong and needs to be rebalanced as it has been in the past when it was getting silly last time.

no, simply that you were wrong.

yes, isk is easy to make. no, it's not that easy.

If you've been playing for that long (which you haven't, eve isn't even 12 years old - but whatever, lets use 5 years as an example) and can't afford 100m then you've done something incredibly wrong

It amazes me how the people with very easy access to ISK simply reply that it's easy to make isk - what was that absurd figure from earlier - 20mil for mining 90 minutes in a 1 day old noobship? lol.

The point I am making is not just about the cost. It's about the imbalance and that fact that it will get worse over time. CCP already had to fix this once before but most of the people talking trash on this thread are too new to the game to remember, or realise the impact this has on players in less fortunate positions that themselves.

I know this thread is an easy place to wave your e-peen, but at least think about the arguments before you come to gain a +1 for yourself.

there's a difference between correcting incorrect information, and **** waving.

Yea clones costs do keep me from using some of my older accounts to bumble about and do fun things in but that's why I have alts.

I would like cheaper clones. But we need the isk sinks.

Yea clones costs do keep me from using some of my older accounts to bumble about and do fun things in but that's why I have alts.

I would like cheaper clones. But we need the isk sinks.

Clone costs definitely put people off anything other than blob/safe PvP.

I'm not exactly poor but if I want to go for a casual solo wander in null with some cheap crap that's lying around then I certainly don't use Othran, who costs 20mill+ a pop for clones before ship costs etc. I'll use a low-skilled alt for that and the reason is simply clone costs.

Fair enough, Othran can do a wide range of "PvP tasks" so clone cost is the price you pay to a certain extent.

However plenty of people don't have multiple accounts/characters which they can use as an alt. Plenty of people have fairly high SP characters but no PvP experience and understandably they aren't too keen on coughing up 10-20mill/pod while they learn.

It has an effect on PvP for sure.

Well clearly the isk sinks aren't working if even you aren't willing to pew pew with your more expensive clones.

The problem isn't that ISK is hard to make - it's not - it is that it takes a lot of time. For people who work, have a family, etc. this equals to maybe an hour or two of gametime, three-to-four at best. I don't know about you, but even with the absolute best skills and best ship for blowing through lvl4's and assuming mission gods are merciful with good missions - I can make about 20 million ISK an hour.
With my current skillpoints this means I have to pve 2 hours just to cover my clone cost, and additional 2-10 depending on how good implants and modules I want to use. Obviously I want maximum life expectancy so best the money can buy, ship, module and implant wise, maybe even some combat boosters. So suddenly, for an hour or two of PVP I would have had to PvE for 12-20 hours.

Now of course, I don't have an alt that could double my isk/hr through salvage, so my money making is obviously gimped. However, this is supposed to be a sandbox and therefore I should be allowed to play this game without using a "mandatory" alt.

TL;DR if we want people to PVP more we have to make money a non-issue in regards to PVP.

A 100M+ character can be worth 50 billion isk or more on Bazaar. These older players ARE consistently rich whether they realise it or not.

edit: on the flipside of isk sinks, as a higher SP player I'm almost always flying something T2/T3 which is a decent enough isk sink. Oh, not to mention the T3 SP loss.

Well clearly the isk sinks aren't working if even you aren't willing to pew pew with your more expensive clones.

The problem isn't that ISK is hard to make - it's not - it is that it takes a lot of time. For people who work, have a family, etc. this equals to maybe an hour or two of gametime, three-to-four at best. I don't know about you, but even with the absolute best skills and best ship for blowing through lvl4's and assuming mission gods are merciful with good missions - I can make about 20 million ISK an hour.
With my current skillpoints this means I have to pve 2 hours just to cover my clone cost, and additional 2-10 depending on how good implants and modules I want to use. Obviously I want maximum life expectancy so best the money can buy, ship, module and implant wise, maybe even some combat boosters. So suddenly, for an hour or two of PVP I would have had to PvE for 12-20 hours.

Now of course, I don't have an alt that could double my isk/hr through salvage, so my money making is obviously gimped. However, this is supposed to be a sandbox and therefore I should be allowed to play this game without using a "mandatory" alt.

TL;DR if we want people to PVP more we have to make money a non-issue in regards to PVP.

Problem:

The cost of clones exponentially increases as you acquire more SP. This causes an imbalance in the game due to the following facts.

Facts

• More SP does not allow you to make ISK exponentially faster. This has far more to do with your situation/location in EVE. A lower SP player can be just as effective at making ISK in terms of skill points as a 9 year old bittervet. There is only so much specialisation available in whatever ISK making career you choose, whether it be combat or industry based. This threshold can be met very early on and does not scale with the SP to clone cost ratio at all - even though lower SP players with argue otherwise, they are just plain wrong.
[BR]


• More time subscribed to EVE does not automatically mean you are rich with a huge stash of ISK to spare. Some comparatively new players are far more wealthy than some bittervets - playing the game for longer and having more SP doesn't make you 'better'.
[BR]


• A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.
[BR]


• The higher clone cost represents the additional SP cover provided by the clone. The cost should indeed be higher, but not exponentially so. I agree with the extra risk for having more SP available, but there's no justification why one pilot's grind to replace their clone should be 10 times the length of time compare to another pilot for losing the exact same hull.
[BR]


• It makes no sense that lots of vets would prefer to use lower SP alts to do things such as frigate or T1 gangs in null simply because it isn't worth their clone expense otherwise.
[BR]


• Clone costs are a necessary ISK sink. I agree, but don't assume that bittervets hold all the ISK. It's not logical to penalise them based on this false assumption.
[BR]


• In time nobody will be able to afford clones as the exponential model means it will scale to a point where people need 500mil to replace their clone. The time will come, the change has to happen sooner or later. CCP have already eased this issue in the past, it's just time for another review is all.
[BR]

Now - I've seen previous posts on this issue go down in a ball of flames. Mainly from people who are rich enough not to care, or newer players who firmly believe that older players should face the penalty imposed by the current system for reasons above. I've seen all the arguments against this notion several times before. Fights should indeed be about risk vs reward, but let people choose the level of risk!

A nerf to the cost of clones has happened before. It is about time the situation was reviewed.

Now please, no flames, and read the points above before posting something stupid. Everyone wants more fights, so why not fix this issue and free people up to have a little more fun.

Selling PLEX was designed for people like you.

why not make clone grades manufacturable?

It's an isk sink that everyone uses. The game needs more isk sinks, not less.

since when can an isk sink for one person not be an isk faucet for another...

not everyone makes ships and for those who loose them its an isk sink... and for those who make them its an isk faucet...

you still get the isk sink... but now it would allow for thoughs who want to do clone production the ability to do it...

What amazing implants does a 7 month old character have to be worried about a 65 million ISK clone?

I am going to assume you are not posting on your main due to the fact that you just bought it off the character bazaar, if you can afford to buy a character with that much skill points, then you can afford to pay for your medical clones.

It's an isk sink that everyone uses. The game needs more isk sinks, not less.

Here's an additional reason for a linear progression, rather than exponential progression, in sp cost:

Skillpoints already suffer from diminishing returns in an exponential function:
It takes exponentially more SP to gain that next level, which only provides a linear benefit (i.e. 5% more damage or what-not). As such, there is no reason to add another exponential cost to having those skill points.

Oh dear here we go. Please READ the post. The forums are not here for spam and abuse, they are here for constructive discussion. Very helpful start, bravo.

ISK sink = ISK leaves the economy (is given to NPC)

ISK faucet = ISK enters the economy (is given to players from NPCs)

The only ISK sink in manufacturable clone grades is the market tax (and broker fees in NPC stations).

ISK sink = ISK leaves the economy (is given to NPC)

ISK faucet = ISK enters the economy (is given to players from NPCs)

The only ISK sink in manufacturable clone grades is the market tax (and broker fees in NPC stations).

Custom clones are a good idea.

Making them player-manufactured is a better idea but I can see significant problems with that - specifically making them available on-demand where needed.

I'd go for the idea of a custom jumpclone - you select the subset of skills you need to use from the main medical clone and those are all that jumpclone has. The clone activation cost could be based on that subset.

I can churn through well over a thousand clones (just checked) before I'd even have to think about isk to replace them, so my comments aren't motivated by isk.

I just don't think the current system works well is all.

I fear you have a fundamental misunderstanding of general forums.

There are legitimate forums and avenues for legitimate discussion. GD is not one of them.

Tell you what, go to Jita, post this in local, then complain when no one reads it.

hell i would even like the ability to use LP to buy new clones... that would be epic for FW.

Reactivating clones manually is dumb, paying more than 10m for a clone is also dumb.

...and I agree, but this thread is about balance. If you would like to start a topic on ISK sinks I will be more than willing to contribute. Please try to remember the topic people.

Confirming i stopped flying my favourite ships and reduced my undocking by 80% after i passed the 120 mil sp. (got 138 now).

My favourite ships are frigats and i only play in 0.0. (lots of bubbles)

My expensive clone cost reduced my fun for eve. Even though its not about the isk but its the pshycological affect of losing half a GTC when i lose my pod. Ppl could claim that at that sp lever dieing doesnt cost 250 mil but i do have the right to put 2 racial skill implants in. Why dont i have the right? (reed why i have the psycological barriere).

Clone cost for 156mil sp clone: 45 mil
2 racial +4's: 38 mil
1 harwireing: 10 mil

Thats 100 mil before the ship, firgats like sabres, ect die like flies. In terms of carebearish: I need to bear 2 and a half hours to recover 1 clone. Basic math: How much fun can i have each week when i need to bear 2.5 hours each time i die.

Not that this is whiny or something i have plenty of isk but its psycological barriere thats the point. It go's up the more sp you have and i think thats wrong.

Summary for the shortsighted ppl: eacht time i fly a dictor i fly in a 180 mil (inc 0.0 cost of stuff or haul cost) destroy thats a sitting duck on bubbled gates.

You don't have to use those implants when you PvP, but I think a better idea would be for CCP to remove attribute implants entirely. The main problem people have with clone costs isn't the clone costs themselves, but that they don't want to buy new implants.

If you think this is fair, then by that logic, a new player should play 100mil for a battleship, but a vet should pay 1bil....because they have more sp, or because they have been playing longer, or because they can make isk faster, or because an isk sink is required...

This isn't a whine about not having ISK or being able to afford something. It's just silly to use a low SP alt to get around something that could be changed. Would be nice to have my combat history all on one character for instance (gasp roleplayers! lol)

Turning towards other future matters, CCP Soundwave stated that they were currently looking at medical clones, as the cost of dying for highly skilled pilots is very high and is getting in the way of PvPing GÇô flying a 500k ISK Rifter and paying 10 to 20 million ISK for a clone is not very encouraging for PvP activity. Furthermore, the skill-loss mechanism is also something that needs to be looked at as punishing forgetful people for participating in PvP is counter-intuitive. While nothing has been decided the aim is not to reduce the risk of PvPing, but to move the mechanism of spending the ISK to somewhere else GÇô such as investing the ISK in customizable clones that then give you some benefits (special mining clone, PvP clone, etc.).

In general no one of the CSM voiced concerns with this plan, as penalizing players for not remembering to buy a new clone is the wrong way to go about this.

Two step pointed out that wormhole dwellers would perhaps voice concerns regarding that plan due to the inability to switch clones in wormhole space. He also added that perhaps a GÇÿlongevityGÇÖ perk could be added to clones, meaning that the longer a person is using a clone it would get unique bonuses.

Seleene agreed with the idea of making clones simpler and cheaper at its core.

Trebor Daehdoow was also in support of simple and cheaper clones, while he emphasized a GÇÿsimpler is betterGÇÖ approach to the change.

Due to IcelandGÇÖs weather being very hot that day (above freezing), ice cream was offered to people present at the session

You get three character slots per account.

If your the fear of replacing your clone is keeping you out of PvP, it's your game that's out of balance. Not the price of cloning.

I think this argument is nothing short of pants on head ********. There is a score of issues with this method. Corp member inflation (artistically inflating war dec costs), retraining core skills, juggling assets, constantly transferring ISK back and forth, unnessisary corp management on knowing who's alts are who's. That is just to name a few.

Those whines are about alts.

Start a new thread.

Your solution is creating alts. So my post is completely relevant to this thread. Deal with it.

Having more than one character for some people is tricky to manage, not to mention using the character slots available for one account means ceasing skill training on your main, which is wasteful IMO.

This char is much older than that actually, 7 years and 3 months to be a little more exact. The time you quoted is the time it has been a member of this corporation. I've never bought or sold a character. I have played since the start of EVE and been a loyal subscriber throughout thanks.

I think that if they're terrible at or just hate making isk people should be penalised by having to fly cheap ships, not penalised by being unable to pvp because they'll lose so many sp because they cannot afford a clone

and i don't think people should have to pvp on a noob alt if they're poor

If you want to pvp or go beyond the 'safe' havens of high sec, you are going to have to learn to put your resources at risk.

The motto is, only fly what you can afford to loose.

If you can't even afford your med clone, then don't fly.

sell char in char bazaar for 50 bil and use isk to fund future clone costs

Uh, the mechanism for alts already exists. Learn to cope.

Someone said earlier that they didn't want to learn PvP on their expensive clone. The obvious and present solution is obvious and present. There is no problem.

Afraid to risk your super nifty clone learning from the ground up? Ok, start an alt.

Already used up all your slots and are afraid to risk any of them? Not sure what to tell you. Ooops?

jump clone

All my clones are expensive, even without implants. That is what you don't get. You keep thinking this is about clones with implants and it is not. I don't care about the guy who is afraid to risk his learning implants or some high grade snake set. What I am talking about is the base cost of the clone. Also CCP said a few years ago that alts was something they wish they could have done differently, but the cat is out of the bag. So they did not know how to put it back.

But you go on and keep straw-manning it up about clones with expensive implants and ignore the core argument about removing the clone upgrade costs.

My opinion:

The fact you can play EVE for 5 years and then lose all your skillpoints in one day because of a mistake is ridiculous.

Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, including your clone.

Exactly the point of the thread. You yourself will reach a time when you can't afford to even undock in your pod, ...

9 years and counting, and that's never happened.

How much longer should I wait?

PVP is competitive. You shouldn't be PVPing without HG slaves and a full set of hardwirings... unless you're in a blob alliance of course, in which case you win by default.

I propose clone costs should be increased by a factor of 10, due to the inflation that has happened since 2003.

Can't afford it? Pause training, create a new character, and now you can afford it.

PVP is competitive. You shouldn't be PVPing without HG slaves and a full set of hardwirings... unless you're in a blob alliance of course, in which case you win by default.

I propose clone costs should be increased by a factor of 10, due to the inflation that has happened since 2003.

Can't afford it? Pause training, create a new character, and now you can afford it.

So you are saying that people with 9 year old chars and 65mil+ clone prices should just start over? Or perhaps sell that char also? You don't think this is broken?

lets all try and make this as easy as possible for more people to play more often shall we and then everyone will be having more fun.

My point is 65m should not be expensive to an old player, and certainly not to somebody who wants to PVP.

I guess that's why it's not possible

OK, lose all but 900,000 skill points?

Does that make it OK for you then if you lost all your skill points tomorrow?

Of course not, so don't be pedantic. The point is theres a difference between making death something that is a hindrance and potentially making you quit the game because you forgot to click a button.

If you have a lot of skills trained to level 5 then the skill points will be removed from the highest ranked of those skills.

However, for example, if you have a rank 12 skill at level 1 and a rank 4 skill at level 5, the skill points would be removed from the rank 4 skill as you have more skill points there.

When a skill has been selected, the system deducts the skill points your character has and the amount of skill points your clone saves. It then takes 5% of those skill points away, as long as that amount doesnGÇÖt total 50% of your total skill points in that skill.

To illustrate; if you have 10.000 skill points and your clone covers 9.000, the system removes 5% off 1.000 skill points, leaving 9950 skill points.

It's bad enough that cheap ships are 99% as good as more expensive ships these days, let's not make that extend to clones too.

He's not being pedantic. When you die, you only lose 5% of the DIFFERENCE between your clone and your actual skillpoints.

I really hope that 110B listed on your evestats website is not the full extent of your wealth or you simply sound ridiculous talking in such a way.

I think it's bad that a cruiser which costs 5m is 80% as good as a battlecruiser that costs 60m. What's ridiculous about that?

It is off topic though.

Back on the actual topic. There's certainly improvements that could be made, for example adding a dialogue warning you if you're about to undock without a clone, but PVP should not be free. It's bad enough that cheap ships are 99% as good as more expensive ships these days, let's not make that extend to clones too.

So if someone has 129 million skill points and forgets to update their clone; they lose 6.4 million skill points. Great game mechanic.

Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.

That's an interesting idea Grey Stone.

Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.

Because a reduction of isk sinks is just what EVE needs.

Yeah, someone throw those poor poor players with 120m SP a bone. How could they possibly afford 20m ISK from time to time?

Seriously guys, how often do you guys lose your pods...

What would be the impact on game economy if they offered a short-term perma-clone option?

So lets' say you want to PvP for a few hours. Buy x-hour protection that clones you as often as needed for x hours from the time of purchase. I envision this an an option on top of your normal clone so you would would do it as a short-term upgrade but your existing medical clone is still available once the upgrade expires.

You still lose the ship and any implants (although it would seem dumb to wear them if you're knowingly pvping in a dangerous enough area to buy this insurance option).

Seems to me it generates another ISK-sink and encourages PvP. The increase in ship replacement might even make up for the ISK that would have been spent on more clones since the volume of PvPing might go up significantly. I'll leave pricing up to others to debate, but is there anything about this in principle that would be a problem?

No.

CCP should do the exact opposite, they should increase the clone cost.

The choice to continue skill training comes with a cost. I don't think most 120m SP players are going to argue that this is a bad thing.

Problem:

The cost of clones exponentially increases as you acquire more SP. This causes an imbalance in the game due to the following facts.

Facts

• More SP does not allow you to make ISK exponentially faster. This has far more to do with your situation/location in EVE. A lower SP player can be just as effective at making ISK in terms of skill points as a 9 year old bittervet. There is only so much specialisation available in whatever ISK making career you choose, whether it be combat or industry based. This threshold can be met very early on and does not scale with the SP to clone cost ratio at all - even though lower SP players with argue otherwise, they are just plain wrong.
As you're stating yourself, it has -far more- to do with situation/location. However your SP can improve this. For instance a miner with Mining V has 25% more yield. A combat pilot with more gunnery skills has more chance to win a fight, and makes his fights last shorter (time is money). Winning more fights equals earning more ISK due to loot plus losing less ISK...


• More time subscribed to EVE does not automatically mean you are rich with a huge stash of ISK to spare. Some comparatively new players are far more wealthy than some bittervets - playing the game for longer and having more SP doesn't make you 'better'.
Playing longer and having more SP doesn't make you 'better'? Well it should make you more experienced doing your job. Unless you've been sitting in your station until you've gotten the amount of SP you got.. But then it's more or less your own fault that you aren't as experienced as players who did not. Also having more SP does make it easier to do the same job you would be doing without these SP otherwise, as long as these SP are in cope with the career you're following. For instance would it be easier to kill an enemy with or without having gunnery V trained?


• A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.
In terms of ship/module cost... Yes they can... In terms of clone-cost... No they can't.


• The higher clone cost represents the additional SP cover provided by the clone. The cost should indeed be higher, but not exponentially so. I agree with the extra risk for having more SP available, but there's no justification why one pilot's grind to replace their clone should be 10 times the length of time compare to another pilot for losing the exact same hull.
I agree with this, even though it's not about losing the exact same hull... It's about losing a different body holding these SP and possible implants. But yeah the exponential growth is too much. But my question is, is lowering these value's the only solution to this problem?

Fights should indeed be about risk vs reward, but let people choose the level of risk!
I think this is the most interesting part of your whole post tbh... And this shouldn't only count for fights but rather for more or less everything, however that is a whole different topic. Next to that imo the reward should be bigger... One of the things I was thinking about is this:
- What about being able to loot the body of a podded pilot into your cargo, and "salvaging" them (if you have the appropriate skill) which makes it possible to loot implants. This would mean a (slight) increase of income for PvP'ers, a (slight) decrease of expenses (because implants shall become cheaper) and instead of removing an ISK-sink, it removes an ISK-generator since pre-looted implants will be recycled this way.

Problem:

The cost of clones exponentially increases as you acquire more SP. This causes an imbalance in the game due to the following facts.

Facts

• More SP does not allow you to make ISK exponentially faster. This has far more to do with your situation/location in EVE. A lower SP player can be just as effective at making ISK in terms of skill points as a 9 year old bittervet. There is only so much specialisation available in whatever ISK making career you choose, whether it be combat or industry based. This threshold can be met very early on and does not scale with the SP to clone cost ratio at all - even though lower SP players with argue otherwise, they are just plain wrong.



• More time subscribed to EVE does not automatically mean you are rich with a huge stash of ISK to spare. Some comparatively new players are far more wealthy than some bittervets - playing the game for longer and having more SP doesn't make you 'better'.



• A higher SP player cannot go and have fun in a cheap ship with way lower SP players can for the same cost. I'm sure you'd have more higher SP players bringing about more PVP in nullsec in the way of affordable PVP with more Tech 1 and smaller hulls if they weren't having to worry about the 65mil clone cost on top when they inevitably get bubbled.



• The higher clone cost represents the additional SP cover provided by the clone. The cost should indeed be higher, but not exponentially so. I agree with the extra risk for having more SP available, but there's no justification why one pilot's grind to replace their clone should be 10 times the length of time compare to another pilot for losing the exact same hull.



• It makes no sense that lots of vets would prefer to use lower SP alts to do things such as frigate or T1 gangs in null simply because it isn't worth their clone expense otherwise.



• Clone costs are a necessary ISK sink. I agree, but don't assume that bittervets hold all the ISK. It's not logical to penalise them based on this false assumption.



• In time nobody will be able to afford clones as the exponential model means it will scale to a point where people need 500mil to replace their clone. The time will come, the change has to happen sooner or later. CCP have already eased this issue in the past, it's just time for another review is all.

Now - I've seen previous posts on this issue go down in a ball of flames. Mainly from people who are rich enough not to care, or newer players who firmly believe that older players should face the penalty imposed by the current system for reasons above. I've seen all the arguments against this notion several times before. Fights should indeed be about risk vs reward, but let people choose the level of risk!

A nerf to the cost of clones has happened before. It is about time the situation was reviewed.

Now please, no flames, and read the points above before posting something stupid. Everyone wants more fights, so why not fix this issue and free people up to have a little more fun.

If CCP chooses to lower clone costs I hope they nerf insurance payouts enough to offset so that the amount of ISK sunk overall isn't reduced.

I'm for the complete removal of clone upgrade costs and complete removal of ship insurance in one swoop.

I'm for the complete removal of clone upgrade costs and complete removal of ship insurance in one swoop.

I think high clone costs are meant to encourage specialization and differentiation. If you want to be GREAT AT EVERYTHING then you pay extra. That seems reasonable to me. I like the idea that someone who planned out the perfect 92.5M (or 71M or 54.6M) SP build (and stopped training that char when the milestone was reached) is rewarded with affordable clones. It's not like this was suddenly sprung on us by CCP, either.

clone prices aren't a deterrent for highly skill-pointed players. If they are to you, then you're doing it wrong.

^^^ Yup. This reminds me of this phenomenon we have in the states where rich people complain about their taxes and expect me to give a damn. ...

Problem: it's very easy to get podded in null.

Solution: Don't PVP in null.

It just needs tweaking.

Why? EvE needs MORE Isk sinks, not less. Quit being a baddie and maybe you won't have to pay for clones!

While I do not dispute the capability of a higher sp character to make relative mountains of isk if properly motivated, I would argue that the more you play this game and the more PvE you do, be it ratting research market PI scamming or whatever, there will come a point where it all becomes boring. At this point, isk-making is no longer fun but a job, and no one likes doing a (******) job they've done for years.

To someone who only lives for pvp and prefers to live off of buffered assets and isk, there are options available: Buy plexes, sell off assets, create alts on the same account and start training them instead, or some combination of these. The problem that arises is the alt conundrum; why should I be compelled to start a new character (or buy one) that cannot do anything as well as my preferred character, but only costs 2mil/death? I understand that there need to be isk sinks in the game, and that the higher SP characters should probably hold that burden, but the people who make the most isk are typically not the people who do the dying. It does not seem like a properly targeted tax. Certainly there should be an increased cost of new clones as you gain more SP, but the numbers do get to be a bit too hefty.

To be perfectly frank if you've been playing this game for several years & are worried about clone costs, you have other issues to be concerned with.