Another quality thread brought by SFKFK.

In b4 the lock.

So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

ah i love you GCSE business students.

once your teacher has covered motivation theory, come back here and realise how amusing and incorrect you are.

ah i love you GCSE business students.

once your teacher has covered motivation theory, come back here and realise how amusing and incorrect you are.

So for AFK ice mining do you prefer the mackinaw or skiff types?

depends, ship and fittings largely depend on the length of the episode of each tv show. i like to time it so that my cargo is full at roughly the same time as the episode ends, or slightly longer if i need to grab snacks, or stuff like that.

This is the exact kind of person who I am going after in my post

Do you watch Firefly too?

depends, ship and fittings largely depend on the length of the episode of each tv show. i like to time it so that my cargo is full at roughly the same time as the episode ends, or slightly longer if i need to grab snacks, or stuff like that.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

It's the worst but it's better than making zero ISK and it comes with the equivalent effort of staying logged off.

So to talk along your line, the opportunity cost of making little ISK with zero effort is more favorable than making zero ISK with zero effort.

It's the worst but it's better than making zero ISK and it comes with the equivalent effort of staying logged off.

So to talk along your line, the opportunity cost of making little ISK with zero effort is more favorable than making zero ISK with zero effort.

Not on a macroeconomical scale, it isn't.

Devaluing professions through non-stop zero-effort resource uptake is not good for Eve.

Here's a thought: you do pay for electricity right? you could have invested an hour of effort to make far more than you made leaving your system on all day AFK mining and then saved on power.

For the unenlightened, please explain how it's worse than mining with someone at the keyboard.

Here's a thought: you do pay for electricity right? you could have invested an hour of effort to make far more than you made leaving your system on all day AFK mining and then saved on power.

Of course you're making money, I acknowledged that.

Devaluing professions through non-stop zero-effort resource uptake is not good for Eve.

incorrect assumption #2; the computer is only on in order to play eve.

in fact, if i did it your way it'd cost me more money on my bills because i'd have spent an hour playing eve and i wouldn't have got anything else done so i'd then have to spend more time with the computer on to get things finished...

I am not that much of a miner (I trade) but in any case, trading while mining justifies the electricity.

Watching a video while mining => the computer uses like 5 more watts out of 700 it's using anyway so.... who cares for those 5W?




Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.
Make it less craptastic of a mechanic and you'll magically see people willing to actually play it.

That'd be fine..

People at keyboards have limits. Limits are actually good for economies. They reinforce minimum values, rather than allowing them to sag indefinitely.

When everyone can gather resources with zero effort those resources' value sufferes. As a result, the value of the profession as a whole suffers, too.

Only when resources are finite in availability will there be no difference between a miner ATK and a bot/AFK miner.

Thanks for the great question.

Make it less craptastic of a mechanic and you'll magically see people willing to actually play it.

You're welcome! I have more:

When they're sitting at their keyboard, does it matter where their eyes are pointing?
What if they're at the keyboard but asleep?
How do wireless keyboards fit into this scheme?
What's the impact of running EVE and Firefly on the same display? While sleeping?
In what units are you measuring effort (as in "zero effort")?

Only the last question deserves any answer.

Effort is described in terms of work, or force divided by distance, to achieve it.

In this case I'm going to use Joules (J) for the unit. Nevertheless, a zero value here is equal to a zero value for any other unit of work I'm familiar with.

I hope that helps.

incorrect assumption #2; the computer is only on in order to play eve.

Incorrect assumption 2a: I turn my computer off. My computer is on when I sleep, when I'm at work, when I take my cats to the vet. The only time it's not on, is if the electricity goes off, or I go on vacation for more than a weekend.

The real problem with the opportunity cost argument is that you make the assumption that actively playing Eve to increase ISK/hour is more important to these people than whatever else they're doing at that time. It's obviously not, or they'd be actively playing EvE instead of AFKing.

Hell I know people that afk mine on one account while actively running null sec anoms on the other, thereby increasing their ISK/hour over doing each activity separately.So by actively mining, you're actually giving up the opportunity make more ISK than you could by AFK mining and doing something else more profitable.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

that situation only becomes reality when ice, and all of it's refined products are worth exactly 0 isk on the market.

that will never happen, hence there will always be afk ice miners.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

Oh, come on, it doesn't have to be zero.

If the ice blocks you pull in are only worth 10 ISK, then making 300 ISK for a half hour of AFK mining isn't worthwhile, is it?

300 ISK could be attainable by running the same anomalies you mentioned only slightly (<1%) more efficiently due to lack of multitasking distractions.

The devaluation clearly does not have to be zero, though the threshold will be different for various players/bot farms.

Oh, come on, it doesn't have to be zero.

If the ice blocks you pull in are only worth 10 ISK, then making 300 ISK for a half hour of AFK mining isn't worthwhile, is it?

300 ISK could be attainable by running the same anomalies you mentioned only slightly (<1%) more efficiently due to lack of multitasking distractions.

The devaluation clearly does not have to be zero, though the threshold will be different for various players/bot farms.

Having not looked at the changes in ice prices lately, I'd have to ask is this happening? Are we really approaching 0 at any appreciable rate to be concerned or is the argument more academic than realistic in nature at this point?

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

But we all know that miners mine themselves into poverty, they've done it since the start of EVE. They complain that they don't make enough money and ask for more yield, which causes them to make either the same or often less than they did before. They then proceed to ask for more yield again

Thanks for the article. I hope my contribution will allow your next one to be a little better informed.

Eventually you devalue the gatherable resources enough that it doesn't matter though.

Well, at some point the AFKers will devalue the resource to the point where Darth Gustav and Suddenly Forums ForumKing will either stop participating in the activity, or resort to the traditional carebear response of complaining on the forums and hoping CCP will "fix" it.

Given the last thing CCP did to "fix" mining (the introduction of the ridiculously tanked barges), I don't expect anything to be seriously done about mining in the future. I've written a blog post about my ideal changes to mining that will still allow the AFKers to ply their trade while rewarding active players.

So should I take the time to read your blog, or should you take the time to read at least one of my posts or threads?

Because I'm not doing any carebearing. Sorry.

Hm. I got 3 accounts that Ive kept PLEXed for 3 years, 2 faction BS's dead space fit, a T3, A dozen other ships and 13 bil in the wallet. And I afk mine.

What have I failed again?

You are posting in a mining thread. Even more, you are in a mining thread discussing the income of AFK ice harvesting.

I would humbly suggest that you are actively engaged in the most carebear of carebear activities.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

This seems counter intuitive to some people - if you're making money, you're winning right? WRONG.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

But we all know that miners mine themselves into poverty, they've done it since the start of EVE. They complain that they don't make enough money and ask for more yield, which causes them to make either the same or often less than they did before. They then proceed to ask for more yield again

AFK takes stupid up to 11. AFK miners are collectively mining themselves into mediocrity because "I can make teh isk while watching Kaylee on Firefly" mentality.

They may be making accounting profits but the facts are they make zero or worse economic profits. Quite literally, you'd be better of doing any other activity than AFK mining.

But since AFK miners only understand a wallet blink, they will think they're gaming the system by making money afk. But in reality they're selling themselves as short as you possibly could.

So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

I am a null zealot part-time ganker, part-time bumper who genuinely believes that the risk I add to the game provides value-added content to successful miners for their benefit as well as my enjoyment.

You are correct. But you are still posting in a thread about ice harvesting income!

Hm. I got 3 accounts that Ive kept PLEXed for 3 years, 2 faction BS's dead space fit, a T3, A dozen other ships and 13 bil in the wallet. And I afk mine.

What have I failed again?

I got all that and a capital ship in less than a year of playing, and I never afk mine. I very rarely mine in general. Sounds like all that afk mining is holding you back.

Kaylee is hot, jus' sayin'...

ah i love you GCSE business students.

once your teacher has covered motivation theory, come back here and realise how amusing and incorrect you are.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

1. Physiological needs
The definition of physiological needs is quite obvious; they are the physical requirements for human survival. If these requirements are not met, the human body cannot function properly, and will ultimately fail. Physiological needs are thought to be the most important; they should be met first. Therefore, a human lacking food, love, esteem, or safety would consider the greatest of his/her needs to be food.

2. Safety needs
With their physical needs relatively satisfied, the individual's safety needs take precedence and dominate behavior. In the absence of physical safety GÇô due to war, natural disaster, family violence, childhood abuse, etc. GÇô people may (re-)experience post-traumatic stress disorder or transgenerational trauma. In the absence of economic safety GÇô due to economic crisis and lack of work opportunities GÇô these safety needs manifest themselves in ways such as a preference for job security, grievance procedures for protecting the individual from unilateral authority, savings accounts, insurance policies, reasonable disability accommodations, etc

3. Love and belonging
After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third level of human needs is interpersonal and involves feelings of belongingness. The need is especially strong in childhood and can override the need for safety as witnessed in children who cling to abusive parents. Deficiencies within this level of Maslow's hierarchy GÇô due to hospitalism, neglect, shunning, ostracism, etc. GÇô can impact individual's ability to form and maintain emotionally significant relationships in general, such as friendship, intimacy and family

4. Esteem
All humans have a need to feel respected; this includes the need to have self-esteem and self-respect. Esteem presents the typical human desire to be accepted and valued by others. People often engage in a profession or hobby to gain recognition.

5. Self-actualization
This level of need refers to what a person's full potential is and the realization of that potential. Maslow describes this level as the desire to accomplish everything that one can, to become the most that one can be.

Cool, I've studied business studies, economics and politics and on my management and motivation module i got 97% on the exam.

Let's look at a really basic motivation model shall we?




Being an expert on motivation theory yourself you'll know Maslow's Hierarchy of needs forms a pyramid and it is generally considered that you need to accomplish one level before you move onto the next, so I have numbered these in the order that they are. Where do you think AFK miners fit?

• Physiological needs? Mining sustains their ability to play EVE so yup, got this stage.
• Safety? With the new mining barge buffs miners have been safer then ever before. So yup.
• Love and belonging? Well there is a lot of animosity towards miners, but that doen't mean they can't have friends. On the other hand how do you make friends when you're afk? I'll give afk miners the benefit of the doubt on this one.
• Esteem? No-one respects miners, so nope don't get this stage.
• Self-Actualisation? You really think AFK mining is the upper limit of your potential as an EVE player? If so I pity you.

Interesting though, turns out afk miners are rubbish at motivational theory as well as economic theory.

You need a job at CCP.

Your name would henceforth be CCP Maslow.

+1 sir.

Hey, in most other games mining is not this hideous farce we got in EvE.

Cool, I've studied business studies, economics and politics and on my management and motivation module i got 97% on the exam.

Let's look at a really basic motivation model shall we?




Being an expert on motivation theory yourself you'll know Maslow's Hierarchy of needs forms a pyramid and it is generally considered that you need to accomplish one level before you move onto the next, so I have numbered these in the order that they are. Where do you think AFK miners fit?

• Physiological needs? Mining sustains their ability to play EVE so yup, got this stage.
• Safety? With the new mining barge buffs miners have been safer then ever before. So yup.
• Love and belonging? Well there is a lot of animosity towards miners, but that doen't mean they can't have friends. On the other hand how do you make friends when you're afk? I'll give afk miners the benefit of the doubt on this one.
• Esteem? No-one respects miners, so nope don't get this stage.
• Self-Actualisation? You really think AFK mining is the upper limit of your potential as an EVE player? If so I pity you.

Interesting though, turns out afk miners are rubbish at motivational theory as well as economic theory.

You didnt mine asteroids in SWG...

considering the entire of the OP hinges on physiological needs, give or take based on how you translate this stuff to the game... you pretty much proved my point.

must admit, it's been 7 years since i've seen any of that. oh the horrible memories.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

Oh thats easy you can find it on EVE online. Just go mine in a system where James 315 is, he's the most compelling mining content CCP have added in ages

Never not double post.

Umm no the OP's point is that the more you mine the less the materialsyou mine are worth. Then you all whinge for more yield to mine even more and then you all whinge that your yield isnt enough to make money etc etc.

So actually what he's arguing is that you're not fulfilling your physiological needs by mining as in the long run it means miners will put themselves out of pocket.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

How does a Troll like this stay open for three pages, and mine get brain-wiped within five minutes?

Umm no the OP's point is that the more you mine the less the materialsyou mine are worth. Then you all whinge for more yield to mine even more and then you all whinge that your yield isnt enough to make money etc etc.

So actually what he's arguing is that you're not fulfilling your physiological needs by mining as in the long run it means miners will put themselves out of pocket.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

If he had actually mentioned motivational theory like I had he'd have also pointed out that an AFK miner is so far away from self actualisation you have to question why they are doing the mining in the first place.

Self actualization as a character or as a person trying to use a character in a game for gain with minimal effort? If the former than you have a point. If the latter then it would seem the more important part of the equation is the activity happening away from the keyboard.

Self actualisation as a player though wouldn't just be "can they mine with the minimum effort?" it would be "Can they be the very best that is physically possible for them to be?"

If you afk mine in EVE and the answer to that question is "Yes, I am the very best AFK miner I can be and thats all my potential is in this game" then I do genuinely feel sorry for you.

Self actualisation as a player though wouldn't just be "can they mine with the minimum effort?" it would be "Can they be the very best that is physically possible for them to be?"

If you afk mine in EVE and the answer to that question is "Yes, I am the very best AFK miner I can be and thats all my potential is in this game" then I do genuinely feel sorry for you.

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

You really think all those subs won't change status if mining gets an "interestingness" buff? You really think they'll be excited?

Sometimes, Vaerah, I don't see what the points of your posts are.

The only other games I ever played where harvesting was embedded in the game was Saga of Ryzom now just called Ryzom. It was an Indi game that bankrupted. The other being Perpetuum. I've said before, if people really just wanted to Mine, harvest and manufacture, Perpetuum is a good game. Sadly it's PvP premised and none happens. So you will be making bots that will never get used. It made the same mistake EVE made. It built huge frontiers and forced everyone through exact pipes to get to them so it became a game of choke point farming.

I didnt include SWG in my list because it has a unique system yet to be duplicated with the dynamic stats on static ores.

So, you still play a game made by a company that in your opinion keeps the worst mining implementation ever only because of wallet preservation?

Nice one.

Vaerah:

I have to admit I don't play a lot of games that feature mining as a "profession."

So to maximize my limited experience of other games' mining, let's look at Skyrim:

1) Go into dungeon.

2) Fight your way to some ore.

3) Harvest it for no longer than 30 seconds for a scant few GP worth of ore.

4) Leave the dungeon to either forge something or sell the refined ore.

Now what does this indicate?

In Skyrim:

1) Mining is not a profession, it's a brief activity.

2) It involves legitimate combat nearly every time.

3) Yield is low.

4) Mining logistics are time-consuming.

I'm sorry but that's all the experience I have with mining in other games.

So in Skyrim, how is mining (as an activity) "more interesting" than it is in Eve Online?

My answer would be that the risk that's involved combined with the design of immersion-by-necessity raise the arbitrary value of the goods acquired and therefore the activity as a whole.

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

I just want to be clear though, I'm interested in interesting mining content.

What would you say makes Perpetuum's mining system "interesting"?

I'm sorry what?

I play Eve to blow people up.

The size of my wallet isn't a factor.

The size of CCP's wallet preservation.

I mean, you have to think quite low of yourself if you play a game where the developers are so much hands-tied to profit that they willingly keep a bad mechanic bad for the sake of keeping more subs.

Your mode of cogitation is practically foreign to me.

Further, the game with literally the worst mining also happens to literally have the most fun PVP, so there you go.

I'm trying to bring the rest of the game up to the caliber of the PVP as a service to those who know no different.

I know, my English is self taught . If I have to write down any lengthy concepts, they quickly turn into gibber-English.




I'd like you brought the rest of the game up to PvP standards by coming where I live and eradicating 50+ barges a day.

The real stupidity is that they are missing out on all the cool stuff in the game.

The real stupidity is that there are some players who don't understand that not everyone shares their opinion of what is "cool".

Whats the opportunity cost of playing a video game when you could be out in the real world doing real world stuff.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

This seems counter intuitive to some people - if you're making money, you're winning right? WRONG.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

But we all know that miners mine themselves into poverty, they've done it since the start of EVE. They complain that they don't make enough money and ask for more yield, which causes them to make either the same or often less than they did before. They then proceed to ask for more yield again

AFK takes stupid up to 11. AFK miners are collectively mining themselves into mediocrity because "I can make teh isk while watching Kaylee on Firefly" mentality.

They may be making accounting profits but the facts are they make zero or worse economic profits. Quite literally, you'd be better of doing any other activity than AFK mining.

But since AFK miners only understand a wallet blink, they will think they're gaming the system by making money afk. But in reality they're selling themselves as short as you possibly could.

So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

I read it all in its entirety but yet all I still herd is blaaa blaa blaaa miners suck. If you want to be taken serious then post verifiable numbers from reputable sources. I donGÇÖt have any numbers of miners being profitable but I do know in hi-secI can afk ice mine on one account while running missions on the other. It seemed profitable to me.

The only other example is a miner person in gameGǪGǪChibra, I think he has a few isk.

Have not followed the entire thread.

The first assumption is wrong because the "opportunity cost" is decided when you click "enter game". Time spent in game means time not spent IRL.

So regardless of your activity, the OC is the same. Time out of your life, regardless.

Your welcome.

Yes they do. The AFK will stop reading here and flame me, but you won't

Although AFK mining will always generate an accounting profit (your ISK quantity goes up), AFK mining is one of the worst activities imaginable for making money.

This seems counter intuitive to some people - if you're making money, you're winning right? WRONG.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

But we all know that miners mine themselves into poverty, they've done it since the start of EVE. They complain that they don't make enough money and ask for more yield, which causes them to make either the same or often less than they did before. They then proceed to ask for more yield again

AFK takes stupid up to 11. AFK miners are collectively mining themselves into mediocrity because "I can make teh isk while watching Kaylee on Firefly" mentality.

They may be making accounting profits but the facts are they make zero or worse economic profits. Quite literally, you'd be better of doing any other activity than AFK mining.

But since AFK miners only understand a wallet blink, they will think they're gaming the system by making money afk. But in reality they're selling themselves as short as you possibly could.

So, AFKers, you fail economics forever.

While ice mining AFK you can read a story to your toddler.

While ice mining AFK you can do laundry.

While ice mining AFK you can watch Firefly.

Where is the opportunity cost again?

Why do people have such an aversion to automation? Without it you'd still be living in the 1800's. To automate is what makes us human and separates us from the apes.

Boring repetitive tasks like mining should be automated and the functionality to do so should be built into the game, then people would have to use their brains to work out the most efficient way to mine, and the best places to mine, not sit hunched over the PC, with brain turned off, and *click* zzz *click* *click* a billion times.

Why do people have such an aversion to automation? Without it you'd still be living in the 1800's. To automate is what makes us human and separates us from the apes.

Boring repetitive tasks like mining should be automated and the functionality to do so should be built into the game, then people would have to use their brains to work out the most efficient way to mine, and the best places to mine, not sit hunched over the PC, with brain turned off, and *click* zzz *click* *click* a billion times.

Another one of those "EVeeel Mineerz keeeling eeeve" Yawn..

this must be the zillionth one

I think gankers used to say the same thing about "Buff Hulk" threads.

Am I wrong?

yeah...the hulk got buffed after that .. Ill tell this the zillionth time..if u suspect an AFK miner... you can report that to GM instead of making this thread into another... "Minerz are evil" thread . All this hate being generated is just sad . 3 of my friends decided not to play eve just after visiting the forums...

They probably wouldn't have had the chops for Eve then.

Honestly, good for them for knowing better.

They just could not understand all the hate being thrown around for an internet space ship game. Its not something one likes to experience after a 12 hour shift... They are eve material..i can say that i should have asked them not to visit the forum..

They just could not understand all the hate being thrown around for an internet space ship game. Its not something one likes to experience after a 12 hour shift... They are eve material..i can say that i should have asked them not to visit the forum..

It's where I question motive when I see miner hate. They do the crap we don't want to do and we can't even ignore them? You can spin it any way you want, it comes down to this. Certain people don;t want certain people playing EVE and that is not a good thing. Any way you spin it.

So let me get this straight.

You don't want to do things. Other people do.

In a game.

And you're upset because you can't ignore them...

...in the context of...

...the same exact game?

So your chief complaint is that certain people (you) don't want certain people (me) to play the game?

Or do I have you and me backward? Because I want miners to play the game. I even want them to succeed.

You seem to have read that all wrong.

I've never shot a miner in my 7 years of EVE. I feel bad if I don't kill the rats orbiting a T1 barge in a belt. Even if he does seem to be AFK. I'm looking at the vitriol here on the forums. I have no issue at all ignoring Miners. Worse case scenario for me is I can buy 60 mill Abaddons and die in a fire 10 times more than I do now.

Just work our how long it takes your mackinaw to fill the cargohold really. A few clicks every 20mins to 30mins will do it, I believe.

Who needs bots anymore (besides they're forbidden tech~)

That was exactly one of the CCP points with those new exhumers. By making them a "click once every 40 mins" affair, bots become useless.

To see how important AFK mining has become, suffice to say that the AFK ices have totally tanked, while minerals (less AFK, roids deplete in few minutes) are rising. Both resources are in need at this time, both require similarly efficient setups so the only discriminator is the AFK-ness.

the mineral prices are more to do with the drone nerf rather than the barge changes.

That was quite a while ago now.

I think I've got to give this one to Vaerah. It's definitely divided by AFKness.

According to James 315, many miners aspire to be the best at mining, aka, somewhat similar to the tireless "bot".

Of course, bot-aspirant behavior is prohibited under the Code, for the good of all the mining community.

While ice mining AFK you can read a story to your toddler.

While ice mining AFK you can do laundry.

While ice mining AFK you can watch Firefly.

Where is the opportunity cost again?

Oh, the few minutes between logging in and getting your mining vessel in position.

While ice mining AFK you can court a supermodel.

Some people Ice mine when they can't devote a lot of attention to the game but are still on or near their computer IE: Work/School/Homework ect.

I've tried missions and ore mining(doable but annoying) before while doing HW, just doesn't work out as smoothly.

You are not looking at the whole picture. First of all there is benefit from flooding the markets with ores and ice, because that means prices will drop. Cheaper POS'es means cheaper Tech II stuff, cheaper research and so on so forth. Cheaper ores mean cheaper ships, the the afk miner drives down prices by not being there, it will benefit him when he is. There are also people who AFK mine for their own consumption, and that should provide some healthy numbers in the books

I'm interested in examples of other games with truly compelling mining content.

Any suggestions anybody for where I can gain this perspective of interesting mining in other games?

Not on a macroeconomical scale, it isn't.

Devaluing professions through non-stop zero-effort resource uptake is not good for Eve.

This lobbing about miners goes beyond ridiculous. It's simply a witch hunt at all cost by the biggest afk miners in eve against new players/small entities rather than real bots (botters have also all interest on making clean place for their bots at the belt)

Pathetic.

Hum, I make 300 mil/hour with my mining-accounts on Ice, while watching a movie. Ofcourse I have an eye on local, but that's hardly considered active gaming.

If I would do something else instead - I wouldn't be able to get such an income, just because I can't dualbox more than 2 accounts with efficiency.

So, I think ICE is totally worth it :D

Anyway, grinding missions or anoms/plexes is equally boring, so what's the deal with mining Ice "AFK"?

Please list your per account income, not your total. Anyone can purchase 10,000 accounts, multi-box them then claim they make 300m/hour as if it's a great return.

This does not factor the damage AFK mining does to the value of mining as a profession.

What you can earn right now is immaterial if you are clearly working toward the end goal of effortless supply.

Value = Demand / Supply.

That 300M per hour will eventually turn into 150M per hour with the same number of accounts.

Then 75M.

Then 37.5M.

Give it time and see.

Please list your per account income, not your total. Anyone can purchase 10,000 accounts, multi-box them then claim they make 300m/hour as if it's a great return.

You see, there is this really cool thing called "implicit cost" also known as opportunity cost. When you do something you give up the chance to do something else. Normally, this is par for the course and totally ok. But AFK ice mining is special.

AFK ice mining is like collecting cans on the street to cash in at an aluminum recycling plant for some nickels. The entry barrier is nonexistent, any moron can do it. This, combined with perfect information (current ice prices are known to all and the locations of ice belts are readily available) means that ice prices are as low as they can possibly be in the market.

Accurate but completely one sided close minded comment.

Given the last thing CCP did to "fix" mining (the introduction of the ridiculously tanked barges), I don't expect anything to be seriously done about mining in the future. I've written a blog post about my ideal changes to mining that will still allow the AFKers to ply their trade while rewarding active players.