We need more female gamers to even the testosterone out.

/c

Mother Jones as forwarded by Roger Ebert (of all people).

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2012/11/women-video-game-industry-twitter-1reasonwhy

Please, no trolling. This topic is an issue in EVE esp after the article the other day at mittani.com

We need more female gamers to even the testosterone out.

/c

CCP needs to hire more women to design the clothing for the NEX. Its not a sexist remark, its just true that women know what looks better when it comes to clothing. I let my girlfriend (not the inflatable one...never the 2 shall meet) pick out my clothes and never had any negative feedback.

the sheer amount of estrogen flowing here will kill any manly instincts and we can all join together and sing Kumbyah while drinking Appletinis....

I must have missed the article from Mittani...Care to link or elaborate?

After reading through the article I think it really depends on the person. Some women love the attention they get as girl gamers and have no issue with it. Some women hate it. Some women provoke the attention they get and then complain when they get it. Some women want the attention but don't get it at all.

I think the issue the article is referring to is less about how women feel in the industry and more about why there are less women than men. Problem is...they are looking down the wrong path.

I think there are fewer women in the gaming industry as devs because of several reasons. One is that there are fewer women working than men. More women are housewives and mothers staying home then there would be of men staying home while the wife works. I would suspect that game development or programming in general would be less of an appealing job to a woman than a man. Men tend to have a larger interest in technology and information systems stuff than women.

Mother Jones as forwarded by Roger Ebert (of all people).

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2012/11/women-video-game-industry-twitter-1reasonwhy

Please, no trolling. This topic is an issue in EVE esp after the article the other day at mittani.com

I'm wondering when people will realize it's 2012 and not 1952. By the way, could you link the Mittens article?

CCP needs to hire more women to design the clothing for the NEX. Its not a sexist remark, its just true that women know what looks better when it comes to clothing. I let my girlfriend (not the inflatable one...never the 2 shall meet) pick out my clothes and never had any negative feedback.

I
I think there are fewer women in the gaming industry as devs because of several reasons. One is that there are fewer women working than men. More women are housewives and mothers staying home then there would be of men staying home while the wife works. I would suspect that game development or programming in general would be less of an appealing job to a woman than a man. Men tend to have a larger interest in technology and information systems stuff than women.

Having said that, the problem cuts both ways. If the population had more or less an even 50/50 split, there would be no way that it would feel like a male locker room, because at least half the content would be female-oriented. So perhaps when it comes to EVE, female population was always low for reasons other than our male (mis)behaviour. And we behave like it's a locker room because, for all intents and purposes, it IS a male locker room.

All we need to do is have CCP dump post from GD into the game, the sheer amount of estrogen flowing here will kill any manly instincts and we can all join together and sing Kumbyah while drinking Appletinis....

Why should there even be a perception of "Male Oriented" and "Female Oriented" content. It's not 1952.

There is not one correct sentence in this entire paragraph.

That's a part of the problem. Misinformed men.

As a gay man, maybe I'm just more sympathetic to the obstacles the women face.

Not sure if oblivious to the difference between men and women or just trolling.

Note: NOT written by Mittens.

http://themittani.com/features/no-penises-allowed-eves-exclusionary-spaces

We are going to ignore the oddity of the TGoE channelGÇÖs creation being proposed by someone who is not a member of the channelGÇÖs intended demographic audience. Gå¬

I want to take a moment to point out that it should not be a internet forum or an article on a website that defines a persons gender. It should be the person themselves that defines their own gender.

I was under the impression that the chemical balance in your brain defines that.

This is like posting on a handbags and clothes and makeup forum that there aren't enough men participating. Some things are just not gender-neutral and that's the end of it.

Tbh it would be a better place if guys stopped calling other guys girls just because they say stuff on the forum that some class as whining.

There's far too much sexist crap in both real life and the virtual world that makes me ashamed of being a man.

/c

Note: NOT written by Mittens.

http://themittani.com/features/no-penises-allowed-eves-exclusionary-spaces

Profanity, pornography, and sexual references permeate the text and voice comms. These could possibly be ignored or lessened by not clicking on links, using GÇ£no chatterGÇ¥ channels for fleet operations, and ignoring GÇ£LocalGÇ¥. It is much harder to ignore the unconscious denigration demonstrated through language usage: referring to women who have sex as whores or sluts; calling people cunts or bitches; or saying something is gay. It is not just women noticing these behaviours either. A corp CEO put his money where his mouth was, offering a PLEX via his blog to anyone creating a better term than GÇ£****-cageGÇ¥ (referring to the practice of completely engulfing the area of a POS's force field, plus some space outside of it, in large mobile warp disruption bubbles) while also linking other language usage directly to low female participation.

This summer, Xenuria started a thread proposing the creation of Trans Gamers of EVE (TGoE), a channel using the WGoE pattern[3]. There is also dedicated channel for gay, lesbian, and bisexual players. If such enclave channels exist and have gated membership based on gender or sexual orientation, then it is discrimination. In the case of female-only channels, it is also sexist. Women feel forced to be what they allegedly abhor. They become sexist cows, practicing reverse discriminationGÇöthrough the creation of their own channelsGÇöon a population seemingly blissfully unaware an issue exists.

I let my girlfriend (not the inflatable one...never the 2 shall meet) pick out my clothes and never had any negative feedback.

I've found people tend to pay less attention to gender when you are consistently better at games than they are. If females want to be respected by males in video games, they should learn to become good at video games. I take any game I play very seriously and always strive to be among the best players and to be known for my skill and ability. It works for me.

I've found people tend to pay less attention to gender when you are consistently better at games than they are. If females want to be respected by males in video games, they should learn to become good at video games. I take any game I play very seriously and always strive to be among the best players and to be known for my skill and ability. It works for me.

I've found people tend to pay less attention to gender when you are consistently better at games than they are. If females want to be respected by males in video games, they should learn to become good at video games. I take any game I play very seriously and always strive to be among the best players and to be known for my skill and ability. It works for me.

Why should a woman have to be exceedingly good at something to avoid harassment and stereotyping?

Hell, go a step farther and replace "woman" with any group that's a target of harassment, if you like.

Here is an article that hit it on the head for me awhile back:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/ministry-of-love-affair.html

"One of my last memories in LAWN was sitting in my alpha Maelstrom waiting for a fleet to begin when an actual human female had the temerity to say something to the FC on the Goon comms we were on. There was a three or four second delay, and then the comms from at least 60 or 70 Goon pilots opened and what poured fourth was a chorus of monkey-like howling, grunting, and moaning that went on for at least 20 seconds. I don't care if it was meant in jest or not, it was surreal... animalistic."

Well yeah, there is that. I'd take it for granted that if a female goes on comms, she could expect that kind of reaction, especially in bigger alliance fleets. You have a fair point, females shouldn't have to shy away from going on comms because of this kind of thing happening. I guess that is a form of discrimination.

Here is an article that hit it on the head for me awhile back:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/ministry-of-love-affair.html

"One of my last memories in LAWN was sitting in my alpha Maelstrom waiting for a fleet to begin when an actual human female had the temerity to say something to the FC on the Goon comms we were on. There was a three or four second delay, and then the comms from at least 60 or 70 Goon pilots opened and what poured fourth was a chorus of monkey-like howling, grunting, and moaning that went on for at least 20 seconds. I don't care if it was meant in jest or not, it was surreal... animalistic."

I'm kinda of the position that men and women tend toward different activities. They are of course able to do both but maybe not as well.

This subject always causes butthurt and is not worth discussing as noone has reasonable opinions or arguments.

This subject always causes butthurt and is not worth discussing as noone has reasonable opinions or arguments.

Really? What's so unreasonable about requesting equality and empathy?

You blew it RIGHT there with that.

Aggressive denial of the possibility you might be wrong. In essence, THIS:



Muestereate actually made some valid points backed up with evidence and reasoning but all you do is cry and deny.

I get the feeling that you're here to cause an argument based around beliefs that you really believe are true, when in the real world, they are not. There are a lot of people like this on the internet. We usually call them trolls.

I understand the first part of your argument is known as "denial" and the second is "ad hominem".

Muestereate actually made some valid points backed up with evidence and reasoning but all you do is cry and deny.

See, you're trolling. If you could be so kind as to neatly list everything you believe is wrong, I would be more than happy to school you (as I once did on Transgender issues), unless the rest of the rational thinkers would be inclined to do so.

This subject always causes butthurt and is not worth discussing as noone has reasonable opinions or arguments.

You're assuming you're right from the start. I actually feel that there's more positive discrimination towards females in this game than negative.

We wouldn't care about a Troll's Criteria for 'reasonable' anyway...........

I've found people tend to pay less attention to gender when you are consistently better at games than they are. If females want to be respected by males in video games, they should learn to become good at video games. I take any game I play very seriously and always strive to be among the best players and to be known for my skill and ability. It works for me.

Aggressive denial of the possibility you might be wrong. In essence, THIS:



Muestereate actually made some valid points backed up with evidence and reasoning but all you do is cry and deny.

We need more female gamers to even the testosterone out.

/c

Reality check.

Women are more cutthroat and vindictive and by far the more deadly of the sex's.
The trade off is generally they are smaller in RL then men.
That disadvantage is removed in video games.

An entirely women run alliance, ummm null-sec should prey they never see one.

You're assuming you're right from the start. I actually feel that there's more positive discrimination towards females in this game than negative.

Here is an article that hit it on the head for me awhile back:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/ministry-of-love-affair.html

"One of my last memories in LAWN was sitting in my alpha Maelstrom waiting for a fleet to begin when an actual human female had the temerity to say something to the FC on the Goon comms we were on. There was a three or four second delay, and then the comms from at least 60 or 70 Goon pilots opened and what poured fourth was a chorus of monkey-like howling, grunting, and moaning that went on for at least 20 seconds. I don't care if it was meant in jest or not, it was surreal... animalistic."

So you still think that women can't do some things as well as a guy. The only thing I can think of is women (most) are not built for PowerLifting, but that's about it. And that is not necessary for survivial in society anyway.

Reasonable assumes lack of bias. I base my arguments on personal observation rather than opinions and feelings. You should try it rather than just resorting to insults and denial.

LOL, very true. I can remember being in a Bobby Atlas fleet, we had a full fleet 250 +, A female speaks up......it took a good minute or two to get the kids under control, was so sad it was funny.

The worst part is some of them could not let go of the fact a woman was there, they kept hosing comm discipline trying to make a date with the girl. She showed good humor about it, but didn't last long after that. I have no idea how many personal convos she got, but it was probably quite a bit worse than the public chatter.

You'd think a lot of Eve players have never seen a girl, much less touched one, are things really that bad out there?

I'd class this as positive discrimination. That sort of thing can easily be turned to "worship" which can then be exploited for monetary gain. Case in point that one time Garmon "fell in love" with Mintchip and gave her 190 billion isk. Would never have happened if she was a dude.

So we are back in the Middle Ages when women were 'worshipped' and put 'on a pedestal' of chivalry ? My God.

Yes, that's exactly what I infer from the above quote. And like I said, it can be exploited to the huge advantage of the woman involved! If I had that sort of opportunity handed to me I sure as hell wouldn't be complaining!

I guess this sort of thing goes both ways.

I don't think that it's because you're a gay man - it's probably just because you pay more attention. Or maybe the fact that you aren't a misogynistic dumbass stuck in the 1950s.

Though, to be fair, I don't really think most men are that misogynistic - just clueless about the fact that other people might not like being virtually harassed just because they have boobs.

I want to take a moment to point out that it should not be a internet forum or an article on a website that defines a persons gender. It should be the person themselves that defines their own gender.

Gender is not a tangible thing that you can just pick up and put in a box or on a shelf somewhere. Gender is not something easily measured, like most forums of identity it is specific to a person and part of a larger spectrum of expression.

Spectrum being the key word here.



This statement is bad m'kay.

I don't need an article telling me how I should identify. It should not be considered an "oddity" that I proposed the formation of TGoE.

Dude I've witnessed just as many women USE their gender to gain goodies in games. Schmooze with the guildmaster, start drama between two nerds, etc. So don't give me this "total victim" crap please. I find that women who want to be left alone don't go making thread posts about them being a woman.

EVE is a highly competitive game against other people. This lends itself to catering to highly male attitudes.

The issue is that highly competitive females on par with the male competitive attitudes in EVE aren't interested in video games in general. They are interested in more tangible competitive rewards (better job, better partner, better children, better athletes, etc). That can be taken as a positive aspect.

So when women get turned off from EVE, it's because boys are pretty flexible in how they get their intake of testosterone driven competition. The women that are interested in EVE are basically in the boys locker room.

I don't really see this changing, and it would require women to basically rally around and form female only organizations, just like there is a female football, female hockey, female, etc leagues.

Do we consider those sports sexist for generally not accepting women? Or vice versa, should we consider female-only sports to be sexist for not accepting male competitors?

You blew it RIGHT there with that.

So you still think that women can't do some things as well as a guy. The only thing I can think of is women (most) are not built for PowerLifting, but that's about it. And that is not necessary for survivial in society anyway.

Here is an article that hit it on the head for me awhile back:

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/ministry-of-love-affair.html

"One of my last memories in LAWN was sitting in my alpha Maelstrom waiting for a fleet to begin when an actual human female had the temerity to say something to the FC on the Goon comms we were on. There was a three or four second delay, and then the comms from at least 60 or 70 Goon pilots opened and what poured fourth was a chorus of monkey-like howling, grunting, and moaning that went on for at least 20 seconds. I don't care if it was meant in jest or not, it was surreal... animalistic."

You know I still think it's crazy that a handful of people meander into a thread, mostly about something they've never experienced, just to share an irrelevant opinion or justify something that a decent human being wouldn't be okay with. Not just this thread, any thread that doesn't agree with the straight white male privilege.

Meaning that everything's mostly okay for you, so you don't feel any empathy for those who have less or aren't as fortunate. And you'll fight tooth and nail to keep things from shifting out of your favor.

I certainly hope you're not referring to my post.
Seeing as I wasn't justifying anything.

No I'm just reflecting on my experiences as of late.

Why worry about what people do and why?

You blew it RIGHT there with that.

Are you people seriously arguing RL gender equality in an internet game...?

hell, take it back to caveman days if you want. Males will always revert to their baser instincts around female gamers and likewise, women gamers can and regularly do use their sex to obtain favours or gain advantages

Surely you agree that, in general, men and women are inclined toward different things. Sure, there will be some overlaps, but still quite a few differences. And I don't suppose you'll be surprised when I say that people tend to be better at things they are more inclined to do; because they will be more motivated to do them, possibly have more experience with them, etc.

I have reread the original quote a couple of times and that is all I get from it. I see no bias in the statements, nor do I see either men or women being singled out in any way.

Perhaps, as someone who seeks more understanding from others, you should try to offer more of the same in return. Instead, you seem to attempt to mock or ridicule any position you do not immediately agree with, without even reflecting on what was actually said. You'll get no sympathy for that. And it will definitely not help your cause.

Not denying that such a thing could have happened, I wouldn't be surprised, but my point is it's not as much of the norm as you might thing.

Please, no trolling. This topic is an issue in EVE esp after the article the other day at mittani.com

I've found people tend to pay less attention to gender when you are consistently better at games than they are. If females want to be respected by males in video games, they should learn to become good at video games. I take any game I play very seriously and always strive to be among the best players and to be known for my skill and ability. It works for me.

You know I still think it's crazy that a handful of people meander into a thread, mostly about something they've never experienced, just to share an irrelevant opinion or justify something that a decent human being wouldn't be okay with. Not just this thread, any thread that doesn't agree with the straight white male privilege.

Meaning that everything's mostly okay for you, so you don't feel any empathy for those who have less or aren't as fortunate. And you'll fight tooth and nail to keep things from shifting out of your favor.

Kinda the way the goons abhor mining or bittervets detest most WiS aspects of EVE.

Why worry about what people do and why?

Please feel free to expand unless your too close minded to discuss that is.

On the grand scale, unique individuals like different things. If we were all the same, we wouldn't reproduce and life would be boring.

Are you people seriously arguing RL gender equality in an internet game...?

What do you think the problem with this is? There can never be gender equality on the internet or any place that is relatively consequence-free to our RL-selves simply due to the fact that we are all hiding behind a bunch of avatars and aliases.

Of course all the guys would jump on a girl in EvE and ask her all kinds of inappropriate questions, because the said female would have little recourse (ignore perhaps, or if the action is persistent and malicious petition/report to GMs). Why? Because we can be anyone and anything online and this anonymity in itself changes the entire concept of our psychology and how we act towards one another.

You will find that the traditional ID - EGO - SUPEREGO hierarchy becomes irrelevant, that is to say that we tend to revert back to being guided by our more primal drives. Higher order concepts tend to be left behind and I am positive that most of us have done this one time or another and some more so than others: how often did you find yourself blowing someone up in EvE just because you wanted them to die... mercy, consideration for that person's feelings... need not apply. Same is relevant towards the relationship between players of same of different sexes. Scams, theft, trolling - most of these things would never occur to us in RL, yet we engage regularly in such practices in EvE.

Gender equality by same rights IS stuck in 1952; hell, take it back to caveman days if you want. Males will always revert to their baser instincts around female gamers and likewise, women gamers can and regularly do use their sex to obtain favours or gain advantages. Unless we are skyping this game, using RL names and RL consequences are applied to our actions, good luck in trying to affect any type of change in EvE or any online game.

Besides, the OP article deals with some serious RL issues of gender inequality in salaries of female employees in the gaming industry as well as misrepresentation of female gamers. I fail to see the relevance to EvE... did you want the HUD to be customisable to pink or something?

Anywho, threads like this tend to be so completely irrelevant and useless to argue that I am not sure why so many people even tryGǪ myself exempted, of course, as I bring wisdom to the masses.

. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.

I know plenty of women who would rather spend time at the shooting range than in a kitchen, and plenty off men who would prefer to be baking than laying bricks and mortar. There is no "line in the sand" when it comes to what sex trends towards what preferences that isn't created artificially by expectations of gender.

Whether or not is is the norm, the fact that it even happens once is appaling.

I don't disagree, but let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the CFC.

Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.

It kind of terrifies me that reporting that Sarkeesian has received multiple threats of **** and death feels like it wonGÇÖt make a significant impact on the reader. Perhaps that the internetGÇÖs more wretched areas are so commonly filled with such threats has normalised our reaction to reports of them. The key to snap out of this, and take it on board, is I think to not read about it as a thing that happened to someone else, but to imagine being the person on the receiving end GÇô to imagine being an individual who is reading person after person saying they will sexually assault or murder you.

I don't know about discrimination, it's never affected me and I've been playing online games since I was 8. Maybe I just don't feel it's a big deal or maybe I just don't put myself in a position where I'm open to it. Maybe I just take it for granted because I often make people really mad.

I'm just going to stop you right there. Much to your surprise, I think you'll find that human beings inhabit this dang new-fangled vidyagame community.

Nobody wants a damned pink HUD. And all of your stated reasons for behaviors still do not make them right.

I do not hide who or what I am behind my avatar in any way shape or form. To do so is sad and wrong.

Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.

Wishing it doesn't make it so Remiel. Unfortunately, whilst the veil of annonymity and perceived consequence free environment exists, the behaviour will perpetuate. You log-on as this other person, you wreak havoc and salvation is but a 'log-off' button away. The attraction of consequence-free in a world that is anything but is far too attractive. This is why harassment, trolling, racism and ongoing gender inequality on internet will always be rampant.

The only way to really control any of it, is to realise/accept that it is the internet, that these are just pixels and that once you switch the computer off, they have no consequence on your life.

I know that it is perhaps shocking, but I will guarantee you, that if you are able to realise this simple fact, it really no longer matters and you no longer enable, but disable abusers and harassers - which is why I am questioning the existence of this topic in the first place. Threads like this, that prove to others that they can indeed get a rise out of people is what truly fuels the ongoing propagation of the same behaviour that the thread is trying to address.

Consider the OP GÇô the myriad of responses he made since the first post had probably prompted several readers and subsequent posters to troll him. In effect he is enabling and enforcing the same type of behaviour he is trying to prevent and/or address GÇô whether consciously or not. I am sure he will vehemently disagree with this and continue reinforcing the validity of his argument, but the more people read his staunch stance, the more they will gravitate in the opposite direction proliferating what he wishes to curb.

And if you kept reading beyond that point...

...And the way certain male members of a certain American political party hate women, as we so abhorrently learned this last campaign season.

It's still just an excuse. It doesn't make the behaviour any less wrong. It doesn't make those that perpetuate the behaviour any less garbage. The medium of communication is not an excuse for poor communication.

"Just pixels" is just another excuse for crappy behaviour. It doesn't matter if you think it's "consequence free", it's still just an excuse, and crappy behaviour on the internet is still crappy behaviour.

Threads like this raise awareness of a problem. It is not the people who try to raise awareness of the problem that perpetuate the problem, it is the people who create the problem that needs to be discussed. The old adage of "don't feed the troll" only applies when the troll is actually harmless - people who create an environment of social exclusivity, even if it's "just the internet", may be getting a rise out of being discussed, but that is not why they are discussed, or why threads like this exist. IMHO, they are sick individuals, more often than not, that need help. Especially if this is what they do for their personal entertainment.

This is the problem - you think the OP is enabling, and therefore causing, people to troll him. You're wrong - the people trolling him are making a conscious choice to do so. They are the problem, not the OP. And all you are doing is perpetuating this myth that the internet suddenly makes what would normally be considered wrong something otherwise. This is absolutely not the case.

Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.

[quote=Remiel Pollard]
...it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.

...but one of us is realistic, while the other appears to be crusading a lost cause.

I gave you the only effective means of combating this issue - de-invest and realise that the current environment on the internet is such as it is.

Oh but it's a damn good excuse though. RL codes of ethics and behaviour simply do not apply on the internet in its current form, whether we like it or not. If they did, these issues wouldn't exist in the first place and the internet would be a utopia of gender equality and fairness like RL...

Oh wait...

That's the old chicken or the egg argument. Would trolls exist if there was nothing to troll? You can look at it either way but I would argue that the internet is even more devoid of acceptable social norms than RL, so any RL issue would be amplified on the internet significantly and cause trolling. Why you would want to cause that effect is beyond me. "Raising awareness"? Do it where it actually counts, which is what makes this thread even more trivial. At best this topic will spawn some trolls and then get lost in the archives of EvE Online Forums. What was the point to begin with? Spawning trolls...

I don't think the OP is enabling, I know that he is. Go ahead and count the troll responses in this thread. To play with words a bit: OP has enabled these people to make the choice to troll him. In the absence of this topic, the trolls would not have a stage or a voice. That is a simple fact.

I agree that it is a problem. I also think that it's a problem in many industries in RL, in 3rd world countries, in the Middle East... In my personal opinion, I think it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.

Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.

Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.

[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor][quote=Jayson Kassis]
If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.

What you've mentioned here is all a product of a society that has conditioned you to think this way. The same way society tells you that money is important and that status actually means something.

Perhaps we should just blame society for everything that we are and not even consider the fact that certain attributes get imprinted into our brains at child birth. The need for competition is one of the basic primitive needs that most men possess. One of the many ways we were designed to keep our population in check. Video games are the perfect outlet.

You could say basically the same thing about parents who are stuck in the past, brainwashing their children into thinking backward, more than forward. But, even though we're animals, doesn't mean we need to act like them.

This is all about fundamental rights that shouldn't be exclusive to a certain group of people, right?

That's strange....

Nice little piece of misinformation thereGÇöfemales are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?

Nope. However, harassing women for trying to powerlift, or harassing men for trying to sing or care for children most definitely WOULD be sexism, and that's what the thread is all about. Too often these conversations quickly get derailed into "WELL DERP LET ME TELL YOU HOW MEN AND WOMEN ARE ~DIFFERENT~" and almost instantly ignore the actual harassment that started the discussion in the first place.

I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. Nobody should be surprised that prepubescent males that sit at home playing video games act this way. The fact that Devs and, (wtf is a designer anyway?), ..designers act that way is hard to believe. Some.. sure, but a vast majority of them?

I don't get it. Either they're exaggerating or these people are tools; which is it?.

Nice little piece of misinformation thereGÇöfemales are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?

Err... the average male brain and the average female brain are physically different, thus, the average male and average female don't think alike. If you don't recognize and accept that differences exist, you'll just make the problem worse.

It's like mixing cars and bicycles on the road. Yes, the bicycles have the "right" to use the same roads, however, mixing two tons of steel going 60+ MPH with a few hundred pounds of flesh and aluminum going 10 MPH isn't a wise idea. The speed differential causes congestion and when something goes wrong, the bicyclist is guaranteed to lose. You need to tailor the infrastructure to handle different needs.


The real solution is environment. Women (on average) tend to work and communicate differently then men. Unless you can find a mixed group of mature professionals that can adhere to a commonly accepted workplace standard, then an all female organization (aka dev team) might be the way to go to create more women oriented games. (Which given that females are 50% of the population and that everyone is tech enabled nowadays, it is a huge, untapped market.)

The down side is that the funding (and training and publishing) is controlled by Ye Olde Male Power Structures...

Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.

[concluded]

It's affecting me, but not because I'm subject to it at the moment. This thread is horrifying.

I just can't begin to define what's wrong with it, in so many areas.

I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. Nobody should be surprised that prepubescent males that sit at home playing video games act this way. The fact that Devs and, (wtf is a designer anyway?), ..designers act that way is hard to believe. Some.. sure, but a vast majority of them?

I don't get it. Either they're exaggerating or these people are tools; which is it?

Let's just clarify: This is the domain of prepubescent males and females, (yes.. both), who don't have anything better to do than gossip, brag, play games, and act like twits.

This is why parents should demand more of their kids than sitting in front of a television. Chores, work, school, better grades, physical exercise, etiquette, social activities like family time, reading, eating at the dinner table, doing dishes, taking out the garbage, etc..

Instead, you got kids who go, "yeah, Mom, in a minute," *silently* 'when I finish this game *****.' Or, stuff a pizza pocket in their mouth and go sit in front of the TV wiping their hands on their pants while their Mom cooks a dinner they don't intend to eat. ..or Dad cooks, for those that do.


Not that I'm a parent, but I did grow up once, and not like that thankfully. Nowhere near perfect or properly raised, but not like that. Spoiled rotten little ingrates imo.

This thread is fubar.


..also, I'd just like to note, that the usual, "this thread is now about me and my issues; let me proceed to shove them in your face; give me attention," is still occurring as usual.

I believe absolutely none of this. Not even the bicycle part. I saw a completely different outcome than what you describe on the streets of San Francisco for 17 years, and you are flat wrong. I'm not even going to start on the rest of it.

And if you kept reading beyond that point, you would realise that I never discounted that human beings played this game. I provided justification why aspects of human nature are largely ignored when placed in a social medium of internet gaming. The standard codes of behaviour are simply not followed and that's a basic fact. If we were truly the same on the internet as in RL, this world would be FUBAR.




Well... actually I wanted a pink HUD... my response was a covert Pink HUD proposal to CCP.

Right and wrong on the internet is a blurry line and even less so in an internet game. If you truly follow the same code of ethics in an online internet game as you do in RL, then you are truly an outlier. However, 99.9% of other gamers will do and say things in an online game they would never dream of doing/saying in RL. True nature of immersion and escapism is a powerful drug.



Wishing it doesn't make it so Remiel. Unfortunately, whilst the veil of annonymity and perceived consequence free environment exists, the behaviour will perpetuate. You log-on as this other person, you wreak havoc and salvation is but a 'log-off' button away. The attraction of consequence-free in a world that is anything but is far too attractive. This is why harassment, trolling, racism and ongoing gender inequality on internet will always be rampant.

The only way to really control any of it, is to realise/accept that it is the internet, that these are just pixels and that once you switch the computer off, they have no consequence on your life. I know that it is perhaps shocking, but I will guarantee you, that if you are able to realise this simple fact, it really no longer matters and you no longer enable, but disable abusers and harassers - which is why I am questioning the existence of this topic in the first place. Threads like this, that prove to others that they can indeed get a rise out of people is what truly fuels the ongoing propagation of the same behaviour that the thread is trying to address.

Consider the OP GÇô the myriad of responses he made since the first post had probably prompted several readers and subsequent posters to troll him. In effect he is enabling and enforcing the same type of behaviour he is trying to prevent and/or address GÇô whether consciously or not. I am sure he will vehemently disagree with this and continue reinforcing the validity of his argument, but the more people read his staunch stance, the more they will gravitate in the opposite direction proliferating what he wishes to curb.

And yet the problem seems to lie within you. Perhaps your own conflict with how you adjust to society and relate with women. You need to look outside for your answers instead of thinking everyone thinks and feels just the way you do.

Nice little piece of misinformation thereGÇöfemales are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?

edit: oh hey, for something that hits a little closer to home, here's a #1reasonwhy tweet from our very own CCP Punkturis:

https://twitter.com/CCP_Punkturis/status/273383027151892480

If female games wasn't the biggest group of pseudointellectual emo whiners, it would be so much easier to take them serious.

There i said it!, and only the ISD/GM's can make me take it back!

If female games wasn't the biggest group of pseudointellectual emo whiners, it would be so much easier to take them serious.

There i said it!, and only the ISD/GM's can make me take it back!

Psuedointellectual?

Pot, meet kettle.

Stop harassing me because i'm illiterate, such behavior is a bannable offence, just so you know.

If female games wasn't the biggest group of pseudointellectual emo whiners, it would be so much easier to take them serious.

There i said it!, and only the ISD/GM's can make me take it back!

Harassing? You had better check the definition of harassing before you make silly accusations. While you're there, check the definition of irony, because I was merely pointing out your own. Now, I have to point out your hypocrisy as well considering the very sexist statement you made above that generalised women gamers as "pseudointellectuals" and wonder why, if my post, which was merely stating an observation made, is bannable, then why isn't yours?

As a gay man, maybe I'm just more sympathetic to the obstacles the women face.

That's so typical of you forum trolls, always pointing your finger at everyone else, and you talk about hypocrisy. I made the most relevant post in this thread, maybe even the best post this forum has seen all year, and you are just jealous.

Maybe you should check the definition of jealous.

That's like saying "as a latino I am more sympathetic to the obstacles that native american populations face".

I'm going to assume you're 12 and not a victim of the Dunning-Kruger Effect yourself, because that was either the result of a childish tantrum, a moron who truly believes what he just wrote, or a forum troll, and forum trolling IS actually bannable.

Harassing someone you assume is 12 year old and a moron, picking on the weak, well that's very mature... and that also IS actually bannable.

If female games wasn't the biggest group of pseudointellectual emo whiners, it would be so much easier to take them serious.

What exactly was it that compelled you to write something so obviously antagonistic if your aim wasn't trolling?

Because the only other options that I could think of were that you actually believe it, or you're an inexperienced or poorly-raised child. But if you have an alternative explanation, then please, I would LOVE to hear it.

Are you tearing up for being "picked on" are you? Perhaps you should have thought of that before you picked on female gamers. Does it make you feel mature to pick on "pseudointellectual emo whiners"? Do you feel like a real man now?

And that was like saying "I have no idea that the word "maybe" means the statement is merely hypothesising a possibility based on marginalised groups having the fact that they are marginalised very much in common," which if you think about it (I know it hurts, but give it a try), actually makes sense.

You must not have very good social skills, as with most who claim trolling (or those who resort to being spelling/grammer police) , you jump to a conclusion without any kind of fact.

A person can make a strong statement without "trolling", it might be that such a statement is the only way to convey the importance of the the thing being discussed.

In this case I think the poster you are replying to has a point. At some point female gamers just need to HTFU so to speak.

Despite my white woman avatar, I happen to be a black man (posting with a Brutor male would have been to cliche even for me :) . A black man playing a game where the "N" word is thrown around on comms like Darts in an English Pub. It doesn't matter to me in the least, i just chuckle and go on, but i know other "minority" gamers who have quit corps or even the game over it.

Why expect civlilty in an uncivil world (or a game about evil people lol)? I could spend time hollering at people for being racists, out I could (in-game) shoot them in the face for it. I prefer face shooting.




This demonstrates that you probably took something the poster said personally. You're not one to lecture people as you have zero abulity to discuss things rationally yourself.

That's like saying "as a latino I am more sympathetic to the obstacles that native american populations face".

The use of the word "maybe" does not allow all sorts of meaning to be injected into a statement. However I will concede the argument and acknowledge that you have won it. Maybe.

That's like saying "as a latino I am more sympathetic to the obstacles that native american populations face".

I think you need to HTFU - obviously you suck at EVE with all your 12 avatars therefore you have to resort to forum PvP to acquire what is "victory" in your mind - I assure you, there is no victory for people who are confused about their own capabilities. Your whole post demonstrates you have a personal problem with me at the moment and are chasing me around the forums now for some personal satisfaction of your hurt epeen - please stop stalking me.

Harassing someone you assume is 12 year old and a moron, picking on the weak, well that's very mature... and that also IS actually bannable.

Back on topic, it's a cold world, in-game and out, if women want respect, they should TAKE it, not wait for "men" to come to their senses and be nice about everything. Female run game companies catering to female gamers would be a start.

That's like saying "as a latino I am more sympathetic to the obstacles that native american populations face".

My epeen (and my non-e peen, which i just call "peen") are just fine lol. looks like i touched a nerve, sorry, i have bad aim, I was aiming for your heart but got a nerve instead

I have no personal problem with you, I don't know YOU. I know your type, and it's the type I don't care for. Simply correcting what i see as your glaring logical errors.

As I said in another thread, you have a tendency to project, you post in GD as much as i do, yet It is only I who am engaged in "forum pvp" lol. Did you stop to think while writing that "hey, maybe I shouldn't say that because I'm doing the exact same thing"?

Back on topic, it's a cold world, in-game and out, if women want respect, they should TAKE it, not wait for "men" to come to their senses and be nice about everything. Female run game companies catering to female gamers would be a start.

Up next: Cancer Survivors Who Game, Midgets Who Game, Men With Benign Moles Who Game.
I'm looking forward to reading the next Benjamin Zephaniah editorial at the Guardian solemnly informing me that just as his ancestors were beaten and exploited so too are Black Men Who Game.

That's right. Keep them hidden, out of the way, and seperate (YET also on a chivalrous pedestal all at the same time).

Not at all, but doing their own things (in competition with those male chauvinist d-bags who are the gaming industry) is a better solution than expecting others to change to suit them. This is the difference between success and failure imo.

Well, gee. We all now know exactly where your prejudices lie.

You are PERFECT in your hetero-white zealotry.

So you suggest a cultural self-exclusion? Who really succeeds, the people who are excluding themselves from the culture, or the chauvinists that made them feel that they had to do that in the first place?

FYI, this is the most civilised and mature post I've seen you make, even though it's in disagreement - it's ok to disagree, but if you keep doing it in a civilised and mature way like this, people will respond to you in a civilised and mature way.

Silly moo. The first people through the Eve Gate were actually Zambian!

This thread is horrifying. ...

I just can't begin to define what's wrong with it, in so many areas.

I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. ...

..also, I'd just like to note, that the usual, "this thread is now about me and my issues; let me proceed to shove them in your face; give me attention," is still occurring as usual.

I didn't really get what you were trying to say with your post - I feel like there's some sarcasm in there, but I don't get sarcasm very well, I'm autistic, so I've stayed out of it for the moment, but I sure wish you would explain your meaning here in a clear and concise way - perhaps Krixtal simply misunderstood you.

Moreover, assuming the "problems" complained about by the OP and much of this thread are real, what are the potential solutions? Find ways of encouraging more men to be more sensitive? More Women to be less sensitive? If you're not talking about potential solutions, aren't you just whining? How do you describe solutions that don't admit an underlying inequality?

How is competition self-exclusion? female owned game companies rising up to serve the female gamer market (a market under served by existing companies) is the best path forward, as opposed to the expectation that current gaming companies will change their entire nature just to suit them.

This is not to say that women in the gaming industry do not deserve the same rights as everyone else, but the gaming industry is a boys club and you can either get with that and do your own thing and show them "how to do it right".

Well, gee. We all now know exactly where your prejudices lie.

You are PERFECT in your hetero-white zealotry.

Hahah n1.

Up next: Cancer Survivors Who Game, Midgets Who Game, Men With Benign Moles Who Game.
I'm looking forward to reading the next Benjamin Zephaniah editorial at the Guardian solemnly informing me that just as his ancestors were beaten and exploited so too are Black Men Who Game.

I am surprised that this thread has not been locked yet.