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What Us Ice "Pubbies" Need to Do About "Goonswarm Shrugged"

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Luzia Breen Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 10:06:00 - [1] - Quote Honestly, I don't even know how many of us care about what is happening there in Gallente ice belt space. Well, we should care. Goonswarm is taking an extremely well-organized stab at preventing access to all Gallente ice. And they're succeeding. Yes, I'm impressed. I read their battle plan (what was public info, anyway) and it was well-thought out and masterfully executed. So, Goonswarm's great, and the rest of us "pubbies" just suck? Why? Why do we cry and wring our hands, instead of fighting back? Goons expect us to whine at CCP(who will laugh at us, since Goon is simply using area-denial strategies and not mucking with game mechanics), instead of fighting back. They hope we fight, all the while sighing at the 9,367th whiner in local who just lost their Mack because they didn't come prepared to fight for their piece of ice. I'm not even an ice miner, yet. I wanted to be, but my Mack is safely stored at the moment. I don't want it to be. I want it to be out there, mining. But I can't. Because first, I need to make sure the ice is clear of Goons, and stays clear of Goons. So, I know there are smart people out there. I want to hear your ideas about how to clear the belts and keep them clear. I'll start. I plan to use an alt and repeatedly shoot ice in my noobship w/ the ol' Civilian blaster(Gallente), getting blown up over and over again, but hopefully keeping Concord in the belt. Will this work? Does this totally suck? It's essentially what Goon is doing, yes. According to their anti-Concord strategies. If it sucks, does anyone have any better ideas, especially long-term ones? Heavily-reinforced fleets will certainly help, but keep in mind Goon will draw resources from other ice-belt systems if they need to take down a heavily-defended fleet. Hiring merc corps for defense? We need ideas, men and women. And we need to fight. Unless we all want to whine in 6 months because a Tech 2 armor hardener now costs 40m.
antigoone Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 10:31:00 - [2] - Quote Resist Goonswarm http://resist-goonsarm.over-blog.com/article-resist-goonswarm-85885336.html
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2011.10.05 10:45:00 - [3] - Quote You could just stop ice mining for a couple of weeks.
antigoone Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 10:56:00 - [4] - Quote Smabs wrote: You could just stop ice mining for a couple of weeks. No. If Goonswarm makes good money from this operation, they will do that regulary.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2011.10.05 11:03:00 - [5] - Quote Making the assumption that you're not a goon alt or anything here: Does it matter, really? Eve has dozens of different things to do and ships to fly. If mining barges are getting ganked in a region just go do something else. If certain ships become expensive just go fly something else. It seems a bit weird to get in such a fit about something that's so easily avoidable.
antigoone Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 11:20:00 - [6] - Quote Smabs wrote: Making the assumption that you're not a goon alt or anything here: Does it matter, really? Eve has dozens of different things to do and ships to fly. If mining barges are getting ganked in a region just go do something else. If certain ships become expensive just go fly something else. It seems a bit weird to get in such a fit about something that's so easily avoidable. For the challenge ! For the fun ! It's a game ! And for the isk also.
antigoone Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 11:33:00 - [7] - Quote Goonswarm can keep an ice belt clear with only one or two guys in the system because players just don't know the mechanics of the game. You can keep an ice belt clear of goons with an shiny new uncorped alt, even with a trial account. Just fire at someone in the belt with the rookie ship, then Concord will come and stay in the belt for 15 minutes to several hours (does anyone know the mechanic). He will get a new rookie ship as soon as he gets back to station. Wait for 15 minutes (outlaw tag cooldown) and restart. When the alt reaches -5 security status, destrroy him and create a new one. Read my guide.
Smabs Higher Than Everest BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2011.10.05 12:12:00 - [8] - Quote Quote: For the challenge ! For the fun ! It's a game ! And for the isk also. You know it's probably just a coincidence but that sounds a lot like vile rat for some reason. Anyway, I guess punching myself in the face as many times as I can is a challenge too. And yeah, it's a game - stop playing it the way other people want you to. Plus you can make more isk doing, well, anything really. Unless you're running bots ofc. Pretty sure that spawning concord onto a belt is an exploit but I'm not sure how much ccp actually polices that kinda stuff.
antigoone Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 12:17:00 - [9] - Quote Smabs wrote: Quote: For the challenge ! For the fun ! It's a game ! And for the isk also. You know it's probably just a coincidence but that sounds a lot like vile rat for some reason. Anyway, I guess punching myself in the face as many times as I can is a challenge too. And yeah, it's a game - stop playing it the way other people want you to. Plus you can make more isk doing, well, anything really. Unless you're running bots ofc. Pretty sure that spawning concord onto a belt is an exploit but I'm not sure how much ccp actually polices that kinda stuff. No it's not an exploit. Only surviving concord is an exploit.
Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2011.10.05 13:24:00 - [10] - Quote Smabs wrote: You could just stop ice mining for a couple of weeks. Any ice miner with 2 brain cells to rub together won't stop, with oxytope prices the way they are. antigoone wrote: Goonswarm can keep an ice belt clear with only one or two guys in the system because players just don't know the mechanics of the game. You can keep an ice belt clear of goons with an shiny new uncorped alt, even with a trial account. Goons can't take out your barge if Concord is already in the belt. If you fire at someone in the belt with the rookie ship, then Concord will come and stay in the belt for 15 minutes to several hours (by the way, does anyone know the exact mechanic ?). The alt will get a new rookie ship as soon as he gets back to station. Wait for 15 minutes (outlaw tag cooldown) and restart. When the alt reaches -5 security status, destrroy him and create a new one. Read my guide. Biomass has timer, don't bother. If your -5 noob alts spawn faction police, more help never hurts. You can automate the process with creative macro usage.
Darrow Hill Eight Bit Industries 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 13:30:00 - [11] - Quote antigoone wrote: Goons can't take out your barge if Concord is already in the belt. Having Concord in the belt won't save you from an alpha strike.
Darrow Hill Eight Bit Industries 0	Posted - 2011.10.05 13:32:00 - [12] - Quote antigoone wrote: When the alt reaches -5 security status, destrroy him and create a new one. While forcing a Concord spawn using an alt is not an exploit, recycling suicide alts most certainly is. Your advise is terrible.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 267	Posted - 2011.10.05 14:06:00 - [13] - Quote antigoone wrote: Goons can't take out your barge if Concord is already in the belt. miners who think this are my favorite, it's hilarious blasting them out of the sky sitting right next to concord
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 267	Posted - 2011.10.05 14:07:00 - [14] - Quote one second you're there completely safe from concord, the next second you're in a pod and don't even know what happened
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 267	Posted - 2011.10.05 14:11:00 - [15] - Quote antigoone wrote: Resist Goonswarm http://resist-goonsarm.over-blog.com/article-resist-goonswarm-85885336.html oh god can't stop laughing
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 267	Posted - 2011.10.05 14:11:00 - [16] - Quote resist-goonsarm
JackStraw56 Bayesian Motion Knights of Tomorrow 7	Posted - 2011.10.05 14:13:00 - [17] - Quote Recycling alts because their sec status gets too low IS considered an exploit. Not too often enforced I would say, but don't announce publicly you plan to do it.
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery Situation: Normal 56	Posted - 2011.10.05 16:32:00 - [18] - Quote antigoone wrote: Goons can't take out your barge if Concord is already in the belt lol Concord are in the belt. I warp in. No response. I target you. No response. I shoot. You die instantly. [.... 2 or 3 seconds pass....] CONCORD jams, eventually pops me. The fact you even made a web-page about this is a little special. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Tauren Tom Order of the Silver Dragons Clone Vat 1	Posted - 2011.10.05 16:47:00 - [19] - Quote 1) Don't mine ice 2) Don't buy ice from the market 3) Find another area of gallente space to call home or buck up and take it to null/low sec :P
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 5	Posted - 2011.10.05 18:37:00 - [20] - Quote A couple of thoughts.... 1.) If your going to spawn concord for protection, 1 alt isn't really enough. The goon's guide clearly states how to clear a belt of a concord spawn... The trick is, create multiple concord spawns.... (use 3 alts, and have them all gcc simultaneously). This makes clearing the belt trickier. (but not really all that hard....) 2.) If you have all these alts, why not use one to RR yourself. A scimi could easily provide cap stable reps to three mackinaws, while having a good tank itself.... It would be enough to stop most single-attacker ganks, and force them to use several BC's per ship. (note: keep the scimi moving and rep at range). An osprey, while much, much less efficient, would be a poor man's alternative. The best way to defeat an organized assault is an organized defense..... On a final note.... while the prices hurt my BO's and capital ship movement, the goons have earned a little respect from me for actually pulling this off. I consider it an awesome undertaking.... On the other hand, this is probably a grave insult to a goon, and will be hunted down and molested for using respect and goon in the same sentence (by goons and non-goons alike!)
Herping yourDerp Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 105	Posted - 2011.10.05 20:39:00 - [21] - Quote they only have so many minerals and isk, they will get bored and slip up eventually, once ice becomes worth mining people who normally wouldnt mine it will try to mine it, thus goons will have to throw more ships away. it is impossible for a group of people to continue to lock out all the systems with ice. the reward is getting higher for mining ice, eventually the tipping point will happen where ice miners from all over Eve will mine just gallente ice and try to get rich XD
Feligast GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 96	Posted - 2011.10.05 20:51:00 - [22] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: On a final note.... while the prices hurt my BO's and capital ship movement, the goons have earned a little respect from me for actually pulling this off. I consider it an awesome undertaking.... How dare you, sir!
Feligast GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 96	Posted - 2011.10.05 20:52:00 - [23] - Quote Herping yourDerp wrote: they only have so many minerals and isk, they will get bored and slip up eventually, once ice becomes worth mining people who normally wouldnt mine it will try to mine it, thus goons will have to throw more ships away. it is impossible for a group of people to continue to lock out all the systems with ice. the reward is getting higher for mining ice, eventually the tipping point will happen where ice miners from all over Eve will mine just gallente ice and try to get rich XD Which will do nothing but drive up the prices of the other topes.
Luzia Breen Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.10.05 22:05:00 - [24] - Quote Wow. Some good responses in there(thank you, antigoone and Gizznitt). I will look into taking the battle to Goon in nullsec. it's so hard taking training time from your main. :P I had some more thoughts. One, according to the Goon's own public strategy(looking at you, Feligast), Goon may rely on warping to alts that are stationed right next to a potential gank-tim. In that case, Mack/Cov/Hulk pilots, keep yourselves moving by orbiting your asteroids. Yeah, you don't move fast(70m/s?), but it takes 10-15 seconds to arrive at a warp-point, maybe more. By then, you'll be 700m away from his warp-in position. Since they're using blasters, that's a considerable distance, possibly enough to take you out of falloff. Maybe equip an T2 AB(on Macks or Hulks; don't think Covs have the cap), and leave your cargo expanders at home. That might leave you out of Goon blaster range entirely, and leave them in the unenviable position of chasing you down, giving you precious seconds. I haven't tried the above myself, and I do not see it as the ultimate fix of doom. More like one more step in protecting ourselves, and meant to be used in conjunction with other tactics. Also, recommending reading: the Wikipedia article, or any other literature, on Anti-Submarine Warfare or ASW. Goons are performing admirably as the German U-Boats. If we want to mine ice for profit, we're going to have to adapt to them, rather than hoping they go away. Also, why am I doing this? Why do I care? Why don't I just go mission, or mine Veldspar? Goon, bless their black hearts, can't necessarily keep up with the demand for 'topes by themselves, and they may not want to. I mean, Ice mining isn't as exciting as blowing stuff up, to many Goons. No 'topes means no Rorquals. No Rorquals means less efficient T1 and Cap Ship production in null/lowsec. That means they'll have to come to hisec for parts/resources. That means hisec parts/resource prices will go up. Goon stated in their own Goonswarm Shrugged article that targeting the 'topes may affect the T2 industry. Well, I for one don't want to see T2 armor hardeners jump to 3-4m a pop, or higher. So, in essence, I'm fighting because I don't want to pay more in the long run, for everything. Would all of the above happen? Maybe not. Do I want to risk it happening? Hell no. So I plan to fight. So, thank you, Feligast and your blackhearted crew for firing up the spirits of some of those silly hisec pubbies. I hope our plans work. I hope you adapt, forcing us to think and adapt ourselves. In that way, all of us become smarter, and in the end, stronger. So, don't fly safe, pubbies. Fly violently, fly crazy, fly laughing maniacally, but do not go gentle into that good night.
Luzia Breen Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.10.05 22:12:00 - [25] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: antigoone wrote: Goons can't take out your barge if Concord is already in the belt lol Concord are in the belt. I warp in. No response. I target you. No response. I shoot. You die instantly. [.... 2 or 3 seconds pass....] CONCORD jams, eventually pops me. The fact you even made a web-page about this is a little special. As an aside, keeping your barge moving may help protect against Alphapests. Since you're moving at the time of strike, the chances of a glancing shot(and your survival!) increase. Again, won't know until it's tested.
Versuvius Marii Browncoats of Persephone 12	Posted - 2011.10.05 22:41:00 - [26] - Quote Save something for Hulkageddon, ffs.
Khanh'rhh Sudden Buggery Situation: Normal 59	Posted - 2011.10.05 23:53:00 - [27] - Quote Luzia Breen wrote: As an aside, keeping your barge moving may help protect against Alphapests It doesn't. 70m/s does feck all to mitigate damage, especially so with multiple target painters applied. An alphapest, or alphapoc, will do around twice the alpha needed to pop a Mack. There's spare to play with. Quote: But they're more expensive, and far less common. Goon will probably reserve such ships for known hard targets Don't assume someone elses playstyle, and dispatch it as advice. The actual difference in cost (i.e. the ISK lost on the gank) is a lot less than you think, since insurance has a weird habit of being stuck on the ships first. It's more expensive, sure, but then they're hardly short of ISK. Put simply - you bring the tool for the job. If CONCORD are nowhere to be seen, you bring a Brutix. If CONCORD are spawned and you can't clear them, alpha the ship. Your idea that 700m is "outside of falloff" for a Brutix is a bit funny. But, you'd be forgiven for thinking it :P - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's
Luzia Breen Aliastra Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.10.06 01:29:00 - [28] - Quote Khanh'rhh wrote: Luzia Breen wrote: As an aside, keeping your barge moving may help protect against Alphapests It doesn't. 70m/s does feck all to mitigate damage, especially so with multiple target painters applied. An alphapest, or alphapoc, will do around twice the alpha needed to pop a Mack. There's spare to play with. Quote: But they're more expensive, and far less common. Goon will probably reserve such ships for known hard targets Don't assume someone elses playstyle, and dispatch it as advice. The actual difference in cost (i.e. the ISK lost on the gank) is a lot less than you think, since insurance has a weird habit of being stuck on the ships first. It's more expensive, sure, but then they're hardly short of ISK. Put simply - you bring the tool for the job. If CONCORD are nowhere to be seen, you bring a Brutix. If CONCORD are spawned and you can't clear them, alpha the ship. Your idea that 700m is "outside of falloff" for a Brutix is a bit funny. But, you'd be forgiven for thinking it :P Wasn't advising. I stated as such in my previous post. I don't even know if the tactic would work, and judging by the (much longer than anticipated) ranges on blasters, it won't. Fine. Now that that's out of the way, Khanh, since you do seem to know and had the decency to comment, do you have any actual tactics of your own to share? As to bringing the right tool, I agree totally. However, not all Goons, particularly if they're using 10-hour toons, can use an Alphapest. And, by simple skillpoint math, there won't be as many Tempest pilots as there will be Brutix's and Thoraxes. To everyone else, including trolls, keep them coming. Antigoone had some good points, if anyone wanted to read his article instead of trolling on it. Gizznitt made me think, and so did Khanh. Also, shouldn't need to be said, but some troll will flame me about it anyway, sooo.... If you have a tactic you DON'T want to share, but just want to use on some poor Goon or Mackinaw, don't. This is a forum for Carebears sharing tactics so all of us have resources to fight back with. And, most importantly, to know that there are others like us who don't want to just whine to CCP about suigankers, but want to DO something in-game about it. BTW, I'm a bit disappointed. Khanh's about the worst flamer I had so far, and he had the knowledge to back it up, and made me crunch numbers(never a bad thing). Where's all the "STFU noob? Why you noob 'rite this thread?" etc. Fly violently all...and I feel some more flames coming on.
Goose99 Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 29	Posted - 2011.10.06 02:09:00 - [29] - Quote You spawn concord in belt and mine in covetors. Unfortunately, too many people have been doing just that, prices have already fell below 800, so it's not really worth the effort anymore.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 278	Posted - 2011.10.06 02:42:00 - [30] - Quote i can't find any covetors where are they i'm going through withdrawal after I podded three miners at once in a thorax

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