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TomB
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Posted - 2005.05.04 16:35:00 -
[1]
The Shield Operation skill has been changed, it now gives -2% capacitor need for activation per skill.
A lot of ships that have been considered as shield tanking friendly will be capable of longer tanking ability, they are still not capable of same tanking per cap for ultra long tanking, but capable of taking more damage per second as always.
This change can currently be tested on the Test Server (Singularity) by people with access to the server + the skill or the ISK to buy the skill.

2004.07.06 19:30:45combatTomB strikes you critically with his Nerf Bat, pwning you for -100% everything. |

Tobias Raddick
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Posted - 2005.05.04 16:41:00 -
[2]
Fantastic; although I'm posting simply because I want to be in first, I'm also looking forward to seeing the effect this has on my Moa's combat durability.
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Soren
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Posted - 2005.05.04 16:49:00 -
[3]
Interesting... I like it...  _________________________________________________________
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.05.04 16:51:00 -
[4]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 04/05/2005 16:51:20 Good for shield tanking, any idea of when we'll see the first stats for missile change?
edit: oh wow just saw the other thread.. excuse me while i go get a towel.  _____________________________________ Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning. "Can I be a consultant for EVE II?" - WhiteDwarf |

Jim Steele
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jim Steele on 04/05/2005 17:07:43 Nice changes think i will have to train the skill beyond lvl3 now. 
Death to the Galante |

Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:09:00 -
[6]
^^ interrestting
Centuria > whoot? Centuria > you stalking me? :) -- Nafri > then I a bird pooed on my head AND ON MY MEAL -- http://www.subroc.net/teddybears/
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Philyus
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:15:00 -
[7]
And what happens to Pottsey's Passive Shield (PPS) tank now?
--------------------
I am easily confused. Leave me alone! |

Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:16:00 -
[8]
I knew there was a reason why I've got that at lvl 5. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |

Nafri
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:30:00 -
[9]
finally a reason to get more engineering SP Wanna fly with me?
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:30:00 -
[10]
Can we get a skill that increases boost amount by 5% per level?
Because, right now, armor repairers repair more per second than shield boosters, with the repair systems operation skill, and an equal amount without it. You said that shield tanks are 'capable of taking more damage per second as always', but that just isnt true. Especially as shields have weaker resistances.
You can tell me all about the shield boost amplifier, and I'll tell you that the only ships that can fit it normally are the raven, scorpion and eagle. Its not worth a midslot for anything smaller, and its too hard to fit CPU wise for the tempest.
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Gunstar Zero
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:35:00 -
[11]
Very cool idea, 2% is perhaps a little low? 3-4% would have a more appreciable effect especially on the smaller boosters without being overpowered I think.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.04 17:51:00 -
[12]
it would be nice to have that as a new skill, i like recharge rate much more  ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |

Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 18:21:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 18:22:18 Please donÆt change this. The only reason I have this skill it to passive tank and a lot of other people only have it for the same reason. Not only does it make us weaker but it now means lots of us have trained a skill all the way to level 5 and itÆs now useless.
Instead of breaking so many peopleÆs setups why not add a new skill that does -2% capacitor. What are people meant to do who relay on shield recharge? YouÆre taking away our main defence skill.
Another option is making a new skill that still gives 5% recharge per level and let people who trained Shield Operation lose that skill and more there points to the new skill. Make an agent mission swap the skill.
There has to be a better option then losing 25% shield recharge.
_________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |

Sewell
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Posted - 2005.05.04 18:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 18:22:18 Instead of breaking so many peopleÆs setups why not add a new skill that does -2% capacitor. What are people meant to do who relay on shield recharge? YouÆre taking away our main defence skill.
I really (really, really) like this idea better. Shield recharge and passive tanking are interesting features that needs boosting, not nerfage.
I'd even like to see an Advanced Shield Operation skill (rank 3), giving another 2% faster shield recharge (with Shield Ops lvl5 as req). Some love for shield relays and similar modules would also be nice.
The skill as proposed by Tomb is also cool; but please don't change the way the Shield Ops skill work right now. :(
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Artegg
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:07:00 -
[15]
I am with pottsey here even though i dont passive tank. Tomb why not introduce a new skill for this and at the same time introduce some advanced enginering skills 
Also i would like to see the skill selim mentioned 
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:07:00 -
[16]
Edited by: JoeSomebody on 04/05/2005 19:07:15
Quote: Instead of breaking so many peopleÆs setups why not add a new skill that does -2% capacitor. What are people meant to do who relay on shield recharge? YouÆre taking away our main defence skill.
... exactly my point!
Recharge rate plays huge role in shield tank (no matter passive or active) on large ships (BC/BS). Taking it away is a murder!  ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |

Alexi Borizkova
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:12:00 -
[17]
Perhaps this is an "in addition to" change...
Yeah, probably not. I dislike losing the shield recharge rate as well, but would like the boost to shield boosting efficiency... so I am split on the matter.
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Kurenin
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Selim Can we get a skill that increases boost amount by 5% per level?
Because, right now, armor repairers repair more per second than shield boosters, with the repair systems operation skill, and an equal amount without it. You said that shield tanks are 'capable of taking more damage per second as always', but that just isnt true. Especially as shields have weaker resistances.
You can tell me all about the shield boost amplifier, and I'll tell you that the only ships that can fit it normally are the raven, scorpion and eagle. Its not worth a midslot for anything smaller, and its too hard to fit CPU wise for the tempest.
You are so unbelievably wrong. ----- [22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas? [22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Inactivity wins you. |

Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:49:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 04/05/2005 19:50:22 I won't bother searching through the forum for calculations I made long ago, but:
1/The average megathron armor tank (web, scrambler, standard tanking stuff and cap relays, no MWD), had approximately the same recharge rate than the average raven (web,scrambler, shield stuff, power diags).
2/shield and armor tanking efficiency with T2 boosters/repairers and T1 stuff for the rest: shield boosting: 1.95 HP per cap armor tanking: 2 HP per cap
3/a T2 XL booster+ vanilla boost amp can boost MORE HP than 2 T2 large repairers in a given amount of time.
4/most, if not all, shield tanked ships use less cap for their weapons than most, if not all most armor tanked ships...
5/shield hardeners use more cap than armor hardeners. Combined to points 2 and 4, it give a clouded vision of which is the best tank.
With that skill, sheild boosting will be MORE SUSTAINABLE than armor tanking (with the notable exception of the Apocalypse, which is dedicaced to be a sustainable armor tank).
Unless a similar skill is given to armor tanking, this change will give a clear advantage to shield users...
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.04 19:56:00 -
[20]
Shadowsword i will not even bother arguing with your calculations for one obvious problem with your statement - resistances ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |

Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:00:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 20:05:54 öPerhaps this is an "in addition to" change...ö I just went on the test server and its not in addition to.
I just finish my testing and the new changes make shield tanking weaker. On the live server with the shield recharge skill I get 71.4 hp regen per second. On the test server with the new shield extenders and same ship layout and without the shield recharge skill I get 68.4 regen.
Other ships lose out more. If shield recharge stays the same but the new shield extenders are implanted then passive tanking will be just about perfectly balanced. Not to weak like it is now and not to powerful. So devs please considering leavening the shield recharge skill how it is.
The new shield extenders with the old recharge would give me 90.8 hp regen which is still less then a T2 shield booster which gives up to 120 hp regen.
EDIT: The average ship that is active shield tanked also loserÆs a fair amount of hp regen per second from the loss of the skill.
_________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |

Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:00:00 -
[22]
Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so...
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shadowsword Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so...
i have no ide where u got 2.5 from... 1) armor has 10% more total resistances 2) armor has waaaaayyyy better resistance distribution ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |

Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: JoeSomebody
Originally by: Shadowsword Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so...
i have no ide where u got 2.5 from... 1) armor has 10% more total resistances 2) armor has waaaaayyyy better resistance distribution
1/10% divided in 4 resistances types, that's 2.5% average resistance. 2/ waaaaaayyyy better when facing lasers, but lasers aren't the only weapon you can face. So your point is?
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Zoidberg ENB
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:16:00 -
[25]
I must agree with Pottsey. Instead of changing a skill why not introduce a new one?
Why walk when you can skip? |

JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: JoeSomebody
Originally by: Shadowsword Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so...
i have no ide where u got 2.5 from... 1) armor has 10% more total resistances 2) armor has waaaaayyyy better resistance distribution
1/10% divided in 4 resistances types, that's 2.5% average resistance. 2/ waaaaaayyyy better when facing lasers, but lasers aren't the only weapon you can face. So your point is?
lasers are most powerful and most common weapon you face, dont tell me you didnt know that. ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |

Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:25:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 20:30:46
ôWith that skill, sheild boosting will be MORE SUSTAINABLE than armor tankingö Some methods for shield boosting have always been more sustainable then amor tanking but onto active setups. The new skill will make both methods of shield tanking less sustainable then what we have now.
You need to take into account the loss form the shield recharge skill even active tank setups are going to get less regen back per second with the new changeÆs. Do active shield tank setups really want to get less HP back per second just to give an extra boost or two before running out of cap? If you already have an active setup that doesnÆt run out of cap effectively you gain nothing from the skill change but lose hp regen.
_________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |

Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: JoeSomebody lasers are most powerful and most common weapon you face, dont tell me you didnt know that.
Of course I know that, but will it still be the case in 3-4 months? Espescially if the gankageddon get a well deserved (IMHO) nerf?
You can't use that argument to discuss long-term balance...
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 20:30:46
ôWith that skill, sheild boosting will be MORE SUSTAINABLE than armor tankingö Some methods for shield boosting have always been more sustainable then amor tanking but onto active setups. The new skill will make both methods of shield tanking less sustainable then what we have now.
You need to take into account the loss form the shield recharge skill even active tank setups are going to get less regen back per second with the new changeÆs. Do active shield tank setups really want to get less HP back per second just to give an extra boost or two before running out of cap? If you already have an active setup that doesnÆt run out of cap effectively you gain nothing from the skill change but lose hp regen.
Pottsey, you're famous with your obsession for passive shield tanking, but on an active tank, the impact the skill change will have on natural recharge rate will be fairly insignifiant, I think. Even at it's peak it should be less than 0.5 HP/sec, and the tanking methods we're comparing here are more in hte order of 100-150 HP/second.
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.05.04 20:42:00 -
[30]
Excelent idea at core. But, do not take away the shield recharge bonus from the skill. Instead implement a new skill to cover this area. Passive tanking setups will be ruined by this and that removes diversity from the game.
Also its untrue that shield tanking can take more damage per second than armor tanking. Armor repairer setups actualy repair more than shield boosters. And Armor tank setups got superior resists, not only as base but also with their more effective hardeners. Also an armor tank can be sustained for much longer due to cap rechargers. Shield tankers have no module for low slots that has a similar effect to increase time it can be sustained.
Perhaps consider un-nerfing the sick cap usage on the invulnerability fields? Right now they are useless compared to their armor tank counterparts. Also consider removing the shield boost penality to the cap power relay to help with sustainability?.
another thread that discussed some of this. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=172871
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