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Amarr knight
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Posted - 2005.05.13 05:40:00 -
[151]
B4 this post i didnt know so many liked passive tank.
Any way personally i really like the idea. But to keep the passive tankers happy, make a new skill and transfer 1 of the bonus to there.
Or i think transferring the bonus to the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill is the best idea. That is the most useless skill i have ever trained.
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Ly'sol
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Posted - 2005.05.13 07:49:00 -
[152]
This isnt about keeping anyone happy. Its about having open-endedness in ship design.
Its forceing people to use one standard cookie cutter design.
I Active and Passive shield tank, both styles are very useful for different situations and I VERY MUCH ENJOY haveing the option to switch between the two of them.
Give the option of another Shield skill that will cater to the active boosters. And I doubt haveing both skills is going to make Shield tanks better than Armor tanks because at the moment, the armor tanks (Apoc) can suck up a really decent amount of damage.
But hey fellas do what you want to....its your game. I hope this is can be a topic of discussion.
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Vist the Jericho Fraction Forums
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John McCreedy
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Posted - 2005.05.13 11:23:00 -
[153]
Thank god! After training it to level 5 before realising it was utterly useless...
Make a difference
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Griseus
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Posted - 2005.05.13 15:37:00 -
[154]
Edited by: Griseus on 13/05/2005 15:49:29
 Originally by: Antic
the whole point with this skill is to make it balanced towards armor tanking wich as it currently stands can be kept going indefinately. Shield tanking wont still be able to keep the same durability as armor tanking, but it will help some.
So giving the same skill to armortankers would totaly invalidate the whole point with making such a change to start with.
1)Then shild tank runs out of his shield, he still have armor and stucture to warp out. Yes, armor tanks can run 2 repairers forever, but it needs 3-4 cap rechargers in med to run repairers and resists in low slots. and something outdamages tanking, structure runs out in seconds.
2) I never seen damage piercing shield on players, dut then you getting low on armor, damage goes to structure ... so what tactical shield manipulation needed for?? Change it's bonus to reduce cap drain on boosters.
3) And in addition why not add skill for passive armor regen ?? :D
4) Will XLarge Cap Extenders be added ??
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NPC Hunter |
FOXER
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Posted - 2005.05.13 22:20:00 -
[155]
Edited by: FOXER on 14/05/2005 17:49:50
Edited by: FOXER on 14/05/2005 17:48:30
Edited by: FOXER on 13/05/2005 22:48:44
Edited by: FOXER on 13/05/2005 22:47:23
Can we have that as new skill plz 
Armor Tank ship get use There med slot
for mods ie, t2 caps or stasis webfler
Mwd , Target painter .
raven find it verry Hard do this as it
need it med slot for shield item
Anointed 1 em ward slot-1-
Ditrigonal thermal barrier slot-2-
Heat disspatin amp slot-3-
Magnetic scattering amp Slot-4-
Shield boost amplifer Slot-5-
T2 xlarge shield Slot-6-
x5 prototype 1 engine, slot-7-
Target painter slot-8-
This how i think raven need be now
That t2 large guns are in use
8 slot plz same as scorp plzzzzzzz
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FOXER
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Posted - 2005.05.13 22:37:00 -
[156]
Hope my raven hold out bit longer in a war TomB :P
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Inspiration
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Posted - 2005.05.14 00:35:00 -
[157]
I second the thoughts about making this a seperate skill instead of a replacement. It is true many shield tanking pilots find it hard to maintain a good shield tank long enaugh due to cap restraints. But there currently already are good ways to avoid these problems if one is creative enaugh and spends a bit of ISK. For those without a new skill would certainly help a lot, even if the bonus (2%) is just tiny.
Replacing the existing bonus of 5% shield recharge with this small bonus of 2% less cap usage will do most pilots more harm then good IMHO. Sure more and heavyer boosters can be fit to compensate the loss of recharge rate, but that would hurt cap in the end, exactly the oposite the 'new' 'bonus' suggests. And without heavyer shield boosting modules, the cap will last longer, but then the effective boost is basicly nerfed. Either way, replacing the existing skill is hurding shield boosting one way or another.
A seperate skill would definatly be a bonus, all around, especialy for the smaller vessels with few module slots and tiny capacitors. Again replacing the current bonus will hurt these vessels the most, they can't fit heavyer modules, nor supply the cap to even try compensating the loss of recharge (25% at max skill).
Every way I think about it, for small or big vessels, rplacement of the current bonus will hurt shield tanking. Please make it a seperate skill, and we all be happy to train it (except the passive tankers, lol)!
Check out my Shield/Armor resistance calculator.
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Amon Evakrace
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Posted - 2005.05.16 14:38:00 -
[158]
Definately add this as a seperate skill, hell even put it up for a vote. This is a needless nerf at a skill which is well established and very useful, as an armour tanker myself 80% the time i will be sad to see 25% of my shield recharge ability disappear, for the sake of 10% to shield boost? Its more or less a joke. 
There would be no unbalancing in creating another skill to implement this idea and now that it was brought it, this is a skill that probably should of been in the game a long time ago at 5% ~ per lvl so it would reduce the need of an amp on battleships. Those matari pilots too have to relie on shields sometimes 
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2005.05.17 12:05:00 -
[159]
And while you're at it make it a rank 3 skill, because IMO this is a frigging good skill to have. 10% less cap used for shield boosting is *huge*. (ie can safe you up to 10 cap per second(!)).
Can I have it for armor tanking as well?
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"Do you really think that's air you're breathing?" |
Dashi
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:06:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Pottsey
ô800mm Tempest with perfect skills should be about 800 DPS
Pulse Geddon with perfect skills should be over 1000 DPSö
But how much do those ships do after taking off resistance? ItÆs not like a ship has to regen the full 800 to 1000 DPS to survive. If you have a low 50% resistance thatÆs already lowered the hitpoint regen needed to survive down to 400 to 500. DonÆt most PvP people have more then 50% resistanceÆs?
What about the PvE people donÆt they count in finding the skill useful and what about the amour tankers who took the skill to make there shields last a little longer? Then there are the people with the smaller ships some people do Curiser V Crusier e.c.t. Not everyone fights BS V BS and there is more to Eve then just PvP. I know PvP is a major part of Eve but so is PvE.
I didn't bother reading alot more: my tempest with my scout 800 repeatings, would bbq anyone doing a passive tank in maybe 15-20 seconds. one your passivesheild tank hits armor, if your not aligned to warp out, you die, simple. If you wish to test this, I'll definatly test this with you to any extent you wish
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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2005.05.17 13:11:00 -
[161]
my raven can already run it's xl shield booster for long enough thank you...please just leave the passive regen skill available i prefer it that way tyvm
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K. Raven
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X'Alor
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Posted - 2005.05.17 16:20:00 -
[162]
Edited by: X''Alor on 17/05/2005 16:21:21
Slight quest reguarding shield boosting, shield transfers, and amplifiers.
Question: Does shield boost amplifiers also amplify transfered shields or not?
We can only test under fire and are having a hella time trying to find out once and for sure if it does or doesn't.
The only place we can get definite figures seems to be the UI on the ship being transfered to. We know the transferer is transfering a large but we can't fully tell if it is his transfer amount from his info or if it is being boosted.
The last thing we were gonna try was to completely loadout a ravens midslot with amps, do some friendly buddy shooting to help regulate incoming damage a bit and see what kinda jumps we get.
We've been testing in the field with two amps and simply can tell 100% for sure if they do or not. We think it does but that may just be the optimists in us.
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.05.17 16:46:00 -
[163]
Activate Transfer module out of combat on anything and show info on the module, then compare to deactivated mode.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
What is your Radical Dream? |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.17 18:17:00 -
[164]
ôI didn't bother reading alot more: my tempest with my scout 800 repeatings, would bbq anyone doing a passive tank in maybe 15-20 seconds. one your passivesheild tank hits armor, if your not aligned to warp out, you die, simple.ö
So you have a DPS of 2000 to 2500+? IsnÆt that over twice the current record?
With my lowest resistance at 50% itÆs going to take a DPS of 1809.8 to take my shields down in 15 seconds with 0 regen so I assume once you take into account regen the number goes up above 1809.
I would clearly lose as my PvP skills are rubbish but donÆt see how you could kill a passive tank in 15 to 20 seconds due to the shear amount of hitpoints.
Note:
Has anyone looked at the new hybrd setups possible on the test sever a passive tank with 1 shield booster? My Dominix has 21,977 hitpoints with a 173.8 regen when using 1 extar large T2 shield booster. But no hardeners, I wonder if the extra hitpoints make up for the lack of hardeners. You could always lower the regen to 164.3 and stick in 1 EM hardener or 1 Shield AMP.
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Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Phades
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Posted - 2005.05.17 18:41:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôI didn't bother reading alot more: my tempest with my scout 800 repeatings, would bbq anyone doing a passive tank in maybe 15-20 seconds. one your passivesheild tank hits armor, if your not aligned to warp out, you die, simple.ö
So you have a DPS of 2000 to 2500+? IsnÆt that over twice the current record?
With my lowest resistance at 50% itÆs going to take a DPS of 1809.8 to take my shields down in 15 seconds with 0 regen so I assume once you take into account regen the number goes up above 1809.
I would clearly lose as my PvP skills are rubbish but donÆt see how you could kill a passive tank in 15 to 20 seconds due to the shear amount of hitpoints.
Note:
Has anyone looked at the new hybrd setups possible on the test sever a passive tank with 1 shield booster? My Dominix has 21,977 hitpoints with a 173.8 regen when using 1 extar large T2 shield booster. But no hardeners, I wonder if the extra hitpoints make up for the lack of hardeners. You could always lower the regen to 164.3 and stick in 1 EM hardener or 1 Shield AMP.
He is most likely assuming that passive = no defensive modules installed, otherwise he would have realized how dumb he was sounding there.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.05.17 19:10:00 -
[166]
about 800 DPS is the max for a tempest with lvl5 skills and tech2 guns, just info on the real numbers
I still consider passive tanking as big ****, cause it fubars your other fittings and take too much slots (hell dont tank at all, its not worth it), but boosting shield tanking wont help.
Its more like the raven will get boosted, where tempest still has problems, cause it will never get tanked decently
Wanna fly with me?
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Dashi
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Posted - 2005.05.18 13:08:00 -
[167]
ok, misunderstood passive as like on interceptor: like 2-3 low resistant type moduals with no boosting. Hmm. Never actully seen a passive tank on sheilds. I mean, isn't your cap nerf'd to hell and back when you passive tank, and at peak, whats the absolute hitpoints recharged in 1 second. Also, what is your resistances?
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Damocles Ician
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Posted - 2005.05.18 13:16:00 -
[168]
Edited by: Damocles Ician on 18/05/2005 13:17:18
You could always go read up on the whole topic :)
click here
edit - I had a HAC cruiser with (if the peak number is 2.4) about 70 shield a second.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.05.18 16:02:00 -
[169]
Edited by: Pottsey on 18/05/2005 16:03:28
öNever actully seen a passive tank on sheilds. I mean, isn't your cap nerf'd to hell and back when you passive tank, and at peak, whats the absolute hitpoints recharged in 1 second. Also, what is your resistances?ö
There are two methods of passive shield tanking one useÆs Shield relays which gives more shield regen and kills your cap regen. But at the same time you donÆt need as much cap as you donÆt have a 40cap/s drain from a large shield booster or 120 cap/s drain from an extra large booster. The other method is to use Power Diagnostic System modules which boosts your cap regen and shield hitpoints but gives less overall shield regen. You also have to take into account regen might be less then a shield booster but have extra hitpoints and someone using nos or other cap draining modules donÆt knock out your defence.
At peak my current record is 115 hp/s recharge but with no shield hardeners so I donÆt tend to use this ship layout.
Edit: I forgot to say. Both the below setups are on Dominix battleship with drones as the primary weapon and railguns as secondary weapons.
Right now I am playing around with T1 active hardeners as I decided my cap was going to waste. I could boost this a fair bit by swapping to T2 or named modules. My cap holds steady at 45%.
EM 38.35%
Explosive 75.34%
Kinetic 63.01%
Thermal 50.68%
18098 shield hitpoints and 44.3 regen. This is my new PvE setup the idea is to last long enough to kill everything. I guess if I wasnÆt so lazy I would swap in hardeners only on the resistanceÆs that the rats shoot at. Right now I boost everything.
My older setup is with passive hardeners T2.
EM 38 %
Explosive 60%
Kinetic 40%
Thermal 50%
12862 shield hitpoints and 80.79 regen.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.05.18 20:55:00 -
[170]
Just a comment as I don't know if it's been mentioned before or not and I cba reading all pages (sorry) :
As long as the leadership bonus for more shields works the way it works (ie when you jump you lose the bonus most of the time, making you revert to the default inbetween) then this change will make it take even longer for the shields to get back up (if you're not shield boosting).
Since I usually don't really rely on the passive shield recharge this change would be mostly good for me though...
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.05.19 02:57:00 -
[171]
TomB:
Quote:
capable of taking more damage per second as always.
I come back to this, where exactly do you get the idea that shield tanking repairs more per second than armor tanking? It doesnt, it actually repairs less with the skills.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.05.19 07:56:00 -
[172]
Large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills 71.1 armor/sec
Xlarge II = 120 shield per sec
2x large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills is 142.2 armor/sec
Xlarge II with amp = 156 shield per sec.
That's probably where he gets that from.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Antic
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Posted - 2005.05.19 10:17:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Gariuys
Large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills 71.1 armor/sec
Xlarge II = 120 shield per sec
2x large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills is 142.2 armor/sec
Xlarge II with amp = 156 shield per sec.
That's probably where he gets that from.
Might want to add the cap drain and fitting reqs to those numbers too.
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2005.05.19 18:28:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Antic
Originally by: Gariuys
Large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills 71.1 armor/sec
Xlarge II = 120 shield per sec
2x large armor rep II, with lvl 5 skills is 142.2 armor/sec
Xlarge II with amp = 156 shield per sec.
That's probably where he gets that from.
Might want to add the cap drain and fitting reqs to those numbers too.
I already did all the math. With that skill shield tanking is better in all aspects, even more cap efficient than armor tanking.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.05.19 19:20:00 -
[175]
Edited by: Selim on 19/05/2005 19:25:53
Guess what???
YOU CAN ONLY FIT X-LARGE II AND SHIELD BOOST AMP WITH ANY DECENT SETUP ON A RAVEN OR SCORPION.
If I see another comparison involving an XLsb II + amp I'm going to vomit.
Ever think of how there are also medium and small and large shield boosters that totally suck compared to armor repairers? And how only a very select few ships (all caldari, by the way) can ever, ever fit a shield boost amp + shield booster?
What about how armor tanking ships have bigger capacitors anyway? Not only do they repair more and are more cap efficient, the ships that are good at them have higher cap reserves to draw from.
Devs need to stop doing balance by looking at the battleships. Its silly, they look at the raven which is incredibly easy to shield tank, and is fairly decent at it since it can actually fit an xl 2 and amp... and ignore the tempest, all cruisers and frigates. Just cause the raven is the only ship that can actually shield tank good doesnt mean shield tanking is good.
Apart from all that, its pretty ridiculous that shields are crappier than armor.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2005.05.20 08:42:00 -
[176]
Ever notice how a very few select ships (all amarr btw) can ever, ever fit two large repairers?
Ever notice both small and medium shield boosters outperform similar armor repairers in hp/sec, but cost more cap/sec.
Ever notice shield tankers have similar cap to armor tankers that do not require an Amarr ship skill to pilot?
Ever notice we're not yet counting shield boost amp II?
Ever notice you're making a fool of yourself?
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"Do you really think that's air you're breathing?" |
Antic
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Posted - 2005.05.20 08:55:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Ever notice how a very few select ships (all amarr btw) can ever, ever fit two large repairers?
Ever notice both small and medium shield boosters outperform similar armor repairers in hp/sec, but cost more cap/sec.
Ever notice shield tankers have similar cap to armor tankers that do not require an Amarr ship skill to pilot?
Ever notice we're not yet counting shield boost amp II?
Ever notice you're making a fool of yourself?
Raven wont be able to fit a shield boost amp if the pilot wants hardeners after missile balance. due to needing painter and web. Scorp will be the only ship that has nuff slots.
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Intergalactic Quant
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Posted - 2005.05.20 12:35:00 -
[178]
This would be nice ... but only if you intorduced this as a new skill rather than replacing the functionality of an existing skill.
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Edania
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Posted - 2005.05.20 15:33:00 -
[179]
im well aware that this topic has been well argued out but i cant just ignore it, i feel i must throw my support however valueless it may be behing getting a new skill to do what is proposed rather than shield op, because your taking away a valuable skill for everyone. by which i mean an armour tanking pilot has no use for the proposed shield op bonus, but does have limited use for the old bonus.
Your proposing to take away a skill that modifies ship stats, with one that modifies module stats to a far inferior degree these 2 modifiers are in different leagues all together.
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2005.05.20 15:53:00 -
[180]
Edited by: XpoHoc on 20/05/2005 15:58:46
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 19/05/2005 19:25:53
Guess what???
YOU CAN ONLY FIT X-LARGE II AND SHIELD BOOST AMP WITH ANY DECENT SETUP ON A RAVEN OR SCORPION.
If I see another comparison involving an XLsb II + amp I'm going to vomit.
Ever think of how there are also medium and small and large shield boosters that totally suck compared to armor repairers? And how only a very select few ships (all caldari, by the way) can ever, ever fit a shield boost amp + shield booster?
What about how armor tanking ships have bigger capacitors anyway? Not only do they repair more and are more cap efficient, the ships that are good at them have higher cap reserves to draw from.
Devs need to stop doing balance by looking at the battleships. Its silly, they look at the raven which is incredibly easy to shield tank, and is fairly decent at it since it can actually fit an xl 2 and amp... and ignore the tempest, all cruisers and frigates. Just cause the raven is the only ship that can actually shield tank good doesnt mean shield tanking is good.
Apart from all that, its pretty ridiculous that shields are crappier than armor.
A few pages ago I compared 2x Large Repairer II with Xlarge II + Amp. I took shield tanked Raven vs armor tanked Tempest for this.
Your arguments are weird. You say Raven and Scorpion are the only ships who can easily mount Xlarge II + Amp, which is right. That also means that this change will boost this ships a lot, while leaving other shield tanks out.
Shield tanking on Raven would be more cap efficient and generally safer (armor as buffer, fast cycle timer) than armor tanking. The fact that only the Raven and Scorp can use that config doesn't make any difference, since I think one imbalance is enough, EVE players always go for the uber config/gear.
Your other comments regarding medium and small sized modules I can not comment, I do use all kinds of ship sizes but anything below a BS is not even worth the math, since tanking there usually doesn't make sense in PvP.
And bad shield tanks (without Amp) should be worse than armor tanks in matter of cap, that's one of the advantages of armor tanking. Sometimes even that is not enough to make them reliable in PvP, since a cycle of 10-15 seconds is a very long time in such a battle.
Edit: I've already said this all in this thread but afaik nobody ever complained about shield vs armor, this change is there to make EVE combat more tactical therefore longlasting. For me it does not make sense to boost only one side.
1. Leave the skill alone
2. Introduce 2 new skills giving that bonus for armor and shield tanks.
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