| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Selim
   |
Posted - 2005.05.20 21:42:00 -
[181]
If armor tanking is supposed to last longer, than what exactly, is shield's advantage...?
|
XpoHoc
|
Posted - 2005.05.21 00:42:00 -
[182]
Edited by: XpoHoc on 21/05/2005 00:43:23
Shield tanking advantage is of tactical nature.
First you have the short boost rates of 4-5 seconds, which means a lot in small to medium sized skirmishes and even ganks.
Second you have armor with its high EM resistance. Fighting a shield tank your opponent will probably use EM and heat damage to take you down, once your shield is down he will face your armor which has high resistances against shield braking ammo. That leaves you more time to escape the situation or finish him off. We are talking about only a few seconds, but that's how EVE PvP works.
And then the last point is that shield tanking gives you space for damage mods or warp core stabs, means you can tank for a short amount of time while dealing maximum damage.
Armor tanking had only two advantages.
It was the cap effectiveness which gives an armor tank more time to kill or escape.
The other advantage was that you can have you med slots equiped with tackling modules.
You are vulnerable because your cycle timer is very long, some battles won't give you the time to even use half your cap before you die. Additionally you have no buffer zone, only unhardened structure which can not count as an advantage since shield tanking also has it.
This change would take the only advantage for using an armor tank since most other aspects negate themself with corresponding advantages of the other side.
 |
Antic
|
Posted - 2005.05.21 11:41:00 -
[183]
argh for alts that last one was me.
|
Anticalt
|
Posted - 2005.05.21 11:41:00 -
[184]
 Originally by: XpoHoc
Edited by: XpoHoc on 21/05/2005 00:43:23
Shield tanking advantage is of tactical nature.
First you have the short boost rates of 4-5 seconds, which means a lot in small to medium sized skirmishes and even ganks.
Second you have armor with its high EM resistance. Fighting a shield tank your opponent will probably use EM and heat damage to take you down, once your shield is down he will face your armor which has high resistances against shield braking ammo. That leaves you more time to escape the situation or finish him off. We are talking about only a few seconds, but that's how EVE PvP works.
And then the last point is that shield tanking gives you space for damage mods or warp core stabs, means you can tank for a short amount of time while dealing maximum damage.
Armor tanking had only two advantages.
It was the cap effectiveness which gives an armor tank more time to kill or escape.
The other advantage was that you can have you med slots equiped with tackling modules.
You are vulnerable because your cycle timer is very long, some battles won't give you the time to even use half your cap before you die. Additionally you have no buffer zone, only unhardened structure which can not count as an advantage since shield tanking also has it.
This change would take the only advantage for using an armor tank since most other aspects negate themself with corresponding advantages of the other side.
Untrue. experienced people mix ammo.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.05.21 17:34:00 -
[185]
the armor of a shield tank melts instantly. If you disagree I can also argue that armor tanks have shield buffer so they dont have to tank right away. It gives you time to activate your repairers.
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2005.05.21 20:58:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Antic
argh for alts that last one was me.
tell me how you mix ammo?
afaik the only ship which can "mix" ammo is the Raven
Tempest can choose different damagy types, but needs to choose the range too, and still has problems to deal lots of kinetic at closer range.
What guns you use on which ship to "mix" ammos?
Wanna fly with me?
|
Ly'sol
|
Posted - 2005.05.22 06:54:00 -
[187]
why an ugloacpolypes of course!!
Have a mixture of rails/beams/torps/and artilleries!!!!
--------------------------
Vist the Jericho Fraction Forums
|
XpoHoc
|
Posted - 2005.05.22 14:23:00 -
[188]
Edited by: XpoHoc on 22/05/2005 14:28:13
Originally by: Selim
the armor of a shield tank melts instantly. If you disagree I can also argue that armor tanks have shield buffer so they dont have to tank right away. It gives you time to activate your repairers.
Example:
You fight a close range Megathron in your Raven. You start battle, you kill his shield with about 2 volleys and you also seem to have to problem getting through his armor. Now he is in range and starts melting your shield down like you were not boosting at all, you realize you fight a gank ship. You might stay there and go for it, maybe you will kill him fast enough or you start to align and try to warp off. your shield is down, now you get armor damage, but your hardenend shield cames back in small pieces every 4 seconds. That gives you enough time to warp out.
Now you are the Megathron and you engage a Raven. You use your MWD to get in range, by that time he has killed off your shield. You start off your repairers and start firing. After a few seconds you see how your armor goes down, you seem to be good in repairing it back, but his damage within the 12seconds while there is no boost is to high and you always get some structure damage. About 5 cycles later, you still have enough cap left, but he manages to kill off your left structure before your next repair boost hits.
Generally you can say any buffer that is in a layer before the tanked layer won't give you the advantage I am talking about.
But we are going to far. Would you agree that there was no imbalance between armor and shield tanks before this change? I've never heard about people complaining about it.
This change is good, but only if both sides can benefit from it.
|
Ice Breaker
|
Posted - 2005.05.23 01:11:00 -
[189]
Originally by: XpoHoc
You fight a close range Megathron in your Raven.
You are certainly right about how the higher "repair rate" (i.e. hp/s) can be an advantage for shield tankers, especially in this case of a pvp bs VS bs fight. However, this skill change - what this thread is about - has a much wider scope than this mere example. Granted, this is only an example. But not every shield tanker in pve, or in pvp, is a raven, and if I had to setup some of my ships for pvp, i wouldn't shield tank anything else than a raven. I can only fly t1 caldari ships, by the way.
I'm under the impression that examples about how shield tank is in pvp generally involves a raven (with nosferatus) because that's about the only case where a shield tank is worth it, bar some setups with cap injectors or t2 ships. That's just my opinion, because that's how I would setup my ships.
I wouldn't like a decision about the "shield operation skill" being made only on the basis of a pvp, 1 vs 1, nosferatu raven.
Ice
|
XpoHoc
|
Posted - 2005.05.23 03:18:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Ice Breaker
Originally by: XpoHoc
You fight a close range Megathron in your Raven.
You are certainly right about how the higher "repair rate" (i.e. hp/s) can be an advantage for shield tankers, especially in this case of a pvp bs VS bs fight. However, this skill change - what this thread is about - has a much wider scope than this mere example. Granted, this is only an example. But not every shield tanker in pve, or in pvp, is a raven, and if I had to setup some of my ships for pvp, i wouldn't shield tank anything else than a raven. I can only fly t1 caldari ships, by the way.
I'm under the impression that examples about how shield tank is in pvp generally involves a raven (with nosferatus) because that's about the only case where a shield tank is worth it, bar some setups with cap injectors or t2 ships. That's just my opinion, because that's how I would setup my ships.
I wouldn't like a decision about the "shield operation skill" being made only on the basis of a pvp, 1 vs 1, nosferatu raven.
Ice
I haven't mentioned Nosferatus I think and my configs don't have any use for them on the Raven.
My last example doesn't really have anything to do with Ravens or Megathrons, it was just a general example to show why shield as a buffer for armor tanks is not the same as the armor as a buffer for shield tanks in most cases.
And again, I am not against this change, I just don't see the point why only shield tanks should benefit of it. 2 new skills alike for shield and armor would be better.
Before anyone starts to think my opinion is biased somehow, I can use a variety of different ships, adjusting is no problem for me and since I do PvP mostly in groups my configs don't take into account what is best for me but what is best for the group, that means such minor changes actually don't affect me at all.
|
Ice Breaker
|
Posted - 2005.05.23 04:25:00 -
[191]
Originally by: XpoHoc
My last example doesn't really have anything to do with Ravens or Megathrons, it was just a general example to show why shield as a buffer for armor tanks is not the same as the armor as a buffer for shield tanks in most cases.
You're right, they are different and it has to be acknowledged when shield VS armor tanking is the issue.
My comment was just an observation about the example you took, because i think that few shield tanking friendly ships are similar to the raven, as they lack the cap and "short range-like" damage output. And once you're out of cap, it doesn't matter if you have a buffer or not. In your example, the raven doesn't run out of cap, and that's what made me comment it. Usually, a shield tank dies because it runs out of cap.
So yes, i agree with you about the tactical advantage of shield tanking repairing more per second, and yes, your example showed that a shield tank can be superior to an armor tank in a "short fight". But i somewhat didn't find your example "fair", as usually shield tank means long range, low damage (as compared to short range, high damage). Most other ships will fit shield tank + long range and their cap won't last long enough to kill the short range opponent due to the lower dps of the long range guns. They'll run out of cap, then die. No buffer in this case. A raven is thus a special case IMO, short range weapon (& high damage) and shield tank.
Ok, i didn't write that in my previous post because it was a bit confused as why i didn't feel so comfortable with your example. I hope that it is a bit clearer now  .
Ice
PS: Sorry for the off-topicness, as i can't really link this to the change of the "shield operation" skill.
|
Gairon Fay
|
Posted - 2005.05.23 07:38:00 -
[192]
I can only agree to the facts being stated earlier, about this skill change being a not really appreciated change, I concur more with the views of leaving it as it was, and instead introducing the new skill suggested. This change is a hard blow to those helping in shield Transferring, as this has no particular use in this case. It takes away some of the advantages of having a dedicated shield transferrer in the group.
I surely hope that attention will be payed to the arguments being made in this forum.
------------------------------------------------
From the Shadows, he watches...
It¦s safer there.
|
Magunus
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 15:31:00 -
[193]
Well, looks like it's been split out into its own skill now. Rank 2. Pottsey will be pleased... :D
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 17:43:00 -
[194]
ôPottsey will be pleased... :Dö
Pleased doesnÆt cover it. My corp now has to put up with me running around our POS like a excited little kid who wonÆt shut up about passive shield tanking.
Thanks devs this is by far the best change you have done in ages and the best patch. At lest for me. Now do I post my new Hp regen record now or after the change has made its way to the live server 
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Vilserx
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 18:03:00 -
[195]
So what's happened then?
---------------------------
VSX EVE Design |
xenorx
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 18:09:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Magunus
Well, looks like it's been split out into its own skill now. Rank 2. Pottsey will be pleased... :D
I just looked back at Tombs original post. I dont see where he has changed it. Where is the info on the new skill?
|
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 19:15:00 -
[197]
The skill on the test sever has been changed back.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Ice Breaker
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 19:35:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Pottsey
The skill on the test sever has been changed back.
Now that's a good news, thanks CCP.
Ice
|
Colthor
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 19:42:00 -
[199]
Originally by: xenorx
Where is the info on the new skill?
Shield Compensation
2% Less capacitor need for shield boosters per skill level.
2x Training time multiplier.
Requires: Shield Operation level 3, Engineering Level 1
To top it off my experimental passive tank on my Ferox (2x Large Shield Extender II, 3xShield Power Relay I, PDS (to make it all fit)) now gives 8013hp in 378sec. (~51hp/sec.)
Not bad considering I only have Shield Operation 4 and Shield Management 3 on SiSi!
Looks pretty good all 'round
--
OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details.
Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO! |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 20:57:00 -
[200]
Anyone having problems on the test server? I was trying to test the new skill and shield changes but the sentry guns refuse to shoot back at me. The billboard are perfectly happy to shoot me though, never even new they had weapons.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Magunus
|
Posted - 2005.05.24 21:28:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Pottsey
Anyone having problems on the test server? I was trying to test the new skill and shield changes but the sentry guns refuse to shoot back at me. The billboard are perfectly happy to shoot me though, never even new they had weapons.
Ack, report that as a bug! I'd hate to see that get into TQ... :P
What system are you in? I could shoot at you.
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 06:48:00 -
[202]
The sector is Ouelletta and I tried again today. The guns still refuse to shoot back at me. Bug report sent.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
tester951a
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 06:55:00 -
[203]
Good news that the skill remains unchanged. What about the inceased shield hp bonus on the extenders - can anyone post some stats on those as i don't have acces to the test server myself? |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 07:15:00 -
[204]
2100 for the large shield extender T2.
840 for the mid shield extender T2.
150 for the small shield extender T2.
105 for the micro shield extender T2.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 09:43:00 -
[205]
Micro Nanite Management
2% reduction in cap use for armor repair systems
Rank 2 (int/mem)
Requires Repair systems 3
Mechanic 1
Please?
-------------------------------------------------------
"Do you really think that's air you're breathing?" |
XpoHoc
|
Posted - 2005.05.25 16:12:00 -
[206]
I would like to thank TomB and if it turns out to be bad idea after all, you are free to blame me for it ;) .
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 00:53:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Micro Nanite Management
2% reduction in cap use for armor repair systems
Rank 2 (int/mem)
Requires Repair systems 3
Mechanic 1
Please?
No. Armour tanking is already far more efficient then shield tanking.
--------------------------------------------------
|
sableye
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 01:31:00 -
[208]
just wanted to say I really liek th news that they are testing it as a new skill its the fairest way all around as people who armour tank don't get screwed for s kill they may never have trained, yes even if you have ana roumr tank that shield recharge will helpp you build a little buffer faster but 2% cap does nothingf or you.
|
Kuolematon
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 06:19:00 -
[209]
Thank you CCP, I got to keep my passive shield regen on my apoc :). It would be really damn slow without Shield operation lvl5 
_______________________________________________
My opinions aren't my corporations opinions.
(\_/)
(x.x) This is what's left of Bunny, the rest tasted delicious. |
Inspiration
|
Posted - 2005.05.26 11:18:00 -
[210]
Many thanks to CCP for creating seperate skills for cap conservation for repairing/boosting. This will help people to improve their tank sustainability and in many cases allow them to make a viable tanked ships that previously were near impossible at reasonable costs.
I consider this good news for everyone, be it armor or shield tankers.
Check out my Shield/Armor resistance calculator.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |