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Yuki Li	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:45:00 - [31] Finally, justification for training Shield Operation V. [ 2004.07.31 17:31:00 ] (combat) Gallente Police Major strikes you perfectly, wrecking for 427.9 damage.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:53:00 - [32] Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 21:04:28 ôEven at it's peak it should be less than 0.5 HP/sec, and the tanking methods we're comparing here are more in hte order of 100-150 HP/second.ö It depends on the ship but a basic ship your going be losing about 11.5 hp over 5 seconds with the change. Which adds up in a battle. ThatÆs 690 less hp regen in 1 min. Start using PDS modules which are common on shield tanks and that gaps gets worse. By basic ship I mean with no modules fitted. Another way to look at it you regen at 100hp a sec on an active tank and donÆt run out of cap. I believe thatÆs possible. You enemy does 95dps your fine as your tank holds. New skill now takes affect you regen at under 95 hp a sec but have extra cap your tank fails and you die. When you dealing with 100 hp over 5 seconds loseing 11+ regen is a lot. Even a basic ship can pull of over 8 hp regen a sec. Without the change a basic ship gets 40 hp regen over 5 seconds. Surely you can agree thatÆs not useless? _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:08:00 - [33] Ok, fair enough. But can we please have a new skill that lets me recharge my shield passively faster? Trained that skill (Shield Op) to level 4 so that I'd be fit for another fight faster. I haven't touched a shield booster since armour tanking became viable (not even when flying Scorps). -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:52:00 - [34] I don't particularly like this change; I trained up Shield Ops V to be back in action more quickly. Combined with Shield management V it gave you a 67% increase in average shield recharge, that's not insignificant... Why not make a separate, 'advanced' skill for reduced cap usage, perhaps one that requires Shield Operation V as a pre-requisite? (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Prothos	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:11:00 - [35] Edited by: Prothos on 04/05/2005 23:11:06 Why not leave this skill as is and add another skill for that. Skill operation is already a needed skill for shield tankers. Why take away a good skill.
Damocles Ician	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:27:00 - [36] Edited by: Damocles Ician on 04/05/2005 23:28:38 Yes please make it a new skill. I don't think I would have trained it otherwise. I think it's a perfect candidate for rank 4-6. -------------
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 04/05/2005 21:04:28 ôEven at it's peak it should be less than 0.5 HP/sec, and the tanking methods we're comparing here are more in hte order of 100-150 HP/second.ö It depends on the ship but a basic ship your going be losing about 11.5 hp over 5 seconds with the change. Which adds up in a battle. ThatÆs 690 less hp regen in 1 min. Start using PDS modules which are common on shield tanks and that gaps gets worse. By basic ship I mean with no modules fitted. Another way to look at it you regen at 100hp a sec on an active tank and donÆt run out of cap. I believe thatÆs possible. You enemy does 95dps your fine as your tank holds. New skill now takes affect you regen at under 95 hp a sec but have extra cap your tank fails and you die. When you dealing with 100 hp over 5 seconds loseing 11+ regen is a lot. Even a basic ship can pull of over 8 hp regen a sec. Without the change a basic ship gets 40 hp regen over 5 seconds. Surely you can agree thatÆs not useless? it is, cause BS can do about 1000 damage per second Wanna fly with me?
Aequitas Veritas	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:43:00 - [38] Im in the camp for another skill as well so we dont harm the ones that rely on passive tanking too much, they allready put os much effort into creating their setups etc.
Serret	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:12:00 - [39] For those who actually trained up the shield skills, the natural recharge rate becomes more and more important as part of total shield regeneration (along with shieldboosting). As another poster already pointed out, the possible 10% cap savings on shield boosting is not too attractive when compared to the 67% bonus to natural shield recharge, especially on a true shieldtank which may easily exceed 8000 shields.
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2005.05.05 01:03:00 - [40] Edited by: Selak Zorander on 05/05/2005 01:15:58 I have to agree with the posts about the need to make it a seperate skill. Here are the numbers for those that like numbers: tech 2 Armor repairer get 2.0 hp/cap expended with max skills. this takes 1 low slot to achieve and leaves midslots and low slots for cap recharge mods like cap rechargers and cap power relays. tech 2 shield booster with tech 1 shield boost amp gets 2.16 HP/cap expended with max skills. This take 2 mid slots from you reducing your ability to increase you cap recharge especially since cap power relays are not useable due to the cap power realy shield boost penalty. using one cap power relay on the set up drops the boosting down to 1.95 HP/cap expended. As for the natural recharge difference, my ferox set-up with active tank had a recharge of 7.78 hp/sec if you divided shields by recharge time on the live server. on the test server the same setup has a natural recharge of 7.209 hp/sec. So in my case not a huge difference there in terms of natural recharge. EDIT - i made a typo - it is 7.78 on tranq and 7.20 on sisi. Exact numbers are as follows tranq - 4927 shields with 633 sec recharge sisi - 5703 shields with 791 sec recharge
Serret	Posted - 2005.05.05 01:12:00 - [41] Originally by: Selak Zorander I have to agree with the posts about the need to make it a seperate skill.As for the natural recharge difference, my ferox set-up with active tank had a recharge of 7.28 hp/sec if you divided shields by recharge time on the live server. on the test server the same setup has a natural recharge of 7.209 hp/sec. So in my case not a huge difference there in terms of natural recharge. Please check your calculations, if you would. How can a TQ setup with 25% shorter recharge time (with current Shield Ops Bonus) could yield nearly the same recharge rate as without the bonus? (Your calculations should yield a 33% increase to recharge rate due to the bonus).
Kayosoni	Posted - 2005.05.05 01:53:00 - [42] This is sweet. http://www.siegedom.com/Files/Eve/Sisi/EveSisiSBChanges.jpg ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2005.05.05 03:45:00 - [43] omfg haxxored!!! ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Queen Latifah	Posted - 2005.05.05 06:34:00 - [44] will there be xxl large sb for dreadnoughts?
Zenst	Posted - 2005.05.05 06:47:00 - [45] Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Shadowsword Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so... i have no ide where u got 2.5 from... 1) armor has 10% more total resistances 2) armor has waaaaayyyy better resistance distribution and it also lacks 1) a skill to reduce armour related powergrid usage (sheild upgrades) 2) let alone any natural regain or associated skills And now It also lacks skill to reduce cap usage for armour repairs So comparing Armour to sheilds and winging about it is a waste of time as they are different. Just accept it and move on. WTB cheap Ravens and modules from any sub 2 month mission carebears who are crying - tuff
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.05 06:50:00 - [46] ôit is, cause BS can do about 1000 damage per secondö I thought an average Raven does 300 DPS not 1000 and people say the Raven is one of the most powerful BSÆs. A scorpion does well under 300 DPS. Once you take 50% resistance off you now dealing with 150 or less if itÆs a Scorpian. Take of the natural regen with a couple of PDS modules and your down to only needing to heal 100DPS with a shield booster. Or have I got muddle up and a Raven did 300 DPS after resistance? Natural regen makes a big impact on how much damage you can absorb. If you have a natural regen of 10 then thatÆs like having a free large shield booster turned on for 1 boost every 5th second or something along those lines and thats without module's. It gets better with PDS modules with are common. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.05.05 09:26:00 - [47] Shield tanking does have 2 distinct advantages to armor tanking : 1. Natural recharge boosts the efficiency of an active shieldtank, armor doesnt selfrepair. 2. IF the shield gets stripped you still have an armor and a structure buffer Especially point 1 needs to be factored in when you are comparing armortanking and shieldtanking. The slight extra cost per hp for shieldtanking is more than compensated by the natural recharge. ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Detrol	Posted - 2005.05.05 10:47:00 - [48] Helmut, you can make that as an advantage to armor repairing as well: When a shield tank gets broken, his armor will go down... when he survives, the armor will not regenerate automatically. You have to dock or carry an armor rep to repair it While for an armor rep, his shield will regenerate automatically, hence restoring his first buffer to full power without the need for a shield booster.
Zenst	Posted - 2005.05.05 10:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Detrol Helmut, you can make that as an advantage to armor repairing as well: When a shield tank gets broken, his armor will go down... when he survives, the armor will not regenerate automatically. You have to dock or carry an armor rep to repair it While for an armor rep, his shield will regenerate automatically, hence restoring his first buffer to full power without the need for a shield booster. its a tactical choice you make, and remote armour repairs. This apple is not a bannana, nuff said. as to the change it will make sheild tanking more greater than armour tanking as armour tankers will lose that sheild buffer and not be able to regain it as fast now. SO were is my cap redcution and powergrid reduction armour skills, ew look the aint, so boo hoo hoo. Everybody has the same skills/options available to em and they chose how they fit up knwing this so on that note i'm going to vote Tory and you can all suffer - bahhhahahahhaha
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.05 11:18:00 - [50] Originally by: Pottsey ôit is, cause BS can do about 1000 damage per secondö I thought an average Raven does 300 DPS not 1000 and people say the Raven is one of the most powerful BSÆs. A scorpion does well under 300 DPS. Once you take 50% resistance off you now dealing with 150 or less if itÆs a Scorpian. Take of the natural regen with a couple of PDS modules and your down to only needing to heal 100DPS with a shield booster. Or have I got muddle up and a Raven did 300 DPS after resistance? Natural regen makes a big impact on how much damage you can absorb. If you have a natural regen of 10 then thatÆs like having a free large shield booster turned on for 1 boost every 5th second or something along those lines and thats without module's. It gets better with PDS modules with are common. Raven does inferior damage fitted as gank ship 800mm Tempest with perfect skills should be about 800 DPS Pulse Geddon with perfect skills should be over 1000 DPS Megathron Im not sure, but blasters do more damage then my 800mm autos Raven is only good cause it does most damage as a tanked ship, cause megathron and tempest nor Geddon can fit damage and tanking setup. But therefor their gank setups do superior damage. With actual gamestyle for PvP is the burst repair more important then a slighty increased natural recharge, mostly it will take about 15 seconds till your shield or tank is gone. Even if you face only 2 enemy BS. I can understand that you somehow like passive tanking for your style of gaming, but a large part of the people prefer active tanking and PvP. And I havent seen any decent passive tanking setup for PvP, cause it ruins your cap, which you really want to have running. Wanna fly with me?
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2005.05.05 11:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Zenst Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Shadowsword Well, I forgot the average +2.5% resistance armor tanking has. Is it enough to offset a 10-20 cap/second usage from blasters/railguns/lasers? I don't think so... i have no ide where u got 2.5 from... 1) armor has 10% more total resistances 2) armor has waaaaayyyy better resistance distribution and it also lacks 1) a skill to reduce armour related powergrid usage (sheild upgrades) 2) let alone any natural regain or associated skills And now It also lacks skill to reduce cap usage for armour repairs So comparing Armour to sheilds and winging about it is a waste of time as they are different. Just accept it and move on. WTB cheap Ravens and modules from any sub 2 month mission carebears who are crying - tuff im sorry but you are the one who whining right now. I never said shields tankin sucks -_you_ tryin to prove me opposite. However is it still much weaker than armor tanking... it is called comon sense and im tired of tryin to prove it. ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.05.05 14:55:00 - [52] Edited by: Pottsey on 05/05/2005 14:57:00 ôI can understand that you somehow like passive tanking for your style of gaming, but a large part of the people prefer active tanking and PvP. And I havent seen any decent passive tanking setup for PvP, cause it ruins your cap, which you really want to have running.ö Well first there are two methods of passive tanking and 1 method boosts your cap not kills it the other methods kills you cap regen but at the same time lowers the needed cap regen so you still come out ok. But my main point is I was talking about active tanking not passive. A typical active shield tank with PDS modules with the old skill gets around 50 hp/s () regen from the natural recharge. ThatÆs like having a free large T2 shield booster on all the time. So youÆre telling me a free large T2 shield booster is useless? Personally I think 50 hp/s regen on top of a active shield booster is useful. 50 Hp/s give or take a bit depending on ship and active tank module layout. ô800mm Tempest with perfect skills should be about 800 DPS Pulse Geddon with perfect skills should be over 1000 DPSö But how much do those ships do after taking off resistance? ItÆs not like a ship has to regen the full 800 to 1000 DPS to survive. If you have a low 50% resistance thatÆs already lowered the hitpoint regen needed to survive down to 400 to 500. DonÆt most PvP people have more then 50% resistanceÆs? What about the PvE people donÆt they count in finding the skill useful and what about the amour tankers who took the skill to make there shields last a little longer? Then there are the people with the smaller ships some people do Curiser V Crusier e.c.t. Not everyone fights BS V BS and there is more to Eve then just PvP. I know PvP is a major part of Eve but so is PvE. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Lily Savage	Posted - 2005.05.05 15:00:00 - [53] On the subject of having an additional skill, rather than changing shield operation, how about doing something with Tactical Shield Manipulation (other than having it as a requirement for shield hardeners). Am I right in thinking that damage doesn't penetrate the shield at all, making the main bonus for this skill worthless? Change the bonus on that skill to -2% cap use instead.
Seraph Demon	Posted - 2005.05.05 15:18:00 - [54] omg! please don't do this TomB, that skill is 25% of my (already frail) passive tank! Add a new skill to give a shield boosting bonus (and add some for shield hardening bonuses while your at it)
Hyey	Posted - 2005.05.05 15:24:00 - [55] Edited by: Hyey on 05/05/2005 15:24:44 Originally by: Helmut 314 2. IF the shield gets stripped you still have an armor and a structure buffer This buffer you are talking about is more like paper thin cloth. If you are fighting anything that can actually break your tank before your cap runs out that armor and structure combined will last for about 6 seconds. When I first started level 4's for example I ended up waiting too long to warp out. I started warping out at 10% shields, shields gone... in about 3 seconds I was down to 30% armor, I was lined up previously but if I hadent have been... I would have died... fast. ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.05 15:27:00 - [56] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 05/05/2005 14:57:00 ôI can understand that you somehow like passive tanking for your style of gaming, but a large part of the people prefer active tanking and PvP. And I havent seen any decent passive tanking setup for PvP, cause it ruins your cap, which you really want to have running.ö Well first there are two methods of passive tanking and 1 method boosts your cap not kills it the other methods kills you cap regen but at the same time lowers the needed cap regen so you still come out ok. But my main point is I was talking about active tanking not passive. A typical active shield tank with PDS modules with the old skill gets around 50 hp/s () regen from the natural recharge. ThatÆs like having a free large T2 shield booster on all the time. So youÆre telling me a free large T2 shield booster is useless? Personally I think 50 hp/s regen on top of a active shield booster is useful. 50 Hp/s give or take a bit depending on ship and active tank module layout. ô800mm Tempest with perfect skills should be about 800 DPS Pulse Geddon with perfect skills should be over 1000 DPSö But how much do those ships do after taking off resistance? ItÆs not like a ship has to regen the full 800 to 1000 DPS to survive. If you have a low 50% resistance thatÆs already lowered the hitpoint regen needed to survive down to 400 to 500. DonÆt most PvP people have more then 50% resistanceÆs? What about the PvE people donÆt they count in finding the skill useful and what about the amour tankers who took the skill to make there shields last a little longer? Then there are the people with the smaller ships some people do Curiser V Crusier e.c.t. Not everyone fights BS V BS and there is more to Eve then just PvP. I know PvP is a major part of Eve but so is PvE. check my last words, and I never saw any decent boosting for my shields done by natural shield recharge. Every frig does more damage then my natural shield recharge can keep up. And all my opinions/statements are based on combat experience, nothing more. And I'm hardly a dedicated cruiser pilot, Tundragon is more knows as frigate sized force and cruiser users. At least I fight more in cruisers then in other ships. And most of the time it is just not worth to run a shield tank on a cruiser, neither the natural recharge rate is really helping you. Atm the problem is that ships do far more damage then the same classed ships can tank. And Im all into changing this skill, in my eyes this natural shield recharge should just get dropped Wanna fly with me?
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.05.05 16:02:00 - [57] This change is bad. Shield tanking is now more cap efficient than armor tanking. Let's compare numbers at lvl 5 skills. XLarge Shield Booster II + Shield boost Amp. need 230tf CPU, 550MW PG. 2x Large Armor Repairer II need 110tf CPU, 4600MW PG. The shield combo gives 780 shield every 5 seconds by using 360 cap, that's 156/72 [repaired/cap usage / second] while the armor tank gives 142/71.11. This expample shows us how normal tanks work, they would have about same resistances. The armor tank boosts less armor for same cap usage, so it's worse than shield boosting. On top if it comes that armor tanking's only advantage was its cap efficiency. Disadvantages are the long cycle time of 11.25 seconds (compared to 5 seconds on shield tanking) and that you have no buffer (only structure left) if you decide that you should leave the battlefield. You have boosted shield boosting so that it has all advantages you can have > unbalanced.
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.05 16:15:00 - [58] Originally by: XpoHoc This change is bad. Shield tanking is now more cap efficient than armor tanking. Let's compare numbers at lvl 5 skills. XLarge Shield Booster II + Shield boost Amp. need 230tf CPU, 550MW PG. 2x Large Armor Repairer II need 110tf CPU, 4600MW PG. The shield combo gives 780 shield every 5 seconds by using 360 cap, that's 156/72 [repaired/cap usage / second] while the armor tank gives 142/71.11. This expample shows us how normal tanks work, they would have about same resistances. The armor tank boosts less armor for same cap usage, so it's worse than shield boosting. On top if it comes that armor tanking's only advantage was its cap efficiency. Disadvantages are the long cycle time of 11.25 seconds (compared to 5 seconds on shield tanking) and that you have no buffer (only structure left) if you decide that you should leave the battlefield. You have boosted shield boosting so that it has all advantages you can have > unbalanced. Wow, one situation where shield tanking is better! OMG! Now look at medium vs medium and small vs small.
XpoHoc	Posted - 2005.05.05 16:21:00 - [59] Does everything needs to be unbalanced before it is worth changing? I don't have the time to go through all different sizes, I just made an example on the most used combination in game, which involves large modules.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.05 16:27:00 - [60] Edited by: Sobeseki Pawi on 05/05/2005 16:31:47 Edited by: Sobeseki Pawi on 05/05/2005 16:31:28 No, don't nerf the passive tank How about this instead: Shield Reinforcement Efficiency (rank 2): 3% cap use reduction in shield boosting per level. Surely that is reasonable and wont nerf one shield tank in favor of another. Popularity of one should't affect balance between the two. EDIT: Small omission corrected...and spelling... ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?

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