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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
196
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Posted - 2012.12.07 15:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Dread Operative wrote:Goddamn you United States military!. How is anybody supposed to get main battle tank fights if you can't drop them in via parachute? Thankfully we don't drive our MBT's all the way from the US to get fights. We use C-5 Galaxies and the Navy to "jump" them over the ocean to were the fighting is. Its a logistical thing. ;)
BAHAHAHA BURN!
QCATs is recruiting
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1236
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Posted - 2012.12.07 15:16:00 -
[32] - Quote
SAJUK NIGARRA wrote:Killing what comes trough the cyno works as a counter ?
Someone didn't read the post I linked, otherwise you wouldn't have implied that that's what I suggested.
Mane 614
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SAJUK NIGARRA
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
12
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Posted - 2012.12.07 15:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:SAJUK NIGARRA wrote:Killing what comes trough the cyno works as a counter ? Someone didn't read the post I linked, otherwise you wouldn't have implied that that's what I suggested.
I did read what you suggested. You suggested that the game mechanics should half kill it for you. |
Noisrevbus
306
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Posted - 2012.12.07 15:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
The thread got off to a good start but the OP end up a little narrowsighted as his post progresses.
I'll try to keep it short and sweet for once. What the OP missed is the same as most people missing. Killing the cyno (or other key ships as the bridge comes up) is perhaps the best underhanded (when others drop on you, you tend to become underhanded) option. While we do not have spool-up mechanics, yet, there are still several actions a bridging gang must take before they can begin to wrangle you in; besides attempting to pop the cyno and crossing your fingers.
The cyno goes up. The bridge goes up. The gang clicks. The gang loads grid and the gang begin targetting. While bridges can make short work out of you from a poor position, there is plenty of room for you to act from a good position.
Keep that in mind and keep killing those cynos (or whatever other soft targets pour in). Be out of bubble-range. Have a front-loaded highly offensive gang. Have proper control. Nothing is more ennerving for a bridged gang than losing cynos, or even getting on grid only to not wrestle immidiate control, maybe lose a few more support and then see the other gang slip away. It's even better if you counter-bait the bait and send something close enough to spring the trap - only to apply so much control that it gets out (keep it close, but aligned - peel it free and warp it off straight away as the cyno goes up). With a cyno up the cyno-ship is also locked in position, so if you can bait them to spring early you will force them to either come in anyway (just to save the cyno) or be able to poke at the cyno from a defensive position.
There are so many interesting details you can play around with, which are often forgotten because they are details. Important details however, which not enough people exploit to their advantage.
If the primary cyno is an Arazu or similar powerful yet expensive ship, the more effect that form of griefing tactic will have. If they switch to cheaper primary cynos you have far more manoueverable space and if they get more intricate themselves and utilize multiple bait (bait cyno with dictors at warp-points in system or w/e) it's both easier to read the situation and have required more effort on their side to setup - so it's more difficult to complain about it.
There are far more dynamics with bridging than people give credit to - because bridging usually involve gank-counter-gank situations where overconfident pilots have taken poor positions when the trap is sprung. Next, they complain. |
Kweechore Git
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.07 16:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Well, if you are having so much trouble surviving in lowsec to the point whereby you have to ask the enemy on how to counter their own tactics, maybe you should just:
A) Disband your alliance.
B) Go back to highsec.
C) Disband your alliance and go back to highsec.
D) Stop mining and start pvp'ing, as your propaganda claims your alliance is supposed to do.
E) Sell your Hulks and Rorquals and buy your own Titan(s), at which point I am pretty sure your tune will change dramatically.
Resisting the urge to merely play docking games and trying to ransom pods/ships you have yet to even tackle goes a long way to surviving in Aridia as well. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1237
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Posted - 2012.12.07 16:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
SAJUK NIGARRA wrote:I did read what you suggested. You suggested that the game mechanics should half kill it for you with the push of a single button.
That's not what I'm suggesting, but to be honest if you can't understand the difference between receiving a debuff and being half-dead then this conversation probably isn't going to be very productive for either of us.
Mane 614
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
661
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Posted - 2012.12.07 16:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Dread Operative wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Dread Operative wrote:Goddamn you United States military!. How is anybody supposed to get main battle tank fights if you can't drop them in via parachute? Thankfully we don't drive our MBT's all the way from the US to get fights. We use C-5 Galaxies and the Navy to "jump" them over the ocean to were the fighting is. Its a logistical thing. ;) BAHAHAHA BURN! Nobody parachutes MBTs directly into fights. In any case it was just a joke because Eve is a game and not reality. |
Frozen Eddie Johnson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2012.12.07 19:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Phi X wrote:all i hear is whinning
All I hear is a bunch of DnD people sucking each other off. |
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1320
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Posted - 2012.12.08 04:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
I've removed some off topic posts. Please keep it civil and on topic. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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GenesisMike
Tri-gun
C0NVICTED
41
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Posted - 2012.12.10 10:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
1) Jumping through gates is for peasants.
2) Italics are awesome.
3) If you aren't capable of adapting you are playing the wrong game.
Mike |
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Anemonae Ambrosia
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Late Night Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.12.12 00:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
SAJUK NIGARRA wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:A little while back, I made a suggestion on the "Ideas for new modules" thread in Features & Ideas Discussion for a "cyno poisoner" module that you can deploy onto a cynosural field and it causes funky (and universally unpleasant) stuff to happen to anyone who tries to gate through the cyno. I think this'd work as a counter. Killing what comes trough the cyno works as a counter ? Scouting what could come trough works as a counter ? Killing the cyno before all of them load grid works as a counter ? You just want a little "I'm safe" module because you you lack the competence to implement any of the exising ig counters. What in god's name makes you think a dice roll module is a good ideea ? Not knowing how the next fight will unfold and trying to guess it's one of the best things about eve (and trust me, I've been on the reciving end more than once).
Killing stuff that jumps would suck, however something that let you disrupt the cyno and caused all ships jumping to it to arrive at random points in system could be cool. Just wind up scattering the fleet that attempted to drop on you would be a counter. However it would be a balancing nightmare. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
285
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Posted - 2012.12.12 01:10:00 -
[42] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:If you can't build it in low sec, then you shouldn't be able to field it in low sec.
In a perfect world this would be true, of course it will never happen. Maybe a better option would create a risk vs reward factor for Titian bridges. Right now there is little to no risk for the fleets that are bridged other than being counter dropped which is unlikely to happen given how fast an entire fleet can be bridged on some unsuspecting small gang with just a few ships.
I watched your buddies from DnD bridge on a carrier one night in Kinakka and the carrier was dead in under 30 or 40 seconds. Meaning there is little to no time for a counter in how Titian bridges are often used in low sec.
I'm sure in CCP's grand scheme they intended these ships to bridge gangs into ongoing battles and not just used as gank toys for risk adverse PVP in low sec.
One solution that might allow a bit of a nerf and add at least a minor amount of "risk" would be to make any ship that uses the Titian's bridge zero out it's capacitor when it uses that bridge. This still allows a wow or surprise advantage, but also adds a bit of risk into the mix as the bridged fleet will have a few moments where they needed to regain their ship's cap in order to fight.
I don't think Titian's are totally out of place in EVE but they have become far to common when just about anyone can get them and bridge on top of anything with little concern of risking much of anything. It should also cost a hell of a lot more for the fuel. Say 50-100 mil per bridge use. Meaning it should be a notable cost, which could act as a determent in it's own right to being overly spammy with bridging. |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
382
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Posted - 2012.12.12 10:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:
I watched your buddies from DnD bridge on a carrier one night in Kinakka and the carrier was dead in under 30 or 40 seconds. Meaning there is little to no time for a counter in how Titian bridges are often used in low sec.
Well, we had dreads on field for 5 minutes, and a cyno up for 10.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13775106 |
SAJUK NIGARRA
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
12
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Posted - 2012.12.12 13:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Mutnin wrote:
I watched your buddies from DnD bridge on a carrier one night in Kinakka and the carrier was dead in under 30 or 40 seconds. Meaning there is little to no time for a counter in how Titian bridges are often used in low sec.
Well, we had dreads on field for 5 minutes, and a cyno up for 10. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=13775106
Also it's the dreads that killed the carrier, so even with no titan bridging the carrier would've still been dead, just that we wouldn't have had subcap support for the dreads in case things went **** up. So yeah, all in all, bad example. |
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
200
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Posted - 2012.12.12 16:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
SOTF is a lot of things  , but they are NOT risk adverse, I've rolled with them and the amount isk they field is fairly sick and they wont hesitate to deploy that isk against even or greater odds. And we all do ganks, its how most of us fill the gaps between the gudfites.
Mutnin wrote:
I'm sure in CCP's grand scheme they intended these ships to bridge gangs into ongoing battles and not just used as gank toys for risk adverse PVP in low sec.
QCATs is recruiting
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180 |
Andre Vauban
Quantum Cats Syndicate
43
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Posted - 2012.12.12 17:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:X Gallentius wrote:If you can't build it in low sec, then you shouldn't be able to field it in low sec. In a perfect world this would be true, of course it will never happen. Maybe a better option would create a risk vs reward factor for Titian bridges. Right now there is little to no risk for the fleets that are bridged other than being counter dropped which is unlikely to happen given how fast an entire fleet can be bridged on some unsuspecting small gang with just a few ships. I watched your buddies from DnD bridge on a carrier one night in Kinakka and the carrier was dead in under 30 or 40 seconds. Meaning there is little to no time for a counter in how Titian bridges are often used in low sec. I'm sure in CCP's grand scheme they intended these ships to bridge gangs into ongoing battles and not just used as gank toys for risk adverse PVP in low sec. One solution that might allow a bit of a nerf and add at least a minor amount of "risk" would be to make any ship that uses the Titian's bridge zero out it's capacitor when it uses that bridge. This still allows a wow or surprise advantage, but also adds a bit of risk into the mix as the bridged fleet will have a few moments where they needed to regain their ship's cap in order to fight. I don't think Titian's are totally out of place in EVE but they have become far to common when just about anyone can get them and bridge on top of anything with little concern of risking much of anything. It should also cost a hell of a lot more for the fuel. Say 50-100 mil per bridge use. Meaning it should be a notable cost, which could act as a determent in it's own right to being overly spammy with bridging.
Increasing fuel cost won't do anything. The problem is really one of force projection being too great for those with Titan(s). The way to fix it is straight forward, but it vastly effects null sec coalitions so it won't happen.
Here is the fix:
You need to introduce two new variables that need to be checked whenever a pilot makes a cyno jump, is bridged, or uses a jump bridge. The first is new timer called the "cyno jump timer". This timer is similar to the jump clone timer, but its only an hour or two. The second is simply the "last system jumped from". Whenver a pilot jumps to a cyno beacon, uses a titan bridge, or uses a jump bridge the system first checks the "cyno jump timer". If the timer is 0, then jump according to existing rules and then set the "cyno jump timer" to 1-2 hours and set the "last system jumped from" to this system. If the timer is not 0, then check the distance in AU between the destination system and the "last system jumped from". If the distance is greater than 15AU you cannot jump or bridge.
At this point, you effectively limit the sphere of influece of a single pilot to a 30AU diameter. They can control that area of space, but cannot go outside that area unless they give up the ability to protect that space for a few hours. At this point we will no longer have entities running around the universe ganking stuff for ***** aand giggles unless they have the pilots to perform multiple operations at once.
Problem solved. If you get dropped from here on out, it is because somebody bigger and better than you has moved into your area of space.
QCATS is recruiting
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=146180
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Sheynan
Lighting the blight
157
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Posted - 2012.12.12 18:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
The most glaring issue I see with titan bridges is that a small-medium sized gang is rarely able to kill the cyno ship in time before a substantial amount of enemies has jumped through.
Therefor the cyno should have a reasonable delay timer. Ships can only start jumping after the timer is over.
This would require a stronger presence (and thus risk) on the battlefield for the titandropping group to support the cyno (or several) and let them survive until the bridge opens, but also keep tackle on the enemy fleet that might use these precious seconds to escape. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
858
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Posted - 2012.12.13 11:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
The only thing still surprising is the fact how some still defend current cyno mechanics, suitable for ganktards only. Simply amazing.
14 |
Frozen Eddie Johnson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2012.12.14 00:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:The only thing still surprising is the fact how some still defend current cyno mechanics, suitable for ganktards only. Simply amazing.
Two thirds of the posters in this thread are from the alliance whose entire meaning of existance seems to be to abuse this mechanic, so its not all that surprising. |
Dread Operative
Quantum Cats Syndicate
44
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Posted - 2012.12.14 01:50:00 -
[50] - Quote
Frozen Eddie Johnson wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:The only thing still surprising is the fact how some still defend current cyno mechanics, suitable for ganktards only. Simply amazing. Two thirds of the posters in this thread are from the alliance whose entire meaning of existance seems to be to abuse this mechanic, so its not all that surprising.
You mad bro? You seem mad bro. |
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Dibblerette
The Phantom Regiment
THE ROYAL NAVY
105
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Posted - 2012.12.14 08:11:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Frozen Eddie Johnson wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:The only thing still surprising is the fact how some still defend current cyno mechanics, suitable for ganktards only. Simply amazing. Two thirds of the posters in this thread are from the alliance whose entire meaning of existance seems to be to abuse this mechanic, so its not all that surprising. You mad bro? You seem mad bro.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Honestly, I do think capitals, cynos and bridges need a look as a whole. I don't claim to be creative enough to come up with an alternate system, but I'm sure we can all agree to hate on whatever CCP decides to change. Whatever the case, being able to circumvent traditional paths via titan in a region where the only other method of doing so is your own titan, cloakies with a Black Ops BS, or an incredibly lucky wormhole, is a very powerful tool.
Hell, if it's powerful in nullsec where you can do something about it, and field a lesser but fuctionally similar variant (jumpbridges) exists, it might need a little balancing in a region where you can only try to mitigate damage after the deed is done.
On a side note, one fun idea I heard was that a titan bridge should turn the target cyno into a sort of wormhole. This would force the bridged force to defend until the cyno spooled down (generally what they already do, but only really afraid of enemy capitals/BS), in case some plucky ceptor pilot charges back through the hole and pops another cyno on the titan. Maybe this only works this way in lowsec, and 0.0 remains the same. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc.
BricK sQuAD.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.14 10:49:00 -
[52] - Quote
> Reduce the bridge range
> Ships inside a FF cannot jump, bridge or be bridged
> the timer proposition sounds interesting too
Tada !
I'm curious what will happen with the forcefield-less POS that are coming next year.
I like how the titan-hugger are claiming that titan-bridging is fine (it's okay dude, me too I hug a titan sometimes). Please tell me how many bridge-titan died in EVE ? A very few. All of them died due to a pilot mistake (jumping instead of bridging like Progod "Darwin award" Legend, and some bumped out of the FF because the password was leaked).
As long as the titan itself is not at risk, bridging will stay an overpowered, unfunny tool. And any 'tard claiming that "the staging POS can be destroyed !1!!!!!" is just a troll knowing that a large tower is a pity to be destroyed, is very cheap and the titan will always escape. |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
384
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7AOyDFzzng
Probably one of the best fights ive been in was facilitated by titan bridges.
All parties will have had eyes on each others titans and they were simply used to get the fight started and keep it going.
If you keep falling for cyno bait, consider that a lesson in situational awareness. I know a guy who lost 6bn isk to a cov ops cyno the yesterday. Black Ops can bridge out of high sec, should they be nerfed too?
All this talk of nerfing bridges is highly partisan. Namely, the parties without them want them nerfed lol. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc.
BricK sQuAD.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Namely, the parties without them want them nerfed lol. Got the toy, still think it's bad for the game. |
Crosi Wesdo
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
384
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Posted - 2012.12.14 11:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
Reppyk wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Namely, the parties without them want them nerfed lol. Got the toy, still think it's bad for the game.
I dont think you can speak for a significant fraction of bridge users. |
Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc.
BricK sQuAD.
222
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Posted - 2012.12.14 12:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:I dont think you can speak for a significant fraction of bridge users. At least I can speak for the last 4 lowsec regions where I lived and saw a huge decrease in the number of roaming gangs, as everything became more and more blob-hotdropped... |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
858
|
Posted - 2012.12.14 13:23:00 -
[57] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
If you keep falling for cyno bait, consider that a lesson in situational awareness. I know a guy who lost 6bn isk to a cov ops cyno the yesterday. Black Ops can bridge out of high sec, should they be nerfed too?
Black Ops? Likely, no. Ganktarded cyno mechanics? Hell, yeah!
Speaking of huge slug-fests which became possible solely (?) cause of bridges. The very damn point is in limiting ganktarded cynoes for ganks while leaving them pretty much as-is for blobs, in which they are - suprise, suprise - fine already. This can be done via multiple ways, including those I mentioned during my CSM campaign. For instance, it's surely possible to separate cyno generators into severtal groups and make the most blobby one (of little to no delay/penalties) applicable only to POS environment (making it impossible to activate it if POS is not present in the grid). If you want to lit cynoes at gates and shoot fish in the barrel, then sucks to be you - your new cyno will have a significant spool-up timer and/or will impose some penalties onto ships jumping through it.
It's really very simple, the only thing lacking is mere WILL.
CCP is not into small-scale PvP all that much (recent event proves their scale of combat is very blobtastic) and thus they show little desire to change things outside of blob environment.
14 |
Torijace
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
1
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Posted - 2012.12.14 18:18:00 -
[58] - Quote
I like the idea of a wormhole generator that generates an opening in both directions, It could allow for some pretty awesome fights on poses. Also why do titans need to bridge inside pos shields? seems like a strange mod to be allowed to activate in complete safety |
Tekitha
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
73
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Posted - 2012.12.14 18:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Torijace wrote:. Also why do titans need to bridge inside pos shields? seems like a strange mod to be allowed to activate in complete safety
Because the alternative is losing a 120billion isk ship everytime you try and use it. Every single lowsec bridging Titan is watchlisted by 100s of pilots, even moving one (whereby it's vulnerable for ~1 minute) is pretty risky business.
There are just too many clueless people posting in this thread for it to be constructive. I will say this tho, pretty much all the people posting about nerfing bridging in here are the kind of playrs that prefer small ships and small gangs, well guess what? ... Titans barely affect your playstyle, so why even bother worrying about it. I could even turn this around and say "it's too easy for BC and below to escape the field before the bridged ships can even load grid QQ. Triple align times and make grid loading faster please so I can bridge more destroyer gangs, kkthnx"
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Tekitha
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
73
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Posted - 2012.12.14 18:50:00 -
[60] - Quote
Dibblerette wrote:
On a side note, one fun idea I heard was that a titan bridge should turn the target cyno into a sort of wormhole. This would force the bridged force to defend until the cyno spooled down (generally what they already do, but only really afraid of enemy capitals/BS), in case some plucky ceptor pilot charges back through the hole and pops another cyno on the titan. Maybe this only works this way in lowsec, and 0.0 remains the same.
Are you suggesting the wormhole puts ships back into the pos (whereby hostile ships will be ejected immediately) or outside the pos (whereby they will be ripped apart by pos defenses), either way, thanks for the free extraction .. +1 for this idea.
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