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Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers Templis Dragonaors
2
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Posted - 2012.12.06 15:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
What I cannot understand is how, according to base manufacturing requirements, a hurricane (for example) is more expensive to build than it is to buy?
I priced the build cost at roughly 57M Jita market prices are 45M, how can this be?
I have a sense that this game is: A) economy being controlled by large conglomerates (such as the CFC, where the "Union" has about 70K+ players); B) pushing people to buy plexes or gtc (cash cow for ccp); and C) the market is being manipulated (my hunch).
Way back in the day (yes, I've been playing longer than I've been married), there used to be some economics professor that had some weight into the eve economy, what happened to them? What would they say about the markets now?
I can, from my years of observations, say this game has become a "griefers" game where you can't casually play (for those who work 40+hrs a week) and the price to pvp has outpaced what one could earn through mission running. Highsec is lawless (as compared to what it used to be) and loot thieves make it financially improbable to take full advantage of mission running.
I have the sense to think that CCP want's you to buy more than one account, they want you to buy plexes/gtcs to keep up with the inflation of pvp, and there is no motive to change it.
I am absolutely interested in reading an analysis on what the community feels is driving the economy (good or bad); in my opinion in a trajectory that will eventually be unsustainable.
my $.02 worth |
enterprisePSI
133
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Posted - 2012.12.06 15:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
first to the fountain of delicious tears. The tears of the many, outweight the tears of the few. Or the one. enterprise-psi-¬
I made tweet, Y U NO FOLLOW!!! |
Ruvin
28
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dont build hurricanes ? At the moment ? Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
Master Gotama
Black Sky Hipsters
11
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
seems like an opportunity to me. buy hurricane at $45M, reprocess and sell mins at $57M. profit?!? |
Ruvin
28
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Master Gotama wrote:seems like an opportunity to me. buy hurricane at $45M, reprocess and sell mins at $57M. profit?!?
If he figured out how to make one , he should be able to reprocess one aswell :| Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
751
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
you say that like minerals have always been the price they are now... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers Templis Dragonaors
2
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
as usual, people cant stay on topic; perhaps it's what happens when you spend too much time playing a game. I am specifically interested in the market facts and community theories, not a side bar conversation on missed opportunities and such. |
Ruvin
28
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
What teories ?
Ppl are making new ships and drones , and those sell for 1000% mineral price . So the stuff which was build before 4 dec has its "old" price .
Youre aware of the Retribution expansion ? Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
350
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Posted - 2012.12.06 16:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks. |
Master Gotama
Black Sky Hipsters
12
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
Knownasthatguy wrote:as usual, people cant stay on topic; perhaps it's what happens when you spend too much time playing a game. I am specifically interested in the market facts and community theories, not a side bar conversation on missed opportunities and such.
so why don't you write up an analysis for us to critique? this isn't standard & poors, nobody's gonna spit out an economic analysis of EVE mineral and module markets based on your curiosity alone. give us something meaningful to consider, rather than rumor and conjecture, and you might spur a lively discussion. otherwise, be happy anyone's even responding to your little poast. cheers. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
839
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks.
? Stealth nerfed?
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
350
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks. ? Stealth nerfed?
Do I really need to spell it out for you?
Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge. They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
839
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks. ? Stealth nerfed? Do I really need to spell it out for you? Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge. They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.
Ahh. I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I understand what you mean.
Short version, because I'm not looking for an argument: It's not a nerf, because there is no /reduction/ in the materials you get back. Just an increase in what you have to put in.
While I might be wrong, I don't think reprocessing of this kind of thing isn't a major mineral transfer point. No numbers on it though. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
42
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Posted - 2012.12.06 17:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).
Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.
If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.
So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be. |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
38
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Posted - 2012.12.06 18:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Toroup wrote:So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).
Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.
If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.
So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be.
In our region at the moment Retrievers seem to be back to normal. Cheaper to make than to buy. Mercenary Massacre 2012 (12/9/2012)
I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same. - arramdaywalker |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2147
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 18:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks.
Yes, as I posted some (maybe just 1) days ago, even Genesis and other butt holes have all their belts totally stripped, even station-less systems and this despite the roids ATM are repopping every day.
Was about time: trending markets = PROFIT! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
43
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Posted - 2012.12.06 18:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Darenthul wrote:Toroup wrote:So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).
Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.
If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.
So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be. In our region at the moment Retrievers seem to be back to normal. Cheaper to make than to buy.
Jita low sell right now is 23.9M so it's still pretty off in The Forge. I think that build is something like 32-33M. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
663
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Posted - 2012.12.06 19:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks. ? Stealth nerfed? Do I really need to spell it out for you? Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge. They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result.
Look at it the way we are. The lack of the ability for the market to respond to short term spikes in minerals through mass reproc means that it will be more manipulable. It adds more player driven content possibilities. Though it does indeed nerf a "profession". Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
237
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 20:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
What is the reprocessing mineral return % of the total build cost for a Hurricane now? |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
387
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 00:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
You guys are getting off topic here. The issue is that Goons are forcing us to buy PLEX by selling us what we want to buy at below cost. Missions are impossible to run because of people looting and I'm pretty sure he said the market is dying. I've never heard of "building requirements" before, I assume that is a made up term to hide the massive conspiracy against the OP. |
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
351
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Posted - 2012.12.07 03:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Skydell wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Skydell wrote:As more and more stuff gets stealth nerfed to 40% reproc, it will only get worse.
Our 'emergent' game play 'emerges' when a new patch comes out. While I do agree with you on manipulation, it's broader and doesn't really apply in the case of minerals. I'd speculate and say we are just now running out of drone region stocks. ? Stealth nerfed? Do I really need to spell it out for you? Reproc a cruiser, reproc a Barge. They don't reproc at 90% of build. They reproc at 40% because they modified the build costs and kept reproc at old values to keep people from creating minerals. A short term fix with a long term nerf as a result. Ahh. I see your point. I don't agree with it, but I understand what you mean. Short version, because I'm not looking for an argument: It's not a nerf, because there is no /reduction/ in the materials you get back. Just an increase in what you have to put in. While I might be wrong, I don't think reprocessing of this kind of thing isn't a major mineral transfer point. No numbers on it though.
It's only a nerf if you have a large fleet of something. By example, if I owned 2000 Exec because I liked the 900 M3 base cargo and decide to ditch them now that its a logi boat, I can't reproc them to build a new fleet. Not at a reasonable return.
It will hurt more if they follow trend and do the same with BC and Battleships. Imagine your alliance has 20,000 Drakes for reimbursement and a change in doctrine turns those in to 8000 Drakes by reproc. |
Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers Templis Dragonaors
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 05:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Toroup wrote:So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).
Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.
If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.
So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be.
The interesting thing here is being able to clearly identify the intersect on the slope where cost of "pvp" exceeds player income. If it's more expensive to build the ships (buying ore from miners or off market) than buying off the market, then where are the income streams to keep pace with inflation?
Does the game offer income opportunities (missions and such) to keep up with inflation, on an individual basis, or is everyone going to have to be in some large alliance in nullsec or pushed to wh space? Is this game fundamentally being changed into one where the player is required to spend more and more time online to grind isk? I would hate to see this game turn into a "larger fish in the pond" scenario where all the little guys get eaten up.
Does anyone know what CCP brings in on GTCs every month? |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
351
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 06:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
The game has been a grind your guts out game for most players for a while. It isn't the only game to be pure gear grind but it's one of the most intense. |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 11:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think the OP is confused ..the title asks what is happening to mineral prices but he complains about the build costs of a particular ship..
Based on the trends on the last week mineral prices look like they're starting to come back down to where they were a month or so ago, no that the spike caused by people buying them like crazy to build cruisers pre-patch has burst.
Perhaps the OP should pay more attention to the market.... an analysis would show how many cruisers are now selling at below production cost, and as posted on another thread there are toons out there that have thousands of crusiers, so this situation is likely to remain well into 2014.. |
Darenthul
SUPERIOR RESOURCES
71
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 17:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Toroup wrote:Darenthul wrote:Toroup wrote:So much missing information here (I particularly love the first reply about tears - which is less than worthless).
Mineral requirements for the Hurricane increased with the last patch so what everyone did was run a crap load of prepatch Hurricanes at the lower requirements and flooded the market. The same thing happened with mining barges last patch. I think that Retrievers are still selling for lower than the build value because of the backlog.
If you buy one now and reprocess it, it will reprocess at the original mineral value and not the higher amount - the missing materials are considered "extra" - this was done so that people couldn't make a ton of them prepatach and then make isk reprocessing them.
So, long answer to a short question, building new Hurricanes now will be a loss. The price will increase as the flooded market is bought out but there is no telling how long that will be. In our region at the moment Retrievers seem to be back to normal. Cheaper to make than to buy. Jita low sell right now is 23.9M so it's still pretty off in The Forge. I think that build is something like 32-33M.
That's crazy, maybe I should just go buy a bunch of and bring them out instead. Mercenary Massacre 2012 (12/9/2012)
I find mining to be an incredibly relaxing thing to do after work. It's like fishing without waking up early. Or cold. But the beer, the beer is the same. - arramdaywalker |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1228
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost". http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers Templis Dragonaors
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 22:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:I think the OP is confused ..the title asks what is happening to mineral prices but he complains about the build costs of a particular ship..
Based on the trends on the last week mineral prices look like they're starting to come back down to where they were a month or so ago, no that the spike caused by people buying them like crazy to build cruisers pre-patch has burst.
Perhaps the OP should pay more attention to the market.... an analysis would show how many cruisers are now selling at below production cost, and as posted on another thread there are toons out there that have thousands of crusiers, so this situation is likely to remain well into 2014..
Nevryn, Please excuse yourserlf from this conversation if all you have to offer are comments that don't push the conversation forward. Back in 2007 and 2008, Trit had a trend line that floated around 2 - 3 isk/unit. Today it's almost double that. My forum post is to gain insight to a seemingly open markt pushed by game consumers (player base) yielding what seems to be a market trend that outpaces player income (earned thru the game, not GTCs) . Is there truely a larger consumer base for pvp goods than suppliers of said goods? Is the mere fact that someone can spend out of game cash for in game isk making this a suppliers market, because people can and will afford more "shinny ships"?
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Knownasthatguy
Short Bus Pole Dancers Templis Dragonaors
2
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Posted - 2012.12.08 22:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost".
Is there an eve population density map that shows where most players are at (out of game that is)? |
Ruvin
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 22:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Knownasthatguy wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:If you put up buy orders for minerals in out of the way systems you can get them for a much lower cost than their value at trade hubs. Build stuff from those minerals and sell, and you can make isk even if it looks like you are selling "under cost". Is there an eve population density map that shows where most players are at (out of game that is)?
yes f10 , galaxy map and population in space regions or so on . Opportunities multiply as they are seized. |
Andres Talas
Occupational Hazzard Get Off My Lawn
6
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Posted - 2012.12.09 00:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Knownasthatguy wrote:[
Nevryn, Is there truely a larger consumer base for pvp goods than suppliers of said goods? Is the mere fact that someone can spend out of game cash for in game isk making this a suppliers market, because people can and will afford more "shinny ships"?
More players have more skill points letting them farm isk faster. These same players want to fly bigger and shinier ships.
These players do not want to mine trit. |
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