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White Sorceress
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yes man, I have been running complexes when you all were a small babies. Yes man, I am not rich person in real life and I used to pay for my account running complexes and also that was the way I was making isk for pvp from time to time. Since you nerfed the ratio of dropping expensive stuff (like x-shield boosters) and replaced them with nothing just like 23' effects and nothing more this all resulted just in wasting more time running/searching complexes to can pay all that needs to be paid. But hey, I learned to live with that. BUT IT IS ALL OVER NOW. !!!
CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).
So here is the way most people (including myself) run complexes. We have cloaky T3, that can probe + run through bubble (nullifier subsystem) + tank the complex of any difficulty. Once we find it and probe it, we return back to scout the way for our dps dealers (ships that are fitted to fly fast and deal maximum dps). Then we always warp in in our T3 tank tengu and once we get full agro, damage dealers are called in and their start killing npc. This usually takes 1 hour to finish 10/10 complex in angel space, doing over 1500 dps. THE KEY of success of this we have very expensively fitted T3 that can tank even the last room where is the boss or station firing citadel torpedoes. The T3 is able to tank it, but in exchange of not having any guns. Saved CPU and PG you can use for extra x-large shield booster instead of large shield booster and that allowes you to tank even last room including final boss / station. AND THIS IS OVER. WHY? Because npc are now swtiching targets. There is not any single ship that can deal intelligent amount of dps, is fast enough, has good enough range of guns and can have tank over 1k dps that is needed for all rooms except the last room. And even if you use some damn expensive marauder like Vargur, use the best dead space fit (gist x type) and waste like 5 billion on it, it still can not tank last boss, who is switching target as well and once you would warp in the last room in vargur (battleship class) it will immediately switch to bigger target from tengu. No need to mendtion that we fly in enemy territory and moving 5b vargur throught enemy systems is not easy thing. Especially when you hit some good drop like 1 time from 10, so it's almost no worth.
I have been living in querious for pretty long time, running blood raiders complexes every day. Now I can give awesome tip to all market guys, go and buy all bhaalgorns blueprint u can find, because their price will increase dramatically. WHY? Because nobody will be able to run 10/10 complex in blood raider space since now. The final station deals HUGE emount of DPS that only very high specialized ship can survive. Yes man, it's passively tanked loki with over 97% rezistance to EM damage. Anything else, even with logistics behind will just pop. So only way to find bhaalgorns now will be some lucky drop from 8/10 or 7/10. Good luck in doing that. I got bhaalgorn ONE TIME from 7/10 and I have done like 50 of them.
NEW NPC AI completely changes complexes. IT's almost impossible to run any of them, especially 10/10 or 8/10. Switching targets simply makes it impossible. I personally don't have 3b to get some high specialized marauder. I don't have time and patience to run missions in high sec making 20-30M/hour. I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!
I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.
Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down ! |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
321
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
u mad |
Dilligafmofo
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
132
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 08:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
hey complex expert... man.
try adapting to the changes instead of dismissing them out of hand. Just because you can't do things how you used to, doesn't mean it's broken. It just means you are too stupid to adapt, yet.
|
Funky Lazers
Shin-Ra Ltd
47
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 09:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote:Yes man, I have been running complexes when you all were a small babies. Yes man, I am not rich person in real life and I used to pay for my account running complexes and also that was the way I was making isk for pvp from time to time. Since you nerfed the ratio of dropping expensive stuff (like x-shield boosters) and replaced them with nothing just like 23' effects and nothing more this all resulted just in wasting more time running/searching complexes to can pay all that needs to be paid. But hey, I learned to live with that. BUT IT IS ALL OVER NOW. !!!
CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).
So here is the way most people (including myself) run complexes. We have cloaky T3, that can probe + run through bubble (nullifier subsystem) + tank the complex of any difficulty. Once we find it and probe it, we return back to scout the way for our dps dealers (ships that are fitted to fly fast and deal maximum dps). Then we always warp in in our T3 tank tengu and once we get full agro, damage dealers are called in and their start killing npc. This usually takes 1 hour to finish 10/10 complex in angel space, doing over 1500 dps. THE KEY of success of this we have very expensively fitted T3 that can tank even the last room where is the boss or station firing citadel torpedoes. The T3 is able to tank it, but in exchange of not having any guns. Saved CPU and PG you can use for extra x-large shield booster instead of large shield booster and that allowes you to tank even last room including final boss / station. AND THIS IS OVER. WHY? Because npc are now swtiching targets. There is not any single ship that can deal intelligent amount of dps, is fast enough, has good enough range of guns and can have tank over 1k dps that is needed for all rooms except the last room. And even if you use some damn expensive marauder like Vargur, use the best dead space fit (gist x type) and waste like 5 billion on it, it still can not tank last boss, who is switching target as well and once you would warp in the last room in vargur (battleship class) it will immediately switch to bigger target from tengu. No need to mendtion that we fly in enemy territory and moving 5b vargur throught enemy systems is not easy thing. Especially when you hit some good drop like 1 time from 10, so it's almost no worth.
I have been living in querious for pretty long time, running blood raiders complexes every day. Now I can give awesome tip to all market guys, go and buy all bhaalgorns blueprint u can find, because their price will increase dramatically. WHY? Because nobody will be able to run 10/10 complex in blood raider space since now. The final station deals HUGE emount of DPS that only very high specialized ship can survive. Yes man, it's passively tanked loki with over 97% rezistance to EM damage. Anything else, even with logistics behind will just pop. So only way to find bhaalgorns now will be some lucky drop from 8/10 or 7/10. Good luck in doing that. I got bhaalgorn ONE TIME from 7/10 and I have done like 50 of them.
NEW NPC AI completely changes complexes. IT's almost impossible to run any of them, especially 10/10 or 8/10. Switching targets simply makes it impossible. I personally don't have 3b to get some high specialized marauder. I don't have time and patience to run missions in high sec making 20-30M/hour. I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!
I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.
Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down !
Yes man! I agree. For some reason I can feel your pain.
"Adapt" - means you have to stop using the ship you like and start flying Drake or Tengu like the rest nullbear newbs. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
492
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
once again, captain caps lock has saved the day....
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 10:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
It is a good change.
If you are afraid of bhalgorn bpc going up , well it will make worth it to run complexes in group not solo which is only a good thing. I applause changes to the AI. It could be even better and more deadly.
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dexington
Push button receive bacon
258
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote:I personally don't have 3b...
You claim to be some expert in exploration, yet you are space poor... something don't add up there...
I'm doing hi/low sec exploration solo in a T1 battlecruiser, with anything above 5/10 out of my reach, and it seems i'm making more isk then you. I started doing exploration in a new area 2 months ago with some 100M isk to spend, now i have 2-3B i assist, i have given away 1B to friends and i have some 5B in isk and market orders.
Maybe you are just not as good at this game as you think you are... GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
231
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
dexington wrote:White Sorceress wrote:I personally don't have 3b... You claim to be some expert in exploration, yet you are space poor... something don't add up there...
Those who do tend not to rant.
I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
944
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 11:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hey AAA, arent you meant to be taking over Wh space or something for isk farming? Would have though youd moved on from crappy plexs...
seriously tho, lrn2spidertank |
Caldari Citizen20121206
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 12:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hey, this is nearly the same topic as mine. The only solution that i found to make complexes like this is going with 2 guardians and armor battleships, or a single pimp fitted vindicator (1800dps). I was doing complexes in stain (sansha npc) and im a billionarie so i can afford to bring this kind of equipment to a ded site, but most of us cant. As you can guess this whole change is only bringing money to my own personal kitchen since in the region i live i know maybe 3-4 pilots who have 2 LOGI V alts, making the value of the site go up and my chances of making a site more likely. BUT im not happy with it, beacause i think it is unfair to make people train their alts for 2-3 months and invest billions just because ccp wanted to make more "options" in PVE. This whole change to AI narrows the way to make complexes to like 2-3 solutions.
Dont let me make unfair amounts of money, let the new and casual pilots have some money too... |
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stoicfaux
1838
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 13:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
I think what the OP is saying is that some missions will in fact need to be rebalanced, the most egregious example being the EM Torpedo of Doom. Or CCP will have to admit to players that no matter what you do, your fleet *will* lose a ship to that uber torpedo.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
|
White Sorceress
The Dark Tribe Against ALL Authorities
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
1. This has nothing to do with AAA. This is my freedom decision to write here. So post about moving AAA to WH is really out of this. Also income from running complexes is much higher than harvesting C320 in WH space. I have been doing that for two years so I believe I know very well that I am saying. 2. I am not billionaire because I am fully working person and I work 12-16 hours every day 6 days per week. If you are making billions in battlecruiser in low sec trust me you would be many times richer if you would spend same amount of time running complexes in null sec. 3. When I get some nice drop I don't save it to have nice budget but I buy pvp ships and go to do some pvp because that's what I love abut this game. PVP 4. Mr. ADAPT. Please show me here some exact strategy you would use to finish 10/10 angels shypiard. I really want to see your "adapt to new situation". Maybe you are better than me, or simply as most people, you are just forum warrior who knows everything but in real game he knows nothing. As I said it's impossible to use any ship that is not worth of 4b (including fit obviously) that would be able to tank last room. 5. Making complexes is group is not solution. You can definitelly tank all rooms except the last one. Rooms before the last is just joke and you don'tt need high rezistance / buffer so can survive it before you friend will put remotes on you and save you. But even if you have 20 man fleet. That citadel torpedo in blood raider space is ONE SHOT ONE KILL. Doesn't matter how many remotes u have got there. 6. There is difference between make it harder and make it impossible. And yes I am saying 10/10 becomes impossible. 7. Also maybe some of you do not realize that finishing 10/10 takes in angel space 1 hour with 1500 DPS and very well fitted ship for that (fast, good tracking, drones, huge dps). Now imagine you have ship able to survive even last room but you are dealing 500 DPS (tengu, HAM legion). So you are suppousted to make 10/10 for 3 hours. Good luck if you survive long enough and nobody wil probe you down and try to kill you. |
Bobbechk
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Try joining an Alliance with access to sovereignty space
That way you don't have to bring throw away glasscannon ships behind enemy lines to do the job of a proper fleet
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
549
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
While the op might be a bit over the top, the "really smart" people replying to him have no clue about what they are talking about.
Here, let me help you:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Blood_Raider_Naval_Shipyard
Quote: Final room
20 battleships many of which will drain your capacitor. 10 cruisers 15 frigates some of which will warp scramble, web and tracking disrupt you. 8 stasis towers 6 point defense batteries 4 cruise missile batteries
Blood Raider Fleet Stronghold
For people bad at math that's 64 things in there that will shoot and EWAR you, full room aggro as soon as you land (not a bug, it's always been that way).
The stronghold shoots a torp at you that can insta-pop battleships. If you look back at the forum thread for the "Brain nom nom" dev blog about the npc AI changes, you will see that I specifically mentioned this complex several times, I even asked the CCP DEVs specifically if they had tested it, to which the never replied.
This 10/10 isn't a matter of "bring more people" or "figure it out", and it's not just the torp that is the issue. Dark Blood Fleet Staging point 3 shoots the same torp at you as well, I just last night tanked that in a Rattlesnake orbiting the torp chucker station at 60km while my machariel killed everything else then the station (it's a VERY good thing at least that CCP decided to not apply the new AI to overseers and turrets, in fleet staging point 3 you can get the overseer and neuts on your tank ship and the dps ship only needs to worry about the rest of the room).
No, the 10/10 is a different beast because of those ships and towers. Complexes like BRNS should have been re-done BEFORE new AI was applied to it and several of us told CCP this over and over and over again in various threads related to the AI changes. Adding even watered down sleeper like AI to plexes like these result in disaster. Before you could tank it with a loki and bring in logi and dps behind, not anymore.
For you wormhole and incursion guys, imagine a wormhole anomalie or incursion HQ site with 4 or 5 times as many ships in them as they have right now, THAT is what plexes like BRNS are like now, basically unsurvivable. However, UNLIKE those wormhole or incursion sites, the plexes CCP just screwed up have NO GUARANTEED PAYOUT, so you have to risk billions in ships for maybe an OPE and some bounties and occasionally some deadspace loot.
I'm sure CCP will eventually get around to wasting more time and money fixing what never had to be broken in the 1st place (after we warned them that this would happen), but it's all a little frustrating. CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
penifSMASH
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
133
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 14:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
People still rat for isk? I thought everyone had personal tech moons like me vOv |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:While the op might be a bit over the top, the "really smart" people replying to him have no clue about what they are talking about. Here, let me help you: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Blood_Raider_Naval_ShipyardQuote: Final room
20 battleships many of which will drain your capacitor. 10 cruisers 15 frigates some of which will warp scramble, web and tracking disrupt you. 8 stasis towers 6 point defense batteries 4 cruise missile batteries
Blood Raider Fleet Stronghold For people bad at math that's 64 things in there that will shoot and EWAR you, full room aggro as soon as you land (not a bug, it's always been that way). The stronghold shoots a torp at you that can insta-pop battleships. If you look back at the forum thread for the "Brain nom nom" dev blog about the npc AI changes, you will see that I specifically talked about this plex (edited to provide link), I even asked the CCP DEVs specifically if they had tested it, to which the never replied. This 10/10 isn't a matter of "bring more people" or "figure it out", and it's not just the torp that is the issue. Dark Blood Fleet Staging point 3 shoots the same torp at you as well, I just last night tanked that in a Rattlesnake orbiting the torp chucker station at 60km while my machariel killed everything else then the station (it's a VERY good thing at least that CCP decided to not apply the new AI to overseers and turrets, in fleet staging point 3 you can get the overseer and neuts on your tank ship and the dps ship only needs to worry about the rest of the room). No, the 10/10 is a different beast because of those ships and towers. Complexes like BRNS should have been re-done BEFORE new AI was applied to it and several of us told CCP this over and over and over again in various threads related to the AI changes. Adding even watered down sleeper like AI to plexes like these result in disaster. Before you could tank it with a loki and bring in logi and dps behind, not anymore. For you wormhole and incursion guys, imagine a wormhole anomalie or incursion HQ site with 4 or 5 times as many ships in them as they have right now, THAT is what plexes like BRNS are like now, basically unsurvivable. However, UNLIKE those wormhole or incursion sites, the plexes CCP just screwed up have NO GUARANTEED PAYOUT, so you have to risk billions in ships for maybe an OPE and some bounties and occasionally some deadspace loot. I'm sure CCP will eventually get around to wasting more time and money fixing what never had to be broken in the 1st place (after we warned them that this would happen), but it's all a little frustrating.
Every single thing this man said + the op. I've run complexes EXTENSIVELY. On top of plexes being incredibly unbalanced(Serpentis ones being a joke - 10/10 tower that does 7200 damage per hit + ships that has natively high resist against it AND no cap drain) And then you have the blood raider / Sansha plexes, where you have end towers that does 180k EM damage AND cap drain. + very few ships that have a high native resist. AND have to be tanked passively.
It's a known fact blood raiders / sansha plexes are much harder, and now after this change i fear they're borderline impossible to do. I did a 8/10 in blood raider space the other day, which beforehand was easy enough with the right setup, however with the AI changes i almost lost my ships twice, first time because i was to slow at reacting to the AI switching targets. Second time at final room, where my "tank" got scrammed and webbed, and took heavy damage, now what happens is i release my droens.. and what do i see? a whole damn room switching to them, as you might have guessed they evapurated in seconds. Afterwards they all decide to switch to my logi pilot, which barely got repped up by my other ships, however i made it and called it a victory.
In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship.. i do however feel the AI need some balancing, because right now it just seems more bugged than functioning.
Then some will probably quote me later and say, "dude run with a fleet... More people make it easire!". Yea alright, then here goes the next issue, - Loot.
I got a 21st overseer from that site, this suffice for me doing solo, but no way in hell am i going to use 1-+ hours on doing a plex for 50 mill.
Wrote this quickly your eyes, if you're the gramma police.
|
Signal11th
R O G U E
825
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bobbechk wrote:Try joining an Alliance with access to sovereignty space
That way you don't have to bring throw away glasscannon ships behind enemy lines to do the job of a proper fleet
They probably would if it didn't involve sucking on Martini's schlong oh by the way your avatar has something on his top lip...... God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Everyone Selfdestruct
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 15:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fonac wrote: In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship..
Seems like it is working as intended then! |
Fonac
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Everyone Selfdestruct wrote:Fonac wrote: In all honesty it was fun, more fun than nothing haveing to fear loosing a ship..
Seems like it is working as intended then!
Agreed. More fun is always good. Even tho the AI change would have a big hit on my operations i'm supportive of the change. The Ai of the old was an antique.
However this does not adress the fact that it seems overly bugged. I mean comon, a whole fleet of cruisers + frigates attacking my drones 2-+ sec after i unleash them?
And the plexes are still horrondous to run.
|
Amanda Haley
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 16:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
As a fellow explorer I feel for you man. I would simply unsub and get it over with. Don't want to throw insults, but CCP has big company problems where changes are driven by people who has little clue about the game, or base on too little research.
Also lol at everyone saluting the change and suggesting "adapt". Bunch of masochists and elite kids club, nothing more. As a working person my self, I don't need such tedious game. As I pay for my subs with real cash, all i need is to grind for pvp, but if that will cause more pain than fun (grind ass off for mere t2 BS fit) I will simply walk away. Tbh this is worse change than the monocle for real money. Difference is not everyone are affected to same degree, hence missile/lazor boats and guys with 5 alts have it easier.
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Caldari Citizen 211212125
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside. I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .
|
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
496
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 17:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 211212125 wrote:This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside. I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .
As a WH dweller, I'll be the first to say that while we have dealt with the new style AI for quite some time, it is important to point out that the sites are designed with that AI in mind.
I would agree with the OP that sites and missions etc need to be reworked to go along with the AI changes. With the old style AI, the only way to make a site harder was to add numbers.
That being said, the message would probably come across better if the OP hadn't been a all caps yelling, butthurt sounding whiner. |
Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
sooo what you saying is null bears now need to pay attention when plexing and running anoms.... Life is tough when you can't cyno in the blobs I can't remember the last time I saw wh dwellers complain about drone AI. Maybe you should go ask for help in the wh thread, but a small hint would be that perhaps there is a reason RR tengu's are soooo popular in wh's.. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat Holdings
130
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:sooo what you saying is null bears now need to pay attention when plexing and running anoms.... Life is tough when you can't cyno in the blobs I can't remember the last time I saw wh dwellers complain about drone AI. Maybe you should go ask for help in the wh thread, but a small hint would be that perhaps there is a reason RR tengu's are soooo popular in wh's..
Read the post directly before yours then ask yourself 'Is it time to stop posting?' Not today spaghetti. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
549
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 19:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:sooo what you saying is null bears now need to pay attention when plexing and running anoms.... Life is tough when you can't cyno in the blobs I can't remember the last time I saw wh dwellers complain about drone AI. Maybe you should go ask for help in the wh thread, but a small hint would be that perhaps there is a reason RR tengu's are soooo popular in wh's..
Why, i can't either. What say CCP makes THEM warp in on 64 sleepers (a 3rd of which will be battleships) and see how that RR Tengu set up does??
Or could it be that CCP made wormholes/incursions (the advanced AI content) with the sleep/incursion sansha in mind, where as the older complexes and missions were made with the old AI behavior in mind, thus the current problem.
Some people can't step away from their own prejudices long enough to see the real issues being discussed, and that's a shame. CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
800
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Some of the plexes probably are imbalanced with the AI changes...
Test it out on Sisi... experiment... there are ways to pull NPC aggro.... so perhaps you need to learn the new tricks and tools of the trade.
Massive whine threadnaughts don't accomplish anything.. and are generally seen as worthless.... If you see a problem, explain it, explain what you have tried and how/why it didn't work, and try not to put soooo many delicious tears in your thread....
Moar tears == entertaining, but much less likely to have your forum replied to by anything other than trolls looking for more tears! |
Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 22:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Cage Man wrote:sooo what you saying is null bears now need to pay attention when plexing and running anoms.... Life is tough when you can't cyno in the blobs I can't remember the last time I saw wh dwellers complain about drone AI. Maybe you should go ask for help in the wh thread, but a small hint would be that perhaps there is a reason RR tengu's are soooo popular in wh's.. Read the post directly before yours then ask yourself 'Is it time to stop posting?'
I probably should.. but then I will be bored at work...
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Ranger64511
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 23:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote: CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).
Stopped reading here as I didn't care what he had to say considering the changers were on Buckingham/Duality for weeks before TQ. Way to pay attention and then rage about it. This is my gate. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My gate is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my gate is useless. Without my gate, I am useless. |
Raketefrau
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 23:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote:There is not any single ship that can deal intelligent amount of dps, is fast enough, has good enough range of guns and can have tank over 1k dps that is needed for all rooms except the last room.
I, too, am enraged!
CCP needs make ship that solos 10/10!!!
Until then, I, too, withdraw my 1/4000th percentile of income to Iceland!
You make the NPCs powerfuller and makes me think sometimes about what I'm doing!@! Isn't FAIR!!!!
I have the right reserved to not think!! Evil Icelanders to not interfere with my braindeads!
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Farlig Ekorre
Malleus Labiarum Solar Citizens
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 00:52:00 -
[30] - Quote
The real rub I have with this change is the fact it hurts the people most who actively play Eve by exploring, running plexes and ratting. In other words, the people who work for the isk are the most harmed, making this a de facto regressive taxation.
Those who sit on their arse and harvest moons and renters will see no change in revenues. Simultaneously, the little guy is getting squeezed by higher costs for deadspace equipment and decreased income.
To do an 8/10, taking hours, for the same reward as a week ago, but immensely higher risk, is a regressive policy. Secondly, the fact these complexes (and missions for that extent) were designed around a 'dumber' AI makes them imbalanced.
I'm down a golem and two basilisks and have decided to dock up and **** this ****. There's nothing worse than sitting in a marauder, unable to hit the warp scrambling frigates, unable to release drones (or have them alpha'd when you do), makes complexes deeply imbalanced. And of course the speed at which npc frigates/tackle retarget and volley down your drones is super-human in reaction time.
All of Eve has been balanced around your primary ship doing ideal and prompt DPS to ships of similar size, whilst relying on drones to deal with smaller hulls which your weapons systems are not designed to hit (or cannot hit) These changes were not thought-through before implementing. |
|
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:27:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Some of the plexes probably are imbalanced with the AI changes...
No, all of the places are imbalanced with the AI changes. With the new AI the number of NPCs in 7/10-10/10 plexes needs to be cut by at least 50%. Either that or the rewards need to significantly to account for the fact that you now need 2 logi and 2 tank/dps boats to do what you used to be able to dual box with 1 tank/dps and 1 logi. Splitting 80M for OPE four ways = plexes no longer worth running.
Also, CCP was told this change was game breaking and chose to ignore and deploy anyway |
Brynhilda
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
92
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Wah!
My space coins takes effort to win!
If only there was another way to make isk... How may I drug you with drugs? |
DrunkenNinja
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 01:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
All I read was "IT SUCKS THAT NOW NPCS DON'T JUST STUPIDLY ATTACK ONE OVERTANKED TARGET. CCP Y U NERF MY TACKTICS!!??" |
Ahn Tee Mahtur
10
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Amanda Haley wrote:As a fellow explorer I feel for you man. I would simply unsub and get it over with. Don't want to throw insults, but CCP has big company problems where changes are driven by people who has little clue about the game, or base on too little research.
Also lol at everyone saluting the change and suggesting "adapt". Bunch of masochists and elite kids club, nothing more. As a working person my self, I don't need such tedious game. As I pay for my subs with real cash, all i need is to grind for pvp, but if that will cause more pain than fun (grind ass off for mere t2 BS fit) I will simply walk away. Tbh this is worse change than the monocle for real money. Difference is not everyone are affected to same degree, hence missile/lazor boats and guys with 5 alts have it easier.
It's funny cause you're right. All the kids that are like "derp adapt derp i like CCP's ****" . They don't run level 4 missions, never ran missions post retribution, and never will run L4's. They're laughing at people who are struggling with missions. Let's put it this way, CCP implement new AI so that they can target new targets and switch targets. They NEVER stated that there would be EW frigs/cruisers and full room aggro however it is stated thats a bug. But I'm pretty fuucking sure they never said EW frigs. |
Fango Mango
University of Caille Gallente Federation
58
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 02:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote: I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!
I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.
Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down !
Perhaps you should consider an alternative way to fund your Eve account. L5s come to mind . . .
Just selling Ammo to buy orders in jita will get you 1K/LP
That means you need to run about 10-11 L5s to cover your month subscription of 2 accounts.
That should take you about 3 hours/month.
-FM |
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1385
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Removed a personal attack. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
59
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 04:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
And there I thought that high-level PvE content (being effectively EvE dungeons) was supposed to be done in gangs with logis. Then people still found a way to do stuff solo(-ish) nevertheless so CCP had to nerf drops, change AI etc...
Hoist by own petard much? |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
553
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 05:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:And there I thought that high-level PvE content (being effectively EvE dungeons) was supposed to be done in gangs with logis. Then people still found a way to do stuff solo(-ish) nevertheless so CCP had to nerf drops, change AI etc...
Hoist by own petard much?
If they want them (high end plexes) done by gangs (like incursions and wormholes) then that's fine, but there shoud then be assured rewards (like encursions and wormholes) instead of chance based drops where you could get little or nothing, else those complexes are not worth doing.
However that is moot, the fact is, some of the high end plexes are so much trouble even a gang would have trouple and potentially take a loss. I (again) would welcome all these smug know-t-all incursion and wormhole people into content with advanced Ai AND 50-60 or more things shooting/ewaring you at once. Why it is still hard for such people to understand that the problem is not with the change per say but with the fact that it was layed over content not fit for it is totally beyond me.
I would welcome high end complexes that require a group effort (like an incursion HQ) if CCP did it right, what I don't welcome is 3 incursion HQs worth of rats shooting at me and my gang all at once and switching targets all over the place, because that's what is happening. if CCP had re-done the high end complexes FIRST then made new AI, I wouldn't be a part of this discussion at all, i'd be to busy recruiting corp mates to go do the 10/10 I just scanned down.
As it is right now the Blood Raider Naval Shipyard I found tonight is just going to sit there unless some else is brave (stupid) enough to try it (i've lost enough logis and 1 loki and my plex buddies have lost an RR Domi each), becuase i refuse to invite folks into a plex where they will lose ships I have to pay for. CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
20
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 09:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Never tried to do any blood plexes, but i dont see why you complain about angel plexes - these are most easily tanked and most profitable of all pirate species. Also there are several ways to do them (said vargur setup and classic dd+ab logi).
Last one could even do sansha ones, with exception of 8/10, where you probably will need mjd on battleship to pull distance buy time and get rid of tacklers, since using smart may be too late and these aggroed on logi will be deadly.
The problem is friggin tracking disruptors, which NEVER fall off, even BS ones. Though it is aknowledged as bug (i think) and will be hopefully fixed soon |
Amarra Mandalin
Protocol 52
414
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 10:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
I think the options are to join Test and PvE there or quit losing PvP ships. These are mutually exclusive options. I am quite depressed now. |
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Clith
Tr0pa de elite.
84
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote:
CCP you really should employ someone like me who can test your new changes before you destroy the most important thing and that's income for most people (making ISK by shooting NPC).
Because its not like there is a public test server or anything where you could have helped test and report your findings...
Also, I thought TDT were a wormhole corp that supplied -A- with cheap T3s. You should be used to switching agro.
|
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Bitten.
668
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 12:45:00 -
[42] - Quote
Why am I not surprised that a member of AAA is so bad they can't even PVE
I had no idea changing npc AI to switch targets would cause so many delicious tears. I guess I'm just used to it because of wormholes |
|
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1198
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 17:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Couple of troll posts removed and I editted the post topic to make it less shouty.
To everyone, you don't need to be rude to disagree with someone's opinion; please be constructive when you post here. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Cage Man
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Farlig Ekorre wrote:The real rub I have with this change is the fact it hurts the people most who actively play Eve by exploring, running plexes and ratting. In other words, the people who work for the isk are the most harmed, making this a de facto regressive taxation.
.
So what you saying is that mission runners, miners, incursion runners don't "actively play eve" My wife would disagree with you there. I have not been in null for about a year, so can't comment how the changes have impacted it, but I am willing to bet that a couple of RR tengu's will have no problems managing the sites.. even after the missile nerf. As to those of us who "don't actively play eve".... I have switched from 2 x NM's to NM and rattlesnake with T2 sentries, I cap chain and rattlesnake has shield RR and a does round 700 DPS with the drones (just copied what Rain6637 does.. but with less accounts), I just assign drones to the NM. It is a bit more work to manage but it works.. btw when the sentries get primaried.. I just put the rr on them and carry on regardless. Who knows this may even work in null sites... I probably didn't have to change to this.. but not being in a wh and having tons of isk to mess with has made me careful.. |
Tazarak theDeceiver
Malleus Labiarum Solar Citizens
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.15 08:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.
2 - Osprey 3 medium shield transporters 2 medium energy transporters invuln field, explosive hardener medium shield extender large shield booster II 10MN AB damage control PDU co-processor
1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.
Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.
If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.
It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later. |
Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
197
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 09:42:00 -
[46] - Quote
YESSSSS!!! TEABGG!
Now you do realize that hi end complexes were not meant for solo, dual account trickery.
Still, you've made a point. CCP needs to revisit the infamouse 10/10 and Maze with the stupid EM 100 000 EM torpedo battlestation. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
663
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 10:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.
2 - Osprey 3 medium shield transporters 2 medium energy transporters invuln field, explosive hardener medium shield extender large shield booster II 10MN AB damage control PDU co-processor
1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.
Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.
If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.
It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later.
Exactly which "DED" was this?
CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
663
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 10:15:00 -
[48] - Quote
Cage Man wrote:Farlig Ekorre wrote:The real rub I have with this change is the fact it hurts the people most who actively play Eve by exploring, running plexes and ratting. In other words, the people who work for the isk are the most harmed, making this a de facto regressive taxation.
. So what you saying is that mission runners, miners, incursion runners don't "actively play eve" My wife would disagree with you there. I have not been in null for about a year, so can't comment how the changes have impacted it, but I am willing to bet that a couple of RR tengu's will have no problems managing the sites.. even after the missile nerf. As to those of us who "don't actively play eve".... I have switched from 2 x NM's to NM and rattlesnake with T2 sentries, I cap chain and rattlesnake has shield RR and a does round 700 DPS with the drones (just copied what Rain6637 does.. but with less accounts), I just assign drones to the NM. It is a bit more work to manage but it works.. btw when the sentries get primaried.. I just put the rr on them and carry on regardless. Who knows this may even work in null sites... I probably didn't have to change to this.. but not being in a wh and having tons of isk to mess with has made me careful..
This wins for most ignorant post of the day/ No one mentioned mission ruinners or anyone else. However, when "missions runers, miners etc" has to learn how to probe out their content like explorers do, you can come back and tell us about them.
The point of this post is that CCP went about this whole thing the rong way. They should have fit the content around the NPC AI behavior FIRST like they did with incursions and wormholes. And they sholod taylor the rewards to fit.
Not all 10/10s are the same, The MAZE has NOTHING on Blood Raiders Naval Shipyard.
How would wormole and incursion players like to go through the trouble they go through for a CHANCE of a reward? A few years ago, CCP nerfed the 10/10s taking away the guarunteed OPE rewards, probably because people learned to solo 10/10s. That was fine, but now that some of those same plexes are hard to solo, they should bring back the rewards.
But none of this has even been considered, and this carelss approach by CCP demonstrates just how much they think about their most loyal paying customers.
CCP Gargant:-á this game requires a certain amount of simply going out there and chatting with people. You will get scammed, destroyed, cheated, trolled, and blown up but that is just a part of the essence of this game. -á |
Tazarak theDeceiver
Malleus Labiarum Solar Citizens
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 12:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.
2 - Osprey 3 medium shield transporters 2 medium energy transporters invuln field, explosive hardener medium shield extender large shield booster II 10MN AB damage control PDU co-processor
1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.
Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.
If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.
It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later. Exactly which "DED" was this?
Angel prisoner retention.
I will say that the day of the patch I had a provincial HQ spawn. My ships were eaten and I never managed to finish it. Logis get aggro just warping in without even locking targets.
|
Tazarak theDeceiver
Malleus Labiarum Solar Citizens
29
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 12:27:00 -
[50] - Quote
Opertone wrote:YESSSSS!!! TEABGG!
Now you do realize that hi end complexes were not meant for solo, dual account trickery.
Still, you've made a point. CCP needs to revisit the infamouse 10/10 and Maze with the stupid EM 100 000 EM torpedo battlestation.
As far as I'm aware there is nothing wrong being a space hermit. I multibox many games.
The biggest appeal if Eve to me has always been the fact I can do laundry, listen to an audio book, hold snd feed my baby all whilst ratting. It's never been a twitch reflex kind of game compared to mist other titles I play. I feel like we've all list something eith these changes. I needed to change a diaper last night but wad scrammed by a belt rat. This is pretty annoying. |
|
Sgt LoveDragon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 13:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fango Mango wrote:White Sorceress wrote: I like to shoot and I don't like to do market stuff. My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive. It was already on the border now, spending most of my free time in weekends running damn complexes so survive another month. But now it's over. I don't see any way how to make ISK anymore!
I will wait one month if CCP realizes they totally ****** it up. After that I don't see any other way than letting my accounts expire and wait what happens.
Very bad job CCP, you really need someone who understands this game from inside ! Thumbs down ! Perhaps you should consider an alternative way to fund your Eve account. L5s come to mind . . . Just selling Ammo to buy orders in jita will get you 1K/LP That means you need to run about 10-11 L5s to cover your month subscription of 2 accounts. That should take you about 3 hours/month. -FM
Yeah no i run L5's and same deal with ai. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
665
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 16:18:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.
2 - Osprey 3 medium shield transporters 2 medium energy transporters invuln field, explosive hardener medium shield extender large shield booster II 10MN AB damage control PDU co-processor
1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.
Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.
If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.
It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later. Exactly which "DED" was this? Angel prisoner retention. I will say that the day of the patch I had a provincial HQ spawn. My ships were eaten and I never managed to finish it. Logis get aggro just warping in without even locking targets. Thr vslues of OPE need to quadruple.
I solo'd Cartel Prisoner Retention yesterday in a Tengu, I jsut moved away from rep range of the station in the 4th room so it wouldn't rep and ignored everything but killing it, book marked the can it dropped, warped of and let it despawn then picked up the lot.
Why ar eyou using a battleship and 2 logis?. Even with the torp changes can a golem hit the station fro outside station rep range (my tengu has a missles speed rig now)?
For everyone else, it must be remembered that despite the DEd rating system (which is worthless and has been for a while), all compelxes are not created equal. Complexes without neutralizing elements can easily be solo'd still and thus aren't broken by the AI changes as much. Complexs with neutralizing and other EWAR elements are broken.
|
Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics K162
90
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 19:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
If the rewards are currently crap, then everyone will stop running them. Jacking up the prices of complex mods until a point where people feel the risk is worth the reward. If people don't stop running them then maybe they are unhindered by these changes and have adapted.
As a hint for pulling aggro, ECM reallly pisses off sleepers; maybe itll help to keep aggro on your tanked ship. |
Setab Nairromede
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
4
|
Posted - 2012.12.16 20:54:00 -
[54] - Quote
The contradicting thing here is that I thought CCP was supposed to be leaning towards rewarding active income generation. This seems to go against this. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
667
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 05:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Hamatitio wrote:If the rewards are currently crap, then everyone will stop running them. Jacking up the prices of complex mods until a point where people feel the risk is worth the reward. If people don't stop running them then maybe they are unhindered by these changes and have adapted.
As a hint for pulling aggro, ECM reallly pisses off sleepers; maybe itll help to keep aggro on your tanked ship.
Just because the market will adjust doens't make broken content be unbroken. I'm all for adapting, but can you not understand that CCP went at this whole thing backwards?
How would you like to go up against 4-5 times as many sleepers as you do now only to have people tell you "ah, you'll adapt" lol. Further, how would you wormhole people like your rewards to be utterly random? If CCP wants plexes to not be solo, I'm all for that, make them that way. But the current crap is just unprofessional for a game company. |
Farlig Ekorre
Malleus Labiarum Solar Citizens
9
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 05:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
The AI gets mad aggro with logistic ships even enter the room. It's a bit over the top. |
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 10:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
One of the very very very best changes ever.
I dislike it completely that players were able to nearly autorun high end stuff by using and relying on certain techniques that were simply a design failure. In wormholes sleepers always did change their targets and it was about time that those abusing the missing ability of NPCs changing their targets for their very own benefit.
Also it is good for us explorers that those waiting in plexes nearby the gate to the next pocket until you shot the unlocking NPC and then steal now quickly can become a target - especially if you know how to make the NPCs switch. Best change ever.
Prices go up. More income. Less abusing.
Thanks CCP :) |
Mnemosyne Gloob
Teshnology Inc. Stealth Wear Inc.
68
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 11:29:00 -
[58] - Quote
So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.
Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.
Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat. |
CydonianKnight
IRIS Industries Pandorum Invictus
7
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 11:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.
Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.
Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat.
Basically you summed it up well, you can still explore just as well - find new ways to do it!
Maybe try throwing a micro-jump drive on instead of an AB, let's you get range quickly. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
669
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 14:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ikonia wrote:One of the very very very best changes ever.
I dislike it completely that players were able to nearly autorun high end stuff by using and relying on certain techniques that were simply a design failure. In wormholes sleepers always did change their targets and it was about time that those abusing the missing ability of NPCs changing their targets for their very own benefit.
You are conflating issues basically. CCP disliked people being able to solo high end stuff too, which is why a couple years ago they nerfed the pay outs you get from them (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard used to drop 5 guaranteed OPE boxes inadditon to the chance of deadspace loot, now it drops 2 maybe, and a chance of deadspace loot).
That nerf was fine, you could still solo them and get a little something and a chance at something big. But this nerf means you have to do things differently, perhaps with mroe people.....for the EXACT same low reward and slim chance at something good.
Again wormhole and incursion people THINK, what if the content you did (which requires organization and paying attention) only offered a CHANCE of reward instead of the pretty much guaranteed.
If CCP wants high in plexes to be group activity, im totally fine with that, but they need to un-nerf them FIRST, which they did not do.
Quote: Also it is good for us explorers that those waiting in plexes nearby the gate to the next pocket until you shot the unlocking NPC and then steal now quickly can become a target - especially if you know how to make the NPCs switch. Best change ever.
Prices go up. More income. Less abusing.
Thanks CCP :)
Waiting in plexes and stealing? Let me guess, you are a high sec explorer (because that only happens in high sec). If so it would be no wonder that you don't understand what we are discussing here. High Sec exploration is literally child's play.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
669
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 14:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:So basically you guys are mad that you can't use the paper tigers and other strange methods for plexing anymore? It always seemed strange to me, that the rats would happily pound on that one ship that they can't reach/can't break, while completely ignoring the other one that pumps 1k dps or whatever at them. Yes, i too had to sort of retire my tornado, but whatever.
Is what some of us are saying so hard to understand?
We did the old plexes the way CCP designed them, with the stupid NPCs. They tried to make them really tough with things like citidel torps and neut towers and bunches of npc ships, but the stupid AI meant all that was easily doable.
So, CCP nerfed the plex rewards because those plexes were soloable. And that was fine.
The problem is that CCP has made a change were some of them aren't so soloable anymore, and that too is fine, but those plexes still have the nerf-level rewards. Point blank, some of those complexes aren't really worth risking, because they take longer you are more exposed to other players killing you, more prone to lose ships etc etc.
The real end result is a sharp uptick in players doing high sec incursions, I hadn't seen it be this hard to get into an incursion fleet (across several communities) in a LONG time and while I have no information on wormholes I expect we'll see an increase in players in those too.
Chasing people away from content and professions might be good for those who are left (I still explore and do plexes), but it's bad game management.
Now drone aggro sometimes seems a bit weird. Whenever i launch my light drones and theres frigates on field, they will immediately redbox my drones ... yet no rat is bothered by my sentries.
Quote: Saying "4-5 times as many sleepers" also seem a bit exaggerated, after all sleepers usually are a tad tougher than your average normal rat.
The point stands. Incursions and Wormholes were built with specific NPC Behaviors in mind, yet for some reason some wormhole and incursion players can't understand how important that is.. The missions and complexes should have been redesigned so the behavior of the NPCs make sense FIRST then had the new AI applied. The way CCP has done this is incredibly backward. |
Angelina Joliee
Project Stealth Squad Initiative Mercenaries
6
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 15:08:00 -
[62] - Quote
Just wanted to inform you that i am back in complexing. I do it with two ships again - a rattlesnake and a tempest fleet issue. Both doing damage, tanking and remote-repping. No more dedicated tank or dedicated damage dealer.
Are complexes doable since patch? yes
Is is harder than pre-patch? yes
Do Drones die? yes
Is it more fun than pre-patch? no
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forestwho
Foonfleet Investment Banking
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 16:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
White Sorceress wrote: My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive.
You see this is the problem, just cut down an account or two.... |
Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.17 19:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
I remember some threads a while back about people saying that PVE was too easy.. don't recall anyone whining now in those threads disagreeing.. mmm too little too late maybe |
Robertina Bering
Local resources exhausted
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 02:45:00 -
[65] - Quote
I lolled at OP.
You're just DOING IT WRONG, face it. |
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 08:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
penifSMASH wrote:People still rat for isk? I thought everyone had personal tech moons like me vOv
Well i do.. But i couldnt say no to extra 2 bil / week im getting from ratting
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Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 09:13:00 -
[67] - Quote
Caldari Citizen 211212125 wrote:This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside. I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .
Actually this makes me realize that wormholes needs to be nerfed quicly. As they make way too much too easy isk compared to much harder complexes.. Something like +200% in amount of spawning sleepers. And possibility for empty wrecks and no loot. Then we could add bunch of neut and web towers with citadel torpedo |
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.18 11:37:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Tazarak theDeceiver wrote:I managed to get through a DED tonight. I had to fly 3 ships instead of 2, and of course pay attention. Knowing they're working on fixing the drones to behave more civilly I thought I'd dip my toes back in the water.
2 - Osprey 3 medium shield transporters 2 medium energy transporters invuln field, explosive hardener medium shield extender large shield booster II 10MN AB damage control PDU co-processor
1 Golem - torpedo fit, full gank. I swapped one target painter for a fed navy web, so I could better hit frigates with torpedos if I run out of drones.
Set the three ships up bouncing energy amongst the three. It should allow for the Osprey to perma shield boost as well as avoid most damage with the 10MN AB. The Golem can then permaboost and not get too worried about its tank.
If need be, the ospreys could throw emergency heals to the Golem. But I never needed it. By the last room, I was bouncing one remote rep off of each osprey from the other just to be safe as they did get aggro just from energy transfers.
It's a different tactic... and the ospreys are cheaper than basis. I also did this unrigged, so I can fine tune it later. Exactly which "DED" was this? Angel prisoner retention. I will say that the day of the patch I had a provincial HQ spawn. My ships were eaten and I never managed to finish it. Logis get aggro just warping in without even locking targets. Thr vslues of OPE need to quadruple.
Angel prisoner retention is easy 8/10 escalation which can also be founded with probes. Ive soloed angel prisoner retention in tengu post patch.. Just saying... |
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 09:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ikonia wrote:One of the very very very best changes ever.
I dislike it completely that players were able to nearly autorun high end stuff by using and relying on certain techniques that were simply a design failure. In wormholes sleepers always did change their targets and it was about time that those abusing the missing ability of NPCs changing their targets for their very own benefit. You are conflating issues basically. CCP disliked people being able to solo high end stuff too, which is why a couple years ago they nerfed the pay outs you get from them (Angel Cartel Naval Shipyard used to drop 5 guaranteed OPE boxes inadditon to the chance of deadspace loot, now it drops 2 maybe, and a chance of deadspace loot). That nerf was fine, you could still solo them and get a little something and a chance at something big. But this nerf means you have to do things differently, perhaps with mroe people.....for the EXACT same low reward and slim chance at something good. Again wormhole and incursion people THINK, what if the content you did (which requires organization and paying attention) only offered a CHANCE of reward instead of the pretty much guaranteed. If CCP wants high in plexes to be group activity, im totally fine with that, but they need to un-nerf them FIRST, which they did not do. Quote: Also it is good for us explorers that those waiting in plexes nearby the gate to the next pocket until you shot the unlocking NPC and then steal now quickly can become a target - especially if you know how to make the NPCs switch. Best change ever.
Prices go up. More income. Less abusing.
Thanks CCP :)
Waiting in plexes and stealing? Let me guess, you are a high sec explorer (because that only happens in high sec). If so it would be no wonder that you don't understand what we are discussing here. High Sec exploration is literally child's play.
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Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
38
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 09:27:00 -
[70] - Quote
..
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Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
21
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Posted - 2012.12.20 11:04:00 -
[71] - Quote
Did sansha 10/10 with abaddon+ab guardian with medium rep. Pretty easy if you pay attention and kill cruisers and frigates fast - battleships wont hit ABing logistic. Same thing with sansha 7/10 (successfully completed one), and most probably 6/10 (didnt see one for like a half of year, really rare one)
Didn't try 8/10 - last pocket always had lots of ewar, and with bugged TD it will be almost impossible i think. Not worth time anyway - like 19 of 20 will drop only box.
On the other hand, angel plexes: succesfully completed angel 8/10 with tempest+ab logi. Again, no problem, though tempest doing it little slower than machariel :) If this setup does angel 8/10, it can do all other angel DED with no problems.
Don't know anything about guristas, probably you will never get out of jam here
Blood plexes...saw the descriptions, don't even want to try |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
694
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 13:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Ikonia wrote: So you are complaining about not having guaranteed loot for few to no effort? Lame.
So you can't read English? what part of that was hard to understand? CCP nerfed the plex payouts because they are soloable (I guess you didn't read the part where I said "THIS IS FINE"), now that some of them aren't they should revisit the issue.
You're a genius.
Ikonia wrote:
Let me guess, you are nullsec carebearing plex runner, because only those think it would only happen in highsec. Nope, that happens everywhere. In highsec maybe like you said "childs play" and only for stealing. In lowsec pirates and plorers are competing (you notice the difference when a plorer just sneaks by and a pirate opens fire) and in nullsec by those claiming it their own additional.
As usual, the high sec person doesn't understand anything outside of High Sec. Come try a Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (ie actually LEARN something), then come tell me how bad that Empire 4/10 was lol.
Unbelievable. |
Lonig
Red Lightning Logistics
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 17:39:00 -
[73] - Quote
forestwho wrote:White Sorceress wrote: My accounts cost 1.2b every month that i need to pay to keep my accounts alive.
You see this is the problem, just cut down an account or two....
Just pointing out how every PLEX started with a real money purchase. So the fact some won't be able to make enough to pay for plexes, will lead to less sales and accounts. They won't be truly 'quitting', but they'll drop an account or two as they can't afford the plex. And since plenty of other methods for making rather crazy isk exist, the cost of PLEX won't drop much, if it does at all. So in the end, it's a net loss for the game. Even a plex'er is a payer. I like isk too much to buy them myself, but I understand their value to the community.
I also understand CCP wanting to change AI to be more involved. But the fact that test server folks have been complaining about this for quite awhile, has me believe they are truly sold on this AI being the future. I'd say the community should focus (like many in this thread already have) on the fact that they need to quickly redo the missions/complexes/etc to make them not be so incredibly overpowered against the player.
I myself don't run complexes, and I do very few missions (a few L4s now and then). But even I noticed how badly they are toned compared to the past. My poor little drones are such a pita. Swapping back to a Raven, which to me is even less fun than a drone boat. Overall, all the AI change has done is lower income of a couple specific profit paths, and make drone sales increase. Being a manufacturer, I am greatful for the latter as I've made a ton more on drones since Ret than probably the previous year (I'm not exaggerating by much). I can't produce them fast enough for certain markets.
Anyway, my point being, that we as a community should focus on asking for mission/complex balancing and not throwing hissy fits over the AI. They knew we wouldn't like the AI, they've known for quite awhile thanks to the test players. So we need to accept that they are willing to put up with this, and direct them toward the obvious changes they can make (mission/complex balance) that might actually let us adapt properly.
/endrant |
Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
42
|
Posted - 2012.12.20 18:33:00 -
[74] - Quote
There are other ways to make isk in eve.. including null. I used to sit in a sentry carrier and burn through havens/hub/sunctums in an upgraded system for hours making 40-50mil and hour. PI is pretty good out in null also (each account has 3 toons, use them.. training PI is quick). Good thing about sentries is you can rep them when they get targeted. |
Tasiv Deka
Jadablade Redneck Rage
49
|
Posted - 2012.12.21 06:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Keko Khaan wrote:Caldari Citizen 211212125 wrote:This makes me all warm and Fuzzy inside. I hope this gives all you mission, Plexing peeps an insight what us Wh dwellers have to deal with. And hopefully you may stop crying over the isk we make because we deserve it for what we have to do to make our isk .
Actually this makes me realize that wormholes needs to be nerfed quicly. As they make way too much too easy isk compared to much harder complexes.. Something like +200% in amount of spawning sleepers. And possibility for empty wrecks and no loot. Then we could add bunch of neut and web towers with citadel torpedo Also reminds me that wh's can be soloed even in drake. Yes C2 or something.. I know alot guys that soloes even higer class wh's with tengu and salvager alt.. Soo why is this content made for gangs doable as solo?
You can solo c3s in a tengu it was "possible" to solo c4's pre missle nerf but it took way too long due to low dps and was too risky in a hole that wasnt your own, a little too risky in a hole that was your own as well. Took even longer for c5s if you could manage to kill the BS's
and also on c4s and lower the main income comes from nano ribbons which are chance based drops there were nights i would grind out 15 to 20 sites and would barely walk away with 75 mil after paying for ammo and my share of fuel, of course there were also nights i would hit 5-10 sites and walk away with almost half a billon in net profit... so maybe they should change the rewards a bit... but they should also tweak the RNG to match
TLDR: Yes you can solo low to mid whs but the reward isnt always stellar (essentially the bounties/tags could be all you get), so maybe its not the loot table but the RNG that needs looked at... for everything. Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts...-á
The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth. |
Ikonia
Royal Amarr Expeditions
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 12:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Ikonia wrote: So you are complaining about not having guaranteed loot for few to no effort? Lame.
So you can't read English? what part of that was hard to understand? CCP nerfed the plex payouts because they are soloable (I guess you didn't read the part where I said "THIS IS FINE"), now that some of them aren't they should revisit the issue. You're a genius. Ikonia wrote:
Let me guess, you are nullsec carebearing plex runner, because only those think it would only happen in highsec. Nope, that happens everywhere. In highsec maybe like you said "childs play" and only for stealing. In lowsec pirates and plorers are competing (you notice the difference when a plorer just sneaks by and a pirate opens fire) and in nullsec by those claiming it their own additional.
As usual, the high sec person doesn't understand anything outside of High Sec. Come try a Blood Raider Naval Shipyard (ie actually LEARN something), then come tell me how bad that Empire 4/10 was lol. Unbelievable.
Im not a geniuos. But for someone who a) doesnt use his original toon for posting or b) never has had any pvp wins or losses though he claims to be ub0rexperienced in null sec your points are so far from reality that i guess im discussing with a troll.
Had more drops than ever since the patch. Primarily in null sec, few in low sec, few in high sec. Highsec drops are lower. I think low sec drops are even to before. Nullsec had a significant feelable plus on drops. Never made so much in such few time ever before, not even in my most lucky runs. And all plexes are by now much more easy to solo than before, i dont get it what you are complaining about.
Guess you are a troll and me dumb enough to discuss. |
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