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Do assault ships need rebalancing?

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Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries 4	Posted - 2011.10.07 16:21:00 - [61] - Quote Personally I love the idea of the 5 turret Retri...
David Grogan The Motley Crew Reborn 52	Posted - 2011.10.07 16:24:00 - [62] - Quote Ciar Meara wrote: NO ship should have just one med slot. yup even mining barges should get at least 2 more midslots..... goons need the extra loot from it to reprocess into mins to build more ganking ships
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. 7	Posted - 2011.10.09 05:10:00 - [63] - Quote Cearain wrote: Sure every ship should have more than one midslot. I fly the ishkur but that is the only af I fly. Yet I think it is right up there with the dram and daredevil as the most powerfull frigates in the game. I will happilly fight any other frigate/destroyer in my ishkur except the kitey ships like the slicers. QED The retri does not need another slot either (slots are balanced - which means adding a slot would add one across all the races) - I believe the balance is going to be 'bonus' because the whole argument for the AF buff has been that it has 3 rather then 4 bonus'. So add a damage bonus for the retri.
EI Digin Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 145	Posted - 2011.10.09 07:37:00 - [64] - Quote The assault ship's role is to, well, assault other ships. They are supposed to be the zealots and vagabonds of the frigate class, which means yes, they will have problems against cruiser sized vessels, or against destroyers, but should have a better time against battlecruisers, which are meant to kill cruisers, battleships and larger. For example, Muninns should completely ruin a AF gang's day, but Hurricanes will have a much more difficult time. Any special snowflake fourth bonuses, like web speed or point range can be done by electronic attack ships (gasp) which also need major survivability buffs, hopefully that will come along with assault ship buffs. The best buff part-time assault ship pilots like myself would love to see is to be able to tank a set of t2 light drones long enough to be able to have a chance at killing, well, anything that has a drone bay. When I don't have to warp out every fight and come back in every 30 seconds because some guy clicks on me then presses the drone attack hotkey for easy killmails, we can talk about buffing speed and/or damage. A small/large increase in afterburner speed would be pretty cool, and it wouldn't take away the job from an interceptor because they have an insane amount of scan resolution, which is needed to lock fast. The ~4km bonus on fleet interceptors is pretty helpful as well. Plus they are insanely fast, and can tank decently while MWDing at range. I would say a dps increase to about ~250 (low end, rocket/tanky AFS like the jaguar) to ~350+ dps (high dps AFs with little utility, wolf/enyo) would be a good amount, not too much to phase out t1 cruisers or stealth bombers, but enough to make fights more interesting, and fleets of assault frigates (~wolfpax~) more dangerous. Of course, as much as I would love to roll around owning everything in a cheap little assault frigate, balance is needed, and I would hope that CCP does not go too far :). Yeah, it sucks only having one midslot on your ship, but my EFT warrioring ability tells me that you can tank the hell out of a Retribution and have some decent DPS. It all balances out in the end. Find a friend to warp scramble dudes for you in an interceptor.
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 71	Posted - 2011.10.09 09:46:00 - [65] - Quote EI Digin wrote: Yeah, it sucks only having one midslot on your ship, but my EFT warrioring ability tells me that you can tank the hell out of a Retribution and have some decent DPS. It all balances out in the end. Find a friend to warp scramble dudes for you in an interceptor. noooo, it's a frigate so it must tackle!!!!111oneoneone /sarcasm [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Smoking Blunts Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD. 69	Posted - 2011.10.09 10:35:00 - [66] - Quote Ruah Piskonit wrote: Cearain wrote: Sure every ship should have more than one midslot. I fly the ishkur but that is the only af I fly. Yet I think it is right up there with the dram and daredevil as the most powerfull frigates in the game. I will happilly fight any other frigate/destroyer in my ishkur except the kitey ships like the slicers. QED The retri does not need another slot either (slots are balanced - which means adding a slot would add one across all the races) - I believe the balance is going to be 'bonus' because the whole argument for the AF buff has been that it has 3 rather then 4 bonus'. So add a damage bonus for the retri. the retirbution in its current state is worthless. oh look im doing awsom damage, oh look he warped off cos i dont have a 2nd mid slot to fit a point to a PVP ship.. a ship without a point is like sex without the good bit CCP-áare full of words and no action. We watch what they do and its nothing but false statements and lies.
Ugleb Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan 28	Posted - 2011.10.09 11:19:00 - [67] - Quote I'm not convinced that AF's are all that broken, last I heard they still see use in FW a fair bit where the gangs are smaller and the plxes force people into flying frigate hulls. They may benefit from a slight buff. Maybe a little extra damage or a bit more EHP. Or maybe a role bonus for range allowing them to hit more of the battlefield. I think that their role is to be the 'slugger' of the frigate line up, tougher than most and with the ability to apply damage better than the other T2 classes. What they should not do is become fast enough to take over interceptors role or gain enough mids to cover the ground that Electronics Attack Frigs are supposed to cover. Its is EAF's that are crying out for a rethink, they've been over priced and overly fragile since introduction. I suspect that they need to be made into better sig tankers (even with the sig reduction bonus they compare badly to an inty). http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
Grimpak Midnight Elites Echelon Rising 71	Posted - 2011.10.10 00:24:00 - [68] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: Ruah Piskonit wrote: Cearain wrote: Sure every ship should have more than one midslot. I fly the ishkur but that is the only af I fly. Yet I think it is right up there with the dram and daredevil as the most powerfull frigates in the game. I will happilly fight any other frigate/destroyer in my ishkur except the kitey ships like the slicers. QED The retri does not need another slot either (slots are balanced - which means adding a slot would add one across all the races) - I believe the balance is going to be 'bonus' because the whole argument for the AF buff has been that it has 3 rather then 4 bonus'. So add a damage bonus for the retri. the retirbution in its current state is worthless. oh look im doing awsom damage, oh look he warped off cos i dont have a 2nd mid slot to fit a point to a PVP ship.. a ship without a point is like sex without the good bit get a gangmate to tackle for you? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img] [quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
THXBYE Elite War Squad 4	Posted - 2011.10.10 01:16:00 - [69] - Quote I think they need to be a little more powerful for what they're supposed to be/do. They are somewhat as weak as a frigate imo. Even rifter is better than some assault ships.
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 01:50:00 - [70] - Quote Grimpak wrote: since the inception of the retri and discussion on how to improve the whole AF class I was always much more partial to the idea of turning the retri into a mobile turret platform. giving it a medslot would turn it into a laser enyo or a laser wolf, and that's too bland tbh. As long as it isn't a laser retribution.
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. 8	Posted - 2011.10.10 01:55:00 - [71] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: Ruah Piskonit wrote: Cearain wrote: Sure every ship should have more than one midslot. I fly the ishkur but that is the only af I fly. Yet I think it is right up there with the dram and daredevil as the most powerfull frigates in the game. I will happilly fight any other frigate/destroyer in my ishkur except the kitey ships like the slicers. QED The retri does not need another slot either (slots are balanced - which means adding a slot would add one across all the races) - I believe the balance is going to be 'bonus' because the whole argument for the AF buff has been that it has 3 rather then 4 bonus'. So add a damage bonus for the retri. the retirbution in its current state is worthless. oh look im doing awsom damage, oh look he warped off cos i dont have a 2nd mid slot to fit a point to a PVP ship.. a ship without a point is like sex without the good bit He is going to warp out anyway because 1) you probably fit an AB 2) you don't have a web 3) you are out of cap by the time you have the scram and damage and now have no juice to continue the fight. I suspect you are one of these 'everything must be balanced for solo' or 'if it can't solo it sucks' people. Its fine, stick to your jags - but in FW where the AF is used for PvP most often - you tend to fly it as gang dps. I know this sounds strange to some, but it works.
Dehlandrae Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2011.10.10 02:05:00 - [72] - Quote Why not give them a flat 60% bonus to damage across the board, they are supposed to be Assault Frigs after all, just make them seriously hard-hitting for frigs
Cpt Fina The Tuskers 23	Posted - 2011.10.10 03:01:00 - [73] - Quote If it is a broken shipclass the why do I see them so often in low-sec? Sure, some specific AF hulls might need tweaks but as a shipclass they do work and are being used. If anything it's the t1 frigates and electronic attack frigates that needs looking at GÇô you rarely see old players flying t1 frigate hulls if it isn't a rifter. One option is to make them super specialized GÇô take 1-2 mid or lowslot on each hull and add the same number of high missile/turret slots. The fourth bonus could be a further increase to damage/RoF. This way they will truly fill the role of frigate sized damagedealer and leave the tackling to the frigatecllass that were designed for that: interceptors. If this turns out to be too powerful of a buff then reduce their EHP by X amount of %
Mekhana Spiritus Draconis 163	Posted - 2011.10.10 03:03:00 - [74] - Quote The Harpy doesn't need a buff.
Ugleb Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan 32	Posted - 2011.10.10 16:44:00 - [75] - Quote Given how many people responding to this thread seem to think that AF's don't really need boosting, it'll be interesting to see what CCP come up with. "For this expansion feature we decided to leave things as they are. Enjoy!" :P http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
Richard de'Astley Coriault Combat Solutions Inc. 0	Posted - 2011.10.10 16:50:00 - [76] - Quote Smoking Blunts wrote: Ruah Piskonit wrote: Cearain wrote: Sure every ship should have more than one midslot. I fly the ishkur but that is the only af I fly. Yet I think it is right up there with the dram and daredevil as the most powerfull frigates in the game. I will happilly fight any other frigate/destroyer in my ishkur except the kitey ships like the slicers. QED The retri does not need another slot either (slots are balanced - which means adding a slot would add one across all the races) - I believe the balance is going to be 'bonus' because the whole argument for the AF buff has been that it has 3 rather then 4 bonus'. So add a damage bonus for the retri. the retirbution in its current state is worthless. oh look im doing awsom damage, oh look he warped off cos i dont have a 2nd mid slot to fit a point to a PVP ship.. a ship without a point is like sex without the good bit Bring friends and you'll fail less. Assault frigates aren't broken at all, just current tactics don't really have a place for them.
EI Digin Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 146	Posted - 2011.10.10 18:59:00 - [77] - Quote Cpt Fina wrote: If it is a broken shipclass the why do I see them so often in low-sec? Sure, some specific AF hulls might need tweaks but as a shipclass they do work and are being used. Ugleb wrote: I'm not convinced that AF's are all that broken, last I heard they still see use in FW a fair bit where the gangs are smaller and the plxes force people into flying frigate hulls. ... Given how many people responding to this thread seem to think that AF's don't really need boosting, it'll be interesting to see what CCP come up with. A ship class doesn't need to be totally broken in order for it to get a balance pass. Just because it works fine in one scenario (lowsec, or faction warfare which is frigate heavy) doesn't mean that we should totally skip over it and do something else. Although I do agree that EAFs deserve more attention because they ARE broken, assault frigates need a little love too, and balancing them is much simpler. I also think there are valid concerns that myself and others have brought up regarding assault frigates that could use addressing.
Ruah Piskonit PIE Inc. 9	Posted - 2011.10.10 22:25:00 - [78] - Quote EI Digin wrote: Cpt Fina wrote: If it is a broken shipclass the why do I see them so often in low-sec? Sure, some specific AF hulls might need tweaks but as a shipclass they do work and are being used. Ugleb wrote: I'm not convinced that AF's are all that broken, last I heard they still see use in FW a fair bit where the gangs are smaller and the plxes force people into flying frigate hulls. ... Given how many people responding to this thread seem to think that AF's don't really need boosting, it'll be interesting to see what CCP come up with. A ship class doesn't need to be totally broken in order for it to get a balance pass. Just because it works fine in one scenario (lowsec, or faction warfare which is frigate heavy) doesn't mean that we should totally skip over it and do something else. Although I do agree that EAFs deserve more attention because they ARE broken, assault frigates need a little love too, and balancing them is much simpler. I also think there are valid concerns that myself and others have brought up regarding assault frigates that could use addressing. but really, what are those 'concerns' and if they are buffed, do you think that may in turn cause a cascade up the food chain (that is, cruisers seem underpowered and so on). They are gonna get buffed because thats what Zulu wants, lets hope it does not completely break the class.
Zverofaust Ascetic Virtues 17	Posted - 2011.10.10 22:50:00 - [79] - Quote Oo I have opinions too can I share!! I think problem with AFs is there's way too many ship types that fit in the same general role. Frigs, AFs, destroyers and t1 cruisers are all in similar category of a light cheap PVP ship. Dessies inparticular kind of make AFs redundant. So I think the entire sub-BC line needs a little shaking up. First destroyers need to be given an actual role other than "beefy frigate". What is a Destroyer? What do they Destroy? Definition-wise they're Torpedo Boat Destroyers. Most people when they think of a Torpedo Boat they think of JFK's PT-109 little fast speedboat with some torps on the sides. Back when the term was coined however most Torpedo Boats were only barely smaller than the Destroyers, more like frigates with banks of rotating torpedo launchers and secondary armament. Destroyers were basically Torpedo Boats without the Torpedoes. So what is the analogue of a Torpedo Boat in Eve? Well obviously Stealth Bombers since they SHOOT torpedos but I think it would also be a good benchmark to describe any long-range missile craft. So I suggest the crazy idea of turning Destroyers into a sort of anti-missile ship with bonuses for Defender Missiles, or make up an entirely new type of module -- either way, you have Ewar mods that reduce turret effectiveness (optimal or tracking), I think it'd be good to have a ship that ewars on missiles. Maybe reduces missile tracking or explosion speed, whatever. Works on a per-ship basis. You lock enemy ship you activate anti-missile ewar mod on it, its missiles start sucking. And Destroyers would get a big bonus for this. Second when I think of an Assault frigate the first thing that comes to mind is a badass frigate. They kinda are but there are limitations. First, bang-for-buck they're pretty ****. They'll tear up most frigs (but not all) but likewise get torn up by most cruisers, and cruisers are much cheaper and easier to train up. So I propose first making these things much cheaper. Half their current price at least, on par with cruiser prices. Second, make them more flexible by both giving them some bonus to things like webs, ewar or whatever, and also give them more slots so pilots can fit them out in more variety of ways. That's all I got.
Flyinghotpocket Ascetic Virtues 1	Posted - 2011.10.10 23:11:00 - [80] - Quote EI Digin wrote: Just because it works fine in one scenario (lowsec, or faction warfare which is frigate heavy) doesn't mean that we should totally skip over it and do something else. Although I do agree that EAFs deserve more attention because they ARE broken, assault frigates need a little love too, and balancing them is much simpler. The retribution works well in FW, as you have said. and we shall not skip over its rebalancing. i fly the retri and coercer o so often never with any points for pvp. and i have to say the one thing they dont need is another MID. just some more ship bonuses. BUT as long as that statement is up there, just because interdictors work fine in one scenario(0.0 PVP) doesnt mean we should overlook them. id like to see interdictors actually useful in lowsec/FW. with there sig nearly the size of a cruiser, just about any battlecruiser in optimal range is going to 2 shot it no matter how tanked it is.
Nova Fox Novafox Shipyards 33	Posted - 2011.10.10 23:14:00 - [81] - Quote 4th bonus would be nice but it has to be mindful what AF's currently are and what they DONT need to be.
Flyinghotpocket Ascetic Virtues 1	Posted - 2011.10.10 23:26:00 - [82] - Quote Skippermonkey wrote: retribution needs another mid slot.... i want a decent assault frigate that uses lasers! (hell, i'd like a decent FRIGATE that uses lasers, at the moment you have a choice of Slicer or nothing) you have the retri dude. just because it doesnt have a the ability to have a AB AND a POINT doesnt mean a dam thing. if you have the conceit to tell me that you cant solo/kill anybody cause they will warp off, go run into a brick wall. That senario of small scale pvp is freaking gone, everybody is packing points, just because 1 ship cant tackle is deemed crap. yea whatever.
Morganta Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia 74	Posted - 2011.10.11 01:01:00 - [83] - Quote I have to admit that I rarely fly my jag mainly because its just an overpriced rifter. I can melt rat BS all day long in it, but for pvp I wouldn't bother with anything over a frig in size, just not worth the cash. The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 13	Posted - 2011.10.11 02:48:00 - [84] - Quote Some AF are simple to fix. Change the Wolf from a 5-2-4 slot layout to a 5-3-3. Give both it and the Jaguar a tracking bonus. Minmatar is done. Give the Enyo a similar 5-3-3 slot layout and another damage bonus. Make the retribution have a 5-2-4 slot layout and armor bonuses on top of it's T2 resists. Give the harpy a tracking bonus. The Hawk, Vengeance, and Ishkur are more difficult and so I won't comment on them.
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home 1	Posted - 2011.10.11 18:09:00 - [85] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Some AF are simple to fix. Change the Wolf from a 5-2-4 slot layout to a 5-3-3. Give both it and the Jaguar a tracking bonus. Minmatar is done. Give the Enyo a similar 5-3-3 slot layout and another damage bonus. Make the retribution have a 5-2-4 slot layout and armor bonuses on top of it's T2 resists. Give the harpy a tracking bonus. The Hawk, Vengeance, and Ishkur are more difficult and so I won't comment on them. Another damage bonus for the Enyo? It already scratches 300dps while still packing an ok(ish) buffer. Enyo's main problem is mobility. What can you do with all the dps in the world if you're too slow to ever reach your target, especially with the sad range of blasters.. Wolf's layout is ok. A 5-3-3 layout would bring up the same problems the Stabber actually has.. a bit of everything, but nothing really good. What I never understood with the Minnie AFs is the distribution of the falloff and optimal bonus. Looking on the other stats of these two ships, optimal and falloff bonus really should be swapped..
Takamori Maruyama Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 12	Posted - 2011.10.11 18:32:00 - [86] - Quote For the Retribution , since its a damn slowboat. Don't need a mid, it wasn't meant for soloing, its a gang ship Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level 5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level That would be a desirable Retribution. Vengeance status: Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Rocket Damage per level 5% bonus to rocket explosion velocity and flight time per level Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level 5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level IMO The Codex Astartes guides us....someone poke and whisper something Oh wrong scenario...WHERE IS MY GIANT AQUARIUM?!
Takamori Maruyama Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 12	Posted - 2011.10.11 19:10:00 - [87] - Quote This subject need some dev love :3 Or even a "AF are neato in the current situation, deal with it" will suffice The Codex Astartes guides us....someone poke and whisper something Oh wrong scenario...WHERE IS MY GIANT AQUARIUM?!
Karl Planck Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos 10	Posted - 2011.10.11 19:41:00 - [88] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: Some AF are simple to fix. Change the Wolf from a 5-2-4 slot layout to a 5-3-3. Give both it and the Jaguar a tracking bonus. Minmatar is done. Give the Enyo a similar 5-3-3 slot layout and another damage bonus. Make the retribution have a 5-2-4 slot layout and armor bonuses on top of it's T2 resists. Give the harpy a tracking bonus. The Hawk, Vengeance, and Ishkur are more difficult and so I won't comment on them. Its apperent you don't fly AF's often. Give jag and wolf a tracking bonus and you will disrupt everything. Giving the enyo a third slot wont do **, its still slow (there are ways around this) Retribuition, your suggestion won't really help it, not really a pvp ship imo. Harpy...wait for the hybrid buff and THEN make a suggestion. Hawk...its fine Venge...its fine Ishkur...its **.......wait...no...its fine
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 13	Posted - 2011.10.11 20:12:00 - [89] - Quote Karl Planck wrote: Zarnak Wulf wrote: Some AF are simple to fix. Change the Wolf from a 5-2-4 slot layout to a 5-3-3. Give both it and the Jaguar a tracking bonus. Minmatar is done. Give the Enyo a similar 5-3-3 slot layout and another damage bonus. Make the retribution have a 5-2-4 slot layout and armor bonuses on top of it's T2 resists. Give the harpy a tracking bonus. The Hawk, Vengeance, and Ishkur are more difficult and so I won't comment on them. Its apperent you don't fly AF's often. Give jag and wolf a tracking bonus and you will disrupt everything. Giving the enyo a third slot wont do **, its still slow (there are ways around this) Retribuition, your suggestion won't really help it, not really a pvp ship imo. Harpy...wait for the hybrid buff and THEN make a suggestion. Hawk...its fine Venge...its fine Ishkur...its **.......wait...no...its fine I've put in enough time behind a Wolf to have valid thoughts on it. The assault frigates are slow. They have trouble applying damage to other frigates unless you strafe rather then orbit. Three lack enough mids. They turn like a brick. They are extremely vulnerable to drones and nuets even when they get into range. They were predesigned not to try to compete with destroyers, which are fail unto themselves. That's just too many prenerfs to exchange for higher DPS and nice EHP. I wouldn't mind if the Jag and Wolf swapped their optimal/falloff bonuses. The arty platform at the least should get a tracking bonus however. It's silly not to. It won't disrupt 'balance' if both the Minmatar AFs get a tracking bonus. There are other ships with double damage bonuses that get tracking bonuses as well. The Claw and the Jag have the same EFT potential. Claw gets a tracking bonus. Dramiel? Or Daredevil with 90% webs? With regards to the argument that destroyers are losing their niche - they need to be burned and rebuilt from scratch anyways.
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 13	Posted - 2011.10.11 20:18:00 - [90] - Quote Knoppaz wrote: Another damage bonus for the Enyo? It already scratches 300dps while still packing an ok(ish) buffer. Enyo's main problem is mobility. What can you do with all the dps in the world if you're too slow to ever reach your target, especially with the sad range of blasters.. Wolf's layout is ok. A 5-3-3 layout would bring up the same problems the Stabber actually has.. a bit of everything, but nothing really good. What I never understood with the Minnie AFs is the distribution of the falloff and optimal bonus. Looking on the other stats of these two ships, optimal and falloff bonus really should be swapped.. The Enyo's DPS advantage over the Wolf is anemic. My wolf setup gets 300 DPS with 17.55km falloff. The double damage bonus is also par for the course with the Enyo's bigger cousin, the Deimos. Any kind of assault ship buff is best kept really simple. The rifter's slot layout is 4-3-3. It's one of the best frigates out there. A wolf is just plain foreign when compared to that platform due to it's two mids. IMHO, a 5-3-3 Wolf with four damage bonuses would be a rifter on steroids - as it should be.

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