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Khador Vess
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
28
   |
Posted - 2012.12.29 22:57:00 -
[31] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Khador Vess wrote:
The Wardec mechanism, as flawed as it still is, is the game's analog of several RL tactics for attacking a competitors business...
I fail to see any. If I'm in a civilised country (let's compare this to High-Sec), there's no way someone can attack and destroy, legally, my assets. they can try to screw my market, which is also true in this game. they can try to poach my employee (pilots), which is also true in this game. they can try to undermine my credibility... this game corporation and market mechanism is somewhat already pretty close to IRL, except for the wardec mechanism, which, in my opinion, is still only a way to grief others.
This is where i believe your analogy breaks down... EvE does not model a civilsed country, its the wild west, its the outback, its the unexplored reaches... it certainly is not civilised.
In any case, plenty of 'civilised countries' where i do business on a weekly / monthly basis operate on the principal that if i want to do business with someone... rather large brown envelopes are the done thing... (hey dont judge...) if i dont like what a competitor is doing i can wreck any chance them being able to do business in that teritory with some well placed envelopes... if i want them gone, there are plenty of territories where..... well lets not go into that particular rabbit hole.
Restricting War Decs, removing them or making them more expensive will not fix the issue. There are legitimate reasons for creating corps and / or dropping out of them them quickly / in quick succession (for example premade corps and standings services) but IMHO you should not restrict peoples ability to corp hop like this... its a game mechanic just like the War Decs... as i said before the more annoying a target becomes the sweeter it will be when you catch them in the end... |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
180
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
It's not even that 50mil is significant. It's the fact that currently you wardec someone and they dissolve the corp and reform it because it's vastly less expensive for them than it is for you to keep war deccing them. Bringing the prices up to be the same will either make it so people don't want to spend 50mil (it can add up) to reform, or at the very least ensure that if the corp is chickening out that they suffer 50mil isk worth of "damages" for the 50mil investment the aggressors had to do. Then if the aggressor wants to keep war deccing, at least the target is spending the same as the aggressor.
If instead of folding their corp they simply avoid logging in for a week, that's fine. At least they're not playing, and you're getting some return out of your investment. You ever wonder why James 315 never gets killed? People have war decced him many times, he simply folds his corp and remakes it because it's so much cheaper to do so, and then he continues playing.
Edit: Looking for a "plausible reason" for spending 50mil creating a corporation is fallacy. You can come up with numerous reasons why 50mil is too much, or why 50mil isn't enough.
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How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Welcome to the only defence small corps have against large pirate and griefer corps. |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
180
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 16:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
That is HARDLY the only defense. People don't like being creative and coming up with solutions, they would much rather use outdated mechanics to cheat the system.
Can't say I blame them, it's certainly easier than fighting yourself, or getting mercs, or staying docked up for a week. That doesn't make it any less dumb.
Shift click to open new window.
How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
634
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 17:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zol Interbottom wrote:War Decs against individual players?
Look at James 315's employment history and get back to me on that.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
176
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 21:03:00 -
[36] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:That is HARDLY the only defense. People don't like being creative and coming up with solutions, they would much rather use outdated mechanics to cheat the system.
Can't say I blame them, it's certainly easier than fighting yourself, or getting mercs, or staying docked up for a week. That doesn't make it any less dumb.
yeah, because a corp of miner, even missionner, is always well skilled for PVP, and we all love to pay for a week of doing nothing but look at a station.
getting mercs is also useless, the chance they play at the same time you do, and/or the cost of it would ruin any profit made from those things.
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Xolve
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
1279
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 21:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Edit: Looking for a "plausible reason" for spending 50mil creating a corporation is fallacy. You can come up with numerous reasons why 50mil is too much, or why 50mil isn't enough.
Look- not all players are PvP-centric, some people (much to my abhorrence) actually like mining and shooting little red boxes. Just because you paid some trivial fee to war dec a corporation at your leisure doesn't mean you should trap them into a war, or force them to play.
The can not log in for a week, and sit you out; or they can move half the world away in some little Hi-Sec island surrounded by Low-Sec. Either way, demanding you get PvP for 50m is pretty laughable request. Do you also think that if you wardec a corp that doesn't generate any kills that you should get a refund? I mean you did pay a whole fifty million isk for the war, right?
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
443
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 22:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:with wardec, you can only destroy.
That would be the point, yes.
Lestatra: Eve is now fully committed to pvp . |
VegasMirage
345
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 22:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Ian Harms wrote:
Ya know in RL to have a corporation you need a support staff, a board of directors, if we made it necessary for corps in eve to have multiple players to begin a corp (maybe 5 toons with certain skills trained) we'd have less crap corps, and possibly insure more corps succeed as any corp needs multiple leaders to manage it.
IRL you can't wardec a corporation.
confirming we need Eve to be more like RL
likes watching grown men cry-á (Gò»n+¦Gò¦,) |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 00:40:00 -
[40] - Quote
Yes, clearly not everybody is pvp-centric. That is a choice that each of us make when we play this game, and every choice, even those, have consequences. Not being able to defend yourself in a meaningful way is a consequence. I'm simply saying that a 50mil isk war dec fee and 50mil isk corp formation fee balances it out for both sides. You want to remake? Fine. Go ahead. Each of you can make the other poor through 50mil isk fees, or figure out a way to fix it without running to the mechanics for the answer.
You know, in this game that involves other players, you can't always play your way. I can't always play mine, either.
Shift click to open new window.
How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Theron Dashto
Pro Synergy
ARK.
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 01:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Yes, clearly not everybody is pvp-centric. That is a choice that each of us make when we play this game, and every choice, even those, have consequences. Not being able to defend yourself in a meaningful way is a consequence.
Declare war against those who want to fight you back. You know, your fellow PvP types? You're whining here because paying 50m to grief small corps is eating a hole in your wallet. Plain and simple.
You are CHOOSING to attack non PvP corps. If they fold up shop to avoid you, that is your consequence. |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 02:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
And what about all those corps that are supplying my enemies with resources, ships, and industrial backbone? I can destroy thousands of ships and it won't matter if they keep getting resupplied.
So what, I war dec the indy types, they fold up shop, and continue on to the next corp and simply keep up with what they're doing. You don't think that's a problem?
Why do you think there's so many suicide ganks these days? Not because there's more "griefers", but rather because people fold up shop constantly, and/or simply stay in the noob corps. The only way to actually do any meaningful damage is to either suicide gank, or join the corp and AWOX people, because it's too easy for the targets to avoid the wars, and continue on unhindered. Even if they docked up and didn't do crap for a week, and I didn't do crap for a week, it'd at least have meaning and impact on the game.
I even do consistent business with my own industrial friends, and I don't think they should be able to avoid war decs so easily either. If they were trapped in a war and forced to fight, I would more than happily come and fight on their behalf. People are just too lazy.
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How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
179
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 02:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:And what about all those corps that are supplying my enemies with resources, ships, and industrial backbone? I can destroy thousands of ships and it won't matter if they keep getting resupplied.
and how exactly do you know which is which? You got supplier too, are you buying from the market? you might as well wardec your own supplyer in your home system!
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FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 02:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Does it really matter? Let's say I have a spy in the enemy corp and am privy to knowledge. The point remains valid regardless.
Shift click to open new window.
How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Dacryphile
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 03:13:00 -
[45] - Quote
If you want to pvp why don't you dec corps that actually want to fight, or get out of high sec? |
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
446
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 03:55:00 -
[46] - Quote
Dacryphile wrote:If you want to pvp why don't you dec corps that actually want to fight, or get out of high sec?
Ah, we've boiled down to the "High sec should be safe for industrialists who don't want to PVP" arguement. That took longer than expected.
EDIT: How are the benefits in Brutor Tribe working for you?
Lestatra: Eve is now fully committed to pvp . |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 04:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Dacryphile wrote:If you want to pvp why don't you dec corps that actually want to fight, or get out of high sec?
That doesn't matter, whatsoever. Industrial corps supplying ships/modules are having a direct impact on my war against those "People who actually want to fight". You expect me to continue an uphill struggle against them without destroying their supply lines?
Shift click to open new window.
How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Theron Dashto
Pro Synergy
ARK.
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 04:28:00 -
[48] - Quote
It just burns your ass that some people are better at avoiding you than you are at hunting them down, doesn't it?
Some people just don't want to PvP. You're trying to force players to play your game, and now you're complaining because they won't. It's kind of silly. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks
474
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 04:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
Alright, then. Industrialists don't have to be touched by PvP. All we ask in return is that PvPers don't have to pay for their ships, modules, or other supplies. Sound fair? |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
179
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 05:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Alright, then. Industrialists don't have to be touched by PvP. All we ask in return is that PvPers don't have to pay for their ships, modules, or other supplies. Sound fair?
they are touched everyday by PVP with ganking.
if you want to destroy the supply line, gank them.
|
Theron Dashto
Pro Synergy
ARK.
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 05:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Alright, then. Industrialists don't have to be touched by PvP. All we ask in return is that PvPers don't have to pay for their ships, modules, or other supplies. Sound fair?
Sounds fair to me. No ships, modules, or other supplies for you then...unless you acquire them from a PvP corp that produces goods. No more hi-sec trade hubs for you, either. You can get all your stuff in null space and pay through the nose for it.
It works both ways.
These corps are going about their business, doing what they want to do to make money. They're not bothering anyone. They make no attempt to interfere with your gameplay in any way whatsoever. Nothing they do in their entire process involves attacking another player. This may be hard for some of you to comprehend, but some people enjoy other challenges offered by the game that do not include PvP.
No one is safe in Eve. We all get it. At the same time, there are a lot of PvP-oriented players who seem to get their jollies off preying on players in hisec. It's not your civic duty to perform the occasional gank just to "keep these carebears in line" or whatever other justification you can come up with. It's just completely unnecessary. If PvP is your thing, there are PLENTY of corps out there doing the exact same things: they're researching blueprints, making ships and goods, and running indy ships full of valuable loot. There's players building POS's in w-space. Why not seek those guys out?
At the end of the day, it all comes back to the same reason: they're not good enough, that's why. If these players really wanted a challenge, they'd seek one out. Why attempt to go after someone who is equally (or better) geared and willing to fight, when they can just gank players who don't? |
Xolve
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
1286
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 05:53:00 -
[52] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:Yes, clearly not everybody is pvp-centric. That is a choice that each of us make when we play this game, and every choice, even those, have consequences. Not being able to defend yourself in a meaningful way is a consequence. I'm simply saying that a 50mil isk war dec fee and 50mil isk corp formation fee balances it out for both sides. You want to remake? Fine. Go ahead. Each of you can make the other poor through 50mil isk fees, or figure out a way to fix it without running to the mechanics for the answer.
You know, in this game that involves other players, you can't always play your way. I can't always play mine, either.
Your paying extra money to essentially get to kill the life out of any corporation you choose, whenever you choose to do so. That's why it's not more expensive, and it won't be.
You sure are posting a whole lot about potentially 48m ISK, if you spent half the time posting belt ratting, mission running, or FW Plexing I doubt that this would be an issue. You dec'd someone and you didn't get to kill anything? Abloo bloo bloo.
Get over it.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
FeralShadow
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Samurai Pizza Cats
183
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 22:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
First, I am quite space rich, so the extra isk really doesn't bug me too much. What does bug me is that the people or person can jump corp and evade the war in its entirety for a paltry 2 mil isk, negating any and all work that has been done to track the targets, figure out what targets are actually the ones I want, and any other work.. Perhaps if corps were actually more meaningful to people, they wouldn't want to jump them so easily, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Second, every single thing that people do in this game has an impact on other people, whether directly or indirectly. By creating ships and goods and selling it to my enemies the industrialists are indirectly affecting my war effort, in a negative way. And I should have the ability to rectify the situation, should I not? By jumping corp and reforming, I am unable to rectify the situation.
If every single industrial corporation created items for their own personal use and never sold them to anybody, then yeah.. you're not affecting anybody.
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How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176
"I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
179
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 04:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:First, I am quite space rich, so the extra isk really doesn't bug me too much. What does bug me is that the people or person can jump corp and evade the war in its entirety for a paltry 2 mil isk, negating any and all work that has been done to track the targets, figure out what targets are actually the ones I want, and any other work.. Perhaps if corps were actually more meaningful to people, they wouldn't want to jump them so easily, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Second, every single thing that people do in this game has an impact on other people, whether directly or indirectly. By creating ships and goods and selling it to my enemies the industrialists are indirectly affecting my war effort, in a negative way. And I should have the ability to rectify the situation, should I not? By jumping corp and reforming, I am unable to rectify the situation.
If every single industrial corporation created items for their own personal use and never sold them to anybody, then yeah.. you're not affecting anybody.
Thx for the laugh!
I'm sure every griefer who wardec a corp is taking to time to "track" their target.
"hey corpmate, look, that corp looks pretty active with all those hulk! let's wardec them! huhuhu!"
on the other hand, if you, doing pvp, are space rich, imagine the industrialist. even if you put the corp creation at 250m, they will change.
there are some people that can't jump corp. if you don't know about them, i'm pretty sure you aren't really tracking anyone. |
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
448
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 07:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:I'm sure every griefer who wardec a corp is taking to time to "track" their target.
Research is an important aspect of being successful at killing people in high sec, even if the targets are not prepared to defend themselves.
Lestatra: Eve is now fully committed to pvp . |
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
136
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 08:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
Posting in a true "HTFU" thread created by those who want to gank helpless highsec noobs. If they only could see the irony themselves... |
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
448
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 08:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Thomas Gore wrote:Posting in a true "HTFU" thread created by those who want to gank helpless highsec noobs. If they only could see the irony themselves...
Hmm. I don't believe the ganking of "helpless highsec noobs" was ever the topic of this thread. Do you read, or just badpoast?
Lestatra: Eve is now fully committed to pvp . |
Media Jessup
LionHead Industries
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 11:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
Khador Vess wrote:
In any case, plenty of 'civilised countries' where i do business on a weekly / monthly basis operate on the principal that if i want to do business with someone... rather large brown envelopes are the done thing... (hey dont judge...) if i dont like what a competitor is doing i can wreck any chance them being able to do business in that teritory with some well placed envelopes... if i want them gone, there are plenty of territories where..... well lets not go into that particular rabbit hole.
Restricting War Decs, removing them or making them more expensive will not fix the issue. There are legitimate reasons for creating corps and / or dropping out of them them quickly / in quick succession (for example premade corps and standings services) but IMHO you should not restrict peoples ability to corp hop like this... its a game mechanic just like the War Decs... as i said before the more annoying a target becomes the sweeter it will be when you catch them in the end...
LoL at large brown envelopes... Btw people who give into corruption like that are what keep those "civilized countries" in quotations.
But I do agree with the second point. If a person is willing to forsake his pride and have a sloppy employment history he should have his own game mechanical for avoiding your griefing/cyber bullying/whatever.
You're no daisy... You're no daisy at all! |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
181
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 14:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:Red Frog Rufen wrote:I'm sure every griefer who wardec a corp is taking to time to "track" their target. Research is an important aspect of being successful at killing people in high sec, even if the targets are not prepared to defend themselves.
a simple check on my corp description would allow anyone to see that there are nothing usefull deccing Red Frog Freight, even before we adopted the permanant war model.
we still got plenty of wardec nonetheless.
|
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
450
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 19:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:a simple check on my corp description would allow anyone to see that there are nothing usefull deccing Red Frog Freight
Your example of limited research tells nothing. People write fake Corp descriptions all the time, either to lure people in or to desperately ward them off.
Killboard statistics will tend to also show the general space that the group likes to reside. If most of their kills/losses are in WH but their corp description says "Highsec Missions 4 Lyfe!" then they are probably not a valid target unless you have their actual WH and are able to fight in that environment.
Similarly, a corp may put "Null sec mining operations!" but have majority of their membership operating in a fringe 0.5 system.
Or the corp description may be something like "Mission, Mining, and Industry corporation! All Welcome!" and has a high chance of being a scammer corp.
Similarly, if a corp has an extremely high tax rate, 50% or a 100% is typical, then the corp is probably all alts for one person or under a CTA. Again, the KB statistics and number of corp members will lend themselves to what it is.
There are other avenues of research but my point is that the corp description is not enough if you are to be effective.
EDIT: As to your comment that you get plenty of Wardecs none-the-less, that is because there are people who are stupid and don't do research and want to catch a shiny freighter.
Lestatra: Eve is now fully committed to pvp . |
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