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Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
2
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Posted - 2013.01.01 11:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi
We recently has a guy black mailing us for isk by using 4 alts to keep incursion sites open in high sec stopin other sites to respawn.
I wouls like to know how is this not a exploit. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
710
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Posted - 2013.01.01 12:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Quote:welcome to eve. here is a rubik's cube, now go fuck yourself.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
96
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Posted - 2013.01.01 14:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote:Hi
We recently has a guy black mailing us for isk by using 4 alts to keep incursion sites open in high sec stopin other sites to respawn.
I wouls like to know how is this not a exploit.
(Faild copy paste)
I would like to know how it its not a exploit, seen the GM telling me as response to my petition that it its ok for him to do so.
I thought the use of game mechanics in any other way that what they are intended to is illegal. And yes he did private convo us and told us in local that we need to pay him or he will stay there blocking the respawns.
Thank you.
Amongst 10 bears you don't have 3 with destroyer flying alts that can gank his alts |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1196
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Posted - 2013.01.01 15:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
why WOULD it be an exploit? |
Kithran
32
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Posted - 2013.01.01 15:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:why WOULD it be an exploit?
Um perhaps because CCP made a change to prevent people holding open sites back in Crucible - http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219
Specifically they made a change to prevent cloaked ships keeping a site open to prevent it despawning.
Now in this case they people holding the sites open are simply using day-old characters in noob ships.
It is perfectly possible to have a few ships to gank said alt, who then simply gets a new noob ship and repeats the process, assuming he doesn't just sit there in his pod - afterall what does it matter if a day old alt gets podded?
Turning your question on its head why WOULDN'T it be an exploit? |
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
2
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Posted - 2013.01.01 17:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
My main char is a 5 year old nul sec pvper so yes First thing i thought was to kill him but he would just get another noob ship.
Not to mention doing that in high would damage my chars more than him.
It should be an exploit because it is abusing a game mechanic.
He is using a game mechanic in a way it was not intended to. Simple as that.
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Solus Starstrike
Voices of Anatole
4
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Posted - 2013.01.01 18:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336
If he is ransoming then by what that states he is doing it for profit and is fine. Just blow em up |
Kithran
33
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Posted - 2013.01.01 20:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
No its not as you can't 'just blow em up' - they are simply alts in noob ships. To blow them up you have to spend isk and lose sec status while they just sit in their pod and still hold the site open. You pod them you lose even more isk and sec status and they just get another free noob ship for no cost.
Also by your argument using cloaked ships to hold sites open would be fine - yet CCP disagreed with you. |
Solus Starstrike
Voices of Anatole
4
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Posted - 2013.01.01 20:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote:
I would like to know how it its not a exploit, seen the GM telling me as response to my petition that it its ok for him to do so.
apparently a gm did say it was ok. Eve is sand box If a bully comes and takes all your toys, you punch him back. Dont complain that you may get a few scrapes in the fight. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
619
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Posted - 2013.01.01 20:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kithran wrote:Jack Miton wrote:why WOULD it be an exploit? Um perhaps because CCP made a change to prevent people holding open sites back in Crucible - http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219Specifically they made a change to prevent cloaked ships keeping a site open to prevent it despawning. Now in this case they people holding the sites open are simply using day-old characters in noob ships. It is perfectly possible to have a few ships to gank said alt, who then simply gets a new noob ship and repeats the process, assuming he doesn't just sit there in his pod - afterall what does it matter if a day old alt gets podded? Turning your question on its head why WOULDN'T it be an exploit?
You answered your own question, CCP changed the rules so that cloaked ships can't hold open a gate.
Furthermore;
Quote:Also by your argument using cloaked ships to hold sites open would be fine - yet CCP disagreed with you.
Now CCP is disagreeing with YOU and now YOU are pissed. CCPs stance is that cloaked ships are not allowed to hold open a gate and uncloaked ships are.
It is 100% not an exploit as the issue has been adressed and rectified by the developers.
And there is no excuse for tears whatsoever with the new bounty system. 10 people making 100+ mil an hour cant be arsed to put out some bounties? Fuckin pathetic.
From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
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Kithran
34
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Posted - 2013.01.01 20:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Kithran wrote:Jack Miton wrote:why WOULD it be an exploit? Um perhaps because CCP made a change to prevent people holding open sites back in Crucible - http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219Specifically they made a change to prevent cloaked ships keeping a site open to prevent it despawning. Now in this case they people holding the sites open are simply using day-old characters in noob ships. It is perfectly possible to have a few ships to gank said alt, who then simply gets a new noob ship and repeats the process, assuming he doesn't just sit there in his pod - afterall what does it matter if a day old alt gets podded? Turning your question on its head why WOULDN'T it be an exploit? You answered your own question, CCP changed the rules so that cloaked ships can't hold open a gate. Furthermore; Quote:Also by your argument using cloaked ships to hold sites open would be fine - yet CCP disagreed with you. Now CCP is disagreeing with YOU and now YOU are pissed. CCPs stance is that cloaked ships are not allowed to hold open a gate and uncloaked ships are. It is 100% not an exploit as the issue has been adressed and rectified by the developers. And there is no excuse for tears whatsoever with the new bounty system. 10 people making 100+ mil an hour cant be arsed to put out some bounties? Fuckin pathetic.
You seem unable to follow the logic, allow me to spell it out for you:
CCP have already said that it is not ok to hold a site open perpetually in a way that cannot be countered (by using a cloaked ship).
I am saying that it is equally not possible to counter people using multiple day old alts in noob ships to hold sites open thus this practice should also be disallowed.
As for suggesting bounties you obviously don't know how bounties work - you could put a billion credit bounty on these alts, it doesn't let you attack them without concord blowing you away and it isn't going to encourage anyone else to attack them - they are flying noob ships so the bounty payout is nothing.
People responding with things like just punch him back seem to be just seem to be using the old 'its a sandbox' argument - well if its a sandbox and (to use an equally old arguement) there should be no reward without risk you seem to be missing the fact the people doing this HAVE NO RISK - they pay nothing for their ships or for their clones.
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
621
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Posted - 2013.01.01 21:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
And what I am saying is your idea was considered and rejected. Logic and all. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
Kithran
35
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Posted - 2013.01.01 21:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:And what I am saying is your idea was considered and rejected. Logic and all.
I see nothing saying that my idea has been considered beyond a gm response of working as intended.
Unless you are claiming GMs have never been known to make a mistake that hardly considers proof - how do you even know GMs were aware of the precedent I have cited? |
Solus Starstrike
Voices of Anatole
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 21:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Its funny, By reading this thread you can see the two diffrent main mind sets of eve players. The ones who accept the game for what it is ( a harsh and brutal environment ) and thrive in said environment , And those that believe ccp Should fix all their problems for them, and perfer to avoid confrontation.
From what i have read the person isnt cloaked and is a easy target. You are incursion runners isk shouldn't be a issue nor should numbers to achieve a successful gank. The only thing that is stopping you from fixing the situation is you, and until a dev steps in and takes a stand on it thats the best advice i can give ya. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
621
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 21:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kithran wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:And what I am saying is your idea was considered and rejected. Logic and all. I see nothing saying that my idea has been considered beyond a gm response of working as intended. Unless you are claiming GMs have never been known to make a mistake that hardly considers proof - how do you even know GMs were aware of the precedent I have cited?
I mean the devs had to decide how they wanted the mechanic to function whenever they made the balance change. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1000
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 22:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Regardless of the mechanic (which personally I think is S**ty, but also part of the game), where is the huge problem?
I'm not an expert at incursions and their spawns (whether they are system to system vs constellation wide). But this guy is only mucking up 4 correct? So ignore him. Move a system over and continue. He can't camp them forever (downtime will see to that) at which time the sites will end, and everyone gets their payout correct?
When I have run incursions I have seen more than 4 sites in a system at a given time, so he can't be locking up all of the sites.
Do that a few days and there is a good likelihood he will find some other community to annoy. |
Vengeance Thirst
Sons Of Decebal
3
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 22:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Regardless of the mechanic (which personally I think is S**ty, but also part of the game), where is the huge problem?
I'm not an expert at incursions and their spawns (whether they are system to system vs constellation wide). But this guy is only mucking up 4 correct? So ignore him. Move a system over and continue. He can't camp them forever (downtime will see to that) at which time the sites will end, and everyone gets their payout correct?
When I have run incursions I have seen more than 4 sites in a system at a given time, so he can't be locking up all of the sites.
Do that a few days and there is a good likelihood he will find some other community to annoy.
In a hq system there is 4 normal sited and 1 boss site that you need to complete to close the incursion and the lp payment.
Although it is constellation wide every system has a different level of difficulty (hq highest and best pay).
Moving around other systems to make lower level less pay sites its fine but that is not the issue.
Issue is simple. Someone is abusing game mechanics in a way it was not intended to make profit and stop others from enjoying the game.
If it was null sec this was not a problem as he'd be killed by now. Problem is this is not nullsec this is highsec and we can't go around killing noob ships and pods every 5min the time it would take him to get in a new noob ship and come back.
I got 3 accounts all up and running i can make other things for isk so its not huge issue for me but its a matter of fair play, something that the gm's apparently don't know about. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1197
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 22:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kithran wrote:Jack Miton wrote:why WOULD it be an exploit? Um perhaps because CCP made a change to prevent people holding open sites back in Crucible - http://community.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp?newpatchlogID=3219Specifically they made a change to prevent cloaked ships keeping a site open to prevent it despawning. Now in this case they people holding the sites open are simply using day-old characters in noob ships. It is perfectly possible to have a few ships to gank said alt, who then simply gets a new noob ship and repeats the process, assuming he doesn't just sit there in his pod - afterall what does it matter if a day old alt gets podded? Turning your question on its head why WOULDN'T it be an exploit?
you dont need to cloak to do this so your argument is irrelevant |
Herr Ronin
42 LVL's of Infinity SQUEE.
296
|
Posted - 2013.01.01 23:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote:Hi
We recently has a guy black mailing us for isk by using 4 alts to keep incursion sites open in high sec stopin other sites to respawn.
I wouls like to know how is this not a exploit.
(Faild copy paste)
I would like to know how it its not a exploit, seen the GM telling me as response to my petition that it its ok for him to do so.
I thought the use of game mechanics in any other way that what they are intended to is illegal. And yes he did private convo us and told us in local that we need to pay him or he will stay there blocking the respawns.
Thank you.
*Get's Popcorn* |
Tauranon
Weeesearch
97
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 00:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kithran wrote:
Also by your argument using cloaked ships to hold sites open would be fine - yet CCP disagreed with you.
There is no (practical) mechanism for locating a cloaked ship anywhere on a grid, hence they are not allowed to prevent despawns. |
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Ember Klahan
Procyon Resources Honey Badger Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 01:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
It is almost free to gank noobships and pods, and -10 sec status will not stop you from doing so.
For future reference, a rule of thumb on exploits is that if it *can* be done using game mechanics it is very, very likely not an exploit. Examples of not-exploits include:
-People doing more damage in incursion sites than competing fleets, thus "winning" the payout. -People shooting at you in high security space, even if you didn't shoot at them. -People destroying your ship in high security space, even if you haven't met them before. -People pod-killing you in high security space, even if you were friends with their mother. -People holding open PvE sites with cheap decloaked ships. -People attempting to profit from the aforementioned action. -People running PvE sites.
Examples of exploits are: -People holding open PvE sites with cheap cloaked ships. -People suicide ganking, successfully or unsuccessfully, in hisec without losing their ship. -People winning incursion sites by doing less damage than the competing fleet. -People causing NPCs to pod you. -People shooting you and bypassing your shields and armor. -People using the EVE Online client to steal your hamster.
You'll note that, with the exception of the last example (and the only ways you could do that with the client are ways that could also be accomplished using basically any chat client or other communication method), the non-exploits are possible and the exploits are impossible, within game mechanics. |
amurder Hakomairos
Fellowship Of Lost Souls Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 03:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
So just make yourself a day old alt and fly ur noobship to the site and kill them with your civilian autocannon. |
Kithran
36
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Posted - 2013.01.02 07:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Solus Starstrike wrote:Its funny, By reading this thread you can see the two diffrent main mind sets of eve players. The ones who accept the game for what it is ( a harsh and brutal environment ) and thrive in said environment , And those that believe ccp Should fix all their problems for them, and perfer to avoid confrontation.
From what i have read the person isnt cloaked and is a easy target. You are incursion runners isk shouldn't be a issue nor should numbers to achieve a successful gank. The only thing that is stopping you from fixing the situation is you, and until a dev steps in and takes a stand on it thats the best advice i can give ya.
You miss the point - I'm saying the problem is they are able to do this AT NO RISK.
The issue isn't in ganking them - its being done left, right and centre - the issue is because they are day old alts they are back in the matter of minutes.
So tell me - how is this 'harsh and brutal' to them? |
Kithran
36
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Posted - 2013.01.02 07:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ember Klahan wrote:It is almost free to gank noobships and pods, and -10 sec status will not stop you from doing so.
For future reference, a rule of thumb on exploits is that if it *can* be done using game mechanics it is very, very likely not an exploit. Examples of not-exploits include:
-People doing more damage in incursion sites than competing fleets, thus "winning" the payout. -People shooting at you in high security space, even if you didn't shoot at them. -People destroying your ship in high security space, even if you haven't met them before. -People pod-killing you in high security space, even if you were friends with their mother. -People holding open PvE sites with cheap decloaked ships. -People attempting to profit from the aforementioned action. -People running PvE sites.
Examples of exploits are: -People holding open PvE sites with cheap cloaked ships. -People suicide ganking, successfully or unsuccessfully, in hisec without losing their ship. -People winning incursion sites by doing less damage than the competing fleet. -People causing NPCs to pod you. -People shooting you and bypassing your shields and armor. -People using the EVE Online client to steal your hamster.
You'll note that, with the exception of the last example (and the only ways you could do that with the client are ways that could also be accomplished using basically any chat client or other communication method), the non-exploits are possible and the exploits are impossible, within game mechanics.
And your first example in the exploit list was in the not-exploit list until CCP looked at it and decided it was an exploit and changed game mechanics.
Now I know how hard it is to properly search these forums but I feel pretty confident you'd find threads saying 'people are holding sites opened with cloaked alts, this is an exploit, problem etc' prior to that change. How is this different?
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Kithran
36
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Posted - 2013.01.02 07:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Herr Ronin wrote:Vengeance Thirst wrote:Hi
We recently has a guy black mailing us for isk by using 4 alts to keep incursion sites open in high sec stopin other sites to respawn.
I wouls like to know how is this not a exploit.
(Faild copy paste)
I would like to know how it its not a exploit, seen the GM telling me as response to my petition that it its ok for him to do so.
I thought the use of game mechanics in any other way that what they are intended to is illegal. And yes he did private convo us and told us in local that we need to pay him or he will stay there blocking the respawns.
Thank you. Is This A TVP Member - Checklist:Current OP has no clue about game mechanic's - CheckCurrent OP makes it known to the world he has a problem - CheckCurrent OP lacks some common sense and change to a different site, Vanguard, Assault etc - CheckCurrent OP is sick of griefers stealing "there" sites - CheckConclusion - TVP pilot need attentionOk, silliness aside for a moment, know i can understand why people are doing this and they have been doing this for a very long time, ask yourself why they re doing it? It is rather simple, to make you cry and make it known to the world that you are indeed crying, good job on that regard! You need to understand that there is still "Mechanics" in this game that is indeed "broken", I can write you a healthy list, but the fact still stands that you need to understand that people will abuse these Mechanics, Nobody will get banned or told off, due to CCP have got bigger problems on there plate, I understand that this annoying you but please you some brain cells and maybe downgrade to a Assault, Vanguard etc, it isn't that hard. I really cannot see a problem here, but indeed you lack the information judging by you contacting a GM, It is indeed a Game Mechanic and he is doing nothing wrong what so ever, am afraid you just need to bring your portable tear bucket for the times ahead! No but really, I think you can handle this problem if you give it some thought.
A totally irrelevant post adding nothing.
Oh and ISN are also being hit by this, and complaining about this ;)
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Mexan Caderu
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.01.02 11:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vengeance Thirst wrote:Hi
We recently has a guy black mailing us for isk by using 4 alts to keep incursion sites open in high sec stopin other sites to respawn.
Yesterday my ganking alt was a bit unprepared, but today I have hauled for him a few dozen ships n' fittings for him.
Related ..why the heck killing pods gives such a big negative .. ? Only killed 2 pods and a ship yesterday and hes down to -3.3 sec ... Seems a bit too steep |
Ember Klahan
Procyon Resources Honey Badger Coalition
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 16:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kithran wrote:
And your first example in the exploit list was in the not-exploit list until CCP looked at it and decided it was an exploit and changed game mechanics.
Now I know how hard it is to properly search these forums but I feel pretty confident you'd find threads saying 'people are holding sites opened with cloaked alts, this is an exploit, problem etc' prior to that change. How is this different?
Correct and incorrect. There is no difference, but neither is an example of exploitation. Holding open sites in a cloaked ship was never an exploit intrinsically, it just became so once it became impossible within mechanics. CCP didn't decide it was an exploit, they decided they didn't like the mechanic, and changed it. They actively chose not to change the mechanic to include decloaked ships. Saying that players are exploiting in either case is incorrect; saying that you have issue with the game mechanic as-is is correct, partially. Since the mechanic has already been reviewed, it is very unlikely it will change.
Let's do a hyptothetical example: because of something CCP decides to do with the game, CONCORD disappears, or there is a way within game mechanics to escape it. People take advantage of this and suicide gank without the suicide. Other people become angry and start whining that it is an exploit. Other players attempt to explain to them that it is not an exploit, as it is allowed within game mechanics. Eventually CCP decides that, while not an exploit, they don't like the mechanic as-is and return CONCORD to it's current state. People no longer can get away from CONCORD, but continue to suicide gank. If other players started whining that the suicide gankers were exploiting, they would still be wrong, and we'd be in pretty much the same situation we are in now.
Basically, the thread is pointless because the mechanic has already been reviewed, but belongs in the features and ideas forum instead of here. |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 17:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Here is the issue. We blow his newb ship up and he sits there in a pod. We pop the pod and another newb ship warps in when we kill that one the original newb ship we just killed is back again.. It is not possile to break the hold on the sites as this person or persons just continues to warp in newb ships to hold open the site. You cannot gank them to open the site as they just bring another pilot in while the original popped pilot runs for another newb ship.
Why is it some 2 day old alts can stop hundreds of players from using a system with NO risk. There is absolutely no counter to this tactic. |
lolfesterbling
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 18:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ahvram wrote: Also I spoke to a player who's Alt has been trying to keep this person off the sites. The players holding sites open have filed multiple petitions about being griefed by the player trying to gank these newb ship and the alt was issued a temp ban for griefing. This person is exploiting the system and CCP at this point and something needs to be done.
I call horse **** cause i am the one who has been holding the sites open and neither you or anyone else has talked to me . In any way but local trash talk. And also No petitions have been filed about yall trying to get me . Get at me bro, and also on that note failing to ganke a noob ship and pod with 4 catalysts is sooo fail .But anywho i liove how you imake up **** to try to prove your point and remember. For 10 mil a site you can have your lovely hq's |
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.02 18:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
lolfesterbling wrote:Ahvram wrote: Also I spoke to a player who's Alt has been trying to keep this person off the sites. The players holding sites open have filed multiple petitions about being griefed by the player trying to gank these newb ship and the alt was issued a temp ban for griefing. This person is exploiting the system and CCP at this point and something needs to be done.
I call horse **** cause i am the one who has been holding the sites open and neither you or anyone else has talked to me . In any way but local trash talk. And also No petitions have been filed about yall trying to get me . Get at me bro, and also on that note failing to ganke a noob ship and pod with 4 catalysts is sooo fail .But anywho i liove how you imake up **** to try to prove your point and remember. For 10 mil a site you can have your lovely hq's
Cool story bro but your full of it. Keep it up I cant wait for the ban hammer to smack you in the face. Honestly Im suprised the coward showed up in this thread. He isnt the only one doing this he is just a copy cat trying to be a cool guy. |
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