I'm sure everyone will agree that the minutes contain nothing that could possibly be construed as controversial.

Happy reading to you all.

:)

Your cheek probably is outright punctured by that tongue in it

Nice work CSM / CCP dudes for both getting these out quickly and making them highly detailed.

Don't suppose there's an ETA for the Dust parts though?

I'm 1/3 of the way in, on the "next 10 years" and previous meeting and it seems like CCP is once again turning into this, "we'll make decisions then showcase them to the CSM!" mentality.

Good job I didn't have any plans for the evening!

Seagull: Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. They are people who run mad spreadsheets to organize production lines for war efforts, they are people who manage roles and membership of big corporations and alliances, they build tools to do different tasks. And we kind of have a history of treating these people likeGǪ****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work.

Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that GÇ£is what will kill the businessGÇ¥.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Just this afternoon we got an infodump from CCP, asking for our feedback on the earliest stages of their planning for the next expansion and beyond -- this is well before any decisions have been made.

It seems like the wardec discussion got a bit heated.

There was a definite step away from rhetoric suggesting exact features and changes. My best guess would be that this is an "expectation management" exercise. Not necessarily a bad thing either.

Could someone from the CSM confirm if this was intentional and discussed?

So let me get this straight in terms of what i read pertaining to the FW discussion...

The caldari are having "demoralization issues"..

Did anyone on the CSM or part of these meetings even bother to talk to any of us directly, in private conversation? If so, did you take into account what corp or alliance you talked to? I implore people from the CSM or devs to contact me directly, and hear what my alliance believes to be our "issues". I honestly don't feel like we (Caldari Militia) have been properly represented as an entity. I approach you all on the level, and hope to have the same done to myself.

CSM doods: What ship redesigns were you shown?


And I'll summarize the important part of the minutes:

CCP: "LULZ. YOU THOUGHT WE WERE REDOING POSES. LULZ."

So, basically, a nice FU there.

This is where CCP comes into the thread and pretends they haven't been raising our hopes on modular POSes the last year and that it was all in our heads.

Simply taking existing modules and and prettying them up and making them snap together in a modular way does not touch sovereignty. It doesn't have to change how ANYTHING else is done..

GÇ£We need things that only a few people can achieve, but it shouldnGÇÖt be based on how long youGÇÖve played the gameGÇ¥.

I hope I am wrong, but I get the impression there is no POS revamp/design coming? The "right team is not available" excuse has run its course and now the truth is coming out. Everyone seems to agree they need to be reworked. But unless we can sell it as a full release, you are SOL.

Too bad that magical team wasn't available before the release design changes. Instead we got the inventory changes. (Now these were not all bad, but I still firmly believe those changes should have been way behind a POS revamp)

Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It
would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and
effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that GÇ£is what will kill the businessGÇ¥.

there isn't exactly a thread on the change in direction re:modular POSs and they're spread throughout the minutes, so I'm going to stand here on my soapbox and yell into the wind, and hope someone pays attention

Soundwave added that the alliance structure as it exists today
needs to be reworked. It doesn't exist the same way a corporation in Eve does and he noticed it became
very difficult to talk about resources and infrastructure without dealing with alliances as an in-game
construct.

Thank you CCP. So far from what I have read there is vast evidence you do indeed play the game, take player feed back and give great consideration towards ideas we come up with. I am looking forward to 2013 playing EVE with great interest.

Goons laid out the agenda in a previous thread which has since been locked

High-sec continues to be bashed discredited and otherwise trashed

Pos Revamp canceled to prevent Nullsec from losing their stranglehold on Just about everything including the rampant inflation

no talk about Walking in Stations, direct interaction with dust 514 staff, and a number of other issues.

no talk about the removal of titans or ending the CFC circlejerk.

Fozzie replied that after the farming nerf, enrollment was
down 10-15% (mostly farmers leaving), but has been creeping up again, except for Caldari which has
some demoralization issues. Soundwave noted that overall, things are stable, and Fozzie added that last
week was the 3rd most active week in terms of PvP.

So much talk about sov space, nothing about high/low/NPC null. Before you start worrying so much about nullsec stuff, wouldn't it be a good idea to look at the High>Low>Null progression first? So that more people, you know, have a reason to care about nullsec features? That'd be nice.

caldari do have demoralization issues because of DEVs who ****** up situation in FW but that is not a reason why caladri is not creeping up again, reason is that there is no point to be on caldari side because rewards suck and you can do lot of more isk on gallente side. You can not really recruit players for role play reasons when other side recruits for big isk.

Caldari sure could take systems and change better income to caldari side, but why to do so when you can instantly make big isk on gallente side without any effort.

Current FW is worst version of FW ever.

Do high five to Fozzie ... he is doing his job ... pretty good. Lets see how public this issue will go, was recently contacted by some outside MMO media about little **** in CCP. :)

maybe they should copy FW sov mechanics directly to 0.0 because it is so good and working

Greene Lee closed the meeting by asking about the Drone UI and if there was any progress on the
GÇ£Drones as modulesGÇ¥ concept art shown at FanFest. Arrow mentioned that it is fairly complex as there are
different drones with different purposes, but Two step asked for just a way to be able to attack/recall them
with a button.
...
Elise asked about the current drone interface, and it was agreed that the interface at present is not good,
with Kelduum referring to it as GÇ£hilariousGÇ¥, although Team Pony Express are not sure where this is in the
pipeline.

Alice asked what the CSM thought about those topics. Trebor thought that the ideas were fine, but
questioned why CCP would duplicate effort that the community is already doing. He suggested that CCP
concentrate on building the tools to better enable the community to build some of the applications. Alice
said that CCP wanted to focus on the mainstream tools that the players use. She did acknowledge that it
was CCP playing catch up, but she said it was important for CCP to provide the major tools that people
need.

Also shown were a series of monochromatic revamped UI icons (some already seen in the new factional
warfare and war declaration UIs), which are intentionally very different from in-game items, which are
much more detailed and colored.
...
Sisyphus explained that for summer they will be prototyping a new radial menu system to replace the
existing in-space version using mouse gestures, and eventually the right-click menus.
This will start with the in-space version of the menus, in an attempt to move the interaction in EVE to a
GÇÿleft-clickGÇÖ like most other games/programs/web-pages.

Sharq then said they want to add animations for docking and undocking, for example the ship turning toward the corridor when undocking before their screen fades to black, setting the mood better. Elise
agreed that as long as it doesn't take any longer than the existing undock process, that would be nice.
Sharq also mentioned that the Art team were excited about adding runway lights and other things when
docking.

stargate jumps are up 20%.

POSes affect almost everyone in game either directly or indirectly (t2 materials anyone?). The UIs are buggy, industry at POSes is a ballache, they are practically compulsory in w-space. Please don't overlook them!

Do you guys even grasp what you are talking about?



On a more constructive note: I have dealt with POS in the past. I don't do much POS work anymore now. Did it ever cross your mind that the small group of people doing POS stuff these days might grow vastly, if POS are actually not a reason to hurt yourself anymore?

(This is obviously directed at CCP, not the CSM)

Greetings to CCP and CSM,

I want to congratulate you one what seems to be a very successful gathering. You both seem to have hashed something to be relished. The new direction sounds promising and the new Custodian's of the EVE Universe seem to have a good grasp on what they want and perhaps what we want.

However in the course document I became extremely discourage. Perhaps I didn't read enough or didn't comprehend everything that was said, but from the nature of the minutes it seems that the idea of Modular POS's has been side lined if not completely scraped by the development team.

The idea's given to us several months ago were a beautiful reminder to me of the awe and potential of EVE. The honest truth is I've always wanted to have a little section of EVE that was distinctly my own. Something the current system of POS's does not provide to someone who by accountability terms for EVE would be considered a "Lurker". While I know it's possible open a Starbase in the current system. The thing purposed to the CSM's and the inadvertently the rest of the player base was exactly what I've always wanted. I've always wanted a home floating around the Planet of my choosing, so I could claim a little section of High sec for myself. I even have a little planetary Orbit I've picked out already.

Under the plans described to CSM back before the beginning of the new year I was excited and began actively playing again. Now the ball has been yanked out again, and a potentially great feature was taken away with no argument or consideration for what could become a very viable aspect of EVE if it was nurtured. Rather it was casually swept under the rug because it would be to constraining to impalement. Because it would effect to few players. Well if you had chosen to look into expanding the versatility and desire would undoubtedly increase. I know I would be making a new home in space.

The new Dev blogs even more outrageously continued to list POS's as part of the changes potential changes. While I know it was stated that it might not reflect the final list. They then cold handedly rip any continued idea of the aforementioned Modular POS's out because they don't THINK it will effect enough of us.

Well, it would have affected me if you had chosen to do it. I would have been ready to dumb hundreds of millions of ISK or probably hundreds of dollars in Real cash to make my little space home in EVE a reality.

For the futures sake CCP, and CSM's I hope you reconsider this course of action.

Thank you for listening, It's time I go back to lurking.

-Tal

The general feeling from CCP is that if bounties are not causing people to leave the game then they arenGÇÖt likely to put resources on to a problem that doesnGÇÖt exist.

The goal would be to ensure they understand that having a bounty doesnGÇÖt make them attackable in highsec, which Solomon confirmed was a point of confusion on the forums even for experienced players.

Ripley chimed in that she had asked for a report on this from Customer Support and so far the number of people that have petitioned that the bounty system is harassment has been 40.

The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.

WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!

WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!

What is the problem exactly?

I do not wish to have a bounty because for a question in a help channel, for declining a convo, or for declining to go into a player corp etc.

The current bounty system is just a griefing tool. NOTHING MORE!
I have NEVER done something illegal! I just play AND PAY (!!!!) the game for nearly 5 years! ANd now I got an a$$kick from CCP's like Soundwave and Punkturis who thinks that it would be cool to grief old players with a bounty, but exlude the WHOLE CCP-staff from bounties. Try to spend a bounty on Soundwave or other GM's; DEV's or Volunteers!
Loyality Awards for old players? LOL! I have a bounty on my head for nothing. Thats fair CCP? Why should I pay EVERY MONTH in real money to play a game where I got hate from the developers?
I do not calm down. After 5 years continued subscription with a lot of money You can not expect that I do this! I just close all my accounts!

But could you please explain what is the problem with having a bounty? As you understand, you can also place a bounty on anyone if you see it appropriate.



Why does the bounty grief you? AFAIK it does not hinder your gameplay in any way. Please explain why this is a problem.

I explained it with: "It is a griefing tool." I got bounties from pilots I never meet nor I had done a harm to them.

And your argument "It does not effect my gamestyle" is not correct. It effects my game style. I am proud of my reputation and do not wish to have a bounty sign for NOTHING!

Example: For me the WANTED sign is the same as some one would say "fugg you" "dumb a$$hole" or would otherwise harass me!
I am not a criminal; I never want to be handled like a criminal without a reason!
I demand the border for not beeing able to spend bounties on chars with positive security rating. EXACT as it was before Retribution!

Ask yourself why CCP has exluded themself of getting bounties! They know that CCP Soundwave will be the most wanted. They saw it on the testserver! If he deserves the bounty is not the question now. But he would be the most wanted.

Bah, I want the old CCP back. The one that wasn't afraid of anything, who not only dreamt but also boldly did.
And now it's hiding behind phrases like, POS revamp is too big or it only affects small groups.

It's sad to see that the previous CSM minutes where just ink on paper.

POS management is a disaster and corp management pure hell. Yet CCP is too afraid to fix it, even in small steps.


In short, I'm very disappointed. Maybe time to vote with my wallet after 5 years.

"It's a griefing tool" does not explain anything. I think you have obviously done harm to someone, and they put a bounty on you for their own reasons.

You are not being handled like a criminal, the bounty just means that someone out there does not like you, and is willing to pay some ISK to get your spaceship exploded. It is not in any way related to security status. Furthermore, low security status does not automatically make someone "bad"- if someone attacks me in lowsec, his security status is lowered. Even though I wanted him to attack me.

Would you place a bounty on Soundwave? Is that what you want to do? Do you want revenge?

I am a good guy who helped many years in the official german hilfe channel. But now you get bounties for writing there. You have no bounty at present? NOW YOU HAVE!
Good guys do not want to get marked as bad guy!
It is just a psychological issue for me. But it is enough to cancel my accounts after nearly 5 years continued sub and leave EVE for ever.

IT IS JUST BECAUSE OF THE BOUNTY SYSTEM CCP! READ THIS! At least one customer lost to the crappy bounty system!
How many do you need before you overthink this daft system again?

Back up. We COULD get ponies?

What I see taking hold at CCP is something in business circles is called "Analysis Paralysis".

A bunch of really smart people sitting around convincing each other why they can't accomplish anything big because they can tear holes in each others ideas all day long. Not to mention fear of another Incarna.

Killed off walking in stations, okay. Next big idea is ring mining, put that off for POS revamp. POS redesign doesn't effect enough people due to the design of POSes (yes that is intended to point out the circular logic). Do they go back to Ring Mining? No. I am sure that's been thoroughly debunked internally at this point.

We have a big blank. A vision to have a vision.

I have seen this in companies before and I can tell you it doesn't end well, unless they can snap out of it.

CCP, get behind an idea and have faith in yourselves that you can work out the details. You guys are clearly smart people just getting in your own way right now.

What I see taking hold at CCP is something in business circles is called "Analysis Paralysis".

A bunch of really smart people sitting around convincing each other why they can't accomplish anything big because they can tear holes in each others ideas all day long. Not to mention fear of another Incarna.

Killed off walking in stations, okay. Next big idea is ring mining, put that off for POS revamp. POS redesign doesn't effect enough people due to the design of POSes (yes that is intended to point out the circular logic). Do they go back to Ring Mining? No. I am sure that's been thoroughly debunked internally at this point.

We have a big blank. A vision to have a vision.

I have seen this in companies before and I can tell you it doesn't end well, unless they can snap out of it.

CCP, get behind an idea and have faith in yourselves that you can work out the details. You guys are clearly smart people just getting in your own way right now.

Dude... I have some sympathy for your complaint, but seriously, you quit the game because of it? That's a bit over the top. And since when did rage-quit ever get anyone anywhere?

The general feeling from CCP is that if bounties are not causing people to leave the game then they arenGÇÖt likely to put resources on to a problem that doesnGÇÖt exist.

Listen CCP. Two Accounts canceled! Two from me. I know many others that also canceled during your daft new bounty system!
Perhaps it is a rage quit.. But I want to see it as a last chance to tell CCP how I think about their bad work!

Grow up.

Retribution was releaesed over a month ago. If there was problem with people quitting over the bounty system they'd know by now.

Here's a hint, people aren't.
Except you and a couple others. So you're SoL guy.

Yeah! You know all facts and numbers? Just because it is not interesting for YOU and you do not talk to other peoples about that issue and therefore you do not know the problem, does not mean that there is no problem!
I have talked to others.. there are a lot of other players. I am not allone.

Yeah! You know all facts and numbers? Just because it is not interesting for YOU and you do not talk to other peoples about that issue and therefore you do not know the problem, does not mean that there is no problem!
I have talked to others.. there are a lot of other players. I am not allone.

Was trying to read all of the comments in this thread before posting, but every time I finish a page, a new one has appeared!

Enjoyed reading those minutes (ALL 113 PAGES). Whatever anyone's opinion of the outcomes is, I think we should all thank the members of the CSM for taking the time to attend and then put together such detailed minutes.

I felt, after reading the 'Next Decade' section that an opportunity was missed. It seems to me that Unifex was almost imploring the CSM for ideas for a theme and features to be included in the summer expansion, and yet they never really took the opportunity to offer any.

I don't care a whole lot about many of the specific things discussed - I'm sure that goes for many people - but I can't help feeling that the CSM always gets too bogged down in the micro-management of the game and its features and isn't great at taking a step back and getting involved in the discussion about the bigger, strategic picture, despite Unifex's attempts to illicit that discussion.

On a more positive notes, I like the strategy CCP are adopting in terms of themed expansions, with something for everyone. I like the idea of better, prettier transitions when docking and undocking (subject to no increase in wait times). The discussion about live events was very exciting.

On the topic of changes to the CSM voting mechanism, a lot of good points were raised, but I don't feel any good conclusions were reached. I'd like to see somebody like me (maybe even me!) be able to have a shot at running for CSM and then representing the views of players like me, which doesn't happen at the moment. But this doesn't seem like a realistic prospect, even under any of the proposed new systems.

You have no idea how many people I talk, or the amount of time I spend preaching the gospel of EVE, but I guarantee you I'm spending more time getting others to play this game than you can possibly imagine. I spend far more time trying to convince people to play this game than I probably should.

People are not quitting left and right over the bounty system and I know this because they would have said in the minutes that they had plans to rectify a problem.

YOU didn't understand that CCP was telling YOU that there is NO PROBLEM.
You're so hurt over a stupid tag in the game that even when you're told no problem exists you can't hear it.


More than a month after it's introduction they know what it's impact was, and it wasn't enough to warrant changes. You're two accounts is trivial.

Thank you making me laugh!
But I think you missed some facts:

FIRST: Patch notes for EVE Online: Retribution 1.0 ->Released on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
SECOND: Last December, the 12th to the 14th 2012, the CSM visited Iceland for a scheduled series of sessions with the EVE Online developers.

CCP barely has enough valid datas to be completely sure that there is no problem. Not enough time for a funded analysis i think.

Thank you for making me laugh!
But I think you missed some facts:

FIRST: Patch notes for EVE Online: Retribution 1.0 ->Released on Tuesday, December 4, 2012
SECOND: Last December, the 12th to the 14th 2012, the CSM visited Iceland for a scheduled series of sessions with the EVE Online developers.

CCP barely has enough valid datas to be completely sure that there is no problem. Not enough time for a funded analysis i think.

So I have to insist on my opinion.. There IS a problem.. I know many people who do not like the new bounty system.

40 people with petitions concerning the new bounty system within 8 days! OK.. you say there is no problem.. I say you have missed the time frame.

One note: I know you are a Goon.. but please dont be so condescending .

POS and corp management affect a lot more people than the ones who directly manage POS or corps.

My corp lives in wspace and we like it. It fits our playstyle very well. The problem is attrition and recruiting. real life happens and some players left or have less time. But recruiting replacements runs into the hassles of POS and corp management. To let a new player have enough access to do much of anything gives him way too much access. So instead of our corp recruiting some new like minded players who we gradually give more access to our corp will soon pack up and move back to hisec.

CCP needs to fix POS and corp management to make all of wspace better and it will make a lot of null bears happy too.

Soundwave clarified that he doesnGÇÖt mind people being bothered by it, because no EVE player has the right to be shut off from the rest of the world. He sees bounty hunting as something thatGÇÖs impacting players playing EVE as a single player game in a way nothing they tried before, and was glad they were interacting with the community whether negatively or positively. He suspected most people complaining were annoyed because they were not used to being able to be GÇ£pokedGÇ¥ by other players.

Alek praised this statement: AMEN SOUNDWAVE!

For me, the best part was:




THAT shows me two things:
First is, that it is strange and hypocritical from Soundwave that he GÇ£doesn`t mind people being botheredGÇ¥ with this new bounty system. And on the other hand the whole CCP Team (GM; Dev; CCP and Volunteer etc.) is excluded from the new bounty system at once! DidnGÇÖt he said that no one GÇ£has the right to be shut off from the rest of the worldGÇ¥?

The second thing is, that Alekseyev Karrde does not know this and praises Soundwave as new messiah!

Grow up.

Retribution was releaesed over a month ago. If there was problem with people quitting over the bounty system they'd know by now.

Here's a hint, people aren't.
Except you and a couple others. So you're SoL guy.

The impression I got from the minutes was CCP haven't got a damn clue if anyone is quitting or not.
[...]
I've made three new accounts in the last month, but they're not going to make up for some of the people who have gone from my community; corp chat is dead in every player corp I'm in, and it's been consistently like that since two days after Retribution. Market trading has never been easier - for me a clear sign that less people are playing.

For me, the best part was:




THAT shows me two things:
First is, that it is strange and hypocritical from Soundwave that he GÇ£doesn`t mind people being botheredGÇ¥ with this new bounty system. And on the other hand the whole CCP Team (GM; Dev; CCP and Volunteer etc.) is excluded from the new bounty system at once! DidnGÇÖt he said that no one GÇ£has the right to be shut off from the rest of the worldGÇ¥?

The second thing is, that Alekseyev Karrde does not know this and praises Soundwave as new messiah!

And another thing:


Solomon.. you are wrong or just want to play down the problem. We all know that a bounty does not make a pilot a legal target. It is the bounty itself that is the problem!
As good guy you do not wish to have a bounty. Especially if you have good standings to CONCORD GÇô WHO has control of the bounty system (pool).
If you have never done some harm to another player NO ONE should be able to spend a bounty for nothing on his head!

...How does the bounty system affect your gaming experience?

What about the wis, you stuped bitches...

Hello Gelatine,

If you want to let CCP know how you are thinking about Retribution, try their survey via http://retribution.questionpro.com/
Please let them know what you like or dislike or what they should do better.
Thanks.

Additional: YOU are right! There was barely enough time between these two events for patch day for Retribution (04.12.2012) and the days for CSM 7 meeting (12.12.-14.12.2012) to give a valid statistik or funded and reliable statement, if you take the meeting minutes as resource.

NOTE: at least 40 petitions concerning the bounty mechanic within the first 8 days of Retribution.

You promised us POS revamps at the last fanfest and again at last CSM summit now all that has been pissed away because you feel we are not enough of a player base to spend the time on. We have long been patient on this issue this affects the whole WH community day to day as well as HS industry, LS research and industry and Nullsec living in the far reaches.

At the very least the pos security issues need to be addressed in the short term to make small corporations have viable safe options to recruit and grow, this only needs to be personal ship storage. In the Med term we deserve a well overhauled system to allow greater flexibility with modular POS design.

You say its business breaking to do POS revamp, we say its business breaking to ignore us yet again.

Take a look

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194625

Prototype Feedback Session
Present: CCP Veritas, CCP Bayesian
The CSM was given the opportunity to test several early prototypes of a possible revision of existing gameplay mechanics. The contents of this session are covered under NDA.

Two step expressed many player's desire to be able to build a ***** in space.

The CSM will also be doing another town hall meeting to talk about the minutes in the next few weeks or so.