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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Xel Set
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
9
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:17:00 -
[1801] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:
From page 19:
"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "
From page 99:
"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"
"Seagull: The reason there's a GÇ£noGÇ¥ to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."
Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE
I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.
I want to specify that my support is to having POSes being given a high priority, especially with the concept of docking in them like you would a station instead of the current, clunky iteration. It would be great if they included a "window" view, enabling you to use the same exterior view you get with them now (while yet remaining docked within a hangar). Beyond that, the problem of roles limitations is even more important, in general, and needs a better solution. To me, including steps towards these changes is something that should begin occurring with the next release. |
SerialTurd
Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:17:00 -
[1802] - Quote
I haven't used the new pos system with the blocks instead of individual fueling components but there was a time were I managed several poses for my corp/alliance and I remember it pretty much consumed almost all my time. I would have to check them daily to make sure they were topped off.
I had to constantly check jump bridges. Constantly check reactions.
Granted the above two aren't directly tied to poses it was still very tedious when it was all tied together. All in all it nearly burnt me out and there was a point I wanted to quit playing cause of it.
So yea, reform the system plz. |
Lan Staz
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:18:00 -
[1803] - Quote
+1 |
Eidric
Shadows of HyperSpace Wormhole Holders
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:19:00 -
[1804] - Quote
POSes need the love.
Edit: Why cant the next theme be the modularity? |
Stalker ofeveryone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:21:00 -
[1805] - Quote
We need more updates for NULLSEC, not JUST for the miners/mission runners in 1.0 space. |
Dawn Ramsey
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:22:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Thank you to CCP for watching this thread, and understanding that it affects more than a small portion of EVE player base.
+1 to revamping POSs when possible/practical. |
Jaiimez C
I N E X T R E M I S Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:23:00 -
[1807] - Quote
As an previous resident of W-Space and current resident of nullsec I most certainly feel that work on the current POS system is needed. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:23:00 -
[1808] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:
From page 19:
"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "
From page 99:
"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"
"Seagull: The reason there's a GÇ£noGÇ¥ to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."
Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE
I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.
|
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:24:00 -
[1809] - Quote
/signed in favor of asap POS work. |
Geldorf Drakar
Aperture Harmonics K162
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:25:00 -
[1810] - Quote
POS's since inception have been neglected, ignored, labor intensive, and actually discourage conflict (everybody hates shooting a POS, and would much rather blow someones nice ship up).
Fixes to POS related mechanics have happened, like adjustments to Moon Minerals, but are patchwork at best, and do not present a solution of any value.
The most significant thing to ever happen to POS's was the introduction of Freighters, and Jump freighters, which turned spending hours a day fueling and hauling between several POSs into a slightly less nightmare... and just lead to an increase in the number of POSs with subsequent increase in time spent doing logistics.
....FIX POSs!
Generate conflict, remove structure grind, make them less safe (especially in wormholes :P), reinvent the POS into the conflict drivers they should have been and add greater risk. |
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Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1050
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:26:00 -
[1811] - Quote
I'd be running a POS right now except that doing so means interacting with a huuuuuuuge disaster of an system.
Worse, if I understand it right, running a POS requires I drop my corp and join an alt corp -- or make an alt, which I refuse to do -- just to handle it, due to the way the permissions ball was dropped by CCP.
Blocking off POSes from casual players also blocks off the higher end tradeskill stuff, which basically shut down any interest I had in doing so, so... welp.
Of course, Nullsec's lack of an industrial base is a long known problem, which would require nerfing Highsec (even a straight buff to Nullsec would be a "nerf" to highsec) -- so we probably should just give up on this thread. CCP won't risk alarming the bleating masses. |
Silk75
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:26:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Please fix and preferably completely change POSes so they are not the pain in the ass they currently are, and are more in line with CCP Greyscale's vision.
1 man, 1 POS, more fun. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
2150
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:26:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Confirming that POS have very low impact on the general Eve population. What do the ice products mined in high-sec go toward again?
Adding POS functionality outside roles makes sense economically because it increases demand on ice products considerably.
How does this fit into the enablers/instigators mentality of development?
In short how can you say POS don't affect anyone when the very roles associated with them are prohibitive.
Please make game development decisions which add value. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
NilZad Berkina
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:29:00 -
[1814] - Quote
Adding this voice to the growing throng of users who look forward to the POS moving up the list of CCP's priorities.
Seriously. Did you really think that POS were that unimportant to such a small portion of the community.
I hope the sentiments expressed in this thread with clarity and almost singular purpose from a wide cross section of the community are heard and understood by those who can effect change.
I urge the CSM and all who have a mind to, to press this home, make CCP realise the depth of feeling and need for reworking player owned stations.
We understand it is complex, we do not expect it over night, we want CCP to do it right and make it awesome.
We hope we have demonstrated those of us who want POS revamped are not such a small portion of the comunity after all.
|
Kaylem Deng
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:30:00 -
[1815] - Quote
POS' are so difficult to manage and learn.
You shouldn't have that many 'quirks' in a system.
Please fix this as it affects more than just a small portion of players. Entirety of 0.0 are affected daily by POS'.
Please fix these boring things so we can continue to have our fun! Sometimes running a corp is like work, and CCP should try its best to make the experience more fun and less real life grind. We all have real lives to grind - we don't need to pay subscription to another.
Real Life: I play for free! |
Eliniale
co-operative resource extraction
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:30:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Stalker ofeveryone wrote:We need more updates for NULLSEC, not JUST for the miners/mission runners in 1.0 space.
Nullsec gets more attention than low, high and WH combined, so, uhm, zip it? System ideas: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=191928&find=unread |
Rayy Lee
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:31:00 -
[1817] - Quote
+1 Please fix POS! |
Falin Starwen
Ordo Mercuia
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:32:00 -
[1818] - Quote
Make POS easier to learn please!!!! |
MrTheGeoff
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:32:00 -
[1819] - Quote
CCP please fix POSes
Every nullsec alliance is dependent on these, not just for moon mining but for somewhere to park supercaps , somewhere to stage in hostile territory and a driver for conflict.
Every wormhole alliance is also dependent on these. Ever seen a station in W-Space? Neither have I.
Add those two blocs up and that's a significant portion of your player base that is inconvenienced by the problems with POSes.
1. POS guns are so pointless against anything that can actually threaten a POS that they are mostly dropped in favour of Ewar and/or resists. 2. POS fuelling is an exercise in masochism. 3. The corp roles required to allow someone to fuel and maintain a POS are far from intuitive 4. You can't set your POS up to allow your bestest buddy +10 allies to get inside the shields if they aren't in your alliance. Instead you're stuck typing in a password that handily deletes itself every session change. 5. You announced a POS revamp as a forthcoming feature last year. Going back on your promises is not good business practice if you want to build your reputation and not slide back into the line of thinking that led to the summer of rage.
Think about it. You've got 2 serious competitors on the horizon which both received a ton of crowdsourced funding from your current player base (Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous). If you want to keep your market share when you no longer have the monopoly on Internet Spaceships you need to start listening to your customers, and the CSM that represents us.
Just last week my corp had one of it's unsung heroes of POS management burn out and throw in the towel. That's one person who's money you're at risk of losing altogether purely because of how cumbersome it is to look after these annoying but necessary structures right now. |
Celly Smunt
Viziam Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:34:00 -
[1820] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Andski wrote:In two short years playing this game, I've done more with POS than I care to speak about. I've set up staging POS, tech mining POS, deathstars and dickstars, etc and the only thing I haven't done is set up a reaction farm, because it makes me want to gouge my eyes out. Believe me when I say that I don't do it out of enjoyment, because it isn't enjoyable, but simply because somebody needs to do it. Having to pan the camera around to move green boxes into place is miserable and that needs improvement. I can tolerate the two 30 minute timers for putting up a large tower, since I can just set a stopwatch, but having to place each little green box for each gun in place, fly up to each group of guns to shove ammo into them (hope you're using lasers with T1 crystals) prior to onlining is a bit ridiculous. You're talking about spending 2-3 hours on a single large tower setup.
And then there's the fact that POS guns don't pose a threat of any sort to supercaps, a few of which will defang a full deathstar POS in minutes. Then comes more fun: bringing in carriers WITH UNBONUSED HULL REPS to fix everything up and having to online everything once again. This man? He's one of those enablers a POS revamp would help, and by helping him, help the rest of us.
yes and aside from the LOW/NULL sec aspects of his post, I've been through and done everything he's said there with our POSes.
and it bites...
Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or be singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator. |
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Arduemont
Rotten Legion Ops THE ROYAL NAVY
1130
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:36:00 -
[1821] - Quote
Posting in support of POS update. Thank you Two Step for sticking up for what we, the players, want. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
Loris Fritz
Phoenix of the Black Sun Wrong Hole.
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:36:00 -
[1822] - Quote
I Live in a wormhole. I love living in W-space and nothing would ever get me out of it. It is truly a nomadic lifestyle, always on the edge. I never know what is around the corner each day and I face it head on with excitement! If W-space where to ever become unlivable, unplayable, becomes overly underpopulated, or is no longer fun, I would not hesitate to stop playing EVE, as W-space is why I play EVE. I don't say this to be rude, or mean. I say this because I may be a minority, but from my perspective it is everything to me.
I understand that certian comforts are forfit when living in W-space. Things like Lack of local chat, Stargates, Asteroid/ Ice belts, and stations. Extra work has to be put into living in W-space as well, such as Scanning, managing Bookmarks, and all the logistical nightmares for doing ANYTHING in w-space. This is an aspect of 'W-SPACE SPECIFIC GAMEPLAY.'
BUT, there are some 'BASIC GAMEPLAY ELEMENTS' that are missing, that no EVE player should ever go without, and sadly its us W-spacers that are missing out. To get an even and balanced game that everyone can enjoy wherever they decide to live, changes need to happen. The simple idea of repackaging ships/moduals and having a private area to store MY stuff (something found in basically EVERY MMO EVER). There are also conceptual problems with W-space such as the sole reason for W-space to exist is to create T3 cruisers, which we cant even assemble or use out of the box in the WH. That logically unsound. It is like being able to make a sandwich at home but NEVER being able to eat it at home.
The truly sad thing Is that at the recent CSM meeting, it was decided to stop the advancement of development that would fix these problems.
Give us a chance to play like the rest of EVE does. |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:38:00 -
[1823] - Quote
The obvious answer is to Make it relevant to a larger part of the player base. Let everyone deploy structures in space, not full scale POS's just little places people can call home. I don't care what gameplay you have to make up for this but if it means a POS redesign then that's all that matters. |
Ted McManfist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:40:00 -
[1824] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:The obvious answer is to Make it relevant to a larger part of the player base. Let everyone deploy structures in space, not full scale POS's just little places people can call home. I don't care what gameplay you have to make up for this but if it means a POS redesign then that's all that matters.
Agreed. Update POSes to MAKE them relevant to a larger group. |
Ammutseba Gangulur
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:43:00 -
[1825] - Quote
I feel really sorry for whoever has to crawl through this legacy code and update the POS system. Regardless of the mechanics they change or update the physical act of coding this will be utterly horrible and would totally earn the eternal love of anyone who plays EVE as this will even benefit people who just do high sec missions and never even warped to a moon. |
Tzeneth
Exiled Kings Enlightened Violence
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:43:00 -
[1826] - Quote
/signed
If you can fix a little of the PoS problem and then make modular PoS's I'd love you. If you do anything to make PoS's better, I'll love you :) |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
55
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:44:00 -
[1827] - Quote
CCP Gargant wrote:I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard. Respectfully, CCP Gargant, therein lies the problem. I certainly still have an enormous amount of respect for CCP and the job its Devs do every day, but if you're just writing to say "hold on guys, we hear you," but you can't actually comment on what's coming, then that doesn't really help us at all.
POSes are in a desperate state at the moment. And I think many people would agree--players and CCP--that something needs to be done to improve POS mechanics and, as a result, quality of life. Let me point out a few quotes of my own that I have found that give many of us posting here concern that "POSes had been shelved:"
Page 37 (after UAxDEATH brought up "broken promises" on a POS revamp):
"Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that GÇ£is what will kill the businessGÇ¥. (emphasis added)
Then back on Page 21:
"Unifex: We can't do everything in our long-term plan in the next 6 months. And when we actually do the prototyping and figure out how tough something is to actually do, our plans may change." (emphasis added)
Jumping ahead to Page 38:
"[F]rom a game design perspective, implementing changes to null-sec and the sov system in general would be easier than revamping the POS system. On top of that, Soundwave added, the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community."
It seems evident from the quotes above that CCP had, in fact, analyzed whether a POS revamp would be worth it but then decided that the developer cost-to-player benefit could not be justified due to POSes "affect[ing] a small portion of the community."
Certainly, we could look all over the EVE Universe and find points where problems exist, from high sec to low to null to wormhole space. And of course each player from those respective areas is going to want to lobby for their area being fixed. The thing about POSes, though, is that they affect players in all areas of the game, and this doesn't even speak of what POSes could do if given a proper once-over. They could make massive quality of life improvements, from refitting T3s in wormhole space to rethinking how refining and manufacturing fit in high sec space.
Granted there is merit in focusing developer talent and financial resources on individual areas, and there are many systems that need overhaul. But given the fact that POSes affect players in all areas, the answer seems obvious.
Whether its a new player or veteran, there's tremendous gameplay opportunity a POS revamp would afford. It could easily attract newer players to POSes if they weren't so daunting or hard to manage, and it would give veterans quality of life improvements that are long overdue.
I'm signing this thread, because I believe that our concerns weren't misplaced. And I feel that POSes are in need of change.
|
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
139
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:44:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Silvonus wrote:POS are some of the oldest code, and were never fully developed from the start. Most players understand this, we are not expecting miracles but we do want to see some concrete development happening. POS have been talked about for years as needing fixes, and while there are many areas of the game that also need improving, none is more glaring than POSs. The time is ripe for change.
The arm of POSs is far reaching, affecting nearly every area of the game in one form or another. This is what I feel CCP is worried about when potentially overhauling the entire system. POS affect nearly all of industry, life in null and w-space and corporation management. It is nearly impossible to separate POS from any of these (and more) systems. The risk that something would go wrong is high, even for the slightest of changes. Since the effects are wide, this also has the potential of being the most powerful fix/expansion ever especially if linked to systems like sovereignty, industry and CREST.
Here is what I see are the major areas of EVE that need to be developed:
POS and other player controlled structures Industry, production and group mining (ring) Nullsec sovereignty Corporation management Yes, there are more things, but those in my opinion are the largest ones bringing EVE into a GÇ£completeGÇ¥ state with no major areas lacking. Now, of those areas, industry is already tied significantly to POS, and while it does not need to be released at the same time as POS, having a new POS backbone to tie into would help it significantly. Nullsec sovereignty is a thorny path. It works currently but has a lot of room for improvement. A POS revamp has the potential not to just affect how we think of POS right now, that is a stick in the bubble, but rather extend onto other player owned and controlled structures, such as I-Hubs, stations, and whatever else we could imagine, which could be then tied into new sov mechanics and methods to maintain and control areas. Corporation mechanics are already so closely tied with POSs, that separating one form the other is hard to do and trying to fix one and not the other only prolongs the issue.
CCP, you want to have themed expansions? How about this for a theme: GÇ£Build your empire.GÇ¥
Task half the teams to work on Corporation management and UI, and the other half to POSs. Nothing draws players into game more than being able to claim a piece of land (or in this case, space). Not just something that has your name on it in the corner, but something that you as a player build. You gathered the resources, you teamed up with other players, you fought off those who would compete with you and you prevailed. And these aren't just vanity homes to display pictures, these are the workhorses and the backbone of your military might, your production chain to control the market, the bastion where you live.
CCP, we know you can pull this off. You pulled off a beautiful interface with planetary interaction in Tyrannis, you've delivered content in Apocrypha on an unprecedented scale, you've paid attention to the details in Crucible and Inferno, you've shown us that you can make a game like none other. The path to greatness isn't easy, but only those who dare the most difficult road reap the greatest rewards.
My exact thoughts put much more concise and politely. well done. |
Elderel
Sundown Logistics SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:44:00 -
[1829] - Quote
I'm far less interested in modular pos housing than I am in a corp management system that actually allows reasonable use of poses and pos modules without being a threat to corp production goals. Give us the ability to allow members to restrict delivery of other members jobs, restrict within a specific module who can access which tabs rather than the global garbage we currently have. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
2150
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 23:46:00 -
[1830] - Quote
How many people did they expect to want a monocole from the NEX?
That got plenty of dev time.
I thought greed was good, what's up with this?
More POS = More PLEX being sold.
When are you going to require bizdevs to actually play the game? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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