Or they can wait for their balls to descend fully before playing Eve

i have no interest in pvp (fighting pvp,market pvp is what im looking for) in eve yet i have more than 10 000 frags in wot over 4 months

am i carebear or not?

What the hell is "10 000 frags in wot"?

There should be a "balls have dropped" check upon paying for a subscription.

i have no interest in pvp (fighting pvp,market pvp is what im looking for) in eve yet i have more than 10 000 frags in wot over 4 months

am i carebear or not?

Calling something a Frag outside of UT is just sad....

How about an IQ test instead?

If that were the case we unfortunately wouldn't be graced with your presence.

I tossed a softball to see who would be the first lame-o to hit hit it.

Congrats. You are the lowest common denominator.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

- At the end of the tutorial, blowup the player's ship with some npc pirates
- Tell them this happens in EVE ...
- Show them how to replace it

Dealing with loss, along with social skills, is the most important lesson in EVE.

There should be a "balls have dropped" check upon paying for a subscription.

They do this already. They revamped the tutorials.

Its kind of funny listening to some of the posts here it sounds like some people are scared to give the bears combat options.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

All 16 year olds should have to get their driver's license in New York City or Boston.

It's true, all of it.

I was horribly traumatized by my first gank, now whenever someone targets me my mind just freezes up and i can only think "IT'S ALL HAPPENING AGAIN!". I run away from the keyboard and start rocking back and forth in the corner, only returning to the computer screen hours later when i gather the courage.

I'm going to let the carebears here in on a little secret.

PvPers get afraid during combat too.

The pain of loss, The humiliation of possibly being chastised for a shitfit, the fear of defeat in battle, and the ennui of just being able to witness your warped, webbed and scrambled ship circle the drain is something that happens to PvPers as well as carebears.

What is obvious is that some people don't like it, even if they do like combat missions. Is there some mechanic that would be fun for those players that would allow them to engage in ship PvP?
They like building things and planning skill tree's and ? How could those activities be applied to PvP?

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

Maybe if they were eased into it and trained they could get over that reflex, but it would take months or years to do.

It might be easier to give them a mechanic that they could prepare before combat, perhaps a castle building exercise of sorts. Let them hire NPC mercs in different types of ships and build a little npc fleet that they could preset some options for. So when they get attacked and freeze up the NPCGÇÖs will jump in and rep them and jam the attackers, giving the carebear a chance to warp out or perhaps even collect themselves enough to target the aggressor and actually shoot back.

Or maybe much longer locktimes across the board; the PvP community would adjust and it might allow the carebears time to react in a meaningful way. Or maybe just longer locktimes in highsec! Oh thatGÇÖs a great idea, it would push some PvPers into low and null, reduce suicide ganking, and maybe give care-bears a chance to do something besides stare dumbly at the screen and pray for CONCORD to show up.

Whatever the solution I think it needs to look at why some people donGÇÖt PvP.

I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

Thank you for that i lold good.

I to when i see tough video game manly mans and wannabes i just freeze from fear but lucky for me CCP know that and set auto target back to some number in atempt to push my carebare F1 skill to work...sometimes i fire back but mostly just die.

I think CCP should fly around and randomly gank people who have never been killed, just to show them that this game is made for PvPers for PvP purposes.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

How can we make you like mining?

People just like different things. A lot of people, like myself, are here simply because they like cruising around in space, and attacking other players isn't very appealing to us. I'm somewhat different than your average 'carebear' because i don't shy away from risk, but i'm starting to think i've given enough killmails to the PvP community.

Well, there's a TON of valid reasons why people don't PvP.

Like you said, some just "freeze up" due to the sheer novelty of it. Which is fine, and can be easily fixed by a "holodec" dueling system. .... my real life was MORE than stressful enough for me to add to it in my "entertainment" time......

Further, I would go as far as to say that general unwillingness to PvP in a videogame is actually more common than PvP-bloodlust. Perhaps even prevalent enough to be called "the norm". Do you know what the best-selling PC game of all time is? The Sims 2!...

There are solutions to some of these. And some of these are not even problems. If someone is careabering it up in high sec, that's their choice, and the game IS supposedly a sandbox and their choice is as valid as anyone else's.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

- At the end of the tutorial, blowup the player's ship with some npc pirates
- Tell them this happens in EVE ...
- Show them how to replace it

Dealing with loss, along with social skills, is the most important lesson in EVE.

(edit: apparently they do this now. Go CCP woo!)

Calling something a Frag outside of UT is just sad....

Well, there's a TON of valid reasons why people don't PvP.

Like you said, some just "freeze up" due to the sheer novelty of it. Which is fine, and can be easily fixed by a "holodec" dueling system. This is something I saw done in Pirates of the Burning Sea (2008 MMO), and it worked beautifully. Basically you take your ship and everything you normally would have. And you set up a fight with one or more people. Then you duke it out. But in the end, nothing is lost (or gained), it is considered a practice match. I believe there was "this is a dream" explanation for it? In EVE, it could be a "holographic training simulation". A few days/weeks of that, and you'd have competent pilots who don't freeze up any more, without hassle of re-shipping or third party interference while doing so.

Some people just CAN'T PvP physically. Their reaction to stress, even mild stress, is just too severe. Hands shaking badly, tunnel vision, inability to think, etc. Really no amount of training will help, it's just a severe physiological reaction. Which is why I get mad when people sneer at carebears. Just like some get seasick or are afraid of heights or have vertigo, some people just can't PvP and making fun of them is just rude.

And of course some simply choose not to. Call it pacifism or whatever. I myself spent a goodly amount of time carebearing it up in high-sec. Just spend a quiet evening semi-comatose, running L4s and chatting with folks in the Missions channel. It was simple, calm, relaxing and yet profitable enough to keep me plexed without taxing me physically or emotionally. At the time, my real life was MORE than stressful enough for me to add to it in my "entertainment" time.

Further, I would go as far as to say that general unwillingness to PvP in a videogame is actually more common than PvP-bloodlust. Perhaps even prevalent enough to be called "the norm". Do you know what the best-selling PC game of all time is? The Sims 2! A game that has no PvP in any way, shape or form, and very little stress. Think about that for a second. WoW had 13 million subs in its heyday, and that game had PvE servers where PvP did not exist unless you purposely flagged yourself. Meanwhile, games with non-consensual PvP like EVE, Ultima Online, Mortal Online, Darkfall, etc., at some point struggled to break 250k subs. If PvP is so good, why are games that are PvP-centric doing so poorly?

There are solutions to some of these. And some of these are not even problems. If someone is careabering it up in high sec, that's their choice, and the game IS supposedly a sandbox and their choice is as valid as anyone else's.

What the hell is "10 000 frags in wot"?

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

Maybe if they were eased into it and trained they could get over that reflex, but it would take months or years to do.

It might be easier to give them a mechanic that they could prepare before combat, perhaps a castle building exercise of sorts. Let them hire NPC mercs in different types of ships and build a little npc fleet that they could preset some options for. So when they get attacked and freeze up the NPCGÇÖs will jump in and rep them and jam the attackers, giving the carebear a chance to warp out or perhaps even collect themselves enough to target the aggressor and actually shoot back.

Or maybe much longer locktimes across the board; the PvP community would adjust and it might allow the carebears time to react in a meaningful way. Or maybe just longer locktimes in highsec! Oh thatGÇÖs a great idea, it would push some PvPers into low and null, reduce suicide ganking, and maybe give care-bears a chance to do something besides stare dumbly at the screen and pray for CONCORD to show up.

Whatever the solution I think it needs to look at why some people donGÇÖt PvP.

I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

Or they can wait for their balls to descend fully before playing Eve

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

Maybe if they were eased into it and trained they could get over that reflex, but it would take months or years to do.

It might be easier to give them a mechanic that they could prepare before combat, perhaps a castle building exercise of sorts. Let them hire NPC mercs in different types of ships and build a little npc fleet that they could preset some options for. So when they get attacked and freeze up the NPCGÇÖs will jump in and rep them and jam the attackers, giving the carebear a chance to warp out or perhaps even collect themselves enough to target the aggressor and actually shoot back.

Or maybe much longer locktimes across the board; the PvP community would adjust and it might allow the carebears time to react in a meaningful way. Or maybe just longer locktimes in highsec! Oh thatGÇÖs a great idea, it would push some PvPers into low and null, reduce suicide ganking, and maybe give care-bears a chance to do something besides stare dumbly at the screen and pray for CONCORD to show up.

Whatever the solution I think it needs to look at why some people donGÇÖt PvP.

I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically canGÇÖt do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

Maybe if they were eased into it and trained they could get over that reflex, but it would take months or years to do.

It might be easier to give them a mechanic that they could prepare before combat, perhaps a castle building exercise of sorts. Let them hire NPC mercs in different types of ships and build a little npc fleet that they could preset some options for. So when they get attacked and freeze up the NPCGÇÖs will jump in and rep them and jam the attackers, giving the carebear a chance to warp out or perhaps even collect themselves enough to target the aggressor and actually shoot back.

Or maybe much longer locktimes across the board; the PvP community would adjust and it might allow the carebears time to react in a meaningful way. Or maybe just longer locktimes in highsec! Oh thatGÇÖs a great idea, it would push some PvPers into low and null, reduce suicide ganking, and maybe give care-bears a chance to do something besides stare dumbly at the screen and pray for CONCORD to show up.

Whatever the solution I think it needs to look at why some people donGÇÖt PvP.

I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

Calling something a Frag outside of UT is just sad....

There is a way that these people can get over their inhabitions? There is somthing called the test server where people can go and just shoot stuf. with it costing 100isk for everything. Why are people unable to make full use of the tools that CCP provide us with!?

/Princess

I dont agree with you, meny people got big balz in RL some of them got dangerus jobs, sex, family etc, but for some reason they avoid pvp maybe because they afraid to lose isk or somthig like this, while other nerds who focus on pvp feels like bad as because they pvp in online game, why you generalize everyone.

Sory for this brutal example but deal with it, being wannable bad as in game dosent make you mature brave man.

Cause' it feels "fake". Eve is real, Sisi(or whatever its called now) is not :P

7. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.

I think CCP should fly around and randomly gank people who have never been killed, just to show them that this game is made for PvPers for PvP purposes.

From my perspective,

I seriously dislike PvP. Not because I can't, mind you, but because I just hate the idea as a whole. This, of course, has led me to be less experienced than most of the PvPers out there. I don't have, as you call it, the training to perform as well as the others.

Now, it wouldn't take years to gain a decent skill in PvP, but perhaps a couple months.

As far as "Getting over that reflex", a week.

From,
A carebear

I'm going to let the carebears here in on a little secret.

PvPers get afraid during combat too.

It's true, all of it.

I was horribly traumatized by my first gank, now whenever someone targets me my mind just freezes up and i can only think "IT'S ALL HAPPENING AGAIN!". I run away from the keyboard and start rocking back and forth in the corner, only returning to the computer screen hours later when i gather the courage.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because combat is just not something they want to participate in.

Could there be more options for destroying things in Eve? Some non-dogfight in game mechanic that allows ISK to be blown up? Maybe something that bear style players would enjoy doing.

Like building viral POS's that destroy random combat modules on any ship that is in their system. Or being able to produce faulty modules and sell them on the open market (at a loss of course). Or self destruct ships that are like mega smart bombs!


I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

A game that elicits the kind of physical reaction that I have felt in Eve is a very rare thing. It is perhaps CCP's greatest achievement, and perhaps one of the most important dynamics ever developed re computer simulations.

This feeling must be respected and encouraged and fostered by the player base.

there's no difference between pvp and mining
both is just a series of actions carried out on a computer screen

This is the most pointless and demonstrably untrue statement that I have ever seen with a name next to it.

its only untrue in your mind

Total? Body alone is 100 millilon.
Implants 500+ million depending the location and markets.

None the less its not alot for some active players, but with college and the sorts I have been rather busy and focused on school and only have time to mess around with PI and small scale manufacutring, 600 million takes a while boding my time ensuring that my investments are not collaspable.

However every so often I do roll an alt for the sole purpose of retribution as well as getting others intersesting in pvp and they have a far more impressive kill records. Biggest kill so far was an officer fit megathron a few years back.

its only untrue in your mind

You are not some kind of monk who has been contemplating life in a cave for decades. By your "logic" doing my taxes, watching ****, playing eve, and writing reports for work are all the same. They are not. They don't have the same results either in my mind or in RL.
So you go smoke some more blue moss or whatever, but don't expect a lot of encouragement for your self obsessed drivel.

/Nova Fox points at cost of his clone*

The reason why I do not ever pvp anymore is that the rate I incurr Isk. To replace my clone would take me a year or so of work.

Posting in another carebear hate thread.

Increasing my post ratting is good !!

There's a dueling option on the way. You can jump into low-sec to "get your feet wet". Pick up a suspect flag and see who bites (not recommended in hubs). Wardec someone. Find the nearest wormhole and camp it on the inside, or see who lives there and get into a fight. Save up some space-cash and do some RvB.

There are tons of PvP options out there. People who don't take them don't because they're afraid. Of what, i couldn't tell you.

I think the cheapest JC I have now is 120 million isk with the hardwires in his head and hes not the combat orintated guy ><.

i can tell you lol. The number 1 barrier to people PVPing is fear of losing. Some people can't handle losing AT ALL and will do anything to avoid it, whether it's hiding in high sec behind CONCORDS skirt or never undocking in null sec unless they have a 250 man fleet with them.

I've noticed this in every game I played. I once asked this question on another game forum:

Which of these 2 scenarios would you enjoy most often??

Option A: You have a match between 2 teams and your team is WAY better or bigger than the other and you mop the floor with your opponents after a very short period of time.

Or

Option B: You have a match between 2 fairly evenly matched sides the game has a lot of back and forth, lots of manuvering, seems to last for ever and at the end of it You and your Team lose.

I'm obviously an Option B guy in a game (option A in real life where you don't get to respawn :) ), but the VAST majority of people who responded to me were Option A people.

I'd rather have fun in a close contest and lose than win every single time by a landslide, but then again, my ego and self worth aren't tied to "winning". Of course the most fun for me would be a close game where my side won lol, but I enjoy the FIGHT, not just the outcome. That's why when I was a Gallente Faction Warfare FC i told people who joined my fleets "I don't DO subtle, we're going to jump straight into the Teeth of the Squids (Caldari) and kill them or die trying". That's my idea of a game.

But most people want to "win" and be the hero and be in a game what they can't be in real life (a hero who gets all the girls). Nothing anyone ever does is going to encourage people like that to risk defeat and thus the bursting of their own mental bubbles.

But that is all down to your choice of implants. It has nothing to do with basic clone costs.

I think you have been buying the wrong clone grade mate... You only need Upsilon (45 mil) with your sp

But we digress.

Eve Board says you have at most 120-odd million isk. Clones for you cost 45 million isk. You are going to tell me that you can't do that in an hour or two?

No it's a fact. Clicking a button to active your mining lasers is infinitely different than competing with a human being.

...
wtf? u just gotta follow orders, what is hard about that, let alone PHYSICALLY UNABLE for a person to do
what the hell
come on, really

What are you, young 20's, healthy american male from a middle class background, most significant risk exposure driving? World is your oyster kid.

There are however physical limitations, some of those are caused by chemical interactions in the brain. Not all gamers have the same limitations or options that you do.

That is no reason for the game to disinclude options that may work for some people but not for others.

That statement is a bit of a mandala, please accept it with my compliments.

no actually the only accurate thing there is male
i mean, if you want to do this personal thing then here, i am poor as **** and have something called menieres disease so know what PHYSICALLY UNABLE to do things means
what is going on here is people who just dont LIKE something are (yet again) using an excuse, rather than just coming out and say "i dont care for it"

What is going on here is that we are talking about options that will allow people to interact in game with one another. The bears have very clearly stated that "they don't care for PvP" they are not making excuses.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss options for bears to strike back at PvPers without engaging in hot seat PvP.

It does not in any way lessen the significance of your own situation to provide consideration for the limitations of others. Your own experiences seem to create a significant self bias towards the subject. Your arguments are really all to do with yourself and not applicable to this thread.

You can PM me an apology if you want.

I think PVP in EVE is extremely over-rated. I am in a PVP crew now and sure there are some fun spots and it is more exciting compared to other MMO's, but frankly I'm starting to see it as more of a pain than anything. I'm just not seeing any return on the massive time investment. EVE PVP isn't terrible, just highly over-rated. I feel like the opportunity cost just to get into some action isn't worth it. I'm not making any money playing grabass trying to chase down a fleeing war target (who started the war, sigh.) It does crack me up when players start chest beating and acting like they are getting the adrenaline rush that you would get skydiving, rappelling from a helo or flying in on a helicopter air assault that had 3 times as many choppers as the apocalypse now village scene; yes I have done all those things. So stop stroking your virtual epeen studs and acting like carebears are crying children because they don't want to wander null for hours on end gate jumping Zzzzz, I've found more currently military and ex military "carebearing" than I have 'leet PVPers."

I'd rather have fun in a close contest and lose than win every single time by a landslide, but then again, my ego and self worth aren't tied to "winning". Of course the most fun for me would be a close game where my side won lol, but I enjoy the FIGHT, not just the outcome. That's why when I was a Gallente Faction Warfare FC i told people who joined my fleets "I don't DO subtle, we're going to jump straight into the Teeth of the Squids (Caldari) and kill them or die trying". That's my idea of a game.

There are many things that can disable a carebear's PVP ability. Stressful job. Eight hours of pre-existing computer monitor eye strain from work. Long commute. Kid maintenance. Pet maintenance. House maintenance. Bills. Cialis side effects.* Any of those can make a carebear not want to do anything more intensive that clicking on NPC red crosses, manufacturing jobs, sell orders or mining laser icons.

Couldn't agree more. I think, for me, I really started to enjoy PvP (not just try to get into fights) when I started believing I was terrible at EVE. I knew I was going to lose so the wins were cherished and the losses simply accepted.

I don't do PvP often, even though I'm in nullsec, mainly because I either don't have the forsight to buy a few PvP ships, or I'm too poor when it happens to buy any.

Or being able to produce faulty modules and sell them on the open market (at a loss of course). Or self destruct ships that are like mega smart bombs!

I checked your evekill history. You average 1 kill a month & you live in nullsec.
Unless you have a 2nd account that pvps, i would definately concider you a carebear.

Hell even I concider myself to be a bit of a carebare because if there is no scheduled op, im out making iskes.

A game that elicits the kind of physical reaction that I have felt in Eve is a very rare thing. It is perhaps CCP's greatest achievement, and perhaps one of the most important dynamics ever developed re computer simulations.

This feeling must be respected and encouraged and fostered by the player base.

Perhaps I'm wrong about bears and their frozen fingers locked around the keyboard, good.

What is obvious is that some people don't like it, even if they do like combat missions. Is there some mechanic that would be fun for those players that would allow them to engage in ship PvP?
They like building things and planning skill tree's and ? How could those activities be applied to PvP?

Amen. How would you feel about big ugly rats created by some mad industrialist and sent to destroy you on occasion.

I have looked into this issue for a good long time. What the PvP combat adverse players are afraid of is stress. A confrontational interaction with another person is what causes the physical reaction you mention. For some that gives them The Rush, and is desirable. For others its just a pile of stress that leaves them feeling drained and even sick, and is to be avoided.

Why do such players even play eve? Because its the best space MMO on the market, and with a little care the stressful situations can be avoided the majority of the time. Do you know a better space MMO for such players?

Massively: How integral is PvP play to Star Trek Online as a whole?

Jack Emmert: All of our PvP is optional and consensual.

Adding new ways for there to be confrontational interaction will not change the issue. The stress adverse player will avoid them too. But what if we dropped down from "confrontational" to "competitive" interaction. Examples in game are the market and high sec exploration (whoever finds it first and does it fast gets the reward).

An example: Solar systems that can be claimed by an alliance via doing more industry and NPC killing there than any other alliance. I'm not sure how to really do this as a war dec would escalate the competition for system ownership to being confrontational, but its a thought.

Sound on par with AFK mining, people wanting to play the game without actually playing.

A person who doesn't not like Stress and Confrontation (and loss, remember EVEs harsh death penalty) choosing to play EVE online is like choosing swimming as a hobby when you are allergic to Chlorine. No amount of rationalizing will make one such as that NOT allergic to chlorine.

An example: Solar systems that can be claimed by an alliance via doing more industry and NPC killing there than any other alliance. I'm not sure how to really do this as a war dec would escalate the competition for system ownership to being confrontational, but its a thought.

I have looked into this issue for a good long time. What the PvP combat adverse players are afraid of is stress. A confrontational interaction with another person is what causes the physical reaction you mention. For some that gives them The Rush, and is desirable. For others its just a pile of stress that leaves them feeling drained and even sick, and is to be avoided. Why do such players even play eve? Because its the best space MMO on the market, and with a little care the stressful situations can be avoided the majority of the time. Do you know a better space MMO for such players? Adding new ways for there to be confrontational interaction will not change the issue. The stress adverse player will avoid them too. But what if we dropped down from "confrontational" to "competitive" interaction. Examples in game are the market and high sec exploration (whoever finds it first and does it fast gets the reward). An example: Solar systems that can be claimed by an alliance via doing more industry and NPC killing there than any other alliance. I'm not sure how to really do this as a war dec would escalate the competition for system ownership to being confrontational, but its a thought.

I think it's just the long grind to get stuff that does it, and then, you just get the stuff blown up.



The main problem with PVP is that it's rife with what I call "stupid ship loss". In order to be able to absorb it, you have to grind the ISK or materials to get more ships - to lose. Now this might be the name of the game for a lot of people, but a large portion of the player base gets so caught up in acquiring the funds and materials for PVP that they become wound up in that as the goal and then become reluctant for it all to go up in pixel smoke.

Imagine that you are going to enter a car into a demolition derby. For those of you who don't know, a demolition derby is a kind of race or competition whereby you wreck cars.

If you can get a car for free, or for say 100 bucks, throw some numbers on it, and then go destroy it, it's no big deal.

Now imagine that you have to work a second job for several months to pay say $3000 dollars for a car to enter in the demolition derby.

Imagine that in order to survive more than two seconds in the event, you have to put in an expensive roll cage, a high performance engine, etc. Imagine you have to go through the trouble of assembling these yourself.


How willing will you be to destroy this car?


The trouble with EvE PVP is that it's a demolition derby of sorts, but you have to grind PVe (very boring PVe if not mining rocks) to get the stuff.


What's the solution? The solution is either to find some means of making ships more available, such as free rookie ships with more combat capability (or perhaps a different kind of combat-ready rookie ship for militia members in FW) with less grind, or change the nature of PVP such that combat vessels get the same kind of support and logistics that a RL warship gets. Even tanks don't just go afield without infantry support. EvE PVP is gate camps and "Primary-F1" blobbageddons and that comprises for the most part an anti-climactic outcome.

And yet they are here, they stay. Maybe they are not opposed to risk and stress, rather they just can't pilot ships in combat situations for whatever reason.
The goons are always saying that the health of the Eve economy is based on destruction, relies on it.
What options exist to destroy the ISK of your enemies outside of direct combat? Something that the bears could participate in.

I think it's just the long grind to get stuff that does it, and then, you just get the stuff blown up.



The main problem with PVP is that it's rife with what I call "stupid ship loss". In order to be able to absorb it, you have to grind the ISK or materials to get more ships - to lose. Now this might be the name of the game for a lot of people, but a large portion of the player base gets so caught up in acquiring the funds and materials for PVP that they become wound up in that as the goal and then become reluctant for it all to go up in pixel smoke.

Imagine that you are going to enter a car into a demolition derby. For those of you who don't know, a demolition derby is a kind of race or competition whereby you wreck cars.

If you can get a car for free, or for say 100 bucks, throw some numbers on it, and then go destroy it, it's no big deal.

Now imagine that you have to work a second job for several months to pay say $3000 dollars for a car to enter in the demolition derby.

Imagine that in order to survive more than two seconds in the event, you have to put in an expensive roll cage, a high performance engine, etc. Imagine you have to go through the trouble of assembling these yourself.


How willing will you be to destroy this car?

The trouble with EvE PVP is that it's a demolition derby of sorts, but you have to grind PVe (very boring PVe if not mining rocks) to get the stuff.


What's the solution? The solution is either to find some means of making ships more available, such as free rookie ships with more combat capability (or perhaps a different kind of combat-ready rookie ship for militia members in FW) with less grind, or change the nature of PVP such that combat vessels get the same kind of support and logistics that a RL warship gets. Even tanks don't just go afield without infantry support. EvE PVP is gate camps and "Primary-F1" blobbageddons and that comprises for the most part an anti-climactic outcome.

And yet they are here, they stay. Maybe they are not opposed to risk and stress, rather they just can't pilot ships in combat situations for whatever reason.

The goons are always saying that the health of the Eve economy is based on destruction, relies on it.
What options exist to destroy the ISK of your enemies outside of direct combat? Something that the bears could participate in.

I think CCP should fly around and randomly gank people who have never been killed, just to show them that this game is made for PvPers for PvP purposes.

Tbh, EVE have no pvp...

Tbh,blablablablablablablaballalbnalabhalahaanalabaabalanbaljabkla is like a flush in the toilet. No offense pls.

Wrong, wrong, wrong...it may have been the intention for EVE to be a pvp game, but that's not what it has become. The simple massive majority of players who stay in hi-sec and don't pvp are testament to that. Get used to it my friend, you're the minority in our game now.

And please don't bring up the usual 'market trading is pvp' argument - that's competition, not pvp

Wrong, wrong, wrong...it may have been the intention for EVE to be a pvp game, but that's not what it has become. The simple massive majority of players who stay in hi-sec and don't pvp are testament to that. Get used to it my friend, you're the minority in our game now.

And please don't bring up the usual 'market trading is pvp' argument - that's competition, not pvp

I think it's just the long grind to get stuff that does it, and then, you just get the stuff blown up.

It's not this complicated. Losing a ship isn't fun for some people. I've lost plenty, including sacrificial lambs built for the purpose of being lost.

It huwts every time.

...end transmission...

Did you actually say something there?

I simply think that it's good for a pvp game to require some effort and thought before being successful at an activity. Making things easier for people who don't or can't overcome simple problems (the simple problems all of us who pvp have already figured out) is not a good move. It's like saying "Chess is too hard" and letting people use Checkers rules instead.

Star Trek Online.

We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldnGÇÖt necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take, as long as you are willing to live up with the consequences of your actions.

The problem with carebears is that they care too much about isk. Any risk of loosing isk is tooo big. They prefer blob warefare as it gives them little bit of a rush vs minimal risk. It is ether greed or shortsightingness that is troubeling them. The reson to blob is also the biggest reson that carebears jump ship in corporations and alliances when they dont have advantage in fleeting. This is why 'carebear' alliances implode damn quick... ppl just bail when it is easier and better (read cheaper) for themselves. Their isk and their wallets are more important. As a vet 0.0 recruiter for several years i strongy advice to not mass recruit bears if ppl want to build a solid corp. ;)

as a newish player and professional carebear i don't PVP for a simple reason, i literally can't afford to PVP, its not "I WANT MORE ISKS, NOT RISKS" its the fact that i don't have the massive cash flow to support any sort of PVP, i could fit a T1 frigate but even that i can't afford to buy right now

You know how the physical response of PVP is often described, in a rather dramatic way by those getting it for the first time.

To say someone is not able to handle it physically - not sure.

[quote=Mister S Burke] Which, as I think you are kind of an asshat, I dont really care to watch.

There is no problem with bears. They play the game their way, nothing problematic about that.

I went down to Delve last summer to watch some of that mess. The Test fleets were 2 and 5 hundred guys, the locals mustered a handful here and there. Are you saying that Test is a carebear corp? And that blob warfare is not a valid tactic?

I'm sorry that this post had to be 4 lines long. You can read it twice if that will help.

I love watching blobs.

I don't quite understand your post. But I miss the old portraits, good sig. TY for that.

Im not sure I understand. Are you saying that in terms of game play in an open sandbox where I can explore, mine, build, market, and do PvE, STO is better than eve? Also as to what type of game Eve is, remember this

I bloded the important parts of your own post. You said Space MMO, You said nothing about sandboxes and whatnot.

And We are talking about PVP. And you mistake ytter's post, as nothing about it says that which we are discussing, which is people who somehow don't like stress and confrontation in a game that is ALL about stress and confrontation in the form of EVE non-consensual pvp EVERYWHERE (even in high sec, only difference is your ship dies after you shoot someone in high sec without a war dec or some kind of engagement) and harsh death penalty.

If all a person wants is space ships and exploration/whatever and can't deal with stress , loss and confrontation, then frankly their decision to play EVE Online is stupid. That doesn't mean everyone should be a pvp'er, it means that they should accept the consequence of their choice to play a game like this.

That or get out.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because combat is just not something they want to participate in.

Could there be more options for destroying things in Eve? Some non-dogfight in game mechanic that allows ISK to be blown up? Maybe something that bear style players would enjoy doing.

Like building viral POS's that destroy random combat modules on any ship that is in their system. Or being able to produce faulty modules and sell them on the open market (at a loss of course). Or self destruct ships that are like mega smart bombs!


I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

You can't leave...

Arenas

Deadspace coordinates in every system with a Concord station.

1v1 tech I
1v1 tech II
2v2
7v7...

frigs, crusiers...

...teams with a ship point allocation like in the tournaments.

i have no interest in pvp (fighting pvp,market pvp is what im looking for) in eve yet i have more than 10 000 frags in wot over 4 months

am i carebear or not?

Real Criminal Flags

No two ways about it - In Cincinnati in 2013 if you shoot and kill a criminal, no matter how awful that person may be, you will become a criminal as well and will have to pay the price. But this aint 2013 and it aint Cincinnati. Anyone -5.0 in hi-sec should be an open target. Period. Let the carebears shoot the cookies out of them. They might end up liking it and venture out into lo-sec looking for fun.


Turret Hot Swaps

Sure, it's another skill or set of skills. And some of them have to be at lvl V. But man, does it come in handy to be able to remove those strip miners and mount a couple of 750mm guns and a neut that happen to be in your cargo bay next to your mining crystals. And all from the comfort of space. Who cares that you lost 20 crew members when you started firing the guns.

I'm mentally disturbed myself from overexposure. Can barely make phone calls anymore. If you figure out a solution pleas let me know.

You seem to confuse can't and wont. They can, they just choose not to. Drastically altering game mechanics for players who already choose not to participate is bad design.

IGÇÖve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they canGÇÖt PvP. Not because they donGÇÖt want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because combat is just not something they want to participate in.

Could there be more options for destroying things in Eve? Some non-dogfight in game mechanic that allows ISK to be blown up? Maybe something that bear style players would enjoy doing.

Like building viral POS's that destroy random combat modules on any ship that is in their system. Or being able to produce faulty modules and sell them on the open market (at a loss of course). Or self destruct ships that are like mega smart bombs!


I don't mind being wrong here, just a thought I had that I can't seem to shake. Any feedback is appreciated.

They could make isk and hire other players to do their dirty work. No need for more coding.

Industry won't survive without PVP and PVP won't survive without industry. Simple fact. I don't get why people get hung up on what someone else does in a space game. The people who mine and build and stuff like that are the same people who may prefer a city builder or simulator above a shooter or RTS. More into organizing than blowing things up.

So how about we just respect each others choices and realize that one can not exist without the other. People tend to forget a lot around here.

This experience is often referred to as "the shakes" in EVE and is just your regular high adrenaline fight-or-flight response which is not very well suited to computer games (evolution didn't select for the ability to calmly sit in a chair keeping track of half a dozen different mini-tasks while watching transversal and module heat closely when in a life-threatening situation).....
.

Players would participate if they had some options for doing so. IDK why I even respond to you here. Eve will continue to evolve and change, some of those changes will be hard on you.

Fight-flight or freeze are the usual adrenaline inspired options. Predator/girlfriend's angry husband upwind might not smell you, but motion-detecting eyes will see you the second you run. Your choice is largely determined by your body chemistry and neural wiring, both handed down by your ancestors. As an added layer of complexity, the astoundingly huge network of neurons in your brain has the ability to occasionally allow anomalous wave forms of electrical activity to affect your choices, overriding instinct.
That's what gives us the awesome ability to be stupid, to try things never tried before, to try things we just tried and got burned by. Ants never do anything stupid, their nests do not fail due to corruption or internal chaos. Cockroaches are relentlessly stupid, which serves them well. A cockroach faced with a maze that shocks it at dead-ends will get shocked at the same place a few times. Remove the same roach's head and it's problem solving intelligence actually increases as nerve bundles allow the body to navigate away from pain stimuli. It will pick one wall and find it's way through, usually.


I've known a few pilots who freeze when attacked. In a computer game! I had to know them a while before they would tell me, I always tried to be understanding without being condescending or pitying.

TLDR version for livestock: some people are physically and mentally incapable of combat, and still not cowards.

They have all the options we do.

]

That's not all the options that should exist in a sandbox. Lets open the doors a bit and see just how far the sandbox goes.

And what options do we lack exactly that stops these people?

It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.

POS's that cause expensive modules to blow up, the ability to manufacture modules that may self destruct when used in combat, The ability to hire NPC mercs, sovereignty that denies enemies certain ships or skill sets, mines, kamikaze ships.

The type of combat that the bears will enjoy is denied to them in Eve. It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.

you mean, like the new bounty system?
sellable kill rights?
etc

Make some systems where a cyno can only support ships under a certain limit, watch alliances **** bricks now that there are places immune to their tactics

No...I don't know what else to say. Just "No" that's not at all what I mean. Those systems just funnel isk back to the enemy. There should be some options that allow bears to kill and destroy and attack the PvPers.

There should be some options that allow bears to kill and destroy and attack the PvPers.

POS will not only blow up expensive modules but also the ship around them

The point in such a module is?

NPC mercs will never happen. However you can hire player mercs in several different ways.

That sov idea is bad and you should feel bad and will never happen because it will fix nothing and break a great many things.

We used to have mines but they caused game breaking problems and were removed.

Kamikaze ships already exist.

Eve's lifeline depends on those two aspects working in conjunction and balanced in distribution. Problem is, while people whose doing PVP can do industry or say in a hypothetical scenario where all the carebears (people whom refuses to do anything related to PVP in any way) are gone from Eve, they will do them in the carebears place and actually, many PVPers right now are doing that exact thing (both shooting at each other with one char and doing pve/industry stuff with another). What about the other way around? if say all PVPers are gone from Eve, would the carebears step up and keep the balance between production and destruction/supply and demand? right, they won't, they will just quit the game for the simple fact that they already determined to not doing PVP in the first place and just waiting for the inevitable economic collapse.

Actual industrialists would develop options to attack their opponents.

As an industialist I can safely say we have all the options that everyone else has when it comes to fighting. If you chose to ignore these options then you have only yourself to blame for your lack of options.

You are not an industrialist. Your a Goon and one of Bat Country and you gank freighters.

You now want everyone else believe that when you talk of "we" that you are now a carebear?

You are here only to cause drama. What's new about that?

This is the most pointless and demonstrably untrue statement that I have ever seen with a name next to it.

You are not an industrialist. Your a Goon and one of Bat Country and you gank freighters.

You now want everyone else believe that when you talk of "we" that you are now a carebear?

You are here only to cause drama. What's new about that?

I own a POS dedicated to building ships and POS fuel that I sell in high sec. Every day I manage my industrial affairs.

Just because I am a goon and go around killing fools with too much isk doesn't mean I cant enjoy insdustial activities. Infact I am trying to get in contact with battleclinic because their manufacturing tool needs updating.

And you also go into orphanages every weekend where you tell the kids your stories?

I see my activities have sent you into a downward spiral of "does not compute". I better not tell you that most of us Bats have industrial interests because it might just melt your mind.

I see my activities have sent you into a downward spiral of "does not compute". I better not tell you that most of us Bats have industrial interests because it might just melt your mind.

I see my activities have sent you into a downward spiral of "does not compute". I better not tell you that most of us Bats have industrial interests because it might just melt your mind.

You are here only to cause drama. What's new about that?

Whitehound has evidently trained Psychological Projection V.

Just like baltec1 do you post only to crap this thread into inexistence, unless someone like me comes along and points it out to you. You have similar inabilities like everyone else. It makes us individuals as well as somehow equal. Accept it, embrace it and become someone greater, or don't and be sad and bitter. That's the choice you have.

Given that my posts mostly have facts in them and yours all have insults Id say that you were the one sending this topic to the pile.

I actually agree with you in that carebears and PVPers depend on each other. Where I disagree with you is in that if all carebears left PVPers would simply fill in the void and Eve would be just fine. This may be true at first. But, if those that seek to PVP are now having to spend more time carebearing it up they will tire and wear out rather quickly. In other words, if you're primary enjoyment is PVP and you're now having to spend 80% of your time doing industry to support your PVP habit you won't last very long either. The harcore PVPers will probably be the first ones to go if they are having to spend more time doing activities they simply don't enjoy.

As a side note (this may not apply to you), but I find it amusing that the "hardcore elite" PVPers who criticize carebears for engaging in "insanely boring" activities are usually the ones to claim they will fill the void if industrialists and carebears were to dissappear from the game.

WOT doesn't count

Given that my posts mostly have facts in them and yours all have insults Id say that you were the one sending this topic to the pile.