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Missile and Mission Nerf Petition

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DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:21:00 - [1] Please Only sign this if you support it. If you don't then just don't reply! This is constructive. I want to let ccp know how many people do not like the nerf to the entent it has been enforced. I for one want to see the nerf reduced....
marshal123	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:23:00 - [2] I too want the nerf reduced. signed.
KDS Kytarh	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:24:00 - [3] Agreed!
Calruthian	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:26:00 - [4] Edited by: Calruthian on 06/07/2005 18:26:41 I agree. I spent my whole eve life training up nothing missle skills and now instead of being able to get up to the 14th teir in deadspace alone......now I can hardly clear the 10th. I for one am about to quit playing its like im a noob again.
Imran	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Calruthian Edited by: Calruthian on 06/07/2005 18:26:41 I agree. I spent my whole eve life training up nothing missle skills and now instead of being able to get up to the 14th teir in deadspace alone......now I can hardly clear the 10th. I for one am about to quit playing its like im a noob again. wts tissue.
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:29:00 - [6] If you read the bug blog, it's apparent that there are some minor issues with the missile nerf/buff that need to be corrected. From the look of it, the signature radius/damage calculation is screwed. Good to see missions take in the arse though. Newbies in Ravens no more! "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:29:00 - [7] I think missiles should be nerfed even more. As there is only 1 non alt in this thread (and alts opinions dont count), and my vote cancels out the 1st guy, this thread now has no supporters.
Sykosys	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:31:00 - [8] Signed Nerf missles and lvl 4 missions even more. That is what the topic says right?? And how is it unconstructive if we disagree with the original poster?? SYKOSYS _______________________ "She'll fly apart sir," "FLY HER APART THEN!!!"
Zarks	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:31:00 - [9] It¦s not a nerf you idiots, when you realize that maybe you will go on with your lifes.
ParMizaN	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:32:00 - [10] Just because we disagree does not mean we are flaming: i disagre with this: the fact that some guy could actually solo so much of a complex in a raven showed how overpowered it was. Keep the changes. ------------------ Run and fall or stand in line, in the end what's your's is mine
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:33:00 - [11] I think missiles are too strong, TBH. Once people are getting a few million SP in missiles, they are gonna be extremely powerful. The only people who dont like the changes are lvl 4 mission runners, and if ravens hadnt been so idiotically easy to train for and fly (like every other BS), then we wouldnt be here at all. This is simply the solution to a problem thats 2 years old.
marshal123	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:33:00 - [12] Edited by: marshal123 on 06/07/2005 18:35:44 you were asked to sign it if you agreed you fools go start your own thread, how can he get an acurate picture with the same people flaming every thread. this is for people who agree so if not start one for people that dont and i wont flame yours you arrogant fools.
Sirkill	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:36:00 - [13] Originally by: marshal123 you were asked to sign it if you agreed you fools go start your own thread If you dont want discussion dont post on a discussion forum
DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:37:00 - [14] Originally by: marshal123 Edited by: marshal123 on 06/07/2005 18:35:44 you were asked to sign it if you agreed you fools go start your own thread, how can he get an acurate picture with the same people flaming every thread. this is for people who agree so if not start one for people that dont and i wont flame yours you arrogant fools. Agreed, some fools just cannot help themselves.
Sykosys	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:42:00 - [15] I am all for it and do not support your idea simply because missles were skills that only required lvl 4 in 4-5 diffrent skills and were 10 times better than turrets which need lvl 5 in about 10 skills to be effective. And a player that flies a BS after 1 month and thinks they can solo lvl 4 missions.....Ummmmm unbalanced much. . .or just too much. . .HOW MUCH Too much These forums are for a discussion. (My previous post was sarcasm in case you didn't realize.) SYKOSYS _______________________ "She'll fly apart sir," "FLY HER APART THEN!!!"
Supermonkey	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Supermonkey on 06/07/2005 18:50:23 Originally by: DjDangle Originally by: marshal123 Edited by: marshal123 on 06/07/2005 18:35:44 you were asked to sign it if you agreed you fools go start your own thread, how can he get an acurate picture with the same people flaming every thread. this is for people who agree so if not start one for people that dont and i wont flame yours you arrogant fools. Agreed, some fools just cannot help themselves. So you consider a thread full of alt posts that say "signed" constructive? You can not exclude anyone from an open discussion on open boards. Doing so shows that you lack construtive agruments to back up your idea. Missles still do too much damage to small ships, eg long range guns would never ever hit a frigate orbiting you at close range, while cruise missles still do small amounts of damage. But that is something one can live with. I know to adapt is a difficult thing if you have to do it for your first time, but over time you get used to it and when you realize that everything moves towards a balanced game then you should be able to sacrifice your own advantages to that. ~0~
No Consequences	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:50:00 - [17] I support it whole heartedly, my main just built a Scorp and if the prices on Raven's tank cause all the wussy complex dwellers repackage their ships he might be sad.....or not!
marshal123	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:51:00 - [18] this wasnt a discusion and also i have no alts just me and i am aware of no others who have alts.
Autumnleaves	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Sykosys I am all for it and do not support your idea simply because missles were skills that only required lvl 4 in 4-5 diffrent skills and were 10 times better than turrets which need lvl 5 in about 10 skills to be effective. I would agree if the ONLY ship that used missles was in fact the raven, but in fact it is not and MANY of the other missle using ships, frigates especially just got bent over the table and raped up the ass by this change. The problem is two fold. #1 a turret based ship trains turret skills and is effective. a turret/missle frigate has to train the SAME turrat skills, AND missle skills AND fitting skills to fit the huge jump in grid/cpu requirements on rockets. #2 turret users have different levels of turrets, each with proceedingly higher ranges and grid/cpu costs to upgrade through as they train skills. missle users have ONE, count it ONE launcher which some will be unable to use until MONTHS of training have gone by. Think about how much it would blow chunks to start a new caldari/minmitar pilot with these changes... I have no problem with the launcher changes BUT the following should have been done IN ADDITION to this nurf. #1 - the skill books should have been available months before the nurf was implemented. #2 - Intermediary launchers should have been made available with slower rates, less distance & lower grid/cpu usage JUST LIKE TURRETS to ease new players and give them a path to upgrade while they train basic skills JUST LIKE TURRETS. #2a as an alternative all launcher frigs should have had there grids upgraded acordingly to fit at the minimum a rocket launcher and USABLE guns. A minmatar / caldari pilot shoudl NOT have to train for 3 months to fit a launcher + guns if an amar can fit all of his weapon slots in a day.
Verone	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:53:00 - [20] Welcome to the world of turret pilots. We had to invest massive amounts of time to keep up with the damage output of Arbalest Siege Win button tactics from caldari pilots. Train those skills boys... tough going aint it? MY NAME IS VERONE OF SNIGG, AND I AM GOING TO KILL YOU TILL YOU DIE FROM IT.
No Consequences	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:55:00 - [21] Well then it's in the wrong place, why don't you request a petition forum be built, sounds like a good idea for me See it's a Flame and a Troll, now that talent!
Lunartikk	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Supermonkey Edited by: Supermonkey on 06/07/2005 18:52:24 Originally by: marshal123 this wasnt a discusion and also i have no alts just me and i am aware of no others who have alts. If it wasn't a discussion then what exactly does this post do on the EVE General Discussion forum? He asked people not to reply if they were happy with the changes, notice normal people started responding until the first troll entered the thread. He posted in the only forum suited to his question and relied on humans to be respectful of it.... how stupid of him.
Supermonkey	Posted - 2005.07.06 18:59:00 - [23] Originally by: No Consequences Well then it's in the wrong place, why don't you request a petition forum be built, sounds like a good idea for me I even have a name for it: Whine-O-RAMA ~0~
Supermonkey	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:03:00 - [24] Originally by: Lunartikk Originally by: Supermonkey Edited by: Supermonkey on 06/07/2005 18:52:24 Originally by: marshal123 this wasnt a discusion and also i have no alts just me and i am aware of no others who have alts. If it wasn't a discussion then what exactly does this post do on the EVE General Discussion forum? He asked people not to reply if they were happy with the changes, notice normal people started responding until the first troll entered the thread. He posted in the only forum suited to his question and relied on humans to be respectful of it.... how stupid of him. Read my other post. Devs don't want threads that say "signed" because that is NOT constructive. And his post has 0 value, all he says is he doesn't like it and want his old missles back. He has no arguments, he did not do any testing, he does not provide any results, he did not do any math, he simply wants something without giving anything. Make a construtive post and I will reply to it constructive, and never ever try to exclude anyone from replying, that shows how constructive you really are. ~0~
Sykosys	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:03:00 - [25] Edited by: Sykosys on 06/07/2005 19:04:21 Originally by: Autumnleaves Originally by: Sykosys I am all for it and do not support your idea simply because missles were skills that only required lvl 4 in 4-5 diffrent skills and were 10 times better than turrets which need lvl 5 in about 10 skills to be effective. I would agree if the ONLY ship that used missles was in fact the raven, but in fact it is not and MANY of the other missle using ships, frigates especially just got bent over the table and raped up the ass by this change. The problem is two fold. #1 a turret based ship trains turret skills and is effective. a turret/missle frigate has to train the SAME turrat skills, AND missle skills AND fitting skills to fit the huge jump in grid/cpu requirements on rockets. #2 turret users have different levels of turrets, each with proceedingly higher ranges and grid/cpu costs to upgrade through as they train skills. missle users have ONE, count it ONE launcher which some will be unable to use until MONTHS of training have gone by. Think about how much it would blow chunks to start a new caldari/minmitar pilot with these changes... I have no problem with the launcher changes BUT the following should have been done IN ADDITION to this nurf. #1 - the skill books should have been available months before the nurf was implemented. #2 - Intermediary launchers should have been made available with slower rates, less distance & lower grid/cpu usage JUST LIKE TURRETS to ease new players and give them a path to upgrade while they train basic skills JUST LIKE TURRETS. #2a as an alternative all launcher frigs should have had there grids upgraded acordingly to fit at the minimum a rocket launcher and USABLE guns. A minmatar / caldari pilot shoudl NOT have to train for 3 months to fit a launcher + guns if an amar can fit all of his weapon slots in a day. When did I ever mention raven?? EDIT:: Oh and I am a minnie only pilot so I also now have to train my missle skills as well, since as a minnie pilot I do use both. And I am 100% behind this fix. SYKOSYS _______________________ "She'll fly apart sir," "FLY HER APART THEN!!!"
Kewlnite	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:07:00 - [26] Personally, I believe CCP went too far the other way on missiles. A corp buddy and myself took 2 Ravens in a lvl 3 Extravagace and took 3 hours to complete. Had in launchers 2 torps, 2 cruise, 5 heavies, and 3 lights plus 2 250MM rails with good skills. He has been playing well over 1 year and I am in the 7 month. If this had been done by 2 BS with turrets and equal skills, it would have been completed much sooner. Now if this had been a level 4 extravagance - that would be different. My torps which had done damage of 553 per shot were doing 123 against fixed structures. The nerf was suppose to fix torps so they were not as effective against smaller ships - that I frankly agree with. But a torp against a non-moveable structure with a damage of only 25% prepatch, that is not right and not following the reasons for the change. To further pour salt in the missiles, the range of the torpodoes was reduced from roughly 90km to under 40km - I tested it. Hopefully the new skills will offset some of that. But basically, CCP just killed missile boats. If the skills don't help, then time for me to move on. For you flamers in this post topic, remember it takes all of us to keep Eve going. With peak users of 9-11,000, the loss of any people will ultimately kill this game. This missile nerf did not equal the playing field - it went from one extreme to another.
Sykosys	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Kewlnite Personally, I believe CCP went too far the other way on missiles. A corp buddy and myself took 2 Ravens in a lvl 3 Extravagace and took 3 hours to complete. Had in launchers 2 torps, 2 cruise, 5 heavies, and 3 lights plus 2 250MM rails with good skills. He has been playing well over 1 year and I am in the 7 month. If this had been done by 2 BS with turrets and equal skills, it would have been completed much sooner. Now if this had been a level 4 extravagance - that would be different. My torps which had done damage of 553 per shot were doing 123 against fixed structures. The nerf was suppose to fix torps so they were not as effective against smaller ships - that I frankly agree with. But a torp against a non-moveable structure with a damage of only 25% prepatch, that is not right and not following the reasons for the change. To further pour salt in the missiles, the range of the torpodoes was reduced from roughly 90km to under 40km - I tested it. Hopefully the new skills will offset some of that. But basically, CCP just killed missile boats. If the skills don't help, then time for me to move on. For you flamers in this post topic, remember it takes all of us to keep Eve going. With peak users of 9-11,000, the loss of any people will ultimately kill this game. This missile nerf did not equal the playing field - it went from one extreme to another. Sorry man but have you learned all the new missle skills yet?? Train them up first then come back. Patience is a virtue. Oh and for you Missle users realize some proj ammo got a slight reduction in actual dmg.....you don't see me comming up here going bonkers about it. Just time to test out better ranges SYKOSYS _______________________ "She'll fly apart sir," "FLY HER APART THEN!!!"
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Corvus Dove If you read the bug blog, it's apparent that there are some minor issues with the missile nerf/buff that need to be corrected. From the look of it, the signature radius/damage calculation is screwed. Good to see missions take in the arse though. Newbies in Ravens no more! Is there a link to this said 'bug blog'? --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Drilla	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:13:00 - [29] I want all level 4 agents moved to 0.0 space. Anything else is just carebearish.
Quanteeri	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:16:00 - [30] Edited by: Quanteeri on 06/07/2005 19:18:26 WTB: All your crusty old useless Ravens. 25mil each. Does anyone else see a whole bunch of Raven insurance payouts coming soon? Why not just train your basic missile skills to lvl3-4, would take like 2 days to get back to where you started. Though I do have to admit, I don't understand the physics behind a full-on torpedo doing reduced damage relative to a ship's size.
Autumnleaves	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:18:00 - [31] Edited by: Autumnleaves on 06/07/2005 19:18:09 Originally by: Drilla I want all level 4 agents moved to 0.0 space. Anything else is just carebearish. I want pvp to be consensual with a flag so I could de-flag, goto 0.0 to run those level 4's without getting blowed up, etc. Telling me I have to risk 6 months of work on implants and ships to go do level 4's so some GRIEFER can get 5 seconds of joy is pure BS.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Lunartikk He asked people not to reply if they were happy with the changes Thus making making the petition pure crap, considering there's no way to tell what percentage of your player base is signing the petition. Let me break it down. If 1000 people sign it, that's 1000 yeas. 1000/x = petition thrown in shredder. If 1000 people vote yes and 500 people vote no, you can say the majority agree with the petition and therefore maybe it's worth something other than landfill material. This is why voting is used to determine things in the real world (remember what that world's like?) instead of petitions. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Cartiff	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:23:00 - [33] I did a lev4 last night, me in a torp raven, my mate in a harpy, no probs at all. Takes a few more torps to kill a cruiser (Oh no!!!), BS's die like usual, and i just let my mate blow the frigs away. I have no problems with the patch at all, and if it lets my crow survive a few cruise in PVP, then hell yea. I'm up for it. Lev4's are still a piece of ****, jsut get a mate in a support ship. Cartiff, CEO Euphoria Released NBSI 4TW
ThiefKiller2	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:24:00 - [34] I am sick of people saying stop whining about missiles. Like the must just go around the fourms looking to say stop whining when they are actually whinning about people whinning Thats all Signed
Bozse	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:25:00 - [35] Here u go. btw im a raven pilot and see no problems with the changes.
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:26:00 - [36] Originally by: DrunkenOne I think missiles should be nerfed even more. As there is only 1 non alt in this thread (and alts opinions dont count), and my vote cancels out the 1st guy, this thread now has no supporters. No way, CCP's version of a nerf is to slightly reduce one overpowered aspect of the object in question, while massively increasing the overpoweredness of the other aspects just to appease all the whiners. I think missiles should be 'boosted' instead, maybe then they wont be so overpowered.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:27:00 - [37] Originally by: Bozse Here u go. btw im a raven pilot and see no problems with the changes. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA!!! That's beautiful! ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:41:00 - [38] I am a Caldari I do not like the missile nerf. Neither do I like the fact that every day, when I wake up, I don't have a gold-plated waiter-droid serving me breakfast in bed. I got over it, because I am a Caldari. We adapt, or we stack shelves our whole lives. If you want to live a different life then try running to the Ammar. -- I've seen things you people wouldn't believe Attack ships exploding near the fifth belt of Airaken I watched lasers glitter in the dark near the Korsiki gate All those moments were pretty
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:43:00 - [39] None of you have even trained the necessary new skills to level 3 yet, have you? So why are you complaining about something most of you haven't had any eperience with yet? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
JoCool	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:50:00 - [40] Raven is for PROs
Alerce	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:53:00 - [41] people can calculate even when learning new skills, for a lot of setups, the difference between in the old setup 3 heavy launchers and in new setup 1 heavy launcher and 2 assault launchers due to grid increases, still means, the new setup doesnt have enough range effectivity compared to the old one. I dont care about the damage reduction in a lot of cases, i dont care about the powergrid really, but the problem is if you fit smaller launchers, you dont have enough range, not even when you train the new skills to the maximum. And range is more important then dps in a lot of situations. What you cant hit, you dont do damage to.
Shadowbreed2	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:53:00 - [42] I am caldari The missile CHANGES are perfect, i like them. Learn to use a raven and you won't mind either. Otherwise fly a different ship ----------------------- Beware the Eye of God is watching you
DjDangle	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:55:00 - [43] Lol, faaaaar too many numpties on this site.
Oi Poloi	Posted - 2005.07.06 19:55:00 - [44] Originally by: DjDangle Lol, faaaaar too many numpties on this site. mature statements ftw ----- DJ 4tw
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:01:00 - [45] signed.
Khargos	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:02:00 - [46] signed, stop killing off things for the sake of missions plz ccp, if you dont want people running lvl 4's solo then you shouldntve put lvl 4s in to begen with as people will allways find a way.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:08:00 - [47] Not signed. I been a "DIEHARD" mission runner from start for over 2 years now. I still wish I could get a total number of missions run since I started. Tho I may not agree with all the missle changes and how it was implemented, I must say this change gives the utmost purpose for small ships in high lvl missions. It gives our newer players a reason to stay in their little ships and maximize their engineering skills, repairing skills, and gun/missle skills. That way when they get into their BS's they are thoroughly skilled in functions and controls and familiar with how things work making them much more skilled BS pilots when they so decide to become one. It gives small ships and newer players a purpose again. Especially in the higher lvl PvE mission realm. As long as they do not shoot first under current mechanics are pretty much totally safe in their small ships now. weather I totally agree or not, this patch opens up so many more options for grouped lvl 4 missions regardless if the solo mission raven is the uber or not. Lvl 4's "were initially" ment to be group orientated(even if they changed that idea now) and this patch does improve on just that. Thank you CCP for giving small ship pilots purpose in lvl 4's. Even if you did mess with this 2 year old char from enjoying his game from normal ....... for two weeks. I can live with that after 2 years. Assault frig cover pilots for lvl 4 raven win buttons. You guys are gonna have a blast ..... literally.
implanted	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:19:00 - [48] the nerf is going to effect the fun me and my bro had in our ravens and makes you wonder "why the hell have i been training all this time on missiles and bs when i might has well have trained my frig to the max"! but we loved goin in wiv 2 ravens as we have limited time online so it would be hard to join the bigger corps .we will have to train like f*** to get anywhere near where we used to be.
VonKaplanek III	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:22:00 - [49] Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:46 Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:32 3 words......... Adapt or Die...
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:28:00 - [50] Originally by: JoCool Raven is for PROs and I say "FINALLY!" to that ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Kelcen	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:29:00 - [51] im not a man of big words so. signed.
Cornelius Murphy	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:37:00 - [52] I will reserve my judgment until I have trained the new skills. If it means having to EARN the right to spam the bejaysus out of npc's, great, after all turret users have to!
Karazaan	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:40:00 - [53] Originally by: Bozse Here u go. btw im a raven pilot and see no problems with the changes. Does concord register that as an act of agression if used on another ship? Being an highslot and all...
Altar Mei	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:42:00 - [54] I find it hard to believe that after only two days people have been able to properly test all setups for missiles. Wait, wait, wait, let's just put missiles back to they way they were. Oh, and don't foregt megapulses, ew, and projs on an apoc.... second thought lets just roll every thing back to the original build and we can all spend our time mining just to get into a cruiser!
Cpt Rhet	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:42:00 - [55] Raven pilot here, my damage and rof is hurt but whatever. I dont care as long as t2 launchers are sold by npcs...which I dont know yet...I hope they are, if not that is TOTAL ***** bull**
marioman	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:42:00 - [56] All i have to say is: Harpy tanking 6 Scorps and 1 Raven in 1 group, solo lvl 4s in Harpys 4tw!
Emiug	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:48:00 - [57] what the hell, signed
Akaviri	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:50:00 - [58] As a Raven pilot, I disagree with this petition. The missle changes should stay. ````````````` _ \|\_ ````````````` \` oo\ ````````_____/ =__Y= `````` /` `````` ) `_``` / ` , ``` \/\_.(\_/) ((____\| `` )_--\ \_-`(x.x) `------'`------` `--` (> <) Kitty pwns Bunny!
Bilfiz	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:50:00 - [59] The missle nerf sucks yes we know it an have to deal with it. but for most part the missle skills and missle flight times are way out of LINE and need to be fixed. my real beef is the new flight times holy cow 2 sec for light missles is just useless. and the rate of fire needs to change small turrets ROF is 3 sec ok missle's should be also close to their turret counter parts say 6 or 7 base with skills get it down to 3 for light and rockets and the same for other missle dbl rate of fire of guns would be ok after u max your skills. well the new power gird of launchers is just flat out a dumb idea. "WHY" more PG does not make sence then it harder for new players or we will see none. just my thoughts looks like back to gun boats an time to toss a sheet over the old raven ( for atleast a month for skill traing)
Sorja	Posted - 2005.07.06 20:50:00 - [60] Originally by: Imran Honestly, the guy said he spent his whole eve life doing missles...THERE WERE 5 FKN SKILLS. Just because you actually have to put time into somthing to be effective you are whining and *****ing. seriously, stfu and adapt. STFU yourself Immy and fly your Deimos happily. You SHOULD know Caldari pilots do not only train missiles since you see ME flying gunships and EW ships because Caldari ships SUCKED BALLS. How do you explain experienced Caldari pilots like Darko or Buddrow fly Amarr if the Raven was so powerful? How do you explain the corp asks me to fly covert ops, harpy or interceptor because nobody wants me in a pathetic raven? How do you explain we slaughtered countless ravens/scorpions on every frig squad for monthes with minimal if not no losses it it was so overpowered? Jump in your pink bunny barbie car and drive away with the happy flamers crew. On topic: this post is pointless. Cancel your subscriptions, or simply train the skills while not playing (a major pain since there's not even a queue training feature in a 2 years old game) and see in a while if it's still worth playing if you can't fly anything else but Caldari. But there's no point trying to voice opinions on these boards at the moment, people are too happy a race is nerfed because it benefits them or because they were too pathetic pilots to solo level 4 missions in other races battleships.
Evil Cain	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:10:00 - [61] I am very unhappy with this new nerf and am thinking about closing all my accounts 5 in all
Seth Killbain	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:14:00 - [62] I would say keep the changes as it gives me more to train for, but fix the problems with them. If your gonna nerf them at least get them right.
Mitawyn	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:18:00 - [63] Originally by: Autumnleaves Originally by: Sykosys I am all for it and do not support your idea simply because missles were skills that only required lvl 4 in 4-5 diffrent skills and were 10 times better than turrets which need lvl 5 in about 10 skills to be effective. I would agree if the ONLY ship that used missles was in fact the raven, but in fact it is not and MANY of the other missle using ships, frigates especially just got bent over the table and raped up the ass by this change. The problem is two fold. #1 a turret based ship trains turret skills and is effective. a turret/missle frigate has to train the SAME turrat skills, AND missle skills AND fitting skills to fit the huge jump in grid/cpu requirements on rockets. #2 turret users have different levels of turrets, each with proceedingly higher ranges and grid/cpu costs to upgrade through as they train skills. missle users have ONE, count it ONE launcher which some will be unable to use until MONTHS of training have gone by. Think about how much it would blow chunks to start a new caldari/minmitar pilot with these changes... I have no problem with the launcher changes BUT the following should have been done IN ADDITION to this nurf. #1 - the skill books should have been available months before the nurf was implemented. #2 - Intermediary launchers should have been made available with slower rates, less distance & lower grid/cpu usage JUST LIKE TURRETS to ease new players and give them a path to upgrade while they train basic skills JUST LIKE TURRETS. #2a as an alternative all launcher frigs should have had there grids upgraded acordingly to fit at the minimum a rocket launcher and USABLE guns. A minmatar / caldari pilot shoudl NOT have to train for 3 months to fit a launcher + guns if an amar can fit all of his weapon slots in a day. I think you put that quite well, and I also support what you have said here. If they had to cut us off as they have, they should have done it in stages and not all at once. But when enough of us make enough noise about it all, they will strangle someone else just to get us to shut up on this subject. The world will keep on turning, life will go on, but will people adapt in spite of all the gloating going on by certain sectors? I don't know. As a multiple account owner who has never posted with anything less than their main, I cannot say. I just know this is the first time I have seen CCP do anything to gut an entire group of their player base. Sad.
Chucky	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:23:00 - [64] WTB Ravens, Caracals and Kestrels 1 isk each(I have lvl 5 scrapmetal skill) But honestly the changes to missiles can be over come by skill somewhat, but the powergrid increase was way out of line ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Mitawyn	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:25:00 - [65] Originally by: Bozse Here u go. btw im a raven pilot and see no problems with the changes. This was old and stale months ago. Haven't you got anything original?
Cantari	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:40:00 - [66] Ahem....The Gallente Complained when rails got nerfed, Minnies complained when Pojectiles got nerfed and the Ammarr complained when the lasers to their turn in the nerfing room......which is why I'm not surprised Caldari now complain when their beloved missiles get nerfed. People have to remember that CCP built this game to be MULTIPLAYER. Therefore they will balance it so that to be successful many players will have to band together. If a Raven can't solo a lvl 4 mission (which were designed for 2+ bs and support ships BTW )then get some friends and share the fun. If a Raven can no longer FTWPWN any other bs/cruiser in pvp then....you guessed it...get some friends and share the gate camp loving! You see? Now the raven can no longer do every thing under the shiny eve suns it will mean banding together with people that can cover its short falls. It cant kill frigs? Take an Assault Ship/Inty or two. It cant effectively kill cruiser that are fast moving at close range? Take a blasterthron/Diemos/Rax/Maller You see? Its not so hard to figure out ways around the "Problems" the raven now suffers (along with every other ship and race out there). Now we have all been nerfed and will all have to play together to get any where. So stop the fighting and break out the hot milk and cookies. Cantari
Aneril	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:47:00 - [67] I do not like missile changes. chnges are needed, new skills are needed, but as i think this is not the way. so i agree with petition.
Drunken Claptrap	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:55:00 - [68] Signed Draft Beer Not People
Na'Axin	Posted - 2005.07.06 21:57:00 - [69] you do realize that the more people sign this thread, the more this change was needed right?
Aneril	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:00:00 - [70] to be honest i do not care nor expect that it will change, i just want to show my disaprovment
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:08:00 - [71] Originally by: Sorja blablablabla How do you explain the corp asks me to fly covert ops, harpy or interceptor because nobody wants me in a pathetic raven? blablabla I dont think ive ever seen any of u guys in anything else than a frig/assault frig/inty/covert op anyway.
infused	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:10:00 - [72] God damm. Please stop this. Train the skills. OMG I CANT PAWN ANYTHING!!!!!! It's like me trying to shoot a drone with Tachyon's, does it work? NO. So why should a Torpedo work? [World Domination] [Patch 3366-3538: Mirror Here]
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:13:00 - [73] Originally by: infused God damm. Please stop this. Train the skills. OMG I CANT PAWN ANYTHING!!!!!! It's like me trying to shoot a drone with Tachyon's, does it work? NO. So why should a Torpedo work? Well, being pedantic here, I could say a torpedo and a tachyon beam have absolutely nothing inc ommon and therefore it is useless to compare them in such a rigid fashion. However, CCP are unable to make missiles work differently but with the same effects any other way than the one which has been implemented while retaining some sense of individualism with turrets. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
infused	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:14:00 - [74] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Originally by: infused God damm. Please stop this. Train the skills. OMG I CANT PAWN ANYTHING!!!!!! It's like me trying to shoot a drone with Tachyon's, does it work? NO. So why should a Torpedo work? Well, being pedantic here, I could say a torpedo and a tachyon beam have absolutely nothing inc ommon and therefore it is useless to compare them in such a rigid fashion. However, CCP are unable to make missiles work differently but with the same effects any other way than the one which has been implemented while retaining some sense of individualism with turrets. It is the same, that is the point. Small, Med, Large Guns Light Missles, Heavy, Torps... Get it? [World Domination] [Patch 3366-3538: Mirror Here]
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:18:00 - [75] Turrets have tracking, range, different ammo ranges and ammo dmg types to contend with. That means there are many skills to train to gain effectiveness. Missiles were not affected by tracking, were limited to one kind of damage but received constant high damage, their range was always adequate but were limited by speed of reaching target. These have now been fixed with the addition of new skills. The only difference is that you can't one volley a frigate anymore. That's all you really have to cope with and it's really an easy adaptation. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jackal79	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:19:00 - [76] Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:19:00 - [77] Originally by: Seth Killbain I would say keep the changes as it gives me more to train for, but fix the problems with them. If your gonna nerf them at least get them right. Agree with that. Agree with the fact that missiles did need nerfing, but it seems the nerf is riddled with bugs (e.g. target painters not working on MWDing targets) which makes the nerf worse than it actually is. And I still don't agree with the small ship, small damage thing. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Sykosys Originally by: Kewlnite Oh and for you Missle users realize some proj ammo got a slight reduction in actual dmg.....you don't see me comming up here going bonkers about it. Just time to test out better ranges SYKOSYS Slight is one thing. Fixed structures. This means non moving. This means that the missle should be doing full damage. Hitting a fixed structure my lvl 5 cruise missles are hitting barly over 100 damage. That means all the prediction skills to level 5 gonna do nothing for that also means training any of the new skills except the warhead one which is only 2% per level so 5 levels of it gonna give me what? around 110 120 damage max? with level 5 cruise missle? Thats just goofy.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:22:00 - [79] Although, I will admit that the reduction in effectiveness of named target painters seems quite unneeeded. It simply forces yet another skill train for Raven pilots. I don't think the reduction in effectiveness of TP's has the same effect on turret users. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:24:00 - [80] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Although, I will admit that the reduction in effectiveness of named target painters seems quite unneeeded. It simply forces yet another skill train for Raven pilots. I don't think the reduction in effectiveness of TP's has the same effect on turret users. Seems from posts in the Ships/Modules forum that Target Painters may not be affecting missile damage AT ALL. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:25:00 - [81] Originally by: Jackal79 Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced. you got it all covered there! All the situasions, all the math, everything. The shere stupidity of some people amazes me.
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:27:00 - [82] Originally by: VonKaplanek III Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:46 Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:32 3 words......... Adapt or Die... You had to edit the statememt "adapt or die" 2 times to get it right?
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:29:00 - [83] Does anyone know the dmg output of a Raven using light missiles/rockets with all the appropriate skills highly trained (Level 4 or 5 min.)? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:29:00 - [84] Originally by: Allen Deckard Originally by: VonKaplanek III Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:46 Edited by: VonKaplanek III on 06/07/2005 20:23:32 3 words......... Adapt or Die... You had to edit the statememt "adapt or die" 2 times to get it right? The forums is abit fubared right now, so that might be it. When i edited my other post i got some **** about it not existing, even though the edit took place.
F'nog	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Jackal79 Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced. And it couldn't POSSIBLY be that you have trained all the gunnery support skills to probably IV, and maybe some to V, while you've trained none of the missile support skills yet. No, that can't be the reason. Originally by: Morela "hey! I'm gonna go attack the north! Afk till tuesday!"
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:36:00 - [86] Originally by: marshal123 Edited by: marshal123 on 06/07/2005 18:35:44 you were asked to sign it if you agreed you fools go start your own thread, how can he get an acurate picture with the same people flaming every thread. this is for people who agree so if not start one for people that dont and i wont flame yours you arrogant fools. You dont own the thread. I disagree. The changes were needed.
Neue Regel	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:48:00 - [87] Signed twice for two accounts. I was able to do level 3 missions prior to the patch, now I cant. I had to cancel three in a row last night and lost standing, the last one, which took me prior to the patch like 20 min to complete, now took me almost 1.5 hours. Not going to make much in that time. I hate to go back to mining or doing the little level 2 missions but I guess I will for a while till I get my skills up. PS. I have trained three of the new missile skils to level 2 already, I see nothing that makes a difference, maybe at level 4 you may notice it. I guess I go back to staring at rocks till I can put more SP into missile and Gunnery too. Maybe I was doing level 3 missions too soon anyway <shrug>
DeathGrip	Posted - 2005.07.06 22:56:00 - [88] What is funny is that when all the other guns where Nerfed everyone that flew a Raven said, ahahahahaha, stop whinning you baby. Now that Missles are nerfed its other way around. I think its pretty equal now. Or even better yet, Missles still don't need as much traininig. For Large Guns to be used you have to train Small, Medium and then Large. To use a Cruise Missle or Torp Spec Skill, all you need is that one to lvl 5. [i]Everyone needs to bring PVP to the table, Miners, Builders, Researchers, Get yourself a Frig, and help out some, You may even
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.06 23:12:00 - [89] Originally by: Jackal79 Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced. Not true I BET you have some of the following trained. Rapid firing, motion prediction, surgical strike......
Ben Freegate	Posted - 2005.07.06 23:22:00 - [90] I for one am quite happy with the new patch. WTB: Your crappy raven
Jackal79	Posted - 2005.07.06 23:26:00 - [91] Edited by: Jackal79 on 06/07/2005 23:27:07 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Jackal79 Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced. And it couldn't POSSIBLY be that you have trained all the gunnery support skills to probably IV, and maybe some to V, while you've trained none of the missile support skills yet. No, that can't be the reason. In response to everyone who said the same thing -> "But you've trained your gunnery skills to V!!!", I don't have much in gunnery. All in all I think I have gunnery III, motion pred. II, sharpshooter II, med hybrid III. I have heavy missiles and missiles up to III. Less than 2mil total SP. Yeah, so I have a bit more skills in gunnery than missiles. A whooping 5K skill points more - and guess what - my missiles fire 10x slower and hit 5x weaker. Who was the one who called me stupid anyway? Your probably in high school? Or older but just a "one" huh?
Jackal79	Posted - 2005.07.06 23:32:00 - [92] Edited by: Jackal79 on 06/07/2005 23:32:48 Oh and if CCP wants to change the role of missiles to long range artillery, by all means. They should just keep in mind people who want to fly caldari ships because right now they're screwed. I could train to fly amarr instead it would take me a a week or two to get where I am with caldari (cruiser IV), but I prefer caldari because I like the looks of the ships.
Rult Rantanen	Posted - 2005.07.06 23:55:00 - [93] i agree. signed. this is the most retarded setp they took. i want my bounties back!
Suze'Rain	Posted - 2005.07.07 00:25:00 - [94] I personally feel that the BS sized weaponary is well balanced, but that the missile changes on frigates have gone way, way too far overbalanced. a 2.66x increase in powergrid on a standard launcher, plus the CPU jump too? to decribe the kestrel and similar ships as "emasculated" is an understatement, in the changes which have completely ruined frigate gameplay. (though the biggest hit has been my Buzzard... where two launchers now take up over 90% of the powergrid. Covert ops? yeah, right. impossible to use, more like. However, The "nerf" is justified, the changes are fair at battleship level, but the lower down the scale you go, the more unacceptable the changes are. whereas a railgun user can choose to switch and graduate from 150mm to 125mm rails, and save PG/CPU in a pinch, there is no graduation between launcher types without a drastic leap in ammo type too. My raven is balanced fairly now, vs my ammar BS's. but my Kestrels, are useless.... what it must be like for a 2month old character without the maxed skills, I dread to think. Petition supported, within reason of common sense. Please, CCP, use some common sense for the new players' opportunities?
Commodore Andrews	Posted - 2005.07.07 00:33:00 - [95] This PATCH is a POS!!!!!, I just lost a Tricked Ferrox to a Frig (on a new l3 mission called "The Spy stash" that used to take 2 HV missiles, but now seems to take more like 40 he jammed me and it was all over. IÆm lucky in my 1.5months i saved up 500m or so, I really feel the pain of being a noob trying to make isk when frigs can tank you out... This patch is total BS... IÆve been playing daily for almost 2 months, but after this I am seriously thinking of closing my account... The question really is, ôDO i want to pay $14.95 for a month of missile skilling (while i donÆt even play? I refuse to lose another ship Due to this CRAP!.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.07 00:49:00 - [96] "Does anyone know the dmg output of a Raven using light missiles/rockets with all the appropriate skills highly trained (Level 4 or 5 min.)?" 1 tech.2 cruise launcher has ~2.5x the dps of tech.2 assault, which in turn does ~1.5x what the standard/rocket launcher can dish out. So the Raven with light missiles/rockets would range somewhere between "hahahaa he can't be serious" and "who's tickling me?" :s
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.07.07 00:57:00 - [97] I am so confused...... I tried to run a gate today, guarded by a harpy and a raven. I had a mwd'ing Vigil so I thought "I can make it". I was doing roughly 1900m/s when hit. Here is an unedited game log for your perusal. [ 2005.07.07 00:19:36 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Drokar Gazer [CLS]<ASCN> lightly hits you, doing 40.1 damage. [ 2005.07.07 00:19:37 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Drokar Gazer [CLS]<ASCN> hits you, doing 59.0 damage. [ 2005.07.07 00:19:37 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Drokar Gazer [CLS]<ASCN> barely scratches you, causing 32.5 damage. [ 2005.07.07 00:19:38 ] (combat) <color=0xffbb6600>Wrath Cruise Missile I belonging to Jackoneill hits you, doing 66.3 damage. The rest of the cruise missiles killed me. He can't have had time to train the new missile skills past 2 or 3. Missiles still overpowered? Sure looks like it, especially once the new skills are trained and it's impossible to avoid the new missiles. Nyxus
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:00:00 - [98] Originally by: Commodore Andrews This PATCH is a POS!!!!!, I just lost a Tricked Ferrox to a Frig (on a new l3 mission called "The Spy stash" that used to take 2 HV missiles, but now seems to take more like 40 he jammed me and it was all over. IÆm lucky in my 1.5months i saved up 500m or so, I really feel the pain of being a noob trying to make isk when frigs can tank you out... This patch is total BS... IÆve been playing daily for almost 2 months, but after this I am seriously thinking of closing my account... The question really is, ôDO i want to pay $14.95 for a month of missile skilling (while i donÆt even play? I refuse to lose another ship Due to this CRAP!. Bye 500 mill after 1mnth 21 days. Your ISK outstrips your abilities. Enough said.
garishwinner	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:02:00 - [99] lol this post is great the raven is now so much better post patch once u train the skills. already 0.0 ratting is going faster then it did before patch thnx to the new missile skills. although it is a pain that it take a full reload to kill a frig but wtv. to fix the setup add a web or target painter you will almost double your dmg to frigs. i love the new changes and all i can fly is caldari ships. the only thing i would prefer is that the guided missile precision had its effect on torps but since they are unguided... the point here is missiles are actually better post patch if u just take the time to figure out how to make a new raven setup and take time to train up the skills.
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:03:00 - [100] Fine nerf the missiles themselves, but they also nerfed the launchers by making them use WAY more CPU and powergrid. That's just wrong...it doesn't even nerf missiles, it just nerfs the REST of our setup! Signed, conditionally ___________________________________________ ^^^*---All things serve the Beam---*^^^ GDBT is recruiting!
F'nog	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:27:00 - [101] Originally by: Deja Thoris Originally by: Commodore Andrews This PATCH is a POS!!!!!, I just lost a Tricked Ferrox to a Frig (on a new l3 mission called "The Spy stash" that used to take 2 HV missiles, but now seems to take more like 40 he jammed me and it was all over. IÆm lucky in my 1.5months i saved up 500m or so, I really feel the pain of being a noob trying to make isk when frigs can tank you out... This patch is total BS... IÆve been playing daily for almost 2 months, but after this I am seriously thinking of closing my account... The question really is, ôDO i want to pay $14.95 for a month of missile skilling (while i donÆt even play? I refuse to lose another ship Due to this CRAP!. Bye 500 mill after 1mnth 21 days. Your ISK outstrips your abilities. Enough said. I've been playing since Feb 04 and have yet to have 500mil saved. Pardon me if I fail to have any pity for the Commodore. Note, I've never owned a Raven or done a L4 mission. Originally by: Morela "hey! I'm gonna go attack the north! Afk till tuesday!"
Jepardy	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:36:00 - [102] Ditto. Either that. or give Caldari 2 months free playtime, to catch up.
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:47:00 - [103] It doesnt take 2 months to train up Rank 2 skills (which the base ones are), it takes a couple days. The others are Rank 4 and may take a week or two, but its time you should have had to spend to get where you were before anyway, to be fair. So give everyone non-caldari 6 months free instead, to make up for the time they lost that they didnt have uber guns for 0 training. :P At first I thought this was as the Title indicates. A Petition to Nerf Missiles and Missions, and that petition I'd like to sign. :P
Boaz	Posted - 2005.07.07 01:51:00 - [104] signed.
Imode	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:02:00 - [105] Originally by: Jackal79 Edited by: Jackal79 on 06/07/2005 23:27:07 Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Jackal79 Missiles have been nerfed to the point that they are far weaker than comparable turrets with similar skills. I have heavy missiles III trained and medium hybrid III trained. My heavy missiles do 18 damage to frigates under 20km. My 250mm rail is doing way more per shot and it fires more rapidly. The nerf should be reduced. And it couldn't POSSIBLY be that you have trained all the gunnery support skills to probably IV, and maybe some to V, while you've trained none of the missile support skills yet. No, that can't be the reason. In response to everyone who said the same thing -> "But you've trained your gunnery skills to V!!!", I don't have much in gunnery. All in all I think I have gunnery III, motion pred. II, sharpshooter II, med hybrid III. I have heavy missiles and missiles up to III. Less than 2mil total SP. Yeah, so I have a bit more skills in gunnery than missiles. A whooping 5K skill points more - and guess what - my missiles fire 10x slower and hit 5x weaker. Who was the one who called me stupid anyway? Your probably in high school? Or older but just a "one" huh? So what happens when the frigate closes to 2000 meters? Your missile still does 18 damage, while your 250's miss completely. Maybe its just the overwhelming contrast of seeing such a low damage number now, and missile users would be happier if their missiles just missed entirely?
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:08:00 - [106] "So what happens when the frigate closes to 2000 meters?" The frigate gets webbed, drained, target painted and shot for full damage (with optional smart bombing) before she can say "oops".
Hemloche	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:11:00 - [107] I wholeheartedly agree. CCP went too far with this nerf. What is the point of flying a battleship that uses torps and cruise missiles when I could do the same amount of damage in a frigate using light missiles and rockets. Holder of The Trout, Director - Chaotic Rangers (\_/) This is Bunny with cement shoes. Copy (O.o) Bunny into your signature so we can (> <) help him on his way to sleep with the [XXX] fishes.
4FrEddie	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:19:00 - [108] Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Arch Gistii Ambusher, doing 21.1 damage Ridicule. Or dumb the Raven for 6 turrets and 2 launchers or the ship does not serve for nothing. Not to be to place 6 rockets tec II.
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:20:00 - [109] Signed, but with reservations. I signed because a Heavy Missile should not do less damage than a 250mm Rail. I have not tested all the new missile skills yet but I gather, the new skills with the much more improved velocity of the missiles, they would eventually come out better. I -was- an L4 mission Raven/Tempest/Typhoon runner spamming torpedoes but I got tired of that act long ago. Instead, I was using a baiting technique, where I would come in with another ship, an inty or an assault, bait the inties out of the spawn, isolate and destroy them, and then come back with a bigger ship, usually an armaggedon. It takes a bit more fun but when you are fighting the mission inties with your small turrets on an assault or inty, what a thrill! I hate the fact that my inventory of heavy missiles have become a bit useless. However, there are two types of missiles that came out strong on this, and that is light missiles and rockets. They now hit faster and with greater range. I don't mind the grid increases in launchers as I had previously thought they were too low anyway in comparison with small turret weapons. I played with my Malediction, Ares and Crow against L2 and some L3 missions, and I was hitting targets for over 100dmg with small missiles. How did I make my launchers fit? I took out the turrets and downsized them. While my heavy missiles are less effective now against mission inties, I've been preparing on this for a while. My Sacrilege used to have a 3 Heavy Beam plus 3 Heavy Missile Launcher setup, all named. Now, it will have 3 Heavy Pulse plus 3 Assault Launchers plus Target Painter II. My Ferox used to have two 250mm Rails plus five Heavy Launchers. Now, it has four 250mm Rails, plus three Assault Launchers. Please note that the range of small missiles have greatly increased. In my Cyclone I have exchanged its three heavy launchers with 3 assault launchers. My Raptor, which used to have two 125mm rails and two standard missile launchers, now have two rocket launchers on the latter. The increased range and the ROF of the rocket launchers have made up for this. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Corvus Anderran	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:23:00 - [110] I haven't seen anyone complaining about the massive increase in damage against frigs that are webbed and painted yet. Curious that.
Imode	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:26:00 - [111] Originally by: j0sephine "So what happens when the frigate closes to 2000 meters?" The frigate gets webbed, drained, target painted and shot for full damage (with optional smart bombing) before she can say "oops". 500 points to you! I would have also accepted the answers "droned" or "painted webbed and missiled to death." As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You can whine and quit, or you can train up some skills and be effective again. It's not the end of the world. Anyone who claims to be a die hard missile user surely has at least one or two of the skills trained to 5. After that, it's not asking too much to train 3 or 4 more skills to level 4. Just be happy you don't have to train skills like Heavy Scourge Missile Specialization. As a noob gunner, I die a little inside each time I see the skill tree for t2 guns.
Admiral Pieg	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:28:00 - [112] Originally by: Jepardy Ditto. Either that. or give Caldari 2 months free playtime, to catch up. the devs announced the missile overhaul months ago. If you wanted to wtfpwn everything on day one of the patch you should have trained for t2 turrets or something in the meantime. And if you want to make a petition go to petitiononline, this is a discussion forum you dolt. ______________________ Pod from above.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:28:00 - [113] I'm totally pro-nerfing missiles and missions ! (that's the title isn't it?) Make missile users go through training lower skills to level 5 and the specializations to level 4 before getting the next class of weapon specialization. I'm also 100% behind a "class free" Rate of Fire skill, damage modifier skill, etc for users of Lasers/Projectiles/Hybrids. Get a grip Raven pilots !!!! You have BY FAR the easiest transition for a "nerfed" weapon, and the lowest learning curve for T2 weapons. Yes you got hit by the bat, just learn to adjust, learn more skills like Lasers/Projectiles/Hybrids users already have done. Try playing EVE on "Hard mode", create a Minmatar and fight Angels ..... /emote gives away free cheese to the Raven pilots unwilling to adjust. -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Eronion	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:30:00 - [114] So Missles now require some intelligence before you can use them effectively, big deal. I fly a raven, and I run level 4 missions to earn cash - well, I'll leave it parked for a week or so and chill while I train up. I'll roll out afterwards packing more heat than I did a week ago. Everyone here will end up doing the same, then in a month or so they'll cry to the heavens that this patch was the greatest thing in the world. Ero. "Never trust a Redneck with a battleship..."
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:33:00 - [115] "As a noob gunner, I die a little inside each time I see the skill tree for t2 guns." I die whenever i recall i have over 3.5 mil in gunnery skills, 1.5 mil in missile skills and i can only fly Caldari ships for silly rp reasons... 'railgun sniper' sounded like a cool idea when i was starting >.<;
Plekto	Posted - 2005.07.07 02:48:00 - [116] 'Zactly. NERF COMING. NEXT PATCH. NERF NERF NERF... You think they never read the emails or the forums before. Oh, I get it - it's that they can't figure out "rebalance" the uber-missiles translates into "reduce their effectiveness so retrain other skills and fight with or suffer the wrath of the bat, fool!" Sigh. Whine whine whine. This game has so many ways to accomplish most goals that it's silly. Im most other games you need a balanced loadout. Mechwarrior was a good example of this - you actually needed small lasers up close in the latter games as the large ones weren't effective enough. Conversely, the big slow missiles(Long Tom, iirc) - that did like 40+ damage in one hit - they were only useful versus nearly stationary targets. PPCs could be dodged with annoying predictability, so you had to close and use higher damage per second/faster weapons. I mention this because probably half of these whiners have player Mechwarrior or a game simmilar to it, so they should be all too aware of the need to have a balanced loadout on a ship/vehicle.
Slithereen	Posted - 2005.07.07 03:03:00 - [117] Edited by: Slithereen on 07/07/2005 03:04:29 Do you honestly ever played Mechwarrior? Because if you do, you won't be saying what you just said now. Everyone boats in Mechwarrior. If you understand the term, it means loading the mech with the same weapon, then group them into one single alpha strike that can kill a target in one blow. Sounds familiar? Yes, everyone boats in EVE Online too, but we just don't use the same word. In MW, you take a mech, then load every available slot with ER Lasers if its full of Energy Slots, Gauss if its full of Ballistic slots, or LRMs if it's full of missile slots. Nobody mixes. Whether you shoot long or shot range, they're equally good. In EVE, everyone boated until the tracking nerfs came which forced people to put small turrets in battleships. Before that, putting small weapons in a battleship would get you seriously laughed at or decried as a noob. _______________________________________________ "Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies, "Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. "Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
Plekto	Posted - 2005.07.07 03:13:00 - [118] The early games had this problem, I'll grant you, but try it in the latest ones - you get squished by heat and innacuracy within a minute or less, so loading them out like they were intended is your only resort unless you are using tactics that wouldn't work versus any human pilot or are only fighting 1-2 NPC opponents. A better example in RL would be a tank. The main gun is there for looks in an urban engangement. Just firing it would collapse a ton of rubble on top of yourself or most likely hit the wrong people. So they added smaller machineguns and so on to deal with threats other than other tanks. These missile whiners sound like they honestly think you should be able to reliably hit a single soldier(EVE equivalent would be a frigate) with a tank's main gun(or missiles in EVE) at 200 ft.
slip66	Posted - 2005.07.07 03:29:00 - [119] Originally by: Imran Honestly, the guy said he spent his whole eve life doing missles...THERE WERE 5 FKN SKILLS. Just because you actually have to put time into somthing to be effective you are whining and *****ing. seriously, stfu and adapt. sums it up well
Killer Dragon	Posted - 2005.07.07 03:32:00 - [120] I agree, this missile nerf needs to be reduced. I to have spent my eve life around caldari which Depend on missiles.
Fillmeup	Posted - 2005.07.07 05:10:00 - [121] Wow, I could rant for ages but just can't be bothered anymore as this around the 8th, distinct, seperate thread that deals with exactly the same issue that I have responded to. Missle users have had it easy. Set and forget tactics while bathing your naked relative do not work anymore, nor should they have ever worked. I know I am not 'allowed' to respond to this thread, but come on, this in all seriousness is just plain stupid. People that don't see this are short-sighted imho. Someone else summed it up very well: "Would you expect to hit a housefly with a banana?" Kudos to the person that wrote this, as it is the simplest way of explaining something that soooo many people just don't get. Read it, understand it and then adapt to it. We all had to 12-months ago.
The Hellion	Posted - 2005.07.07 05:46:00 - [122] Originally by: Cpt Rhet Raven pilot here, my damage and rof is hurt but whatever. I dont care as long as t2 launchers are sold by npcs...which I dont know yet...I hope they are, if not that is TOTAL ***** bull** and why would tech 2 missile launchers be the only tech 2 item to be sold by npc's? They won't be sold by npc's and you won't complain because if you seriously expected them to be sold by npc's you'll be too embarrased to admit it on these forums.
Opticon	Posted - 2005.07.07 06:20:00 - [123] Originally by: Sykosys I am all for it and do not support your idea simply because missles were skills that only required lvl 4 in 4-5 diffrent skills and were 10 times better than turrets which need lvl 5 in about 10 skills to be effective. And a player that flies a BS after 1 month and thinks they can solo lvl 4 missions.....Ummmmm unbalanced much. . .or just too much. . .HOW MUCH Too much These forums are for a discussion. (My previous post was sarcasm in case you didn't realize.) same I agreed with this dude i got 9 mil points in gunnery and a noob like to do the same damage with only a month training + on top of it he never miss total crap that is SYKOSYS -_-
Sheph	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:14:00 - [124] Signed up for this - i dislike the changes
Viceroy	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:22:00 - [125] Me and all of my alts disagree, and fully support the missile balance. I have almost all the old missile skills at lvl5, a raven and I find the new changes to be absolutely sextastic. Also, I am giving out cookies to all disgruntled lvl4 agent runners and "combat pilots" who can't nuke every class ship with torpedoes anymore. __________________________ Finite Horizon Your end is our beginning.
Artean	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:25:00 - [126] I agree! Signed and all! Nerf those missiles and, in particular, the Raven!! The amount of dmg this beast will through at you when the new skills are trained is insane, I tell ya!! INSANE!! ........ There's a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot...
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:27:00 - [127] Ok patch is in. And as everyone who knows me knows I am a Caldari Pilot. I love my Raven, and tbh, the changes are both warranted and needed. My Torps still do decent damage on a BS, my cruise are also good vs BS and nice and fast (cruise vs Cruiser is not so good) But my problem with the current patch lies here within: In my crow, in a straight frig vs frig fight, my rockets do about 7.3 damage. Compare that with the turret base dfrigates, and I am a dead man walking. (the fitting changes are again ok, its not the end of the world that Cal users now need a MPAC to fit, although we could do with a mid or low range rocket and standard launcher with low fitting reqs, Hybrid Turret users get 150 125 and 75mm guns for example, missile boats have only 1 choice) So back to the damage output. Am i missing something here? Standard launchers do not fair any better, so basically, missile vs frigate warfare, is now redundant. I have climbed back into my trustee Malediction, with tech 2 pulse, and if I see a crow, i know I have won, my damage is 5x his. I do not believe the skills will make that much difference. I have begun training, nad not noticed huge improvements per level, which would be needed if its to balance out eventually, and painters certainly DO NOT make f all difference :(. And heavy missiles are just as bad vs a frig, even if its webbed and double painted, they are next to useless. OVERALL, the skills are an excellent idea, specialised Missile Boat Pilots have entered the arena, and my raven will at last be more of a rarity in the world of Eve, but in cruiser vs cruiser and Frigate vs Frigate warfare, some balancing is needed, as right now missile boats are totally and utterly innefective. Someone show me some hope. Someone show me what I have missed. I don't wanna ditch my cerb and Crow, so gimme the light at the end of the tunnel please :) xx The damage clacs and how skills will effect them would be a good starting place. :) xx http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
Valerie Ganor	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:29:00 - [128] sheesh... I'm very happy with how things turned out! Keep up the good work CCP! And to all you kestrel/carcaral/raven (ab)users: Revenge is sweet. ----------------------------------------------- Win the crowd...
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:31:00 - [129] mmm as a gallente pilot of a megathon my missiles are doing less damage but thts not such a bad thing - everyone has had a months warning on the forums about this change and had time to train up missile skills. Still i think its balanced but the dataminingwill soon determine if CCP make any changes
Saleene Yersa	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:32:00 - [130] The new missile changes are what was requireed. most missile fenatics just cant stand the fact that they can no longer get instant pwnage.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:37:00 - [131] mmm the game balanced and require more co op on level 4 missions and other activities - this is a good thing lower level rats have higher ISK now as well which allows new players quicker riches into the mid level parts of the games. Once players get their missile skills up as complex as gunnery is now they will get back to the old abilities. Im just wonderingif we are going to get new classes of weapons to play with.
Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:39:00 - [132] I can't believe such threads can even exist...
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:47:00 - [133] I like my Raven and missiles, however, I also trained gunnery and later for tech2 artilery. When compare the skills I need to be effective at gunnery and the skills needed for missiles (pre patch), its to cry over how easy it been to use missiles. Fair enough being a missile user before the patch had its disadventages particular in pvp with slow missiles and such but that changed at a cost of other things that was needed. Train the new skills and adapt, crying over it is useless. Or you could always train gunnery skills if missiles doesn't do it for you anylonger. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Hakera	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:53:00 - [134] I dont get it, its technically a boost this patch for missiles, just a nerf in versitility. The same thing turrets have had to put up with for ages. You have 3 seperate skills adding to your dps, 2 to your range and speed and 2 to increase cruise missile and smaller versitility. All you have to do is train the new skills and you will be better than pre-patch with the exception of having to alter some vanilla setups due to grid changes and even thats partially countered by a new skill. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Sheve	Posted - 2005.07.07 09:57:00 - [135] Quote: Please Only sign this if you support it. If you don't then just don't reply! This is constructive. I want to let ccp know how many people do not like the nerf to the entent it has been enforced. I for one want to see the nerf reduced.... Do some people even read the first post?, go make an i love the patch thread and let people post there feelings.
Captain Rod	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:00:00 - [136] I agree Ruffio. I am an accomplished gunner. I was "OK" with cruise and torps before patch. I suck big time with them after patch. I think its great there are more skills involved in missles. All you planks that are complaining about it really are expecting everything to be given to you on a plate. The new skills with a few cheap mods will allow your missles to perform better than before? You are either very dumb or should be put in a single player game where you get all equipment and ships free with no interaction. A T.S.P.O.N.A.B. (Tiny Single Player Offline No Brainer).
bUBbLeS	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:09:00 - [137] new missile 4tw Julius ceaser : "operor vos volo MCCCXXXVII laganum bUBbLeS?"
Kar Brogan	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:09:00 - [138] Originally by: Sheve Quote: Please Only sign this if you support it. If you don't then just don't reply! This is constructive. I want to let ccp know how many people do not like the nerf to the entent it has been enforced. I for one want to see the nerf reduced.... Do some people even read the first post?, go make an i love the patch thread and let people post there feelings. Actually the people disagreeing with the original poster are doing the thread a favour.A whole stream of nothing but 'signed' would potentially consitute spam...and thus beckon deletion.
Jeff McDaniels	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:11:00 - [139] Just cancelled my subscription, due to the changes to the missiles...maybe it will be changed again, the way it is right now it's just no fun anymore...
Bozse	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:17:00 - [140] Originally by: Mitawyn Originally by: Bozse Here u go. btw im a raven pilot and see no problems with the changes. This was old and stale months ago. Haven't you got anything original? How about this for a combo. btw. i didn't make them so thanks to whom ever i stole them from =/
Chee	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:26:00 - [141] all those people that are complaining need to take a deep breath and relax pre-patch you were overpowered. thats hard to understand when your not a turret user but its something you have to cope with. Now you are presented with a fresh start and specialisation skills and mechanics /rant on I would go so far as you lot are lazy. Youve been so 'spoiled' with the pre-patch missiles that now your a bunch of sissies that give up before they have had a good look at the new mechanics and tactics. /rant off I just had to say that. All I see is missile topics everywhere, its making me
rayfin	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:29:00 - [142] Originally by: Corvus Dove If you read the bug blog, it's apparent that there are some minor issues with the missile nerf/buff that need to be corrected. From the look of it, the signature radius/damage calculation is screwed. Good to see missions take in the arse though. Newbies in Ravens no more! i would suspect there is some truth in this as i could not touch a gurista "merlin type" frigate with 2 light missile launchers and 2 heavy launchers down too more than 90% shield while at 5k-7k range and i had trained all the new missile skills to a level of one just to see if it would improve the current situation it did raise the damage slightly but not enough to warrent a kill i was in a raven and did not bother with my 2 cruise missles as i saw that as a waste of isk.....
Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:41:00 - [143] Originally by: Sheve Quote: Please Only sign this if you support it. If you don't then just don't reply! This is constructive. I want to let ccp know how many people do not like the nerf to the entent it has been enforced. I for one want to see the nerf reduced.... Do some people even read the first post?, go make an i love the patch thread and let people post there feelings. yeah right I'm afraid I read the first post, and that's exactly what saddened me that much. "don't reply if you don't agree" great... "petition"? Since when is CCP supposed to care about "petitions"??? I think there's a reason why there isn't any "poll" feature in these forums (but I know, "I'm paying a monthly fee, CCP just obey your paying customers or we'll all quit" GAAAH) And about starting another thread... "Petition - I love the new patch - sign r STFU" great Enough stupid threads around there today don't you think?
Sherkaner	Posted - 2005.07.07 10:44:00 - [144] Originally by: DjDangle Please Only sign this if you support it. If you don't then just don't reply! This is constructive. I want to let ccp know how many people do not like the nerf to the entent it has been enforced. No, it's not. Constructive would be if you were saying what you don't like about the changes, why you don't like it, and how it could be done better. What you are doing is spam forum rules \| [email protected]

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