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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
82
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Posted - 2013.01.30 03:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Its time to have a common sense discussion on allowing CSM members to remain anonymous. There are a number of safety issues being ignored, and few common sense justifications for not maintaining a CSM's anonymity. Currently CCP lists the real names of the players sitting on the CSM its been previously stated by CCP Xhagen from the May-June CSM minutes that:
Quote: CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
First lets address this "creating accountability" statement. CCP already knows who we are, they have our billing information, in the CSM vetting process they definitely know we can obtain a passport and are eligible to run. When a person gets elected to the CSM and signs that NDA, a binding legal document, its not their character name being put down on the paper. I would say at this point the person on the CSM is pretty darn accountable having gone through all of that. So what does having a person's real life name being publicly known add to that?
You don't know me in real life, you know me by my character, by my alliance, by my killboard and the posting I do on here. So if I tossed my name out there, how does that allow you to get to know me any better? How does that make me any more accountable than signing my name to a legal document? It doesn't.
Now lets look at this in terms of "practical matters." I know that CCP handles credit card numbers and other billing information which it maintains confidentially. At least I hope so because I don't think any of us would be all that happy having our financial information unprotected and floating out there. So if CCP can safeguard that information, how does it suddenly become not practical safeguard someone's real life name. I mean they are all ready doing that right now when they keep your billing data secret from the public, in fact its not just your name but also your credit card number. How hard is it to have a CSM member only known by their character name? Apparently it must be really hard so perhaps we should demand CCP to show us that they can in fact keep our billing information safe. Maybe CCP should just do the right thing instead and make the CSM anonymous.
Okay third thing in CCP Xhagen's statement is that if the anonymity issue keeps people from stepping up he is willing to pay the price. Actually that is the worst thing I have ever heard from a business standpoint when your problem solving and looking for innovation. Your never going to over take other MMOs and acquire more of a market share if your purposefully cutting off a potential stream of solutions and innovations. Those solutions and innovations when applied translate into revenue earned in new player acquisition and player retention.
Finally lets look at CCP's "safety net." CCP Xhagen states if some sort of harassment occurs they will call the authorities. There are a few problems with that. Mainly the authorities get called after the commission of a crime, they show up after the fact which means its too late. We have already had incidents in the past of people getting harassing calls at their homes, work and having their public information posted on these forums which oddly enough CCP frowns on. I don't think I need to rehash the names of banned players who engaged in stalking and being a nuisance. But consider this, CCP has gotten lucky that these people lacked the means or motivation to carry out the commission of a serious crime. What happens when one day some mentally ill person knocks on another players door and the result becomes a shocking story on the news? What happens when a sharp lawyer asks a jury "What should CCP have reasonably done knowing the problems they had to deal with in the past?" How much could CCP afford in attorney costs, settlements and the ensuing PR and media campaign to restore their image? Does it sound almost if not criminally indifferent to you that CCP says "its the authorities problem?" Why should CCP put out players willing to help them improve the game and keeping them viable as a computer game company? You would think a little care on CCP's part would make sense.
Now in the same May-June minutes we have Seleene and Two Step saying this:
Quote:Two step pointed out that it does potentially reduce the diversity of the CSM, and also reduce the likelihood of getting the real assholes. Maybe that latter is a good thing, but it isn't accurately representing the community.
Seleene noted that anonymity does allow people to go the extra mile and be total dicks, so he had to agree with Trebor. Being on CSM requires a certain amount of responsibility and boldness, and if you're not willing to put yourself out there, maybe you shouldn't run.
Guess what we have plenty of jerks on the CSM right now. It doesn't tone down people pushing personal agendas that fail to benefit our broad player base. It doesn't stop Seleene and Two Step calling people concerned about their safety "assholes" and "dicks." In my opinion it takes a massive ******* to say another persons safety doesn't matter. Also its very telling when someone considers your play style to be an indication of you as a human being. That's what every person trying to censor computer games and console games says, "what you do in a game is who you are as a person." What a terrible message to condone. [Continued]
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Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
82
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Posted - 2013.01.30 03:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you are wondering how I reach that conclusion its merely a matter of simple logic. As I said early you can only know me from my character name, how I play, who I fly with and how I post. Its impossible for you to know me in an other fashion. EVE is thankfully only a small fraction of my life and it can't show you everything about a person. Now as for Seleene and Two Step are forgetting that people do in fact separate real life from their game play. When they make their argument otherwise its horrifying because they know better. I don't think either of them will tell you they live their life like they play their characters in game.
If you simply take a step back and look at the arguments for exposing the real names of CSM members to the rest of EVE on whatever grounds you like, you will find it just doesn't make sense. I think its time for CCP to step in and fix this for the benefit of everyone. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1106
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Posted - 2013.01.30 04:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
And if someone's name were to slip out?
What happens then?
It's easier, and safer, for CCP to say 'Real Names'. So there's no possible comeback on them if one of their staff happens, say in an interview, to refer to them by their real name. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2724
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Posted - 2013.01.30 04:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Exhibit A for passing this |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
83
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Posted - 2013.01.30 04:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:And if someone's name were to slip out?
What happens then?
It's easier, and safer, for CCP to say 'Real Names'. So there's no possible comeback on them if one of their staff happens, say in an interview, to refer to them by their real name.
Why would a name slip out? If CCP can prevent all our billing data and credit card numbers from slipping out I think they can treat a persons name the same way. There is no reason for a staff person to mention a players real name in any context. |
ZionShad
88
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Posted - 2013.01.30 05:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1
Great Post Scooter Zion TCD CEO ( ZionTCD.enjin.com ) Co-Host "Podside" Podcast on iTunes DUST 514 Beta Tester -á |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
1691
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Posted - 2013.01.30 05:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
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Singular Snowflake
New Order Logistics CODE.
99
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Posted - 2013.01.30 07:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
I fully support Scooter on this one. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
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Posted - 2013.01.30 09:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:CCP Xhagen: The answer to "why are we using real-life names" is "practical matters". We are playing on human nature, creating accountability, and we can't guarantee you will remain anonymous when you run for CSM, therefore it's just easier -- the simple solution to all this is, "we will just publish your real-life name". If that reduces the number of candidates, then we are willing to pay that price. It also means that if someone starts to threaten you, you have a certain safety-net with the authorities because they are threatening you as a real person, not as an EVE character.
Look at that quote. Just look at it. Even on its own, the belief that unpaid consultants deserve to have their personal information revealed for the purposes of encouraging vigilante justice is deplorable; that this was said in the wake of the Fanfest debacle is insulting on top of it.
If Eve's playerbase can be counted on for one thing, it's going too far, and this has been demonstrated time and time again. There is no need at all to release this information to anyone, and doing it despite the issues that come up is irresponsible at best. Doing it to unpaid consultants who give up a year of their time with zero compensation to help you make more money is beyond disgusting. Fix your ****. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Kainotomiu Ronuken
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
796
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Posted - 2013.01.30 09:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm with Scooter. I don't think that real names have any place in an internet spaceship game, even if the spaceship politicians get to go to Iceland. It simply isn't information that the playerbase needs to know, and the only thing that the players could do with the knowledge is either nothing or harm someone. There's no reason to tell us.
You have become the pubbie, Mittani. Yours is the temple whose technetium-clad tables are at risk of being overthrown, whose seats need mixing. You're the one who fears war. -- Sadleric |
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
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Posted - 2013.01.30 10:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered.
Personally I think we are too risk adverse to do that, lets get serious for once.
Personally I would stalk trebor, as my CSM of choice. He stirs drama, has nice things, could entertain me with Star Wars quotes.
See we really shouldn't share personal information, once someone lets it slip they have a better Star Wars card collection, or know more about Star Trek then I do, then RL incidents could occur we would all feel bad about. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
3911
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Posted - 2013.01.30 10:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered.
What the **** dude, seriously? Vice Secretary of the 7th Council of Stellar Management.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7454
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Posted - 2013.01.30 10:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. What the **** dude, seriously?
I have a new aspirational goal! Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2724
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Posted - 2013.01.30 10:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
buying up liquid ozone in anticipation for the mass malcanis 'cynobration of life' ceremony |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3251
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Posted - 2013.01.30 12:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Uh, WTF. Did you even read the minutes you are quoting? I was the strongest advocate for not publishing real names, I guess the thanks I get for that is "Two step thinks you are an *******". Thanks for proving I was right. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
1034
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Posted - 2013.01.30 13:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I am naturally against this.
As a mentally deranged individual, how am I supposed to stalk members of the CSM if their real names are not given?
But seriously it is one of those things where you know it is only a matter of time before someone in the game dislikes the CSMs ideas so much that someone is murdered. What the **** dude, seriously?
Don't worry Hans, I have full confidence that if Frying Doom's apocalyptic scenario of forced murders happened. You would come out the victor, and only the stalker would have to worry about the fated meeting. Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1109
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 13:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
So you stand on the stage, with your face broadcast to thousands of people, and someone somewhere recognizes you, and posts your real name, address, etc to reddit. Is CCP now liable for your name getting out, because they broadcast your RL image, even though they didn't give your name? If you then get harrassed, can you sue CCP for a breach of confidentiality?
Perhaps as a company, instead you say that your information will be made public, and it's your choice to run or not.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2417
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7471
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
If anyone is planning to stalk me, I hope they have a very high boredom threshold.
On the other hand, trolling someone so hard that they try and murder me... Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
2417
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If anyone is planning to stalk me, I hope they have a very high boredom threshold. On the other hand, trolling someone so hard that they try and murder me...
Can I stalk you? A / S / L? CSM 7 Chairman My Blog - Where I say stuff Follow Seleene on Twitter! |
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Zakn Tawate
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
23
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
My only Reference is Eve Vegas where we initially all introduced each other in RL names. Within 15 min we still were back to the names that we knew each other in Eve. Hell even the numbers for SMS stuff are labeled by Eve name because that's how I know them.
Hell even at the Gents/Goon party at the Wynn I called everyone by their Eve name. Courthouse, Mittani, Veritas etc. |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
64
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
If you want to be anonymous, don't apply to CSM. It's as simple as that.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
warp drive active |
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions Free 2 Play
121
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
when i run for csm i had to put in my real name, and i made the decision to do so. if you want to represent a community then the community should be able to know who is representing 'em.
and as someone who is voting for CSM, i do want to know the realname of a candidate aswell. i want to be sure that if someone i vote for is the person i think he is, or if its the douchebag who was in last csm just with another character...
if you want anonymity, you shouldn't apply for a public post. 3rdPartyEve.net - your catalogue for 3rd party applications |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Black Legion.
1031
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory. "Alekseyev Karrde: mercenary of my heart."-á -Arydanika, Voices from the Void
Hero of the CSM Noir./Noir. Academy Recruiting: www.noirmercs.com |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
404
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
I oppose this. Just like any other election, I have a right to know who I'm voting for considering that their decisions will greatly impact me in the long run. If you don't want to show your real name, I suggest you don't run for CSM. Adapt or Die |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
2553
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Posted - 2013.01.30 15:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is a difficult topic with equities on both sides. Let me give you some of the counter-arguments:
Scooter McCabe wrote:You don't know me in real life, you know me by my character, by my alliance, by my killboard and the posting I do on here. So if I tossed my name out there, how does that allow you to get to know me any better? How does that make me any more accountable than signing my name to a legal document? It doesn't. Your character does not serve on the CSM -- you, the person, do. And your RL qualifications do matter quite a lot.
Quote:Okay third thing in CCP Xhagen's statement is that if the anonymity issue keeps people from stepping up he is willing to pay the price. This is where your best argument is. There are definitely some well-qualified people who will not run for CSM because of possible RL blowback. However, it's not harrassment/stalking that is the major concern -- it's professional consequences. For example, IIRC The Mittani has stated that he would not have run for CSM when he was working as a lawyer, and other people have told me they won't run for the same reason.
From a realistic standpoint, if someone really, really wants to find out who you are in RL, they are going to be able to do it. What serving on the CSM does is make you a more visible member of the community, and thus a larger target. But so does being an Alliance/Coalition leader, or a popular blogger, etc.
As things currently stand, I believe that the balance of equity is in favor of making CSM candidate RL identities public, but not hugely so. However, if there were a way for candidates to be able to disclose their RL qualifications in a verified but anonymous way (for example, CCP validating their claimed resumes), the balance might well tip slightly the other way. But then, the extra effort involved on CCP's end might not be worth it (to CCP). The Sarcasm is Strong with Me GÇó Member of CSM 5-7 GÇó Blog |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:If getting a death threat is too much for you to handle, don't run for public office, either in RL or EVE. Comes with the territory.
CSM isn't "public office"; even the lowest public office has pay and actual power/influence. The choosing of the CSM may be a political process, but you're not a governing body, you're a group of consultants who aren't getting paid. That's an important distinction to make.
The bottom line to me is that the playerbase has absolutely no need or use for your personal information, so CCP has no reason to disclose it at-will to a playerbase who has proven in the past they cannot be trusted with information like this. Yes, the identities might get leaked anyway, and there's obviously no guarantees CCP could make to protect you or your identity in any way, but that doesn't mean they have to default at just handing it over to the players. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1112
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
I think the only way being anonymous would work would be if you were applying to be a non-trip CSM. Those that don't actually fly over, should in reality be just as important of a voice as those that do, but don't appear that way. If people wanted to remain anonymous, but help beef up the bench, so to speak, then that would be a compromise i could go along with.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7474
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 15:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zakn Tawate wrote:My only Reference is Eve Vegas where we initially all introduced each other in RL names. Within 15 min we still were back to the names that we knew each other in Eve. Hell even the numbers for SMS stuff are labeled by Eve name because that's how I know them.
Hell even at the Gents/Goon party at the Wynn I called everyone by their Eve name. Courthouse, Mittani, Veritas etc.
My EVE name is much cooler than my disappointing RL name. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Scooter McCabe
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
85
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Posted - 2013.01.30 16:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
Seleene wrote:I don't care what you call yourself in the mirror, if I meet you in person then I am going to call you Noah or Greg or Robert or Alex or Josh or whatever your actual name is. If you're going to represent a real community about a real video game that has real problems, you should probably expect that the company will want you to use your real name too. v0v
The company already knows my and that's the point. Only they need to know it and everyone else can know you by your character. What does knowing my name tell you about me, what does my name have to do with my knowledge of the game or ideas?
Now Trebor's post is makes some points similiar to Seleene's but ultimately comes back to the fact that CCP will know who you are.
Quote:Your character does not serve on the CSM -- you, the person, do. And your RL qualifications do matter quite a lot.
My real life qualifications matter how exactly? If anything people can use their real life "experience" to pettifog the fact they don't know what they are talking about game wise. Lets say someone creates a text based MMO game and then turns around and claims they are an game engineer of a massive MMO. Its not being very honest, its a text based MMO and doesn't match the scope and complexity of the coding, graphics and maintenance of EVE Online. Perhaps if that claim was made with no way to verify it, unless the person decides to out themselves that's their business, people can't bend the truth for a free trip to Iceland.
Quote:From a realistic standpoint, if someone really, really wants to find out who you are in RL, they are going to be able to do it. What serving on the CSM does is make you a more visible member of the community, and thus a larger target. But so does being an Alliance/Coalition leader, or a popular blogger, etc.
Okay if someone really, really wants to find out my billing information I suppose CCP is powerless to protect my credit card number. If that's the case we have a community wide duty to demand CCP prove they can protect that information. Of course we know they can because its never been leaked out before and the legal liability is something CCP doesn't want to face. If CCP gets caught with its pants down because it lazily opted to do nothing despite evidence and warnings that should have prompted action, the lawsuit will be financially devastating. Its not a question of if they will get sued, but when. To ignore a preventable problem by taking only a little care is as callous as Winter Blink saying:
Quote:If you want to be anonymous, don't apply to CSM. It's as simple as that.
And yes, it really is just that simple.
This is the best quote of all because it ultimately sums up any argument made to deny CSM members anonymity, there is simply no logic behind it. You won't find any logic or reasoning behind the statement because there is no to support it. If you look past the initial statement's face value there simply isn't anything there. I'm not sorry to say that's the case for some of the more eloquently crafted posts against anonymity, those posts are the same but come in much nicer packaging.
Oh and as a Parthian shot to this post you'll notice that every CSM member and CSM hopeful that runs on their character name. Look at some of the signatures in the posts by CSM members. Go to their websites and see if its John Smith 2013 or their character name and a catchy campaign slogan. They don't use their real name because its not what you know them by, and I assume when possible they would rather not have the community at large know who they are because they don't seem to use their real names in the CSM minutes or here on the forums.
Come on guys how about being the decent human beings you purport yourselves to be and actually support this measure. Its meant to benefit everyone including CCP. |
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