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Battleship Anti-Frigate mods

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Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:54:00 - [31] There's a way these can be worked into game balance, you'll just have to make sure that adding anti-frigate capabilities degrades battleship killing capabilities (somehow). Besides, I think flak cannons would rock.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Rendai The problem with believability of the ship size balance in Eve is that in real life, battleships have FAR FAR FAR more than 2-3x high slots than what a tiny gunboat could carry. They can mount the same type of guns, just a hell of a lot more of them. This could be made manifest in Eve by giving BS's double the highslots they have now, but keeping the powergrid/CPU the same, and allowing powergrid/CPU to be the main limiting factors in ship fitting. Without doing something like that, or making BS-sized anti-frig weapons, we have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of BS's being unable to wipe out small ships at all. An artificial, and unrealistic mode of forcing battleships to group. Game balance and fun come first imho, real life realism has little place here in the far, far future. I personally feel that ships of all classes should have equal usefullness to a fleet in one form or another, even if they do it in vastly different ways. And for reference frigates were supposed to be vessels that needed crews of 10-60 before the introduction of capsule technology (which reduced them to more like 1-6) the only "tiny gunboat"'s here are the drones From an RP standpoint the very reason that battleships were not designed with myriad smaller weapons is presumably the fact that frigates are so cheap comparitively - for the empires the idea that a battleship would operate without a lot of dirt cheap frigates and cruisers to back them up and defend them from other small ships is laughable. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:02:00 - [33] Edited by: Sobeseki Pawi on 10/07/2005 21:03:42 Unfortunately, Eve wasn't designed with much basis in reality in regards to relative ship classification. If it was BSes would be extinct, Cruisers with missiles would rule the universe and pirates would be in Frigates killing Industrials. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:08:00 - [34] I do agree with a lot of what people are posting here but i still feel almost forced to rely on other players and that people who want to be solo captains are being pushed out. i'm not asking an uber death mod, yes i know i can still take out frigates with torps but i would rather they be a BS vs BS weapon as they are trying to push, i could save ammo with my BS weapons if point defence was introduced
Sku1ly	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:13:00 - [35] I say we mount a Destroyer in one of the HighSlots, that way we have a nice dedicated AntiFrig weapon of doom.
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:29:00 - [36] Such a module is already available. They fall under the category of Medium Turrets, and also any medium missile or assault missile launcher. In addition, including one or two of these gives you a bonus to PG which should allow you to fit a superior tank. Ultimately, the cruiser is going to have to be the most superior anti-frigate platform. It would be pointless to usurp its role with a single module on a hardier yet less mobile platform. Making an ultra-long range, high tracking, anti-frigate flak gun is either superfluous or disruptive. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:36:00 - [37] i agree that cruisers and deffo other frigates should be better, all im asking is that a Battleship (especially the Raven) has SOME point defence and doesn't have to use many torps as you really cant carry that many as it is
Peri Stark	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:41:00 - [38] Frigates and cruisers use small guns to shoot down frigates, a battleship can to. CCP is trying to bring more realistic ballistics and fighting to the game. There is no reason huge weapons should hit smaller ships. It's like someone throwing a truck at a person standing a mile away. That person takes 2 steps to the side and it misses. He is not going to stand there and watch it arc toward him and not move. Comparing it to reality a BS would have different size weapons and would have smaller support ships with it. Comparing it to other sci-fi a BS would have smaller ships that it could deploy to defend against smaller craft. In EVE we call them drones. The have fixed an unfair distortion of ballistics. We just don't like it because we are used to it. ================================================ Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:55:00 - [39] i agree Peri, i totally agree and i would lose to see this... like B5/starwars etc... but as we all know, drones are just simply not upto the job at the moment
Earthan	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:12:00 - [40] Originally by: Cetshwayo Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again I agree with you , the opening thread suggestions are bad, imho even the target painter should be removed. You want to shoot frigs in bs use a small class weapon system.ITs good enough. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....
Zothike	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:23:00 - [41] i dont think such module is needed some gun already exist for such task and some modules too, it's why battleship in 'rl' have main gun and secondary artillery to kill more little ship, webber/painter/tracking link are enought, and if u fit 2 or so light/med gun it save powegrid/cpu for bigger/big gun or big modules fitting 8 big gun/torp/cruise is a specialisation choice, ccp told us they want more team play, then a big thingy specialized ship teamed with a medium/little thingy specialised ship work perfectly
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:26:00 - [42] Ok if we want to be childish about fair suggestions and cammonts peeps make Yes...make FRIGSs the "omgwtficanthityouregardlessunlessichosetoflyonetoo!!1"
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Zothike i dont think such module is needed some gun already exist for such task and some modules too, it's why battleship in 'rl' have main gun and secondary artillery to kill more little ship, webber/painter/tracking link are enought, and if u fit 2 or so light/med gun it save powegrid/cpu for bigger/big gun or big modules fitting 8 big gun/torp/cruise is a specialisation choice, ccp told us they want more team play, then a big thingy specialized ship teamed with a medium/little thingy specialised ship work perfectly Webber/painter/tracking link do not help with missiles.
Earthan	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:31:00 - [44] its not us who are childish. 1) npc I can kill in megathron 5-6 inties and 1-2 bs with same setup.Sure its a fairly balanced setup , i would be more effective if setup only against bs or frig but thats the whole point. 2) Pvp fit hvy nosferatus and every small ship will be dead. You can use hvy drones+webber, small guns and more. SO really really i dont see a need for more bs anti-frig defence or we are back in eve 1,5 years ago , no other ships then bs everywhere. Finally if you insist onbeing able to kill nearly everything alone and lone i would suggest a Heavy assualt cruiser ,its pretty balanced. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....
Zothike	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:40:00 - [45] "Webber/painter/tracking link do not help with missiles." missiles even big one dont need theses modules to hit big gun can't hit at all little ship that come close and antdung keep cool it's a discussion where everybody bring his point of view , dont insult ppl because they dont think like you
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:43:00 - [46] I don't, i only talk down to people who talk down to me, fair comments like yours i dont mind, some others just try to be clever
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.07.11 00:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Vishnej on 11/07/2005 00:32:12 Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Originally by: Rendai The problem with believability of the ship size balance in Eve is that in real life, battleships have FAR FAR FAR more than 2-3x high slots than what a tiny gunboat could carry. They can mount the same type of guns, just a hell of a lot more of them. This could be made manifest in Eve by giving BS's double the highslots they have now, but keeping the powergrid/CPU the same, and allowing powergrid/CPU to be the main limiting factors in ship fitting. Without doing something like that, or making BS-sized anti-frig weapons, we have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of BS's being unable to wipe out small ships at all. An artificial, and unrealistic mode of forcing battleships to group. Game balance and fun come first imho, real life realism has little place here in the far, far future. I personally feel that ships of all classes should have equal usefullness to a fleet in one form or another, even if they do it in vastly different ways. And for reference frigates were supposed to be vessels that needed crews of 10-60 before the introduction of capsule technology (which reduced them to more like 1-6) the only "tiny gunboat"'s here are the drones From an RP standpoint the very reason that battleships were not designed with myriad smaller weapons is presumably the fact that frigates are so cheap comparitively - for the empires the idea that a battleship would operate without a lot of dirt cheap frigates and cruisers to back them up and defend them from other small ships is laughable. [accidentally posted the above on my alt Rend] That idea is a sound one - battleships dominate because of insurance and the fact that you can replace one on a single level 4 mission's income. Remove insurance(Or, a more moderate choice, make insurance payout cost the same amount on the first 50% as it does on the second 50%), and you won't be able to go into a battle with a cheap battleship and tech1 mods without having to worry about losses. I'm in favor of battleships that aren't so uber-specialized, but are protected by smaller ships solely because they represent such a major investment, a key part of the power of a fleet, rather than the grunts that do all the damage. It's ludicrous that the Death Star would rely ONLY on its main gun to take out everything - but it's equally ludicrous to call on it to cut out 1/8 of the power of its main gun in order to add in an anti-aircraft gun.
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.07.11 00:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Sku1ly I say we mount a Destroyer in one of the HighSlots, that way we have a nice dedicated AntiFrig weapon of doom. A game this cool (Bugs and trolls aside) could pull that off. Maybe make it like the Alpha/Beta Veritech from Robotech? Only they'd have to make a pop-up for the destroyer that warns them they will not be able to navigate while conjoined and stuff, and have it disable half the bs's weapons, rounded down of course, for the piloting ship...
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.07.11 01:40:00 - [49] Theres no need, we have the Small turrets and Assault Launchers already ingame.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.11 01:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Antdung these are just EXAMPLES... the caldari could get a rail simmilar system and webs dont help missile damage... check Yes they do, check. Versus a MWDing frigate, a web is a large missile's best friend.
Kashre	Posted - 2005.07.11 02:25:00 - [51] If battleships are made too effective against frigs there will be no call for destroyers or assault frigs in their designed role. So no, this is a bad idea. Use small guns, small launchers and drones. It works, its just slower, which is good cause its not impossible but it does give you a reason to pull our your rusty little Wolf or Jag other than looking for AF vs AF 1v1, since thats about the only use they had when nos/siege BS slaughtered everything out of hand. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:36:00 - [52] I'm not talking about having something 'too' effective, i'm talking about something simillar to what we already have, but with a lot more ammo capacity so i dont have to keep using my torps on frigs (which CCP are trying to steer me away from doin), the assault launcher is the rough equivelent of the Cruiser light missile fire, why not have a Large assault launcher which can carry more missiles, therefore saving 'already limited' torp cargo space
Remedial	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:43:00 - [53] Battleships already have anti-frigate options up the wazoo. 1)They can fit medium or small turrets or assault/standard launchers. 2) Dronebays on most battleships can be STUFFED full of light and medium drones. 3) Webbers, ECM, etc. are particularly effective on frigates. 4) Smartbombs (in lower sec space or 0.0, or when fighting away from clusters in Empire)
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:49:00 - [54] I'm not trying to make an argument about what methods can be used against frigates, i know there are other methods.. My point is, point defence could be a nice addition if thought out and ballanced properly
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:54:00 - [55] put a nos on and stop whining
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Kaeten put a nos on and stop whining Get a life and stop spamming
Charles Tucker	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Antdung Taking into consideration the new Missile changes and the already in place problems with hitting frigates that BS's have does anyone agree that there should be BS size turrets that specialise in taking out frigates... i mean i agree that even modern day Battleships would have trouble tracking speedy small targets with their deck guns so they have specialised weaponry installed to do so. We all know that using your remaining 2 or 3 slots doesn't cut it for taking out frigates, especially when your BS only gets bonuses to LARGE hybrids/projectiles say. CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Also another idea would be to make such mods self tracking with A.I such as f.o.f missiles, where you activate them and they auto fire on anything within 20km to save locks etc... I think these type of mods would stop MANY of the people who are upset being disgruntled about the new changes Please reply to the post if you think these are good ideas, keep the post bumped so it doesn't fall to the back of oblivion never to be seen by CCP again!!! Ant Why adding this? You only have to undo missile changes. Every Tier II BS can hold at least 2 launchers. Dominix and Armageddon are the only 2 BS which cannot hold launcher, but both have a large Drone Space (Geddon can hold 10 Heavy drones, Dominix has largest BS Drone Space in game), so every BS could have a good defense against friggs. But first all cry for missile nerf, now they want to include new Anti-Frigate-Weapon. Let the game like it is atm, BS has to fit some small weapon and can use drones against friggs, that has to be enough.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Antdung Originally by: Kaeten put a nos on and stop whining Get a life and stop spamming nos > frig end of story. There are anti-frig setups howver your too stupid to thin kof any.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Charles Tucker Originally by: Antdung Taking into consideration the new Missile changes and the already in place problems with hitting frigates that BS's have does anyone agree that there should be BS size turrets that specialise in taking out frigates... i mean i agree that even modern day Battleships would have trouble tracking speedy small targets with their deck guns so they have specialised weaponry installed to do so. We all know that using your remaining 2 or 3 slots doesn't cut it for taking out frigates, especially when your BS only gets bonuses to LARGE hybrids/projectiles say. CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Also another idea would be to make such mods self tracking with A.I such as f.o.f missiles, where you activate them and they auto fire on anything within 20km to save locks etc... I think these type of mods would stop MANY of the people who are upset being disgruntled about the new changes Please reply to the post if you think these are good ideas, keep the post bumped so it doesn't fall to the back of oblivion never to be seen by CCP again!!! Ant Why adding this? You only have to undo missile changes. Every Tier II BS can hold at least 2 launchers. Dominix and Armageddon are the only 2 BS which cannot hold launcher, but both have a large Drone Space (Geddon can hold 10 Heavy drones, Dominix has largest BS Drone Space in game), so every BS could have a good defense against friggs. But first all cry for missile nerf, now they want to include new Anti-Frigate-Weapon. Let the game like it is atm, BS has to fit some small weapon and can use drones against friggs, that has to be enough. hes a dummy, he wants his bs to take out frigs with ease. If this was to be implemented everyone would fly around in bs's.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:03:00 - [60] Light Drones simply do not bite it atm imho, any half decent pilot can sort a few drones out, i mean anything over lights and a AB sorts them out too... Small weapons? yup i can fit 2 on my ship at best if i still want to break tanks in under 3 hours.. and 2 simply do not cut it either

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