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Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 18:59:00 - [1] Taking into consideration the new Missile changes and the already in place problems with hitting frigates that BS's have does anyone agree that there should be BS size turrets that specialise in taking out frigates... i mean i agree that even modern day Battleships would have trouble tracking speedy small targets with their deck guns so they have specialised weaponry installed to do so. We all know that using your remaining 2 or 3 slots doesn't cut it for taking out frigates, especially when your BS only gets bonuses to LARGE hybrids/projectiles say. CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Also another idea would be to make such mods self tracking with A.I such as f.o.f missiles, where you activate them and they auto fire on anything within 20km to save locks etc... I think these type of mods would stop MANY of the people who are upset being disgruntled about the new changes Please reply to the post if you think these are good ideas, keep the post bumped so it doesn't fall to the back of oblivion never to be seen by CCP again!!! Ant
Cetshwayo	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:12:00 - [2] Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:16:00 - [3] I think it's a good idea for two reasons. One, it'd make missions more doable and fun again. Two, the idea of a dedicated flak battleship in a fleet just rocks. You have my vote sir. For what it's worth.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:26:00 - [4] Originally by: Cetshwayo Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again Actually you have made me think deeply... and i now agree. We should keep Eve unrealistic like it is now... and my 120 million isk battleship should have very little defence against you 150k frigate...
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Blind Fear on 10/07/2005 19:32:42 And the difference between these and small weapons that are already an effective defense against frigates? Oh, right - you werent looking for effective. You were looking for absurdly, retardedly overpowered. Carry on then. Originally by: Antdung Actually you have made me think deeply... and i now agree. We should keep Eve unrealistic like it is now... and my 120 million isk battleship should have very little defence against you 150k frigate... Game balance > realism.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:36:00 - [6] Oh, right - you werent looking for effective. You were looking for absurdly, retardedly overpowered. Carry on then. Originally by: Antdung Actually you have made me think deeply... and i now agree. We should keep Eve unrealistic like it is now... and my 120 million isk battleship should have very little defence against you 150k frigate... Game balance > realism. Ah look, its a comment from the flaming alt again, serious unflamed comments please
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:37:00 - [7] I don't think he was asking for overpowered. I mean, if you have that battleship point-defence chaingun, it costs 1800 grid, and is maybe 1.5-2x as effective as a frigate autocannon, that's not too much. While it's good against frigs, that BS pilot just gave up two slots once occupied by siege launchers, for weapons with a 10km range that do good against frigs but not much else - and he paid a lot of grid to do it.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:39:00 - [8] i think you should take a good look at realism... an apache unship doesn't strap M16's to its sides to combat infantry, it uses more effecive equipment that is specialised to it... Why should battleships use frigate weapons?
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Antdung Ah look, its a comment from the flaming alt again, serious unflamed comments please I'd ask you to explain why you think these weapons would improve the game balance compared to fitting small turrets, but you and I both know you arent competent enough to make that argument. And just for fun, I'm going to kill your 150k frigate argument. There. Done.
babylonstew	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:40:00 - [10] Originally by: Antdung CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Ant wtf, caldari get a defender anti missile system right, but every other race gets an anti frig anti torp weapon?, where the hell is the damn balance in that ffs? and btw, you want to hit frigs, use drones and a web like we caldari been told for the last week or so , just like i do (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.

Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:42:00 - [11] these are just EXAMPLES... the caldari could get a rail simmilar system and webs dont help missile damage... check
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I don't think he was asking for overpowered. I mean, if you have that battleship point-defence chaingun, it costs 1800 grid, and is maybe 1.5-2x as effective as a frigate autocannon, that's not too much. While it's good against frigs, that BS pilot just gave up two slots once occupied by siege launchers, for weapons with a 10km range that do good against frigs but not much else - and he paid a lot of grid to do it. Hmmm. The question is mainly range/tracking though. If you give them blaster/AC tracking with rail/artillery range, then they will obliterate every frigate in seconds. Perhaps medium weapon type tracking with a 50m sig resolution and small rail/beam/artillery range/damage?
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Antdung i think you should take a good look at realism... an apache unship doesn't strap M16's to its sides to combat infantry, it uses more effecive equipment that is specialised to it... Why should battleships use frigate weapons? Why should frigates use frigate weapons? Realism would be loading my cargo hold full of torps and ramming you, killing you instantly. Stop being retarded. Game balance > Realism.
Seth Killbain	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:44:00 - [14] Souns like a good idea tbh, it never seems right sticking lights onto battleships. But an effective antifrig gun that uses Large gun power sounds reasonable.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:45:00 - [15] Blind fear if you cant be adult and have to flame, u dont like my ideas?? don't post i dont wanna hear your flame
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Antdung Blind fear if you cant be adult and have to flame, u dont like my ideas?? don't post i dont wanna hear your flame Best way to defend your suggustions and balance ideas is to break down in a ball of tears with a tech2 tissue. I'm convinced now, battleships need weapons that can instakill frigs.
Cetshwayo	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Antdung Originally by: Cetshwayo Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again Actually you have made me think deeply... and i now agree. We should keep Eve unrealistic like it is now... and my 120 million isk battleship should have very little defence against you 150k frigate... It's called NOS, web, Smartbombs, drones...
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:48:00 - [18] Yup there are other methods.. but why not the most obvious? a munition based defence such as guns?
Kyle Chimko	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:48:00 - [19] well i think that this is already in game. i believe its called using a smaller weapon for faster tracking. BUT as a caldari pilot i wouldnt mind having the extra speedy defender missile launcher as this would defend against all missiles, but i suppose that my oppent would have it too. yay caldary standoff
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Blind Fear Hmmm. The question is mainly range/tracking though. If you give them blaster/AC tracking with rail/artillery range, then they will obliterate every frigate in seconds. Perhaps medium weapon type tracking with a 40m sig resolution and small rail/beam/artillery range with double the damage? Absolutely not, that would be overpowered. I'm talking about a weapon which, taking skills into account, has a range that tops out at 10-15km... that's what point defence means to me. It has the signature resolution of a small gun, double the damage of a 200mm autocannon AT THE MOST, and costs enough grid that its fitting has to be justified by the BS pilot. 1800mw or so.

Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Blind Fear Hmmm. The question is mainly range/tracking though. If you give them blaster/AC tracking with rail/artillery range, then they will obliterate every frigate in seconds. Perhaps medium weapon type tracking with a 40m sig resolution and small rail/beam/artillery range with double the damage? Absolutely not, that would be overpowered. I'm talking about a weapon which, taking skills into account, has a range that tops out at 10-15km... that's what point defence means to me. It has the signature resolution of a small gun, double the damage of a 200mm autocannon AT THE MOST, and costs enough grid that its fitting has to be justified by the BS pilot. 1800mw or so. That would work perfectly, but IMO one thing has to stay--10 or more frigates (especially tech 2) should always be able to take down a battleship easily. If point defense cannons are powerful enough to fend off an entire interceptor swarm, they're too good. -- Want your POS to make money? Call me up. I've designed POSs that make upwards of 50m a day.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:56:00 - [22] "Absolutely not, that would be overpowered. I'm talking about a weapon which, taking skills into account, has a range that tops out at 10-15km... that's what point defence means to me. It has the signature resolution of a small gun, double the damage of a 200mm autocannon AT THE MOST, and costs enough grid that its fitting has to be justified by the BS pilot. 1800mw or so." Isn't that pretty much replacing the destroyer with a specialized battleship weapon(s), so the user can take the advantage of extra armour and cap the battleship can offer..? (although admittedly it'd look cool...)
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:58:00 - [23] I agree, i'm not talking about a frigate version of the old torp of one shot death. i'm talking a Large BS class gun that has trackng/syg radius of small guns, maybe the same/slightly more damage or more rapid fire, or even just a large ammo capacity
Cetshwayo	Posted - 2005.07.10 19:59:00 - [24] Why bother? The ones I mentioned aren't just used for anti-frig. They can be used vs any ship class really. So why bother implementing your idea when there are others that do it just fine? It'd fill a very specific role sure. But would you rather fit a web, NOS, drones etc that can tackle BSs as well as frigs or a gun that can only harm frigs?
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Blind Fear Hmmm. The question is mainly range/tracking though. If you give them blaster/AC tracking with rail/artillery range, then they will obliterate every frigate in seconds. Perhaps medium weapon type tracking with a 40m sig resolution and small rail/beam/artillery range with double the damage? Absolutely not, that would be overpowered. I'm talking about a weapon which, taking skills into account, has a range that tops out at 10-15km... that's what point defence means to me. It has the signature resolution of a small gun, double the damage of a 200mm autocannon AT THE MOST, and costs enough grid that its fitting has to be justified by the BS pilot. 1800mw or so. Double the damage of 200mm AC and give it the large weapon ship bonuses and you WILL be doing more damage then low-end large autocannon, with similar range and a ton more tracking. I'd start using nothing but those guns to kill everything of any size. The problem is that if you increase damage of small weapons, then you're going to be doing more damage then medium and some large weapons. If you keep the tracking of small weapons, then youre going to be doing that damage to everything. You've just created the new uber short-range guns.
Greystar	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:01:00 - [26] i like to mention that i do not have any problems taking down frigates with my torpedos.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:11:00 - [27] Okay, so 1.5 times the damage. Just so that having two of these guns, would be like having a wingman in a frigate bolted to your ship. I seriously doubt this would cause any imbalance.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:25:00 - [28] Assault Launchers need more capacity, more ROF, and less cpu. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Rendai	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:30:00 - [29] The problem with believability of the ship size balance in Eve is that in real life, battleships have FAR FAR FAR more than 2-3x high slots than what a tiny gunboat could carry. They can mount the same type of guns, just a hell of a lot more of them. This could be made manifest in Eve by giving BS's double the highslots they have now, but keeping the powergrid/CPU the same, and allowing powergrid/CPU to be the main limiting factors in ship fitting. Without doing something like that, or making BS-sized anti-frig weapons, we have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of BS's being unable to wipe out small ships at all. An artificial, and unrealistic mode of forcing battleships to group.
Barak Lizear	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:44:00 - [30] Im confused here, already this has been pointed out several times, but yet everyone chooses ot ignore it in place of inventing a new, game unbalancing, uber mod of BS soloing. BS's can already take out frigates in several ways: Group with a mate in a smaller ship, carry Nos and/or Webifiers and drones, fit small guns for the tracking bonus being some of them. And to those who argue for realism beign a reason to unbalance BSs versus the other ships, remember that this is a game, and enjoyment of that game, which comes directly from it being well balanced and enjoyable for all from the newest to oldest players, is of primary importance.

Kyoko Sakoda	Posted - 2005.07.10 20:54:00 - [31] There's a way these can be worked into game balance, you'll just have to make sure that adding anti-frigate capabilities degrades battleship killing capabilities (somehow). Besides, I think flak cannons would rock.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Rendai The problem with believability of the ship size balance in Eve is that in real life, battleships have FAR FAR FAR more than 2-3x high slots than what a tiny gunboat could carry. They can mount the same type of guns, just a hell of a lot more of them. This could be made manifest in Eve by giving BS's double the highslots they have now, but keeping the powergrid/CPU the same, and allowing powergrid/CPU to be the main limiting factors in ship fitting. Without doing something like that, or making BS-sized anti-frig weapons, we have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of BS's being unable to wipe out small ships at all. An artificial, and unrealistic mode of forcing battleships to group. Game balance and fun come first imho, real life realism has little place here in the far, far future. I personally feel that ships of all classes should have equal usefullness to a fleet in one form or another, even if they do it in vastly different ways. And for reference frigates were supposed to be vessels that needed crews of 10-60 before the introduction of capsule technology (which reduced them to more like 1-6) the only "tiny gunboat"'s here are the drones From an RP standpoint the very reason that battleships were not designed with myriad smaller weapons is presumably the fact that frigates are so cheap comparitively - for the empires the idea that a battleship would operate without a lot of dirt cheap frigates and cruisers to back them up and defend them from other small ships is laughable. . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:02:00 - [33] Edited by: Sobeseki Pawi on 10/07/2005 21:03:42 Unfortunately, Eve wasn't designed with much basis in reality in regards to relative ship classification. If it was BSes would be extinct, Cruisers with missiles would rule the universe and pirates would be in Frigates killing Industrials. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:08:00 - [34] I do agree with a lot of what people are posting here but i still feel almost forced to rely on other players and that people who want to be solo captains are being pushed out. i'm not asking an uber death mod, yes i know i can still take out frigates with torps but i would rather they be a BS vs BS weapon as they are trying to push, i could save ammo with my BS weapons if point defence was introduced
Sku1ly	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:13:00 - [35] I say we mount a Destroyer in one of the HighSlots, that way we have a nice dedicated AntiFrig weapon of doom.
Maxine Stirner	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:29:00 - [36] Such a module is already available. They fall under the category of Medium Turrets, and also any medium missile or assault missile launcher. In addition, including one or two of these gives you a bonus to PG which should allow you to fit a superior tank. Ultimately, the cruiser is going to have to be the most superior anti-frigate platform. It would be pointless to usurp its role with a single module on a hardier yet less mobile platform. Making an ultra-long range, high tracking, anti-frigate flak gun is either superfluous or disruptive. Locking Times & Evil Asteroids
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:36:00 - [37] i agree that cruisers and deffo other frigates should be better, all im asking is that a Battleship (especially the Raven) has SOME point defence and doesn't have to use many torps as you really cant carry that many as it is
Peri Stark	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:41:00 - [38] Frigates and cruisers use small guns to shoot down frigates, a battleship can to. CCP is trying to bring more realistic ballistics and fighting to the game. There is no reason huge weapons should hit smaller ships. It's like someone throwing a truck at a person standing a mile away. That person takes 2 steps to the side and it misses. He is not going to stand there and watch it arc toward him and not move. Comparing it to reality a BS would have different size weapons and would have smaller support ships with it. Comparing it to other sci-fi a BS would have smaller ships that it could deploy to defend against smaller craft. In EVE we call them drones. The have fixed an unfair distortion of ballistics. We just don't like it because we are used to it. ================================================ Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 21:55:00 - [39] i agree Peri, i totally agree and i would lose to see this... like B5/starwars etc... but as we all know, drones are just simply not upto the job at the moment
Earthan	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:12:00 - [40] Originally by: Cetshwayo Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again I agree with you , the opening thread suggestions are bad, imho even the target painter should be removed. You want to shoot frigs in bs use a small class weapon system.ITs good enough. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....

Zothike	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:23:00 - [41] i dont think such module is needed some gun already exist for such task and some modules too, it's why battleship in 'rl' have main gun and secondary artillery to kill more little ship, webber/painter/tracking link are enought, and if u fit 2 or so light/med gun it save powegrid/cpu for bigger/big gun or big modules fitting 8 big gun/torp/cruise is a specialisation choice, ccp told us they want more team play, then a big thingy specialized ship teamed with a medium/little thingy specialised ship work perfectly
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:26:00 - [42] Ok if we want to be childish about fair suggestions and cammonts peeps make Yes...make FRIGSs the "omgwtficanthityouregardlessunlessichosetoflyonetoo!!1"
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Zothike i dont think such module is needed some gun already exist for such task and some modules too, it's why battleship in 'rl' have main gun and secondary artillery to kill more little ship, webber/painter/tracking link are enought, and if u fit 2 or so light/med gun it save powegrid/cpu for bigger/big gun or big modules fitting 8 big gun/torp/cruise is a specialisation choice, ccp told us they want more team play, then a big thingy specialized ship teamed with a medium/little thingy specialised ship work perfectly Webber/painter/tracking link do not help with missiles.
Earthan	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:31:00 - [44] its not us who are childish. 1) npc I can kill in megathron 5-6 inties and 1-2 bs with same setup.Sure its a fairly balanced setup , i would be more effective if setup only against bs or frig but thats the whole point. 2) Pvp fit hvy nosferatus and every small ship will be dead. You can use hvy drones+webber, small guns and more. SO really really i dont see a need for more bs anti-frig defence or we are back in eve 1,5 years ago , no other ships then bs everywhere. Finally if you insist onbeing able to kill nearly everything alone and lone i would suggest a Heavy assualt cruiser ,its pretty balanced. Stars, stars like dust, all around me....
Zothike	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:40:00 - [45] "Webber/painter/tracking link do not help with missiles." missiles even big one dont need theses modules to hit big gun can't hit at all little ship that come close and antdung keep cool it's a discussion where everybody bring his point of view , dont insult ppl because they dont think like you
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.10 22:43:00 - [46] I don't, i only talk down to people who talk down to me, fair comments like yours i dont mind, some others just try to be clever
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.07.11 00:30:00 - [47] Edited by: Vishnej on 11/07/2005 00:32:12 Originally by: Zyrla Bladestorm Originally by: Rendai The problem with believability of the ship size balance in Eve is that in real life, battleships have FAR FAR FAR more than 2-3x high slots than what a tiny gunboat could carry. They can mount the same type of guns, just a hell of a lot more of them. This could be made manifest in Eve by giving BS's double the highslots they have now, but keeping the powergrid/CPU the same, and allowing powergrid/CPU to be the main limiting factors in ship fitting. Without doing something like that, or making BS-sized anti-frig weapons, we have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of BS's being unable to wipe out small ships at all. An artificial, and unrealistic mode of forcing battleships to group. Game balance and fun come first imho, real life realism has little place here in the far, far future. I personally feel that ships of all classes should have equal usefullness to a fleet in one form or another, even if they do it in vastly different ways. And for reference frigates were supposed to be vessels that needed crews of 10-60 before the introduction of capsule technology (which reduced them to more like 1-6) the only "tiny gunboat"'s here are the drones From an RP standpoint the very reason that battleships were not designed with myriad smaller weapons is presumably the fact that frigates are so cheap comparitively - for the empires the idea that a battleship would operate without a lot of dirt cheap frigates and cruisers to back them up and defend them from other small ships is laughable. [accidentally posted the above on my alt Rend] That idea is a sound one - battleships dominate because of insurance and the fact that you can replace one on a single level 4 mission's income. Remove insurance(Or, a more moderate choice, make insurance payout cost the same amount on the first 50% as it does on the second 50%), and you won't be able to go into a battle with a cheap battleship and tech1 mods without having to worry about losses. I'm in favor of battleships that aren't so uber-specialized, but are protected by smaller ships solely because they represent such a major investment, a key part of the power of a fleet, rather than the grunts that do all the damage. It's ludicrous that the Death Star would rely ONLY on its main gun to take out everything - but it's equally ludicrous to call on it to cut out 1/8 of the power of its main gun in order to add in an anti-aircraft gun.
Bleakheart	Posted - 2005.07.11 00:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Sku1ly I say we mount a Destroyer in one of the HighSlots, that way we have a nice dedicated AntiFrig weapon of doom. A game this cool (Bugs and trolls aside) could pull that off. Maybe make it like the Alpha/Beta Veritech from Robotech? Only they'd have to make a pop-up for the destroyer that warns them they will not be able to navigate while conjoined and stuff, and have it disable half the bs's weapons, rounded down of course, for the piloting ship...
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.07.11 01:40:00 - [49] Theres no need, we have the Small turrets and Assault Launchers already ingame.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.11 01:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Antdung these are just EXAMPLES... the caldari could get a rail simmilar system and webs dont help missile damage... check Yes they do, check. Versus a MWDing frigate, a web is a large missile's best friend.

Kashre	Posted - 2005.07.11 02:25:00 - [51] If battleships are made too effective against frigs there will be no call for destroyers or assault frigs in their designed role. So no, this is a bad idea. Use small guns, small launchers and drones. It works, its just slower, which is good cause its not impossible but it does give you a reason to pull our your rusty little Wolf or Jag other than looking for AF vs AF 1v1, since thats about the only use they had when nos/siege BS slaughtered everything out of hand. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:36:00 - [52] I'm not talking about having something 'too' effective, i'm talking about something simillar to what we already have, but with a lot more ammo capacity so i dont have to keep using my torps on frigs (which CCP are trying to steer me away from doin), the assault launcher is the rough equivelent of the Cruiser light missile fire, why not have a Large assault launcher which can carry more missiles, therefore saving 'already limited' torp cargo space
Remedial	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:43:00 - [53] Battleships already have anti-frigate options up the wazoo. 1)They can fit medium or small turrets or assault/standard launchers. 2) Dronebays on most battleships can be STUFFED full of light and medium drones. 3) Webbers, ECM, etc. are particularly effective on frigates. 4) Smartbombs (in lower sec space or 0.0, or when fighting away from clusters in Empire)
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:49:00 - [54] I'm not trying to make an argument about what methods can be used against frigates, i know there are other methods.. My point is, point defence could be a nice addition if thought out and ballanced properly
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:54:00 - [55] put a nos on and stop whining
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Kaeten put a nos on and stop whining Get a life and stop spamming
Charles Tucker	Posted - 2005.07.11 12:59:00 - [57] Originally by: Antdung Taking into consideration the new Missile changes and the already in place problems with hitting frigates that BS's have does anyone agree that there should be BS size turrets that specialise in taking out frigates... i mean i agree that even modern day Battleships would have trouble tracking speedy small targets with their deck guns so they have specialised weaponry installed to do so. We all know that using your remaining 2 or 3 slots doesn't cut it for taking out frigates, especially when your BS only gets bonuses to LARGE hybrids/projectiles say. CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Also another idea would be to make such mods self tracking with A.I such as f.o.f missiles, where you activate them and they auto fire on anything within 20km to save locks etc... I think these type of mods would stop MANY of the people who are upset being disgruntled about the new changes Please reply to the post if you think these are good ideas, keep the post bumped so it doesn't fall to the back of oblivion never to be seen by CCP again!!! Ant Why adding this? You only have to undo missile changes. Every Tier II BS can hold at least 2 launchers. Dominix and Armageddon are the only 2 BS which cannot hold launcher, but both have a large Drone Space (Geddon can hold 10 Heavy drones, Dominix has largest BS Drone Space in game), so every BS could have a good defense against friggs. But first all cry for missile nerf, now they want to include new Anti-Frigate-Weapon. Let the game like it is atm, BS has to fit some small weapon and can use drones against friggs, that has to be enough.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:00:00 - [58] Originally by: Antdung Originally by: Kaeten put a nos on and stop whining Get a life and stop spamming nos > frig end of story. There are anti-frig setups howver your too stupid to thin kof any.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Charles Tucker Originally by: Antdung Taking into consideration the new Missile changes and the already in place problems with hitting frigates that BS's have does anyone agree that there should be BS size turrets that specialise in taking out frigates... i mean i agree that even modern day Battleships would have trouble tracking speedy small targets with their deck guns so they have specialised weaponry installed to do so. We all know that using your remaining 2 or 3 slots doesn't cut it for taking out frigates, especially when your BS only gets bonuses to LARGE hybrids/projectiles say. CCP could introduce specialised systems for example such as: MINMATAR CHAINGUNS - Very rapid firing chainguns for tracking frigates & torps AMARR CHAIN LASERS - Very rapid firing lasers to slice & dice frigates & Torps GALLENTE POINT DEFENCE DRONES - Drones similar to the above that gun down Frigs & Torps CALDARI DEFENDER BATTERIES - Very rapid/multi firing Defender launchers Also another idea would be to make such mods self tracking with A.I such as f.o.f missiles, where you activate them and they auto fire on anything within 20km to save locks etc... I think these type of mods would stop MANY of the people who are upset being disgruntled about the new changes Please reply to the post if you think these are good ideas, keep the post bumped so it doesn't fall to the back of oblivion never to be seen by CCP again!!! Ant Why adding this? You only have to undo missile changes. Every Tier II BS can hold at least 2 launchers. Dominix and Armageddon are the only 2 BS which cannot hold launcher, but both have a large Drone Space (Geddon can hold 10 Heavy drones, Dominix has largest BS Drone Space in game), so every BS could have a good defense against friggs. But first all cry for missile nerf, now they want to include new Anti-Frigate-Weapon. Let the game like it is atm, BS has to fit some small weapon and can use drones against friggs, that has to be enough. hes a dummy, he wants his bs to take out frigs with ease. If this was to be implemented everyone would fly around in bs's.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:03:00 - [60] Light Drones simply do not bite it atm imho, any half decent pilot can sort a few drones out, i mean anything over lights and a AB sorts them out too... Small weapons? yup i can fit 2 on my ship at best if i still want to break tanks in under 3 hours.. and 2 simply do not cut it either

Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:06:00 - [61] Looks like kitty boy here lost it to too many Bs's in his ikle expensive tech 2 friggy and had to get mommy to get her credit card out to buy him some more off e-bay. i don't wish to hear your insults mate, i could sit here in a slagging match all day, pitty some of the eve community would rather de-generate then make a better community... u don't like my suggestions? fair enough. you don't like them and feel the NEED to insult?? sod off
FireFoxx80	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:19:00 - [62] I think the point is this: Battleships are not the be-all and end-all ships they used to be, quite rightly so. It is no longer a case of saving up 200m ISK, buying a Raven, and being invincible on level4 missions; in under a month's worth of gameplay. Just like a frigate can not solo destroy a battleship, the same is now said for the other way around. People adapt. ex P-TMC If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:28:00 - [63] Originally by: FireFoxx80 I think the point is this: Battleships are not the be-all and end-all ships they used to be, quite rightly so. It is no longer a case of saving up 200m ISK, buying a Raven, and being invincible on level4 missions; in under a month's worth of gameplay. Just like a frigate can not solo destroy a battleship, the same is now said for the other way around. People adapt. Exactly Raven now requires as many skill points to fly as turret ship. Get those missle skills as high as Turret pilots soloing lvl 4's and put as much effort in to you setup and you should have no problems with them either. Secret Anit Frig [I win button] shhhhh 1 x large nos 1 x web 1 x target painter 1 x (any large weapon you want) "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Destroyer Draxx	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:29:00 - [64] Originally by: j0sephine "Absolutely not, that would be overpowered. I'm talking about a weapon which, taking skills into account, has a range that tops out at 10-15km... that's what point defence means to me. It has the signature resolution of a small gun, double the damage of a 200mm autocannon AT THE MOST, and costs enough grid that its fitting has to be justified by the BS pilot. 1800mw or so." Isn't that pretty much replacing the destroyer with a specialized battleship weapon(s), so the user can take the advantage of extra armour and cap the battleship can offer..? (although admittedly it'd look cool...) Which reminds me can destroyers actually kill ceptors or assaults? I doupt that. So in order to be fair I would suggest nerfing all frigs . After all Balance > Realism (This goes out to my favorite alt spamming all over the forums, Dark something). If how ever u want to go for realism, point defence ships should have been out a long time ago. My opinion is that heavies need a bit of boost (exposion radius) and everything will be k. BSs get a so n so effective waepon against frigs n frigs are not instantly killed. Part of the problem is that most BS pilots want a frig killin button and frig pilots want a huge floating target unable of retaliatory action. The other part is that CCP propably wont do anything about the problem so get used to it. Well perhaps they ll fix broken skills that dont work and when next patch comes they will "fix" something else that was "broken", ppl will post in the forums complaining n all over again. "fix" does not refer to any ingame alliance ;P It refers to causing more inbalances in an attempt to fix one. Got to give them credit for trying. So Far So Good....So What
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:30:00 - [65] Originally by: FireFoxx80 I think the point is this: Battleships are not the be-all and end-all ships they used to be, quite rightly so. It is no longer a case of saving up 200m ISK, buying a Raven, and being invincible on level4 missions; in under a month's worth of gameplay. Just like a frigate can not solo destroy a battleship, the same is now said for the other way around. People adapt. I agree totally bud, Battleships did need nerfing. i remember before even turrets had tracking speed and all other ships where made useless! it was atrocious... I just dont want to see frigates become the most feared ship a BS can come across!! don't seem right to me! its not a frigs guns i fear its the fact they ca n WD/WEB and sit back for tea and cakes whilst his bud comes along. I know Noz are an option, most people like to remind me but i think CCP need veriety...
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:31:00 - [66] Originally by: Antdung Originally by: Cetshwayo Yes...make BSs the "omgwtficankillanythingbuttonwithoutsupport!!1" again Actually you have made me think deeply... and i now agree. We should keep Eve unrealistic like it is now... and my 120 million isk battleship should have very little defence against you 150k frigate... fit some smartbombs, and some smaller guns then to hit the smaller targets --- Tell people something they know already, and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new, and they will hate you for it. - George Monbiot
PsyBoRG	Posted - 2005.07.11 13:52:00 - [67] bad idea imo fair enough for the gunning of torp's maybe but im sure caldari users would hate this frigs have a hard enough time holding up vs a bs allready ever tried nos+drones so if they implement this it should do the same damage same tracking and range as a standard frig gun which seems rather pointless to me anyway there is no reason to give ppl a over powered frig weapon bs's are not a flying fortress of pwn all and most will stop whining about the changes when they notice that other bs's wont hit frigs either oh and also my bs has 2 slots with out large turrets which i somehow still manage to pop frigs and ceptors with this idea is a little like saying lets give frigs 5000 more armor tbh just fly a mixed fleet instead of taking 30 bs's http://www.snigg.cjb.net/
Quanova	Posted - 2005.07.11 14:12:00 - [68] Originally by: Peri Stark ... It's like someone throwing a truck at a person standing a mile away. That person takes 2 steps to the side and it misses. He is not going to stand there and watch it arc toward him and not move. ... Now come on, a truck would still hit that person cause the size of the truck is much bigger than the two steps taken aside. And throwing a six-pack -your equivalent of small sized ammo- would have a much smaller change to hit because of its smaller size. Please don't try to explain the game mechanics by physics, it won't work all too well. A large part of EVE's combat mechanics is unrealistic because it needs to be 'balanced'. The true argument is (or should be) what the content of the idea 'balanced' constitutes.
Loka	Posted - 2005.07.11 14:17:00 - [69] There is no point in "Anti" Frig pointdefense or something like this. Why? 2 Frigs wont attack a BS and succeed, a swarm of frigs will. A larger gang of Frigs will normaly target jam you to the moon and back. Without lock the best anti Frigweapon will be void. So where is the point? If they dont targetjam you, Webber/Neut/Targetpainter + Drones will kill anything smaller than a cruiser in few seconds. heavy Drones + Webber/Targetpainter are killing any NPC frig also, so no new super Anti-Frig weapon will be needed. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.07.11 14:18:00 - [70] Just a point : On the test server I soloed a mates Raven in my Hawk. It took a while, but wasn't nearly as hard as I would have thought. The Raven had Cruise, Assault, and heavy launchers, as well as 2 425 turrets. There were also 6 medium drones. The Raven ran out of light missiles before starting on the cruise. The turrets were a joke, once I was in orbit they couldn't hit me, or only hit once in a blue moon. Now I personally LIKE the fact that the Raven couldn't instapop me, or realistically kill me. I popped the drones in 2 salvos of light missiles. The problem I have is that a lone frigate shouldn't be able to realistically kill a battleship within an hour. Why? Raven: Length - 900m Mass - 110,000,000 kg Hawk: Length - 85m Mass - 2,250,000 kg At 10 times the lenghth and almost 50 times the mass of a frigate......it shouldn't be possible. You can stutter and make dericisive comments about fitting but quite simply frigate damage should be reduced vs something that is 50 times as massive. A lone battleship should not pwn a frigate, nor should a lone claw be hitting a BS for 150 or wreckings of up to to 400. Battleships to kill battleships, or frigates/destroyers to kill friggies and dessies, unless one group massively outnumbers another. For example, before the patch I heard about a group of 8 or so frigs attacking things in my area. So I tanked my scorp all to heck and found them. Unfortunately, there were like 16 to 20. But because of my tanking, it took them almost 8 or so minutes to kill me. It was a WICKED battle, and no, there is no way in hell I should have won. But I actually felt that I was in a battleship and the fight was epic because it took so long for me to die when the frigs were doing 10 to 15 damage against me. I want all my battles to be this epic. Frigs to tackle all ships, but need other frigs to kill them. Battleships to kill Battleships, unless severly outnumbered (ie 6-8 cruisers or 18 frigs) Cruisers to provide special abilities (like the BB, Celestis) and be the middle ground. Nyxus

Loka	Posted - 2005.07.11 14:23:00 - [71] Well i killed a Harpy under 1 min in my Blasterthron. Just fit 1 Webber and a targetpainter and watch him sink, once i get some distance. Lets say more then 5km . And i had only Tech 1 stuff fitted btw. If your Raven friend would have fitted heavy NOS in high instead of 425mm iam sure, you wouldnt have succeeded. So probably bad setup? _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
Nev Amati	Posted - 2005.07.11 14:38:00 - [72] If you want to parallel our current military technology, and Ibis with a nuclear weapon should be able to take out a 200 ship blob.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.07.11 15:01:00 - [73] Originally by: Nev Amati If you want to parallel our current military technology, and Ibis with a nuclear weapon should be able to take out a 200 ship blob. Much of the blast of a nuke requires an atmosphere to be effective (there will still be a blast in space, just only a few hundred meters or so - as far as its own matter will go before becoming too diffuse to have any real effect) the radiation from it would kill everything within a few kilometers though (Assuming they weren't already heavily shielded vs it anyway) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Antdung	Posted - 2005.07.11 20:13:00 - [74] Originally by: Nyxus Just a point : On the test server I soloed a mates Raven in my Hawk. It took a while, but wasn't nearly as hard as I would have thought. The Raven had Cruise, Assault, and heavy launchers, as well as 2 425 turrets. There were also 6 medium drones. The Raven ran out of light missiles before starting on the cruise. The turrets were a joke, once I was in orbit they couldn't hit me, or only hit once in a blue moon. Now I personally LIKE the fact that the Raven couldn't instapop me, or realistically kill me. I popped the drones in 2 salvos of light missiles. The problem I have is that a lone frigate shouldn't be able to realistically kill a battleship within an hour. Why? Raven: Length - 900m Mass - 110,000,000 kg Hawk: Length - 85m Mass - 2,250,000 kg At 10 times the lenghth and almost 50 times the mass of a frigate......it shouldn't be possible. You can stutter and make dericisive comments about fitting but quite simply frigate damage should be reduced vs something that is 50 times as massive. A lone battleship should not pwn a frigate, nor should a lone claw be hitting a BS for 150 or wreckings of up to to 400. Battleships to kill battleships, or frigates/destroyers to kill friggies and dessies, unless one group massively outnumbers another. For example, before the patch I heard about a group of 8 or so frigs attacking things in my area. So I tanked my scorp all to heck and found them. Unfortunately, there were like 16 to 20. But because of my tanking, it took them almost 8 or so minutes to kill me. It was a WICKED battle, and no, there is no way in hell I should have won. But I actually felt that I was in a battleship and the fight was epic because it took so long for me to die when the frigs were doing 10 to 15 damage against me. I want all my battles to be this epic. Frigs to tackle all ships, but need other frigs to kill them. Battleships to kill Battleships, unless severly outnumbered (ie 6-8 cruisers or 18 frigs) Cruisers to provide special abilities (like the BB, Celestis) and be the middle ground. Nyxus I do have to say this is a far better suggestion then my original point-defence, i agree, if there are reductions in damage for large weapons toards smaller ships, surely there should be a reduction in damage for Smaller guns to bigger ships, i mean i can do a LOT of damage to a BS in a harpy with all damage mods & tracking comps with T2 Light neutrons


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