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The gap between Industrials and Freighters

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SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:45:00 - [91] I feel fairly mixed on this issue tbh. There should be a large gap between the ships designed for large corps and those for individual players. When titans are introduced, probably with 100mil m3 capacity, people again will yell. What about the midsized corps? What will they use to fill the gap between the small corps that can afford a freighter but cant afford the titan. There is also the problem that people become complacent with what they have and then they demand more. During beta, there were no indys available at all and it was a godsend when we got them. Now people demand more and more. In 6 mths even freighters will no longer be sufficent for peoples needs as outposts and dreads become more common. In order for CCP to preserve their rarity, there has to be a tremendous gap. I'm not sure whether the cutoff has to be, but there has to be one.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:51:00 - [93] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:54:00 - [96] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? Read the post above. Also, the removal of instajumps would have the biggest impact on my alts profitability, and yet I still argue against them. Unlike you I argue for a better Eve, even when that will directly nerf my playstyle. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:54:00 - [97] Hmmm, 2 years into the game and people are asking what T5 expanders will be like. I wonder what the heck Jove indys/interceptors/battleships/battlecruisers/dreadnoughts will be like .... -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:55:00 - [98] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 19:55:36 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? Sorry, you want to remove a perfectly valid, and to some people enjoyable and challenging occupation from the game so that you can move stuff around easier. Nerf Eve to suit you? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:56:00 - [99] Originally by: Avon To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:57:00 - [100] Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:57:00 - [101] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? Read the post above. Also, the removal of instajumps would have the biggest impact on my alts profitability, and yet I still argue against them. Unlike you I argue for a better Eve, even when that will directly nerf my playstyle. So what if some people get rich doing trade? Isn't that the point of doing it? Light Freighters would have far more positive impact than negative. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 19:55:36 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? Sorry, you want to remove a perfectly valid, and to some people enjoyable and challenging occupation from the game so that you can move stuff around easier. Nerf Eve to suit you? Why not come up with a better argument than 'I'll say nerf me to keep Eve good'. Provide REAL CONCRETE reasons or don't bother posting in the discussion, because you aren't contributing to it for or against. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:59:00 - [103] There could possibly be a trickle effect that CCP is trying to avoid. With light freighters -> freighters get built faster->dreads get built faster -> outposts get built faster possibly making them as common as battleships which they said they are trying to avoid at all costs.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:01:00 - [105] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi So what if some people get rich doing trade? Isn't that the point of doing it? Light Freighters would have far more positive impact than negative. I disagree. Trading is already at the very limit of balance, light frieghters would push it way over, a 400% increase in profitability. We go back to the lvl4 mission problem, only with vastly more earning potential and even less risk. No, it is something that Eve as a whole could do without - and if that makes it hard on people who want a compromise ship, well, sorry. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:01:00 - [106] Originally by: SengH There could possibly be a trickle effect that CCP is trying to avoid. With light freighters -> freighters get built faster->dreads get built faster -> outposts get built faster possibly making them as common as battleships which they said they are trying to avoid at all costs. That is a valid point, but technically a Freighter could do that too. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. You just don't read the stuff you don't like, do you .. hang on... (profit would be too high with 100,000m3 ships)If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? (a 100,000m3 ship) Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. (If they don't get a 100,000m3 ship they can't go on as they do now - new content becomes required just to stay level) ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi What changes to trade could fix it? Not introducing a 100,000m3 ship stops you from having to fix it. It isn't broken yet. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [109] What changes to trade could fix it? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [110] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Personally I don't trade like this. I'm a ship builder and I sure could use a larger hauler mainly for moving ore from belt to station and minerals a few jumps from station to factory. I have no need for a freighter to do this (not that I could any way). It isn't a nerf, it's "balancing". As this game is ever changing, balance is an on-going project.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:07:00 - [111] Originally by: Uncle George Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Personally I don't trade like this. I'm a ship builder and I sure could use a larger hauler mainly for moving ore from belt to station and minerals a few jumps from station to factory. I have no need for a freighter to do this (not that I could any way). It isn't a nerf, it's "balancing". As this game is ever changing, balance is an on-going project. Use more than one hauler? Haul more often? Move you factory? Mine in the system your factory is in? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:08:00 - [112] I see. 0.0 npc hunting is broken, take out Battleships. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. yeah, i'm trying to re-read through two pages of posts, insults, and defensiveness. i understand what everyone is saying. or i'm trying to get it all together... but, if 100,000m3 is 1mil/minute, then we already have ~40,000m3; or .4mil/minute. it's not THAT big of a gap. i, or anyone, can't possibly predict what an effect a 100,000m3 indy would have. but it cannot be hugely detrimental. or, maybe it will... but what about a 60,000m3 hauler? or one that doesn't need too many expensive expanders to get close to that figure. maybe it will help deflate the whacked-out prices the rare expanders have jumped to lately. or maybe people don't see expanders prices as being inflated? i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see. 0.0 npc hunting is broken, take out Battleships. Ah, but it isn't, is it? However, if someone asked for a ship between a BS and a dread that could down an entire 0.0 BS spawn in only 1/4 of the time it may become broken. Is the solution then to reduce the bounties of the npc's and make loot drops less valuable, or to not introduce the ship. If you introduce the ship everyone needs to get one to maintain their income level - anyone who can only fly a BS is nerfed. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:17:00 - [115] I want to hear what some other traders think. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:18:00 - [116] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I want to hear what some other traders think. lol, me too. I want to see who has the balls to argue against earning 60mil per hour .. I must be mad ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:18:00 - [117] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi So your arguement is that Freighters are too good for trade runs, and that Indies are not good enough, thus its balanced. Simply not allow Light Freighters to do them then...but that would be silly. Why not just not introduce them and save all the problems? Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:19:00 - [118] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:19:00 - [119] Tyeoretically you could make that much...but how many hours would that last? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:20:00 - [120] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Tyeoretically you could make that much...but how many hours would that last? Until I got bored or fell asleep. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.

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