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The gap between Industrials and Freighters

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flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:22:00 - [121] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:23:00 - [122] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? You pulled the 40mil figure out of your arse flummox dear boy. Sure you can do it once or twice, but you can sustain around 20. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:24:00 - [123] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. You still have no concrete evidence against it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:25:00 - [124] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. You still have no concrete evidence against it. Well, that would be impossible until they were introduced, and by then it would be too late. We'll just have to make do with extrapolating what exists and a bit of basic maths. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:29:00 - [125] How about more than just 'it's possible'? I know how a Light Freighter would improve my Eve existance, how would it improve yours? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:30:00 - [126] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 20:24:20 Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? You pulled the 40mil figure out of your arse flummox dear boy. Sure you can do it once or twice, but you can sustain around 15. i think both figures are out of our asses. and you stated you can sustain your 60mil/hour indefinitely. so i see no reason why 40 wouldn't be possible. you still have not even recognized that i'm not exactly asking for 100,000m3 cargo. i'm not 'asking' for anything. simply discussing... there are other numbers between 40,000 and 100,000m3... ... bring me my cheese...
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:32:00 - [127] Edited by: SengH on 12/07/2005 20:32:45 the thing you guys are forgetting are that freighters have NO slots. anything in between that range with low slots using cargo expanders would intrude on freighter range cargo.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:33:00 - [128] Originally by: flummox i think both figures are out of our asses. and you stated you can sustain your 60mil/hour indefinitely. so i see no reason why 40 wouldn't be possible. No, I said with a 100,000m3 ship I could sustain 60mil per hour. This is based on the fact that with a ship just under 25,000m3 I can currently earn a fraction over 1mil (with maxed trade skills which are vital to this) every 4 minutes. My figure is is a direct extrapolation of the system as it stands. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:34:00 - [129] Avons calculation is bollox. 60 million per hour - he's based that on the assumption of 1 million per minute for an hour (ie. just multiplied by 60!). Thats a bit simplistic. Your trade route won't last that long anyway due to price fluctuations, so you'll have to have another and maybe another after that. Not counting any other players who have found those trade routes also.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:54:00 - [130] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 20:55:01 Originally by: Uncle George Moreover, you accuse other people of acting in their own interests when having a view on this change or that, but are you not merely against any new industrial in YOUR own interests, seeing as how you seem to enjoy the trade routes yourself. I want a new industrial to help me out with production. I HATE ROES. Quite the opposite, I'd love them, they'd be great for my alt. So are instajumps, but I argue against them too. Oh, and sorry to dissapoint you, but your roes comment is way off beam .. they are exactly the sort of route I have no interest in. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:55:00 - [131] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon My figure is is a direct extrapolation of the system as it stands. great. so you seem to think that 100,000m3 is unbalanced. i think you've stated that for 3 pages now. care to address the other things people have said? want to open your eyes to something other than your one statement about 1mil/minute? perhaps these questions: what mil-per-minute do you THINK is the top amount and unbalanced? is that figure cross-referenced with mission runners? is it compared to cost/time to be in a position to make that amount in missions vs. cost/time to train up the skills for an iteron5 and 5 of the best expanders? is the time to find an agent that gives those rewards balanced vs the time to find good trade routes? i have noticed throughout EVE history that the trade routs seem to be the best kept secret of those who find them. maybe this is just your attempt to keep other out of this 'profession'. which is understandable, i'll give you that. since missions is totally anyone's game. from my experience, trade seems to take a lot more effort than mission grinding. in fact, no one has ever uttered 'trade routes' and 'grinding' together. it takes dedication to find good trade routes. maybe you think a mid-level indy would take a lot of the work out of it and water it down for the people who have been doing it a long time. has anyone else come to the conclusion that a freighter will make a magickal 10mil/minute! 600mil/hour... I think you are still missing my point flummox, it isn't about what I want. If there was a 100,000m3 indy I'd buy one and buy battleships every 2 hours - that suits me just fine. I'd love it. Hell, I'd have stacks of them... ...until more and more people can do it and the prices for battleships goes up, and up, and up. I won't care, I can still afford them ... but what about those people who can't? Hell, I'll be able to replace ships solo faster then 0.0 mining teams. Cooooool. i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:56:00 - [132] Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:56:00 - [133] Originally by: Chaimera Edited by: Chaimera on 12/07/2005 20:51:05 Edited by: Chaimera on 12/07/2005 20:49:49 If you introduce a new light freighter into the market, who will you market the current freighters to? If current indys with 25km3 of cargo room satisfy 98% of eve's population, you only have 2% left, and I'm quite sure 100m3 of cargo room will satisfy 75% of the people tho think current indys are too small. That leaves you only 0.5% of eve's population to market freighters to. That would totally waste the ~6billion investment quite a few people in eve just made in freighter and capital component bpos. You could possibly offset this a bit by making light freighter also require capital components to build. This however would still possibly wreck the market for freighters just not the capital components. The demand for capital components would go up but freighters would be a highly specialized market with the only barrier of entry being getting 1.7bil for the freighter bpo. It would possibly result in some cut-throat pricing, even with the long build times they currentley have. Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:57:00 - [134] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:58:00 - [135] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? Well, surprising though it may seem, what people want isn't always what is best for the game as a whole. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:59:00 - [136] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:00:00 - [137] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:01:00 - [138] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. Wrong, every time the price was reduced they were all bought up and sold at a higher price. Trust me. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:01:00 - [139] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? Well, surprising though it may seem, what people want isn't always what is best for the game as a whole. You say that a lot, but still have yet to back it with anything substantial. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. Wrong, every time the price was reduced they were all bought up and sold at a higher price. Trust me. I would call that good business. Set a trend and people will follow it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:04:00 - [141] Edited by: Uncle George on 12/07/2005 21:06:07 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. CCP like specialisation, SO SPECIALISE THE HAULERS (burp)
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:07:00 - [142] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:08:00 - [143] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. it would probably be similar to the people who cannot afford a freighter. we are talking middle ground. or even 'just slightly above low ground'... oh i don't know anymore... i'd be happy with contending "tier 5" haulers for races other than gallente and amarr actually... there are, or were, many unbalanced things in this game. to worry that this will make trade routes the new uber thing like mission farming seems a little fickle. hey, maybe 'mid-level' is too much then. so what about the proverbial Badger Mark 5 ? or even an Iteron8 ? or something slightly better than what we have now. sure, it's just a symptom of 'i want more', as Golden Ratio pointed out. but that's the way humans are. any change will make the system evolve. that cannot be helped. maybe these are like the 'uhauls' of the real world. something bigger than a truck, but not as big as say, a friggin' 18 wheel truck. something the 'less-skilled' can use to try and offset the gap. ... bring me my cheese...
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:10:00 - [144] or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:11:00 - [145] Originally by: flummox or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... I think you just want a way to make it easier for people to bring you your cheese. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:17:00 - [146] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... an ore munching ship would be pretty neat, i suppose. but, above 'tier 5' would be better. my use wouldn't only be for mining... p.s. i lose my iteron5 today with 150+mils in expanders. all money and costs aside, it's gonna take me all day just to fly around and collect the expanders to get my style back. i'm just THINKING that it would be nice to NOT have to fly all over creation checking prices and buying expanders. some ship that i can fly to ONE or maybe TWO systems and get a decently larger cargo for a slightly higher price. i would welcome a 150mil ship that i could slap a few expander I's on and have somewhere in the ballpark of 25,000m3... just to offset all this damn travel time to simply get my status-quo back... ... bring me my cheese...
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:19:00 - [147] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... I think you just want a way to make it easier for people to bring you your cheese. guilty as charged... ... bring me my cheese...
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:25:00 - [148] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... Avon, I'm hauling my minerals to the factory in order to build stuff. If I already had the minerals AT the factory in order to "compress" them, I would have already hauled them. The "refining in belt" idea is cool - but I tend to mine in systems with a refinery at 50%. I'm not talking 0.0 bistot, crokite, ark 6 jumps from station here, I'm talking bog standard low sec (0.1 - 0.2) low end mining.
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:53:00 - [149] Edited by: Selak Zorander on 12/07/2005 21:54:09 avon, the problem with your arguement is that not many people look at doing trade runs the way you do. Most people look at how much isk per meter cubed. some people do i would admit will look at them the way you do, but all trade runs have a limited number of items that you can buy. If you buy too many then the price skyrockets and that route is no longer profitable. Not sure how you buy your items, but if you only buy it by the indy load (not the max volume available, they you may not be buying enough often enough to raise the price significantly. If some much is bought like the entire order, that usually raises the price enough that there is almost no profit in buying that item from that location anymore. Then it takes atleast one down time (or more) for the price to come back down. I for one am a producer not a trade runner, and i need something bigger but dont need something the size of at freighter personally. something around 100k m3 would be fine for my needs. make it station to station only, make it slow (60-75 m/s base) i dont care. as for those that say that 98% of eve is happy with indys as they are, i doubt 98% of eve even reads these boards let alone actually posts on them. So there is no way that 98% are happywith industrials the way they are because i would wage at least 50% don't know this conversation is even taking place.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 22:41:00 - [150] There are many items where the maximum buy price is lower than the maximum sell price, and in high volumes. Sure you are only making a tiny margin, but with good trade skills it is still a profit. Couple that with supply and demand in the same system & a couple of instas and you are set. You can trade those small margins indefinately. Not profitable without the skills, but train up well, prepare well, research well and you will make lots of isk. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.

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