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The gap between Industrials and Freighters

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PiniclePanda	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:14:00 - [1] In the past, there was a gap, from frigate to cruiser, and cruiser to battleship. That gap has been filled, with battlecruisers, destroyers, and the goodies of tech 2. One no longer has to earn enough wealth to buy 10 cruisers, while still in one, to advance to the next stage of blowing things up. And I at least, thought that was good. We have freighters now. Yay! No longer are we limited to some 20k m3 (using multi digit million isk costing mods). But there's a gap, and a large one at that. Assuming a well kitted industrial costs about 10M (admittedly not top of the line, but high up there in terms of hauling capacity), then freighters are looking to cost at least 80 times the amount. There's no middle ground. I hope to eventually get my hands on one of those wonderful ships, but it's certainly not going to be any time soon, nor will it be through the labor of hauling for NPCs in an industrial. And in the meantime, I will still be limited to that industrial, and I'll still be wishing I could get my hands on something with larger capacity, even if it isn't a freighter. I doubt I'm the only person with this problem. Not everyone can afford a freighter, and considering that they're not complaining (or otherwise commenting) that they can't even afford an Iteron V, I'm guessing you'd please at least a few of them with something in the middle. So what are the options? * New tech 1 ships - something to industrials and battleships as battlecruisers are to cruisers and battleships. * Different tech 2 variants of industrials - something emphisizing capacity, rather than over armor. * Bigger and better cargo mods. * Modifying existing industrial capacities. Out of these, my vote would be for the first. What about yours?
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:33:00 - [2] I agree, there has to be some kind of freighter-like option that you can consider without being filthy rich or part of an alliance. Even though a lot of people here will claim that spending a billion on a ship is "easy" I don't agree, and I don't think the real majority of players would... Nobody needs as much cargo space a freighter offers except for alliances, however, a lot of people just need something slightly bigger then what indys offer. Especially anoying is the fact that the indy itself is practically worthless and the cargo expanders of a good hauler make up over 99% of its cost.
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:47:00 - [3] I disagree. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of ... wait... er.. I mean... it is pretty cool that there is such a large gap. And in all reality, an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. You only want some middle ground because "something better exists".... it is a plague humans suffer. Just because we dont have "the best" we feel we are getting cheated and our happiness is limited and therefore someone must step in and "make things right." Haulers were boosted by letting you haul ships, and making it so drones were much more haulable. Freighters server a completely different role, but if you have the patience, skill, knowledge, intelligence and determination to get one for yourself, more power to you, EH? ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Ticondrius	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:48:00 - [4] Edited by: Ticondrius on 11/07/2005 22:49:59 I'd like to see a container ship. It's small, looks like a Frigate, and as you attach more secure cans, it's mass increases, gets slower and so forth. Size is basically unlimited, but after X number of cans, it's engines won't have the power to really take much more, so there will be a point where it'll have so many cans it'd go 0m/sec. Perhaps using overdrives would give it the additional speed it'd need, or perhaps it could gain 10% more speed per level, essentially increasing it's light-load speed, and increasing it's maximum feasible capacity? Such a ship would be awesome for heavy miners as well, as they could open the cans while they're attached to the container ship. The only downside is the container ship pilot can't open cans "docked" on his own ship, making him strictly a transport pilot and unable to steal ore with the ship. "If I'm brutally honest and it offends you, that's not my fault."
Braaage	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:50:00 - [5] Indy -->> Transport ship -->> Freighter Freighters were designed for one purpose in mind and that's construction of platforms. No doubt they will get used as huge trade ships and huge empire to 0.0 haulers, but they aren't industrial ships meant for hauling ore from roid belts etc. ___________________________________________ http://www.eve-tutor.com Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.11 22:53:00 - [6] Quote: an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. Says who? Ever try to move 100 mill trit? ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:00:00 - [7] 1,000,000 - 32,000... that's still a big number. a big gap. and, although the Golden Ratio might have a valid point about the wants and needs of humans, i still feel that something along the lines of six figures would be a nice addition to our choices. it might be possible that it's simply my human limitations make me feel that i am... jaded and want a ship that can fill that gap. or, it could be that in all actuality, the indys of yesteryear just aren't good enough anymore. (and this has nothing to do with mining or the dreaded 'jetcans'.) but, just focusing on the indys of today: isn't it about time some minmatar or caldari engineer made SOMETHING to compete with the iteron5? tech1, ofcourse... ... bring me my cheese...
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Bhaal Ever try to move 100 mill trit? Originally by: Golden Ratio 98% Actually, I move 1,000,000 m3 of bistot/morphite every week or so. It's not so bad. ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:05:00 - [9] I agree with the OP. it wouldnt' hurt too badly to have an intermediate transport.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:06:00 - [10] What we need is a special mineral hauling class of industrials - perhaps with the special ship ability if you are hauling just minerals ie trit, nocx etc then their space requirements would be halved. So if hauling just minerals trit takes up 50% less space - something to do with special packing technology or something. This would allow this special class to haul minerals in larget amounts but stardard cargo would still take up as much space as it does now.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:08:00 - [11] Quote: Actually, I move 1,000,000 m3 of bistot/morphite every week or so. It's not so bad. Good for you, but with the increase in mins required for the new toys, I think a Teir 2 Indy is in order... It's been since release since hauler pilots have seen an affordile upgrade, combat pilots see these upgrades every patch just about... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Golden Ratio Originally by: Bhaal Ever try to move 100 mill trit? Originally by: Golden Ratio 98% Actually, I move 1,000,000 m3 of bistot/morphite every week or so. It's not so bad. ok. and you're posting in this thread because.................? ... bring me my cheese...
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:16:00 - [13] I'm with you guys. As an industrialist, I'm not seeing any improvement; I can't progress because I have nowhere to go. There are lots of us around and I think we should start giving CCP grief about it. Our problem is that in general we tend to be quieter (not me personally obviously) than the combat crowd. A Tech II Iteron V for example, double capacity - I can haul my stash from belt to station in 2 trips instead of 4. It will make me marginally more efficient (not hugely). So I don't think it's a biggee in terms of implementation and balance. GIVE US SOME ATTENTION CCP!
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:19:00 - [14] Originally by: flummox ok. and you're posting in this thread because.................? Originally by: Golden Ratio I disagree. It is pretty cool that there is such a large gap. And in all reality, an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. You only want some middle ground because "something better exists".... it is a plague humans suffer. Just because we dont have "the best" we feel we are getting cheated and our happiness is limited and therefore someone must step in and "make things right." Haulers were boosted by letting you haul ships, and making it so drones were much more haulable. Freighters server a completely different role, but if you have the patience, skill, knowledge, intelligence and determination to get one for yourself, more power to you, EH? Good enough for you? What, I cant have an opinion? Whats your point? ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Khargos	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Khargos on 11/07/2005 23:21:13 Originally by: flummox Originally by: Golden Ratio Originally by: Bhaal Ever try to move 100 mill trit? Originally by: Golden Ratio 98% Actually, I move 1,000,000 m3 of bistot/morphite every week or so. It's not so bad. ok. and you're posting in this thread because.................? he is posting because he cant stand to see the industry players' situation actually improving. he only wants changes that lead to combat pvp, hrrrr.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:23:00 - [16] We really need something between freighters and indys. My iteron mkv doesnt cut and freighters are WAAAYYYY to expensive. ------------------ [WTT: Vigilant]
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Golden Ratio Freighters server a completely different role, but if you have the patience, skill, knowledge, intelligence and determination to get one for yourself, more power to you, EH? Indeed, but freighters cannot be used for hauling ore from belt to station (for example). They are completely irrelevant to a miner, unless it's hauling minerals from A to B. Most miners tend to mine near their production center, so this isn't an issue for them either.
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:24:00 - [18] "Freighters server a completely different role..." Yep. ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:27:00 - [19] Quote: "Freighters server a completely different role..." Yep. Exactly, that's why new Indy's are needed... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Joram McRory	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:27:00 - [20] To my simple mind the obvious answer is the transport ship class. There are two types for each race: One a nifty blockade runner (I must get one of those); and the other a sort of slightly bigger, much slower, tanked sort of a ship with no specific role. Keep the blokade runner as it is and give the other one 100,000 m3 cargo space. To balance it out make it need transport ship lvl 4 or something??? What do you think?
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: "Freighters server a completely different role..." Yep. Exactly, that's why new Indy's are needed... That made no logical sense. So, using your argument, because the primasry role of dreadnaughts is to destroy structures, something in between battleship and dreadnaught is needed. BOW BEFORE MY FLAWLESS LOGIC! HOW CAN YOU DISAGREE? ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:48:00 - [22] Edited by: Bhaal on 11/07/2005 23:51:24 Quote: That made no logical sense. So, using your argument, because the primasry role of dreadnaughts is to destroy structures, something in between battleship and dreadnaught is needed. Uhm no, we are discussing haulers here... The indy's out there are the same ones from release, they don't cut it anymore. Many players thought Freighters were the answer, obviously they are not, and serve a different purpose, and serve a much smaller percentage of the EVE community than an upgraded Indy would... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.11 23:56:00 - [23] the space reducing minerals packing technology module sounds like a good idea (will allow you to haul more minerals while keeping the inudstrials for NPC goods trading and equip moving as well)
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:02:00 - [24] Originally by: sonofollo the space reducing minerals packing technology module sounds like a good idea (will allow you to haul more minerals while keeping the inudstrials for NPC goods trading and equip moving as well) I don't see the point of a "compression" module, we already have two of them (cargo expanders AND containers). Just release a friggin tech II indy and we are sorted.
Lythius Arcturnus	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:04:00 - [25] Edited by: Lythius Arcturnus on 12/07/2005 00:05:32 A 50kM3 would suit me pretty well, even if it was kind of expensive (30-50 millionish). Just so long as they didn't completley ruin its design by giving it 100 shield, 300 armor, and 200 structure. I don't need anything super tough, but just enough so that one armagaeddon setup to gank sitting at a gate can't take it out in 4 shots before it gets into warp. If 2 or 3 ships nail me working together, then hey, good job to them. Hauling anything anywhere in low sec space is TOUGH. I have gone through about 10 indies in the last 3 weeks. Of course you can mitigate some of the risks by getting scouts, escorts, or waiting till the right time to make your run. At current capacities though those things aren't worth it because your hauling such a limited amount. Why pay 10 mil to protect 20 mil worth of goods. Its just not worth it. Having more cargo space would make all the extra effort to secure your run more cost effective. With the current indy cargo capacities its just not worth it to pay a merc corp 10 mil to protect your run. With 50kM3 paying others to protect you becomes a much more viable option as you can get all your hauling done in 1/3-1/5 the amount of trips.
Researchette	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:14:00 - [26] Heres a few roles your Freighter can play: Carrying ships, equipment and resources to and from a POS, Outpost, Station. Doing multibillion ISK trade runs, Venal to Curse for example. Transferring ORE from substandard refining stations in deep space to closer, better ones. In my opinion, the Tech1 and Tech2 industrials are fine as they are. The freighter is for the serious corp hauler and will fill it's role nicely.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:24:00 - [27] Light Freighters ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Golden Ratio And in all reality, an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. wrong, next contestant.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Golden Ratio Originally by: flummox ok. and you're posting in this thread because.................? Originally by: Golden Ratio I disagree. It is pretty cool that there is such a large gap. And in all reality, an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. You only want some middle ground because "something better exists".... it is a plague humans suffer. Just because we dont have "the best" we feel we are getting cheated and our happiness is limited and therefore someone must step in and "make things right." Haulers were boosted by letting you haul ships, and making it so drones were much more haulable. Freighters server a completely different role, but if you have the patience, skill, knowledge, intelligence and determination to get one for yourself, more power to you, EH? Good enough for you? What, I cant have an opinion? Whats your point? well, my point wasn't about what you posted here at all. i added the stuff you typed into my post if you are interested. my comment was for that text alone. so, to answer your question, my problem is with you taking things out of context. yes, you are allowed an opinion. but it seems pretty stupid to shoot down other people just because you are satisfied. if you're satisfied, then why the pious comments here? for the purpose of this topic, your comments aren't needed at all. you say you're happy? well, ok. would you get upset if these mid-level ships were put in? no. you've already said you are fine. so, once again, i point out that your comments aren't needed for this discussion... ... bring me my cheese...
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.12 00:54:00 - [30] Because I am content with the current situation my comments are not needed? Ok, so you are one of these "THIS IS PROPOSED UBER IDEA AND IF YOU DISAGREE JUST DONT POST" people. You invalidate yourself when you do that. And concerning above, sure dreadnaughts are not freighters, but the analogy works perfectly. It should be easy to see. And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. As I said before, its just typical human nature to never be satisfied. ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 01:00:00 - [31] Until recently Freighters were going to be exactly what we are asking for, but then they were changed into Super Freighters. A more apt analogy than yours would be having a Wreathe, needing a Hoarder, but having to buy and train for an Iteron V, because there is no Mammoth. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 01:02:00 - [32] Hey, if a normal hauler is enough for you that's great, but what you said is that it works for everyone, which is simply not the case, otherwise this topic wouldn't even exist.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 01:05:00 - [33] Edited by: Bhaal on 12/07/2005 01:09:33 Edited by: Bhaal on 12/07/2005 01:05:31 Quote: And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. Because many are disappointed with freighters, they are not what most thought they would be... That's why. And larger capacity haulers have been needed for some time now. CCP decided to release the somewhat useless to the masses transport ships, and now freighters, unreachable by the masses. When new combat toys are released, they are much more attainable by the masses. I guess CCP devalues the industrialistÆs viewpoints in comparison to PvP'ers... They boned most industrialists' with the T2 transports, making the price not worth what you get. Now they bone them once again making Freighters only attainable by the very rich, and place them in a nich role. They filled in the gaps with destroyers & battlecruisers, you did not hear industrialsts' whine then, did you? I think it's time for you to shut up IMO... You are satisfied with status quo? Good for you, move along... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
PiniclePanda	Posted - 2005.07.12 01:15:00 - [34] Edited by: PiniclePanda on 12/07/2005 01:19:15 Edited by: PiniclePanda on 12/07/2005 01:18:20 Originally by: Golden Ratio I disagree. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of ... wait... er.. I mean... it is pretty cool that there is such a large gap. And in all reality, an iteron V solves 98% of all solo player and small/medium sized corps neeeds. In all reality, bikes could solve 98% of all transportation needs. That said, most people, here in the USA anyways, have cars. It's about efficency. Quote: You only want some middle ground because "something better exists".... I've been wanting something larger than my industrial ever since I hit the m3 limit when hauling long limbed roes. I was originally delighted when freighters were comming out, because I mistakenly thought they filled the role I envisioned, not just pawns in the support framework for building destroyers. Quote: it is a plague humans suffer. Just because we dont have "the best" we feel we are getting cheated and our happiness is limited and therefore someone must step in and "make things right." You misunderstand, sir. I don't feel cheated that I can't afford a freighter. Sure, I'd like one, but I'm not going to ** and moan about it in half a million threads just because I havn't earned the ISK for it. What irks me is that after the 10M or so mark, the price of every extra m3 starts to rise, and very steeply. I can't increase my investment without spending and arm and a leg, and for that investment, I might be able to fit an extra tootsie roll into my cargo hold. Obviously, the EVE world has the tech to build larger haulers. And, for the amount hauled, it can do so fairly affordibly - assuming a freighter costs 1B isk for 750k m3, that's 1333isk/m3. An unmodded iteron V @ gets ~1.5M isk for 6k m3, or ~250isk/m3. Introduce, say, something that can haul 100k m3, and I'd be quite willing to pay 1500isk/m3 (150M isk total) - more expensive than either the freighter or the industrial on a per m3 basis. Quote:** Freighters server a completely different role What are those roles? I'd say they're multi role, with one they both share in common being hauling tons of stuff from station A to station B.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 02:07:00 - [35] Originally by: PiniclePanda Introduce, say, something that can haul 100k m3, and I'd be quite willing to pay 1500isk/m3 (150M isk total) - more expensive than either the freighter or the industrial on a per m3 basis. Yup, exactly... What I envisioned freighters to be was the industrialists battleship, roughly 100-150 million ISK in price and a good step up from indys... Instead they are the industrialists dreadnaught
Chiralos	Posted - 2005.07.12 02:26:00 - [36] I'm in the "I can't afford a freighter" category, too. This is, however, a multiplayer game. Team up - get 5 people with 200 mil each, fly the thing round the clock and earn the cash to buy everyone a freighter. Yes trust is a problem ... but so is all your trade routes being sucked dry by dudes who can already afford a freighter and who have a couple of billion capital left over. I'm still about 8 weeks away from having the skills to fly a one, but I've got 100 mil now to buy shares in an Ammar freighter.
Bubba Fett	Posted - 2005.07.12 02:36:00 - [37] People that thing current indys are good enough just don't get it. Haulers have been stuck with the same ships since the game came out. Imagine how the combat pilots would complain if your ship choices were T1 frigates for under 500k or dreadnaughts for 2 billion. Haulers could say that there's no point to having destroyers, cruisers or BC's since they're just bigger frigates. There's no point to battleships because they're just little dreadnaughts. Would it still be a fun game? Combat pilots have lots of ships, so there's always something new for them to strive for. Even miners have ships ranging from frigates to cruisers to 3 different barges. If you're a hauler, once you get an it5, the next step up is 1000X as expensive. Doesn't that sound like a bit too much of a step? I topped out on hauling capacity a year and a half ago. For months freighters sounded like the next step, but now that's been taken away and there's nothing else on the horizon.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.12 02:46:00 - [38] If i remember correctly, there was a mention at some point of new "Freight" skills... they'd essentially increase the cargo capacity by something like 5% per level for certain kinds of goods (minerals/consumables/raw materials/whatever)
Plekto	Posted - 2005.07.12 02:47:00 - [39] What about a 200mil gutted battleship hull turned into a 100-200K transporter? It would be very expensive and probably quite slow, but it would fill the gap.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 03:59:00 - [40] The only question would be why a battleship without anything in it would be more expensive then one that carries a high powered weapons and defense grid...
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 04:16:00 - [41] Originally by: Golden Ratio Because I am content with the current situation my comments are not needed? Ok, so you are one of these "THIS IS PROPOSED UBER IDEA AND IF YOU DISAGREE JUST DONT POST" people. You invalidate yourself when you do that. And concerning above, sure dreadnaughts are not freighters, but the analogy works perfectly. It should be easy to see. And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. As I said before, its just typical human nature to never be satisfied. no, sir. i did not say anything like that. i never claimed this idea was 'uber' in any way, shape, or form. you are reading into it way too much and also putting 'words in my mouth'. THAT invalidates YOUR mental process... like i asked you before: what's the big deal with a mid-level indy to you? if YOU ARE HAPPY, then how will this hurt you?? why not just let the discussion happen (without naysaying from you) and be happy with our 'stupid little idea'?? in all honesty, it won't happen anytime soon. so no worries on your part... and, yes, your comments aren't needed. i know it's harsh. it's a harsh world. but, since this is a discussion about the idea of new mid-level indys, posts that simply state 'i am content' or put-down the ideas of others are NOT WELCOME. i can't possibly make it any clearer to you, sir... ... bring me my cheese...
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.07.12 04:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Light Freighters sounds good to me!
Tisti	Posted - 2005.07.12 04:17:00 - [43] The gap is a little smaller now.. http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/patchnotes.asp
Golden Ratio	Posted - 2005.07.12 07:14:00 - [44] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Golden Ratio Because I am content with the current situation my comments are not needed? Ok, so you are one of these "THIS IS PROPOSED UBER IDEA AND IF YOU DISAGREE JUST DONT POST" people. You invalidate yourself when you do that. And concerning above, sure dreadnaughts are not freighters, but the analogy works perfectly. It should be easy to see. And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. As I said before, its just typical human nature to never be satisfied. no, sir. i did not say anything like that. i never claimed this idea was 'uber' in any way, shape, or form. you are reading into it way too much and also putting 'words in my mouth'. THAT invalidates YOUR mental process... like i asked you before: what's the big deal with a mid-level indy to you? if YOU ARE HAPPY, then how will this hurt you?? why not just let the discussion happen (without naysaying from you) and be happy with our 'stupid little idea'?? in all honesty, it won't happen anytime soon. so no worries on your part... and, yes, your comments aren't needed. i know it's harsh. it's a harsh world. but, since this is a discussion about the idea of new mid-level indys, posts that simply state 'i am content' or put-down the ideas of others are NOT WELCOME. i can't possibly make it any clearer to you, sir... Wow. ---------------------------- The Golden Ratio has spoken.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 07:17:00 - [45] He's right you know. You may be satisfied taking 190 jumps to move stuff within a region...but many people aren't. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Hella May	Posted - 2005.07.12 07:26:00 - [46] Edited by: Hella May on 12/07/2005 07:26:53 Originally by: Golden Ratio Originally by: flummox Originally by: Golden Ratio Because I am content with the current situation my comments are not needed? Ok, so you are one of these "THIS IS PROPOSED UBER IDEA AND IF YOU DISAGREE JUST DONT POST" people. You invalidate yourself when you do that. And concerning above, sure dreadnaughts are not freighters, but the analogy works perfectly. It should be easy to see. And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. As I said before, its just typical human nature to never be satisfied. no, sir. i did not say anything like that. i never claimed this idea was 'uber' in any way, shape, or form. you are reading into it way too much and also putting 'words in my mouth'. THAT invalidates YOUR mental process... like i asked you before: what's the big deal with a mid-level indy to you? if YOU ARE HAPPY, then how will this hurt you?? why not just let the discussion happen (without naysaying from you) and be happy with our 'stupid little idea'?? in all honesty, it won't happen anytime soon. so no worries on your part... and, yes, your comments aren't needed. i know it's harsh. it's a harsh world. but, since this is a discussion about the idea of new mid-level indys, posts that simply state 'i am content' or put-down the ideas of others are NOT WELCOME. i can't possibly make it any clearer to you, sir... Wow. I vote Flummox and Golden Ratio just sleep with each other and get it out of their systems...... Let's get this straight, if a girl has to be "rescued" 10 times a week from a brothel shes not a damsel but a prostitute.
Baldour Ngarr	Posted - 2005.07.12 08:08:00 - [47] Originally by: flummox and, yes, your comments aren't needed. i know it's harsh. it's a harsh world. but, since this is a discussion about the idea of new mid-level indys, posts that simply state 'i am content' or put-down the ideas of others are NOT WELCOME. In which case, it isn't a discussion. It's you saying "this is how things should be" and nobody being allowed to disagree with you. _______ "Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age."
Joram McRory	Posted - 2005.07.12 08:23:00 - [48] So, rather than bite each others throats out, what do you think about using the "spare" transport ship as the light freighter?
hired goon	Posted - 2005.07.12 08:43:00 - [49] An Iteron V will never be "enough" as long as it can't haul everything any player has in his hanger. Dreadnaughts will never be enough unless they can tank 10 bs and kill a POS. POS will never be good enough until they are invinsible. Any insta-bm replacement will never be good enough unless it makes you invincible and gives you superfast travel. Of course everyone wants everything and wants it the best, don't consider balance. Freighters are supposed to be for alliances and big industrial corps only. Just like battleships were initially supposed to be for big corps only. If you want one shut up and train for it / earn it because nothing's stopping you. If you don't want to waste the time / money - don't. I don't think something to fill in the gap is really needed. It will simply replace all industrial ships instantly. Like the rediculously-named Golden Ratio says - haulers have already been boosted by stuff being made smaller. ------------ We come in peace. And tanks.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 08:47:00 - [50] How would a ship that operates under the same rules as a regular freighter replace industrials? Not to mention still not being a cakewalk to acquire. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Golden Ratio And to the people acting like I'm crazy for saying that current haulers do the job just fine, if its so obvious that some new hauling ships must be added into the game, why was this not an issue untill a few days ago? I'll tel lyou why, becasue now that someone will have the potential to have a ship that hauls more than yours, you feel you need something which gives you all the cargo space you could possibly ever use, but cheap enough to afford individually. No, it's because people had thought that freighters were going to fill the gap they see, and are coming to realise that it won't. They didn't complain before because we had the promise that the uber-hauling freighter was coming along to solve all our ills. Lets use a road haulage analogy. If the freighter is an articulated lorry, then current industrials are an estate car. Is it really that hard to see that a transit van would be quite a useful addition to the fleet? Originally by: Golden Ratio As I said before, its just typical human nature to never be satisfied. It's also human nature to find genuine problems and want to fix them. Originally by: Golden Ratio Originally by: Bhaal Quote: "Freighters server a completely different role..." Yep. Exactly, that's why new Indy's are needed... That made no logical sense. So, using your argument, because the primasry role of dreadnaughts is to destroy structures, something in between battleship and dreadnaught is needed. BOW BEFORE MY FLAWLESS LOGIC! HOW CAN YOU DISAGREE? Actually, I'll take your logic on for this one - the logic of how you extrapolated your point from his. Or rather the lack of it. Freighters serve the role of capital-scale hauler. Industrials fill the role of small-scale hauler. Therefore there is the role of medium-scale hauler left vacant. Current industrials are like pocket hankerchiefs for even a small industrial operation. Sure, they can do what's required, with enough of them and enough runs. But then frigates can generally kill anything a cruiser can, if there's enough of them. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have cruisers. Your use of the dreadnaught in an attempt at an equivalent argument is flawed, simply for the reason that in the case of the dreadnaught, the roles below it are already filled. Dreadnaughts destroy structures, battleships destroy large ships, cruisers destroy medium ships, frigates destroy small ships. There's no role gap there, so the situations are not comparable. Try looking at it again assuming there were no battleships. Would you say something between a cruiser and a dreadnaught was needed then? Originally by: Golden Ratio Because I am content with the current situation my comments are not needed? Your comments would probably be better recieved with a little less philosophising, and a little more arguing within the game mechanics. Why would it be bad to introduce an intermediate tier? If intermediate tiers are bad, why don't we remove them from combat craft?
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:06:00 - [52] If larger variant indys were to appear my alt could make even more money than the stupid amounts it can now. For that reason I am against the change. If you don't limit peoples income in some way inflation gets worse. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Avon If larger variant indys were to appear my alt could make even more money than the stupid amounts it can now. For that reason I am against the change. If you don't limit peoples income in some way inflation gets worse. Make more money doing what? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:18:00 - [54] Originally by: hired goon An Iteron V will never be "enough" as long as it can't haul everything any player has in his hanger. Dreadnaughts will never be enough unless they can tank 10 bs and kill a POS. POS will never be good enough until they are invinsible. Any insta-bm replacement will never be good enough unless it makes you invincible and gives you superfast travel. Of course everyone wants everything and wants it the best, don't consider balance. Of course people will always want more than they have. If I'm in a frigate, I want a cruiser. Is that a good reason not to have cruisers? If I'm in a cruiser, I want a battleship. Is that a good reason not to have battleships? If I'm in a battleship, I want a dreadnaught. Is that a good reason not to have dreadnaughts? Was the fact that there were cruisers and battleships a good reason not to have the intermediate battlecruisers? How would you feel if the only combat ship options were a cruiser and a dreadnaught? Cause that's the equivalent to the options we have for haulers. Would you say that there was no need for something in the middle? Originally by: hired goon Freighters are supposed to be for alliances and big industrial corps only. Just like battleships were initially supposed to be for big corps only. If you want one shut up and train for it / earn it because nothing's stopping you. If you don't want to waste the time / money - don't. Freighters are for alliances and large corps, fine. Current industrials are for individuals. Why is it such a problem to have an option for a small corp to aim for? Originally by: hired goon I don't think something to fill in the gap is really needed. It will simply replace all industrial ships instantly. Like the rediculously-named Golden Ratio says - haulers have already been boosted by stuff being made smaller. Only certain classes of stuff have been made smaller - mostly stuff that was never hauled before anyway. Certainly nothing I have to haul day on day has got any smaller. An intermediate class of ship would only render the industrial obsolete if it was designed and balanced by an infant. Think "small freighter" rather than "large industrial" and it should become obvious how this can be achieved. Originally by: Avon If larger variant indys were to appear my alt could make even more money than the stupid amounts it can now. For that reason I am against the change. If you don't limit peoples income in some way inflation gets worse. Wow, what a great argument. It could be used to argue against the introduction of practically every ship above the noob ship, in fact anything new that might actually be worth having. I guess we should put Eve development in mothballs right now to stop any further inflation
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Matthew Wow, what a great argument. It could be used to argue against the introduction of practically every ship above the noob ship, in fact anything new that might actually be worth having. I guess we should put Eve development in mothballs right now to stop any further inflation I think you completely underestimate quite how valid that arguement is. With a 100,000m3 indy for example, I would earn over a million isk per minute, in safe empire space. Does that not sounds just a little unbalanced? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matthew Wow, what a great argument. It could be used to argue against the introduction of practically every ship above the noob ship, in fact anything new that might actually be worth having. I guess we should put Eve development in mothballs right now to stop any further inflation I think you completely underestimate quite how valid that arguement is. With a 100,000m3 indy for example, I would earn over a million isk per minute, in safe empire space. Does that not sounds just a little unbalanced? This particular balance argument is related only to trade goods. I have no problem with any such hauler being specific to ore or minerals for example.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 09:38:00 - [57] Originally by: Avon I think you completely underestimate quite how valid that arguement is. With a 100,000m3 indy for example, I would earn over a million isk per minute, in safe empire space. Does that not sounds just a little unbalanced? And how much would it be with a 100,000m3 freighter? Of course taking an Iteron V and just upping the cargo bay would be unbalanced. But it doesn't take a genius to see that that's not the only way of designing a hauler. How much could you make with something along the lines of the following: 100,000m3 100m/s base speed No slots
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:10:00 - [58] Originally by: lythos miralbar I believe the worry is that experienced players will make ridiculas amounts of isk with NPC buy orders. With 100's k of m2 of cargo space, trading npc orders in empire will become the new lvl4 missions (well worn risk vs reward argument anyone?) Now personally I couldnt care less as a pvp kinda person what haulers are in the game. And I suspect alot of people wouldnt either. However ther are quite a few people that would appreciate a bit of extra capacity. But how do you do it without making npc order trading THE way to make money? Introduce a range of "compression modules" that compress specific minerals. And of course a new skill The can have high fitting requirements and give teh haulers a fitting bonus for them just like cruise launchers on bombers and cloaks on coverts. Example :- "Tritanium Compressor" Compresses Tritanium to a fraction of its origional size using sub-space distrotion technologies. Skill at lvl1 reduces size of tritanium in hold by 50%, each skill level give a further 8% reduction. Do not allow stacking of the modules. That would just make mineral trading more profitable - it makes no difference at the end of the day. If I can earn a million isk per minute trading either minerals or npc goods what does it matter to me which I do? It still means I can put more assets on the battlefield, and that is where it effects people like you. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Avon Same, over one million per minute. Base speed 10m/s One million per minute. Base speed 1000000000m/s One million per minute. Cargo capacity is the limiting factor, not speed - instas have seen to that. Very well then. Lets add something else to the equation: Warp speed: 0.5AU/s. There's more than one tool in place to slow a ship down if necessary, and not all can be insta'd around. Originally by: Avon No, the difference between indys and frieghters needs to be large - crossover of their roles is minimal as it stands, and that is probably for the best. Crossover is less than minimal - there's a gaping chasm between them right now.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Avon Same, over one million per minute. Base speed 10m/s One million per minute. Base speed 1000000000m/s One million per minute. Cargo capacity is the limiting factor, not speed - instas have seen to that. Very well then. Lets add something else to the equation: Warp speed: 0.5AU/s. There's more than one tool in place to slow a ship down if necessary, and not all can be insta'd around. Right now I can make 1mil every 4 minutes without leaving a system. Warp speed is not a major factor. Quote: Originally by: Avon No, the difference between indys and frieghters needs to be large - crossover of their roles is minimal as it stands, and that is probably for the best. Crossover is less than minimal - there's a gaping chasm between them right now. As it should be. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:46:00 - [61] Originally by: Avon Right now I can make 1mil every 4 minutes without leaving a system. Warp speed is not a major factor. So you do that in an industrial that tops out at 4.5AU/s? You really think that dropping to a top of 0.5AU/s isn't going to make a difference? Unless you're trading within the same station, you still have to warp around. You sure it's not going to affect you when that short hop of 30AU between stations takes at least 60 seconds? Originally by: Avon Quote: Crossover is less than minimal - there's a gaping chasm between them right now. As it should be. Your opinion. I disagree. Oh, here's another question. Do you consider the way you make money right now to be balanced? After all, you're using this one application of a ship to argue against that ship's existence. So is the problem the ship, or the application. When the dual-mwd cruisers were zipping around being so powerful, maybe we should have argued for the removal of cruisers instead of the dual-mwd. After all, in that application, cruisers were overpowered. NPC trades really need some serious work doing on them from the sound of it.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:47:00 - [62] Quote: Right now I can make 1mil every 4 minutes without leaving a system. Warp speed is not a major factor. For how long? A freighter will be able to dry that trade toute up in one run... So what if a new Indy allows you to make 2mill every 4 minutes until the trade route is dry for they day? ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Right now I can make 1mil every 4 minutes without leaving a system. Warp speed is not a major factor. For how long? A freighter will be able to dry that trade toute up in one run... So what if a new Indy allows you to make 2mill every 4 minutes until the trade route is dry for they day? You'd be surprised. Some trade runs can last a long time. A very long time. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:51:00 - [64] And they re-seed at set points in time. Larger cargo-hold also mean that if a run is found, it can be depleted in one go, removing the element of competition. [Come to Daddy]
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:53:00 - [65] I honestly do not think a 100,000m3 Indy is gonna cause rampant deflation as you guiys cliam... You're just using scare tactics to try and validate your points... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:56:00 - [66] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 10:57:31 Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 10:56:53 Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Avon Right now I can make 1mil every 4 minutes without leaving a system. Warp speed is not a major factor. So you do that in an industrial that tops out at 4.5AU/s? You really think that dropping to a top of 0.5AU/s isn't going to make a difference? Unless you're trading within the same station, you still have to warp around. You sure it's not going to affect you when that short hop of 30AU between stations takes at least 60 seconds? It takes longer to align each way than to travel, and the warp isn't even long enough to hit top speed. Quote: Originally by: Avon Quote: Crossover is less than minimal - there's a gaping chasm between them right now. As it should be. Your opinion. I disagree. Oh, here's another question. Do you consider the way you make money right now to be balanced? After all, you're using this one application of a ship to argue against that ship's existence. So is the problem the ship, or the application. When the dual-mwd cruisers were zipping around being so powerful, maybe we should have argued for the removal of cruisers instead of the dual-mwd. After all, in that application, cruisers were overpowered. NPC trades really need some serious work doing on them from the sound of it. Why? Are you saying asteroids should be nerfed because mining barges have been introduced? Better ships mean better profit. You can't adjust the npc supply to moderate that, otherwise you make the better ship a requirement - nerfing the majority who don't have access. It is all about balance, and sometimes two extremes balance better without attempting to find a middle ground. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:56:00 - [67] Originally by: Avon You'd be surprised. Some trade runs can last a long time. A very long time. Then maybe some trade runs need fixing. Originally by: Discorporation And they re-seed at set points in time. Larger cargo-hold also mean that if a run is found, it can be depleted in one go, removing the element of competition. How is this any worse than the situation we currently see inside a complex? One person comes in and raids it, killing the boss, grabbing the good loot and getting a huge payoff in little time. That too removes all competition until the respawn.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Avon Why? Are you saying asteroids should be nerfed because mining barges have been introduced? Better ships mean better profit. You can't adjust the npc supply to moderate that, otherwise you make the better ship a requirement - nerfing the majority who don't have access. It is all about balance, and sometimes two extremes balance better without attempting to find a middle ground. No, I'm not saying asteroids should be nerfed because mining barges have been introduced. Better ships mean better profits? Isn't that exactly what you're describing happen as a reason not to introduce a better ship? Compare your income currently with mining - it's already out of whack without any new ships in the mix.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Matthew How is this any worse than the situation we currently see inside a complex? One person comes in and raids it, killing the boss, grabbing the good loot and getting a huge payoff in little time. That too removes all competition until the respawn. Complexes are meant for a single player (or group of players) to reap the rewards. Trade runs are not. [Come to Daddy]
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:10:00 - [70] Originally by: Matthew Better ships mean better profits? Isn't that exactly what you're describing happen as a reason not to introduce a better ship? Compare your income currently with mining - it's already out of whack without any new ships in the mix. Well, that is why I am arguing against a better ship - it would be great for me, but bad for the game. Is that so hard to understand? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:10:00 - [71] Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: Matthew How is this any worse than the situation we currently see inside a complex? One person comes in and raids it, killing the boss, grabbing the good loot and getting a huge payoff in little time. That too removes all competition until the respawn. Complexes are meant for a single player (or group of players) to reap the rewards. Trade runs are not. Why not? Why should trade be any less of a competitive activity than NPC'ing?
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:14:00 - [72] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matthew Better ships mean better profits? Isn't that exactly what you're describing happen as a reason not to introduce a better ship? Compare your income currently with mining - it's already out of whack without any new ships in the mix. Well, that is why I am arguing against a better ship - it would be great for me, but bad for the game. Is that so hard to understand? So you're saying that because the ship would push somethings that's already on the limits of credible balance over the line, that the ship would be the problem, not the bit that's already slightly out?
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:15:00 - [73] Originally by: Matthew Why not? Why should trade be any less of a competitive activity than NPC'ing? In NPC'ing, someone can steal your spawns, but there's still leftovers. Same with trade runs. But, since I'm crap at trading (apart from trading transcranials lol), I'll bow out and let competent people argue :\ [Come to Daddy]
Galk	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:35:00 - [74] Don't understand this one... Y'all talk about gap... do you people remember what it was like in 2003.. back when money making opertunity was low in the empire for most people... and the best thing they could do was strap 5 miner 1.. or varients on a thorax... with low end mineral prices being errr low..... Talk about gap... sure took effort and hardwork to get your first bs from a cruiser back then.... I see this situation being along simular lines... I want it now ect....... Hard work and effort boys and girls.. it will come, it allways does in the end Ofcourse i still think they should atleast release the cargo expander 2 now... that would bring the advancement your wanting, or should be intilted to.. as per the rest of the game thats had there t2 increases.... -------- "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:35:00 - [75] All the trading arguments are based on the assumption that you do nothing but trade - as always the problem is not the system itself but grindzombies who use the same way to make money so often that making it profitable for people who only want to do one or two traderuns (or missions) would hurt the game...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:36:00 - [76] Originally by: Matthew So you're saying that because the ship would push somethings that's already on the limits of credible balance over the line, that the ship would be the problem, not the bit that's already slightly out? Yes, that's what I am saying. It is like introducing a ship which can enter a level 4 mission, kill everything instantly and insta-scoop all the loot, and then to balance it, nerfing all the missions. It makes the new ship a requirement, and nerfs everyone who used to do the missions until they get that ship. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:51:00 - [77] Quote: Y'all talk about gap... do you people remember what it was like in 2003.. Yeah I do, we pretty much still have the same hauling capacity 2+ years later... A Teir 2 or T2 base 100,000 m3 indy will not kill trade. And if you're so worried about that, then make mining & trading versions, etc... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Countess Amarisa	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:25:00 - [78] We don't need a new indy, we don't need a mini freighter! CCP just need to release a new npc hull upgrade better that the 27,44% expender. One like 35% and most poeple will be happy... BUT most of reply here are jalous one or "i can't effort a freighter and those who have one will make more money than me!" Bou hou hou! Remember this : most poeple who can effort one have hard work on it, even if they win a bpo tech 2. So they deserve it. So do the same, make more isk, and buy one. That is the answer!
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:30:00 - [79] Edited by: Bhaal on 12/07/2005 12:31:04 I'd rather see a new ship class rather than a 50% ludicrous CE... T2 Hull mod should be 25% and usable on the T2 Indy only, etc... And so on up the Tech Ladder. What the hell are T5 hull mods gonna be??? It's just insane really... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa	Posted - 2005.07.12 13:17:00 - [80] Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 12/07/2005 13:23:43 Originally by: Braaage Indy -->> Transport ship -->> Freighter Freighters were designed for one purpose in mind and that's construction of platforms. No doubt they will get used as huge trade ships and huge empire to 0.0 haulers, but they aren't industrial ships meant for hauling ore from roid belts etc. Can you actually pilot a Transport Ship ? It doesn't fill any niche BETWEEN Indies and Freighters... they have their own niche, limited as it may be. Originally by: Countess Amarisa We don't need a new indy, we don't need a mini freighter! CCP just need to release a new npc hull upgrade better that the 27,44% expender. One like 35% and most poeple will be happy... BUT most of reply here are jalous one or "i can't effort a freighter and those who have one will make more money than me!" Bou hou hou! Remember this : most poeple who can effort one have hard work on it, even if they win a bpo tech 2. So they deserve it. So do the same, make more isk, and buy one. That is the answer! Actually I can afford a freighter, but I have absolutely NO use for a 750K m3 Cargo-hold... 75K to 100K however would be a nice go between and also makes lvl 4 Cargo-missions possible, since you can pick up and fly your cargo in one run instead of having to make the trip in 4 to 5 runs back and forth. No wonder all those agent runners are refusing all the hauling missions they get. It would actually make sense to make all the true freighters have around 1 mil m3 cargo space at Freighter 3 so they can bring a packaged Dreadnaught from >0.4 to 0.4 or lower so it may actually be used. For single corps the current freighter is overkill... and the IT5 is not large enough, even when you spend 300 mil worth for 5 Local Hull Cargo Expanders. Edited for the second line of discussion.
Galk	Posted - 2005.07.12 13:23:00 - [81] I think not... My point was progression, also i can't remember when they bought out the cargo bonus on haulers.. so ill have to take your word for it on 03 being the same Pretty obvious ccp have been holding back the expander 2.. i think now though for whatever reason.. it's time to see it arrive.. I honestly don't see the gap though.. i mean it took weeks for your average jock to get a bs back then given the way things were... no agents (or worth it anyway) and mineral prices being rock bottom, trit 1 isk ect... People, small or otherwise will get their frieghters, just not this week.. I want a dred.. but i know it's not happening anytime soon.... but it will... same thing -------- "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
Matthew	Posted - 2005.07.12 14:04:00 - [82] Originally by: Galk I want a dred.. but i know it's not happening anytime soon.... but it will... same thing No, it's not the same thing at all. Until you get that dread, you have battleships to use. There's no battleship-equivalent in the hauler tree. We have what equates to a cruiser-level and a capital-level hauling ship, with nothing in between.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 14:09:00 - [83] I don't think expander II's are going to make a huge difference here. I would rather pay 150 million for a capable hauler, than pay 150 million for modules on an existing hauler.
hired goon	Posted - 2005.07.12 15:04:00 - [84] I can't solo a 8/10 complex in my battleship. A dreadnought is overkill... let's introduce a new midway ship so I can do it in one run. With a new 100,000m3 hauler, nobody will use the old ones. ------------ We come in peace. And tanks.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 15:08:00 - [85] Quote: With a new 100,000m3 hauler, nobody will use the old ones. Does anyone use Bantam's anymore for mining? ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
PiniclePanda	Posted - 2005.07.12 17:34:00 - [86] Edited by: PiniclePanda on 12/07/2005 17:35:06 Originally by: hired goon With a new 100,000m3 hauler, nobody will use the old ones. By this logic, nobody will use a cruiser, with battleships existing. There wouldn't be as many industrials, but there would still be industrials: 1) Piloted by the newbies 2) Piloted to take advantage of low volume runs 3) Collecting low volume runs in one place to form a high volume run (promoting regional markets!!) Originally by: a few people This would screw over those who have purchaced Freighter BPOs Going on this logic, not introducing a ship that fills the middle niche would screw over everyone who's ready for something beyond their Iteron V, but can't afford the billion or so it takes to enter the freighter market. The chance that the freighter will actually gasp have competition is a risk that comes with purcasing such a BPO. Personally? I'd be fine with some middle ground. I don't need a new hauler NOW NOW NOW. Give the freighter producers some time to recoup their investment, sure. Just get an alternative on the TODO list, to be implemented within a few months, and I'd be happy enough to just wait for it. I can't speak for others here of course... Originally by: a few people This would ruin trade Fix the trade system then, rather than pull hauling down to the same level.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:18:00 - [87] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: flummox and, yes, your comments aren't needed. i know it's harsh. it's a harsh world. but, since this is a discussion about the idea of new mid-level indys, posts that simply state 'i am content' or put-down the ideas of others are NOT WELCOME. In which case, it isn't a discussion. It's you saying "this is how things should be" and nobody being allowed to disagree with you. again, i point out i stated 'discussion about mid-level indys'. are you putting words in my mouth, also? i thought i covered that... ... bring me my cheese...
Slovekki	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:22:00 - [88] The gap between Industrials and Freighters.. .. doesn't need to be filled. it would be a long time before i'd ever get my pod in one, but, I think it's fun to have content thats outta reach of the normal man. Such as life goes. ___________ I'll think of somethin funny later..
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:35:00 - [89] If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:41:00 - [90] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:45:00 - [91] I feel fairly mixed on this issue tbh. There should be a large gap between the ships designed for large corps and those for individual players. When titans are introduced, probably with 100mil m3 capacity, people again will yell. What about the midsized corps? What will they use to fill the gap between the small corps that can afford a freighter but cant afford the titan. There is also the problem that people become complacent with what they have and then they demand more. During beta, there were no indys available at all and it was a godsend when we got them. Now people demand more and more. In 6 mths even freighters will no longer be sufficent for peoples needs as outposts and dreads become more common. In order for CCP to preserve their rarity, there has to be a tremendous gap. I'm not sure whether the cutoff has to be, but there has to be one.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:48:00 - [92] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:51:00 - [93] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:54:00 - [96] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? Read the post above. Also, the removal of instajumps would have the biggest impact on my alts profitability, and yet I still argue against them. Unlike you I argue for a better Eve, even when that will directly nerf my playstyle. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:54:00 - [97] Hmmm, 2 years into the game and people are asking what T5 expanders will be like. I wonder what the heck Jove indys/interceptors/battleships/battlecruisers/dreadnoughts will be like .... -- Intergalactic Teeth Pullers "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:55:00 - [98] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 19:55:36 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? Sorry, you want to remove a perfectly valid, and to some people enjoyable and challenging occupation from the game so that you can move stuff around easier. Nerf Eve to suit you? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:56:00 - [99] Originally by: Avon To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:57:00 - [100] Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:57:00 - [101] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. Isn't that what you have been doing your entire participation in this discussion? Read the post above. Also, the removal of instajumps would have the biggest impact on my alts profitability, and yet I still argue against them. Unlike you I argue for a better Eve, even when that will directly nerf my playstyle. So what if some people get rich doing trade? Isn't that the point of doing it? Light Freighters would have far more positive impact than negative. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 19:55:36 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see, so because one thing having to do with npc crap is broken, everyone else has to buy a Freighter? Sorry, you want to remove a perfectly valid, and to some people enjoyable and challenging occupation from the game so that you can move stuff around easier. Nerf Eve to suit you? Why not come up with a better argument than 'I'll say nerf me to keep Eve good'. Provide REAL CONCRETE reasons or don't bother posting in the discussion, because you aren't contributing to it for or against. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 19:59:00 - [103] There could possibly be a trickle effect that CCP is trying to avoid. With light freighters -> freighters get built faster->dreads get built faster -> outposts get built faster possibly making them as common as battleships which they said they are trying to avoid at all costs.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:00:00 - [104] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:01:00 - [105] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi So what if some people get rich doing trade? Isn't that the point of doing it? Light Freighters would have far more positive impact than negative. I disagree. Trading is already at the very limit of balance, light frieghters would push it way over, a 400% increase in profitability. We go back to the lvl4 mission problem, only with vastly more earning potential and even less risk. No, it is something that Eve as a whole could do without - and if that makes it hard on people who want a compromise ship, well, sorry. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:01:00 - [106] Originally by: SengH There could possibly be a trickle effect that CCP is trying to avoid. With light freighters -> freighters get built faster->dreads get built faster -> outposts get built faster possibly making them as common as battleships which they said they are trying to avoid at all costs. That is a valid point, but technically a Freighter could do that too. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. You just don't read the stuff you don't like, do you .. hang on... (profit would be too high with 100,000m3 ships)If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? (a 100,000m3 ship) Why would it nerf people who don't have one? They simply go on as they do now. (If they don't get a 100,000m3 ship they can't go on as they do now - new content becomes required just to stay level) ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi What changes to trade could fix it? Not introducing a 100,000m3 ship stops you from having to fix it. It isn't broken yet. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [109] What changes to trade could fix it? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:05:00 - [110] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Personally I don't trade like this. I'm a ship builder and I sure could use a larger hauler mainly for moving ore from belt to station and minerals a few jumps from station to factory. I have no need for a freighter to do this (not that I could any way). It isn't a nerf, it's "balancing". As this game is ever changing, balance is an on-going project.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:07:00 - [111] Originally by: Uncle George Originally by: Avon Originally by: Uncle George People are at the moment able to make 1 million per jump (or minute, if it takes 60 seconds) by hauling trade goods in the right locations. They do this until the price is no longer advantageous and then move on. Making the hauler larger will not prevent the cap on the amount you can haul between any two given locations with a specific item. I can't see a reason not to introduce a much better hauler. If it's trade goods that worry you, then reduce the price differences between regions. But then you nerf all the people who don't have one? Making new content a requirement to continue at the same level is one of the most complained about things on the forum of recent times. Personally I don't trade like this. I'm a ship builder and I sure could use a larger hauler mainly for moving ore from belt to station and minerals a few jumps from station to factory. I have no need for a freighter to do this (not that I could any way). It isn't a nerf, it's "balancing". As this game is ever changing, balance is an on-going project. Use more than one hauler? Haul more often? Move you factory? Mine in the system your factory is in? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:08:00 - [112] I see. 0.0 npc hunting is broken, take out Battleships. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:09:00 - [113] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi If the main argument against Light Freighters is trade runs...then there is no argument against them. I don't give a damn about trade runs, I just need something that can relieve the utter boredom of insanely repetative cargo runs. OMG. Narrow-minded ego-centric reasoning 4tw. Don't worry about the game as a whole, just your little insignificant part in it. sighs this is where the discussion falls apart. way to go... I think you'll see it fell apart before my reply. To recap flummox, incase you missed it, my arguement goes like this: I have a trader alt. If a 100,000m3 ship is introduced I can make 1mil isk per minute. I think that is unbalancing and so think it is bad for the game, the ship imho should not be introduced. If I reasoned like Sobeseki I would beg for the ship and not care how it effected the game as a whole. yeah, i'm trying to re-read through two pages of posts, insults, and defensiveness. i understand what everyone is saying. or i'm trying to get it all together... but, if 100,000m3 is 1mil/minute, then we already have ~40,000m3; or .4mil/minute. it's not THAT big of a gap. i, or anyone, can't possibly predict what an effect a 100,000m3 indy would have. but it cannot be hugely detrimental. or, maybe it will... but what about a 60,000m3 hauler? or one that doesn't need too many expensive expanders to get close to that figure. maybe it will help deflate the whacked-out prices the rare expanders have jumped to lately. or maybe people don't see expanders prices as being inflated? i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:10:00 - [114] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I see. 0.0 npc hunting is broken, take out Battleships. Ah, but it isn't, is it? However, if someone asked for a ship between a BS and a dread that could down an entire 0.0 BS spawn in only 1/4 of the time it may become broken. Is the solution then to reduce the bounties of the npc's and make loot drops less valuable, or to not introduce the ship. If you introduce the ship everyone needs to get one to maintain their income level - anyone who can only fly a BS is nerfed. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:17:00 - [115] I want to hear what some other traders think. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:18:00 - [116] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi I want to hear what some other traders think. lol, me too. I want to see who has the balls to argue against earning 60mil per hour .. I must be mad ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:18:00 - [117] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi So your arguement is that Freighters are too good for trade runs, and that Indies are not good enough, thus its balanced. Simply not allow Light Freighters to do them then...but that would be silly. Why not just not introduce them and save all the problems? Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:19:00 - [118] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:19:00 - [119] Tyeoretically you could make that much...but how many hours would that last? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:20:00 - [120] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Tyeoretically you could make that much...but how many hours would that last? Until I got bored or fell asleep. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:22:00 - [121] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:23:00 - [122] Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? You pulled the 40mil figure out of your arse flummox dear boy. Sure you can do it once or twice, but you can sustain around 20. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:24:00 - [123] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. You still have no concrete evidence against it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:25:00 - [124] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Nerf everyone cause one small game mechanic is broken. Nice. No, they really can continue as they are, no nerf. Nice when someones arguement comes to bite them in the arse. You still have no concrete evidence against it. Well, that would be impossible until they were introduced, and by then it would be too late. We'll just have to make do with extrapolating what exists and a bit of basic maths. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:29:00 - [125] How about more than just 'it's possible'? I know how a Light Freighter would improve my Eve existance, how would it improve yours? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:30:00 - [126] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 20:24:20 Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i can't see all the possibilities that would arise from this. neither can anyone. but to simply shoot down someone's idea because you think they can't or refuse to see the bigger picture doesn't help things... I think is is quite obvious that 60mil an hour in empire space with no risk IS unbalanced. LvL4's were nerfed for much less. sure. but over what? the current is 40mils. besides, the new freighters cannot do anything but station-to-station or pos/outpost. why not introduce the reverse restriction to these? or something else? or a hefty price? or ice component costs? or something? to just say "no, it's not possible. makes an imbalance." isn't what a discussion should be. sure, 60mils/hour is unbalanced in empire. but is 40mils? is the 150mils+ cost to expand the hauler to that ability unbalanced? is the price and effort to get into a frieghter balanced? we don't even know that one yet, do we? You pulled the 40mil figure out of your arse flummox dear boy. Sure you can do it once or twice, but you can sustain around 15. i think both figures are out of our asses. and you stated you can sustain your 60mil/hour indefinitely. so i see no reason why 40 wouldn't be possible. you still have not even recognized that i'm not exactly asking for 100,000m3 cargo. i'm not 'asking' for anything. simply discussing... there are other numbers between 40,000 and 100,000m3... ... bring me my cheese...
SengH	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:32:00 - [127] Edited by: SengH on 12/07/2005 20:32:45 the thing you guys are forgetting are that freighters have NO slots. anything in between that range with low slots using cargo expanders would intrude on freighter range cargo.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:33:00 - [128] Originally by: flummox i think both figures are out of our asses. and you stated you can sustain your 60mil/hour indefinitely. so i see no reason why 40 wouldn't be possible. No, I said with a 100,000m3 ship I could sustain 60mil per hour. This is based on the fact that with a ship just under 25,000m3 I can currently earn a fraction over 1mil (with maxed trade skills which are vital to this) every 4 minutes. My figure is is a direct extrapolation of the system as it stands. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:34:00 - [129] Avons calculation is bollox. 60 million per hour - he's based that on the assumption of 1 million per minute for an hour (ie. just multiplied by 60!). Thats a bit simplistic. Your trade route won't last that long anyway due to price fluctuations, so you'll have to have another and maybe another after that. Not counting any other players who have found those trade routes also.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:54:00 - [130] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 20:55:01 Originally by: Uncle George Moreover, you accuse other people of acting in their own interests when having a view on this change or that, but are you not merely against any new industrial in YOUR own interests, seeing as how you seem to enjoy the trade routes yourself. I want a new industrial to help me out with production. I HATE ROES. Quite the opposite, I'd love them, they'd be great for my alt. So are instajumps, but I argue against them too. Oh, and sorry to dissapoint you, but your roes comment is way off beam .. they are exactly the sort of route I have no interest in. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:55:00 - [131] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox Originally by: Avon My figure is is a direct extrapolation of the system as it stands. great. so you seem to think that 100,000m3 is unbalanced. i think you've stated that for 3 pages now. care to address the other things people have said? want to open your eyes to something other than your one statement about 1mil/minute? perhaps these questions: what mil-per-minute do you THINK is the top amount and unbalanced? is that figure cross-referenced with mission runners? is it compared to cost/time to be in a position to make that amount in missions vs. cost/time to train up the skills for an iteron5 and 5 of the best expanders? is the time to find an agent that gives those rewards balanced vs the time to find good trade routes? i have noticed throughout EVE history that the trade routs seem to be the best kept secret of those who find them. maybe this is just your attempt to keep other out of this 'profession'. which is understandable, i'll give you that. since missions is totally anyone's game. from my experience, trade seems to take a lot more effort than mission grinding. in fact, no one has ever uttered 'trade routes' and 'grinding' together. it takes dedication to find good trade routes. maybe you think a mid-level indy would take a lot of the work out of it and water it down for the people who have been doing it a long time. has anyone else come to the conclusion that a freighter will make a magickal 10mil/minute! 600mil/hour... I think you are still missing my point flummox, it isn't about what I want. If there was a 100,000m3 indy I'd buy one and buy battleships every 2 hours - that suits me just fine. I'd love it. Hell, I'd have stacks of them... ...until more and more people can do it and the prices for battleships goes up, and up, and up. I won't care, I can still afford them ... but what about those people who can't? Hell, I'll be able to replace ships solo faster then 0.0 mining teams. Cooooool. i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:56:00 - [132] Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:56:00 - [133] Originally by: Chaimera Edited by: Chaimera on 12/07/2005 20:51:05 Edited by: Chaimera on 12/07/2005 20:49:49 If you introduce a new light freighter into the market, who will you market the current freighters to? If current indys with 25km3 of cargo room satisfy 98% of eve's population, you only have 2% left, and I'm quite sure 100m3 of cargo room will satisfy 75% of the people tho think current indys are too small. That leaves you only 0.5% of eve's population to market freighters to. That would totally waste the ~6billion investment quite a few people in eve just made in freighter and capital component bpos. You could possibly offset this a bit by making light freighter also require capital components to build. This however would still possibly wreck the market for freighters just not the capital components. The demand for capital components would go up but freighters would be a highly specialized market with the only barrier of entry being getting 1.7bil for the freighter bpo. It would possibly result in some cut-throat pricing, even with the long build times they currentley have. Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:57:00 - [134] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:58:00 - [135] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? Well, surprising though it may seem, what people want isn't always what is best for the game as a whole. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 20:59:00 - [136] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:00:00 - [137] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:01:00 - [138] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. Wrong, every time the price was reduced they were all bought up and sold at a higher price. Trust me. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:01:00 - [139] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Did you ask those people who have no other choice than to be satisfied if they were satisfied? Well, surprising though it may seem, what people want isn't always what is best for the game as a whole. You say that a lot, but still have yet to back it with anything substantial. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:03:00 - [140] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi That is a monopoly, it won't follow the rules of consumer driven marketing. Wrong, every time the price was reduced they were all bought up and sold at a higher price. Trust me. I would call that good business. Set a trend and people will follow it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:04:00 - [141] Edited by: Uncle George on 12/07/2005 21:06:07 Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Prices would go down chief. They are high right now because moving stuff around costs more than its worth. Nope, if prices went down the high earners would buy it up and resell. Cap II's anyone? Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. CCP like specialisation, SO SPECIALISE THE HAULERS (burp)
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:07:00 - [142] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:08:00 - [143] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox i'm missing your point solely because you keep talking about yourself... Grrrr... What about all the people who can't earn 60mil per hour? How do they buy stuff when the prices are driven up by those who do? They are the people I am defending, not me - I'd be one of the high earners. it would probably be similar to the people who cannot afford a freighter. we are talking middle ground. or even 'just slightly above low ground'... oh i don't know anymore... i'd be happy with contending "tier 5" haulers for races other than gallente and amarr actually... there are, or were, many unbalanced things in this game. to worry that this will make trade routes the new uber thing like mission farming seems a little fickle. hey, maybe 'mid-level' is too much then. so what about the proverbial Badger Mark 5 ? or even an Iteron8 ? or something slightly better than what we have now. sure, it's just a symptom of 'i want more', as Golden Ratio pointed out. but that's the way humans are. any change will make the system evolve. that cannot be helped. maybe these are like the 'uhauls' of the real world. something bigger than a truck, but not as big as say, a friggin' 18 wheel truck. something the 'less-skilled' can use to try and offset the gap. ... bring me my cheese...
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:10:00 - [144] or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... ... bring me my cheese...
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:11:00 - [145] Originally by: flummox or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... I think you just want a way to make it easier for people to bring you your cheese. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:17:00 - [146] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... an ore munching ship would be pretty neat, i suppose. but, above 'tier 5' would be better. my use wouldn't only be for mining... p.s. i lose my iteron5 today with 150+mils in expanders. all money and costs aside, it's gonna take me all day just to fly around and collect the expanders to get my style back. i'm just THINKING that it would be nice to NOT have to fly all over creation checking prices and buying expanders. some ship that i can fly to ONE or maybe TWO systems and get a decently larger cargo for a slightly higher price. i would welcome a 150mil ship that i could slap a few expander I's on and have somewhere in the ballpark of 25,000m3... just to offset all this damn travel time to simply get my status-quo back... ... bring me my cheese...
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:19:00 - [147] Originally by: Avon Originally by: flummox or, maybe there are people who don't want to do all this 'ice components' thing, but still want a little bit of extra cargo... I think you just want a way to make it easier for people to bring you your cheese. guilty as charged... ... bring me my cheese...
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:25:00 - [148] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 21:07:44 Originally by: Uncle George Okay Avon, please suggest some new content that will keep us industry types happy. Something new for mining or hauling that we could use. POS is a waste of time, freighters are for the big guys. My Iteron V skill has been sat on it's bottom for absolutely ages. I say once again: YES TO A NEW HAULER SPECIFICALLY FOR ORES OR MINERALS. I think you guys should get a nice refining ship that can munch your ore in the belts and spit out minerals - not as efficient as refining in a station ... but not so bad as to be pointless. Oh, you can already compress some minerals, but I'm sure you knew that anyway... Avon, I'm hauling my minerals to the factory in order to build stuff. If I already had the minerals AT the factory in order to "compress" them, I would have already hauled them. The "refining in belt" idea is cool - but I tend to mine in systems with a refinery at 50%. I'm not talking 0.0 bistot, crokite, ark 6 jumps from station here, I'm talking bog standard low sec (0.1 - 0.2) low end mining.
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2005.07.12 21:53:00 - [149] Edited by: Selak Zorander on 12/07/2005 21:54:09 avon, the problem with your arguement is that not many people look at doing trade runs the way you do. Most people look at how much isk per meter cubed. some people do i would admit will look at them the way you do, but all trade runs have a limited number of items that you can buy. If you buy too many then the price skyrockets and that route is no longer profitable. Not sure how you buy your items, but if you only buy it by the indy load (not the max volume available, they you may not be buying enough often enough to raise the price significantly. If some much is bought like the entire order, that usually raises the price enough that there is almost no profit in buying that item from that location anymore. Then it takes atleast one down time (or more) for the price to come back down. I for one am a producer not a trade runner, and i need something bigger but dont need something the size of at freighter personally. something around 100k m3 would be fine for my needs. make it station to station only, make it slow (60-75 m/s base) i dont care. as for those that say that 98% of eve is happy with indys as they are, i doubt 98% of eve even reads these boards let alone actually posts on them. So there is no way that 98% are happywith industrials the way they are because i would wage at least 50% don't know this conversation is even taking place.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 22:41:00 - [150] There are many items where the maximum buy price is lower than the maximum sell price, and in high volumes. Sure you are only making a tiny margin, but with good trade skills it is still a profit. Couple that with supply and demand in the same system & a couple of instas and you are set. You can trade those small margins indefinately. Not profitable without the skills, but train up well, prepare well, research well and you will make lots of isk. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.12 22:49:00 - [151] And there is something wrong with that? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.12 22:53:00 - [152] Originally by: Avon There are many items where the maximum buy price is lower than the maximum sell price, and in high volumes. Sure you are only making a tiny margin, but with good trade skills it is still a profit. Couple that with supply and demand in the same system & a couple of instas and you are set. You can trade those small margins indefinately. Not profitable without the skills, but train up well, prepare well, research well and you will make lots of isk. I'm going off-topic here (sorry), but do the skills really make that much difference? iirc, the only two skills to affect ISK are Accounting and Broker Relations? Accounting reduces transaction tax by approx. 0.05% per level (I think) - does that extra few percent make that much of a difference? --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.07.13 01:34:00 - [153] Think about this scenario....... Super rich alliance/corp/whatever buys a Dread and a freightor. Freightor loads up on goodies. Dread opens jumpgate to target system outside selling station. Freightor and Dread jump through. Contemplate making runs......with only one jump. Or getting all of thier friends doing the same thing with thier indies. Because it will happen. Count on it. Nyxus
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.13 04:43:00 - [154] But can a Dread jump more than just itself? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.13 07:07:00 - [155] Originally by: Vilserx Originally by: Avon There are many items where the maximum buy price is lower than the maximum sell price, and in high volumes. Sure you are only making a tiny margin, but with good trade skills it is still a profit. Couple that with supply and demand in the same system & a couple of instas and you are set. You can trade those small margins indefinately. Not profitable without the skills, but train up well, prepare well, research well and you will make lots of isk. I'm going off-topic here (sorry), but do the skills really make that much difference? iirc, the only two skills to affect ISK are Accounting and Broker Relations? Accounting reduces transaction tax by approx. 0.05% per level (I think) - does that extra few percent make that much of a difference? Well, for the runs I do they are almost a requirement. We are talking moderate values, low markup goods - because they actual trasnaction value is high the taxes are high, cutting deeply in to the profit margin. Imagine you have a trade run where you can buy 100mil worth of goods and sell for 102mil - all before taxes and broker fees. Most people couldn't make that run worth working, and so just ignore it. However, with good skills you can maximise the profit potential, and with a short run your isk/hr can be great. Without the skills you really need the high mark-up, low-ish volume runs, and there is where price fluctuations are most abundant. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.13 07:09:00 - [156] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And there is something wrong with that? No, but that is the system which could make me 60mil isk per hour. Like you say, there is nothing wrong with it as it stands. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.13 09:03:00 - [157] Well I dont buy it, I dont know enough about trading to belive you and what I do know contradicts you. Second opinion would be nice. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:25:00 - [158] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And there is something wrong with that? No, but that is the system which could make me 60mil isk per hour. Like you say, there is nothing wrong with it as it stands. If this is true... then maybe Indies are overpowered too, 60 mil hour is insane. Nerf indies... devide cargo-space by 10 to start with....
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:47:00 - [159] Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And there is something wrong with that? No, but that is the system which could make me 60mil isk per hour. Like you say, there is nothing wrong with it as it stands. If this is true... then maybe Indies are overpowered too, 60 mil hour is insane. Nerf indies... devide cargo-space by 10 to start with.... I think you misread it - 60mil per hour would be the earning potential of the 100,000m3 ship people are asking for. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:49:00 - [160] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Well I dont buy it, I dont know enough about trading to belive you and what I do know contradicts you. Second opinion would be nice. That is a classic. 'I don't know about this subject but you are wrong.' What do you base that conclusion on, fairy dust? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:54:00 - [161] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Well I dont buy it, I dont know enough about trading to belive you and what I do know contradicts you. Second opinion would be nice. That is a classic. 'I don't know about this subject but you are wrong.' What do you base that conclusion on, fairy dust? I've figured out what Avon was talking about...and yes, it works. There is zero risk, you make loads of money and it doesn't take huge amount of SP to do it (although obviously, to maximise profit you'd want a bigger hauler). A 100,000m3 would break the system. (Can't believe I just agreed with Avon ) --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.13 15:54:00 - [162] Originally by: Vilserx I've figured out what Avon was talking about...and yes, it works. There is zero risk, you make loads of money and it doesn't take huge amount of SP to do it (although obviously, to maximise profit you'd want a bigger hauler). A 100,000m3 would break the system. (Can't believe I just agreed with Avon ) Hmmmm... I want a cut. If it wasn't for my posts you would have never noticed this way to make isk. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.13 16:01:00 - [163] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Vilserx I've figured out what Avon was talking about...and yes, it works. There is zero risk, you make loads of money and it doesn't take huge amount of SP to do it (although obviously, to maximise profit you'd want a bigger hauler). A 100,000m3 would break the system. (Can't believe I just agreed with Avon ) Hmmmm... I want a cut. If it wasn't for my posts you would have never noticed this way to make isk. Well, I'm supporting your argument. There's your cut. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.13 18:21:00 - [164] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Well I dont buy it, I dont know enough about trading to belive you and what I do know contradicts you. Second opinion would be nice. That is a classic. 'I don't know about this subject but you are wrong.' What do you base that conclusion on, fairy dust? No, I said what I do know says you are wrong, but I don't know enough to prove my info wrong. I've never been interested in Trade much, so I base my info on people that are. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.13 18:26:00 - [165] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Well I dont buy it, I dont know enough about trading to belive you and what I do know contradicts you. Second opinion would be nice. That is a classic. 'I don't know about this subject but you are wrong.' What do you base that conclusion on, fairy dust? No, I said what I do know says you are wrong, but I don't know enough to prove my info wrong. I've never been interested in Trade much, so I base my info on people that are. Well, what do you know about trade that contradicts the argument? Then people can see if it can be proved wrong. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.13 21:01:00 - [166] Pretty much what other people are saying that you get diminishing returns as you buy out a resource and then sell it. It never seemed profitable on the large scale. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.13 21:04:00 - [167] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And there is something wrong with that? No, but that is the system which could make me 60mil isk per hour. Like you say, there is nothing wrong with it as it stands. If this is true... then maybe Indies are overpowered too, 60 mil hour is insane. Nerf indies... devide cargo-space by 10 to start with.... I think you misread it - 60mil per hour would be the earning potential of the 100,000m3 ship people are asking for. i sure hope you aren't lumping me in that group of 'people'... 8) ... bring me my cheese...
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.13 21:20:00 - [168] all i can say is if volumes and total trade ISK in all NPC industrial and consumer goods goes up - then that has to eb a good thing as CCP will see more players engaging in the trading aspect of the game and perhaps improve - expand and enhance it
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.13 22:16:00 - [169] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Pretty much what other people are saying that you get diminishing returns as you buy out a resource and then sell it. It never seemed profitable on the large scale. Ah. Thing is, at 100000m3, you're unlikely to be able to 'crash' the market so much that the sell price (that you buy at) is higher than the buy price (that you sell at). Assuming the 'start' profit margin per 1m3 item is 30isk, even at 10isk that's the 1m profit that's being thrown about here. Especially with low-volume, high quantity items, the NPC prices are unlikely to fluctuate enough. That said, I haven't actually ever bought 100000 items of the same commidity in the same station so I'm not 100% sure if what I have said above is true. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.13 22:59:00 - [170] So its as much speculation on that end as it is ours. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Brazero	Posted - 2005.07.13 23:55:00 - [171] Edited by: Brazero on 13/07/2005 23:58:42 Originally by: Joram McRory To my simple mind the obvious answer is the transport ship class. There are two types for each race: One a nifty blockade runner (I must get one of those); and the other a sort of slightly bigger, much slower, tanked sort of a ship with no specific role. Keep the blokade runner as it is and give the other one 100,000 m3 cargo space. To balance it out make it need transport ship lvl 4 or something??? What do you think? I agree, I bought an Impel and sold it after 2 days. Totally useless as an industrial ship. And far too expencive for a t2 showoff sitting in the hangar. Double or even triple the base cargo space and it can be of interest.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.14 07:45:00 - [172] Originally by: Brazero I agree, I bought an Impel and sold it after 2 days. Totally useless as an industrial ship. And far too expencive for a t2 showoff sitting in the hangar. Double or even triple the base cargo space and it can be of interest. I think you missed the point of that ship class entirely. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.07.14 09:23:00 - [173] Transport ships are excellent for their niches : Blockade running, 0.0 belt pickups and transporting and of course high value empire transporting. ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.14 11:59:00 - [174] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi So its as much speculation on that end as it is ours. Feel free to try and prove me wrong by buying up 100000m3 worth of goods and seeing if the market ever fluctuates that much. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Viggen	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:19:00 - [175] I think the amount of interest this post has produced suggests that a Dev response is overdue here.. lets hear there views. My views.. well I rekcon now the highways are dead transporting stuff around is a nightmare.. im no trader but if i needed to move home to another region it can take forever to haul all the bits and pieces you have stored in your hanger. A larger indy would be cool.
Embattle	Posted - 2005.07.16 10:56:00 - [176] Haven't read whole thread but they could give a boost to Transport ships so they can carry up to 50000m3....sorry if someone has already said it.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.16 11:07:00 - [177] well just to try it i built up 100k m3 of synthetic oil in gallente space. After u dump the first few orders at least for this good the price reaches the highest sellers lowest buyers point of around 292.00 ISK - profit margin drops to 0.05ISK per good. Though i did notice if u keep plumping it the mark then drops lower to 288.00 ISK buy / sell point with 0.05 in between. So dunno maybe with enough volumes u could push prices around quite a bit more. Its an area o the game where it has been neglected static volumes at specific stations as well as defined price ranges. No events or news items where supply is limited at a certain station and the first 100,000 m3 of goods delivered by all players will double youre income. That could be a randome thing to encourage more movement of goods aswell as profit hunters
Joram McRory	Posted - 2005.07.16 11:08:00 - [178] Originally by: Helmut 314 Transport ships are excellent for their niches : Blockade running, 0.0 belt pickups and transporting and of course high value empire transporting. The point I was making is that you don't need 2 ships per race for this. The blockade runner one is excellent in these roles, but the other one is wasted. So as, from the length of this thread, there is demand for a bigger indy. Use the other transport to fill this niche with 50K to 100K of cargo space.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.16 12:52:00 - [179] You are judging the need of a ship based on the length of a forum thread? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.16 14:52:00 - [180] Originally by: Avon You are judging the need of a ship based on the length of a forum thread? The length of the thread being mostly made up of people wanting them...I would say yes. One small issue with trade that sofar is only speculation, is no reason to keep them out. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.17 07:09:00 - [181] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon You are judging the need of a ship based on the length of a forum thread? The length of the thread being mostly made up of people wanting them...I would say yes. One small issue with trade that sofar is only speculation, is no reason to keep them out. Count up the posts, subtract all posts not from unique individuals saying "please may I have a 100,000m3 indy?", divide figure by player base and multiply by 100. I think you'll see that only a miniscule fraction of the playerbase want these ships. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Joram McRory	Posted - 2005.07.17 12:20:00 - [182] Originally by: Avon Count up the posts, subtract all posts not from unique individuals saying "please may I have a 100,000m3 indy?", divide figure by player base and multiply by 100. I think you'll see that only a miniscule fraction of the playerbase want these ships. Flawed logic ^^. For that calculation to be meaningful you are assuming 100% of the player base read this thread and posted here if they agree with the idea. As these forums seem to be inhabited by only a couple of hundred people I think you are way out. If you want to come up with a percentage it would be better to count up the individuals in this thread who agree with the big hauler proposal, and express that as a percentage of the number of people who have posted here. I think that would be a more statistically valid methodology. Above you picked out my method for determining that there is a demand for this type of ship for critique, but didn't actually answer my point. Do you have a view on the niche for the 2nd "wasted" transport ship as it currently stands?
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.17 23:46:00 - [183] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon You are judging the need of a ship based on the length of a forum thread? The length of the thread being mostly made up of people wanting them...I would say yes. One small issue with trade that sofar is only speculation, is no reason to keep them out. Count up the posts, subtract all posts not from unique individuals saying "please may I have a 100,000m3 indy?", divide figure by player base and multiply by 100. I think you'll see that only a miniscule fraction of the playerbase want these ships. And you appose it for a reason that isn't even proven to work. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 00:30:00 - [184] Originally by: Joram McRory Originally by: Avon Count up the posts, subtract all posts not from unique individuals saying "please may I have a 100,000m3 indy?", divide figure by player base and multiply by 100. I think you'll see that only a miniscule fraction of the playerbase want these ships. Flawed logic ^^. For that calculation to be meaningful you are assuming 100% of the player base read this thread and posted here if they agree with the idea. As these forums seem to be inhabited by only a couple of hundred people I think you are way out. If you want to come up with a percentage it would be better to count up the individuals in this thread who agree with the big hauler proposal, and express that as a percentage of the number of people who have posted here. I think that would be a more statistically valid methodology. Above you picked out my method for determining that there is a demand for this type of ship for critique, but didn't actually answer my point. Do you have a view on the niche for the 2nd "wasted" transport ship as it currently stands? It was a cynical ploy to show the assumption that post count=demand was false in the first place. There are no wasted transport ships, both types fill seperate niches. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 00:31:00 - [185] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And you appose it for a reason that isn't even proven to work. I oppose it based on what I know of trading, a subject you have already confessed your ignorance of. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 00:54:00 - [186] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And you appose it for a reason that isn't even proven to work. I oppose it based on what I know of trading, a subject you have already confessed your ignorance of. Then enlighten me instead of saying 'I know it will be bad, you dont'. The pros vastly outnumber the cons from where I sit and nothing you have said changed it. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 02:05:00 - [187] Edited by: Bhaal on 18/07/2005 02:07:25 Quote: I think you missed the point of that ship class entirely. CCP's version of a T2 Indy is quite laughable. The blockade runners are somwhat of a joke IMO. They may be required in a very small minority of circumstances. However, a T2 Indy with 2X the base cargo capacity that of it's T1 counterpart would prove to be more useful to the community. They dropped the ball on Indy's... Took almost 2 years to release a T2 Indy, very small % of the EVE community like & use them, they are too expensive & somewhat useless to the normal hauler pilot. They release Freighters, even more expensive & out of reach, and released for a nich role. Yet again not very useful for the majority of haulers. CCP knows how to release ships of all kinds for fighting, yet they don't seem to have a clue when it comes to Mining, Hauling, and general Industrial professions. Either that, or they just don't give a flying ** about those professions, and deem them as a lower form of playstyle, therefore not requiring any real attention from the DEV team. They keep dropping the ball, and are making it quite evident they are somewhat anti-industrialists themselves... Who are the DEV's who work on the Industrial aspects of the game? Or maybe a better question would be, Are there any DEV's who concentrate solely on Industry? Or do the PvP DEV's *** & moan when they are forced to work on Industry content that one day out of evrey month, the last Friday of every month, ya know, when they leave early to go get drunk at the nearest PUB... Just my opinions... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 03:35:00 - [188] Well not even that Bhaal, with Transport Ships, all CCP did was make haulers more combat capable. not a bad thing of course, but totally not inline with how other tech 2 ships go. Tech 2 is supposed to do the job better than tech 1...Transport Ships are debatable, and rarely do anything to justify their cost. The Blockade Runners are fine, they do something universally useful. But the other one is what? Stronger and slower, sure its more resilient, but speed is everything. Mastodon seems more like a step back than a step forward. So when do we get a real hauling ship that isnt going to take a year+ to justify buying? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2005.07.18 04:08:00 - [189] Quote: Mastodon seems more like a step back than a step forward. You have got to be kidding Although of course we would have all loved an increased cargo capacity too ... MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 04:11:00 - [190] Originally by: MOOstradamus Quote: Mastodon seems more like a step back than a step forward. You have got to be kidding Although of course we would have all loved an increased cargo capacity too ... Industrials are haulers first, everything else second. The Mastodon is better in combat, but not hauling. We want a better hauling ship. I would settle for Light Freighters tbh, but I can see why miners want bigger indies. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 08:46:00 - [191] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Then enlighten me instead of saying 'I know it will be bad, you dont'. The pros vastly outnumber the cons from where I sit and nothing you have said changed it. I have given you my reason, but you have decided to ignore it. IMHO making 1millionISK per minute is unbalanced and game breaking. I am not in favour of nerfing the current traders so that some more advanced players can have a new toy. If the ship was released I would have one. I would use it to make oooooooooooooodles of isk. I would love it. But .. it is just plain wrong. If you have lots of stuff to haul, pay someone to do it. Or get friends to help. Or do lots of trips. The Eve economy is more important than your selfish wants. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Fortior	Posted - 2005.07.18 10:52:00 - [192] I always thought that Tech 2 didn't always mean a definite improvement over Tech 1. It seems more like a way to diversify ships in the galaxy. Logistics cruisers aren't exactly better than their Tech 1 counterparts in respect to combat, neither are the Stealth Bombers nor Covert Ops. Tech 2 just adds spicing, not a bigger steak. Speaking of which, time for lunch.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 10:59:00 - [193] Quote: Logistics cruisers aren't exactly better than their Tech 1 counterparts in respect to combat Yes, and they are about as useful as the T2 Indies as well... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Jade Nexia	Posted - 2005.07.18 11:59:00 - [194] Originally by: Avon IMHO making 1millionISK per minute is unbalanced and game breaking. Explain why? I'm doing it over two years now. Go into belt and kill some NPC BS viola! 1mil per minute but you need to wait till next spawn :) These NPC traders not doing 1mil per minute if you count all time spend to research and find route. FYI that trade route will vanish soon as they suplly demand and need to look for another one trade route. Don't count peek income you need count all time spend around.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 11:59:00 - [195] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi And you appose it for a reason that isn't even proven to work. I oppose it based on what I know of trading, a subject you have already confessed your ignorance of. Then enlighten me instead of saying 'I know it will be bad, you dont'. The pros vastly outnumber the cons from where I sit and nothing you have said changed it. There are plenty of 'pros' to a bigger indy, but the one massive con, that Avon mentioned, outweighs anything else as it breaks the game. Many people moaned and moaned about Lvl4 missions (pre-patch of course) as they gave 'far too much reward for too little risk.' A 100000m3 hauler would give even more reward for even less risk. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Jade Nexia	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:02:00 - [196] Originally by: Vilserx A 100000m3 hauler would give even more reward for even less risk. Sorry you know digly squad about hauler profesion, try move 100 000 cubic meters of stuff over 10 jumps then come back and start arguing :)
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:08:00 - [197] Quote: A 100000m3 hauler would give even more reward for even less risk. That's just trying to use scare-tactics because you disagree with the idea... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Jade Nexia	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:16:00 - [198] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Jade Nexia Originally by: Vilserx A 100000m3 hauler would give even more reward for even less risk. Sorry you know digly squad about hauler profesion, try move 100 000 cubic meters of stuff over 10 jumps then come back and start arguing :) Jade, with all due respect, you are wrong. Good trade routes don't involve 10 jumps, most of mine don't leave their respective systems. Marginal markup with minimal travel time. Some routes are still just profitable even when they buy price is at its highest, and the sell price is at its lowest. Even if you only pull in 3% profit, all you need is a big ship and a bit of capital, and you can make a constant income. The bigger the ship, the bigger the income. Where I did talk about trading? In this post is mentioned that haulers need more space between frieghter and industrials. Trading is side profesion and it is possible to adjust NPC market easilly, but game dosn't give any solution for haulers. Definetely EVE need two things better cargo or all items in game need to reduce in size. My primary concern is about haulers. NWO cold war will need haul a lot of low grade minerals and CCP doesn't give any mid solution for it. Even best MK5 can haul maximally 30 000 cubic meters, as proposed we need industrials with 100 000 cubic meters at least.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:17:00 - [199] Quote: Good trade routes don't involve 10 jumps, most of mine don't leave their respective systems. Marginal markup with minimal travel time. Yes, the old buy construction blocks in one station for 53 ISK, and sell them in the next station over for 80 ISK. Don't you think it's lame that a broken NPC trade system is your only argument against these new Indy's? What happens when T2 CE's come out, or hell T3's? You gonna demand that they nerf the attributes of all CE's in the game so that the latest tech of CE's does not allow for too much haulage? Give me a break... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:22:00 - [200] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Good trade routes don't involve 10 jumps, most of mine don't leave their respective systems. Marginal markup with minimal travel time. Yes, the old buy construction blocks in one station for 53 ISK, and sell them in the next station over for 80 ISK. Don't you think it's lame that a broken NPC trade system is your only argument against these new Indy's? What happens when T2 CE's come out, or hell T3's? You gonna demand that they nerf the attributes of all CE's in the game so that the latest tech of CE's does not allow for too much haulage? Give me a break... I'm not demanding anything Bhaal, I am just looking at the issue. Do you nerf a valid profession to allow people who want to haul stuff to be lazy? Do you let trading remain unchanged, letting people earn 60mil ISK per hour in safe space, so that lazy people can haul their stuff? Or, do you leave things as they are now, not nerfing anyone, and make the lazy people accept the fact that hauling their stuff takes time & effort, or isk? As I keep saying Bhaal, I'm all for 100,000m3 haulers. They'd let me buy myself a tier2 BS for just 2hrs effort. It would give me far more ability to blow stuff up, and I am all for that ... ... but is it what Eve needs? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:30:00 - [201] Quote: Do you nerf a valid profession to allow people who want to haul stuff to be lazy? If you can really make so much trading as you say you do, so easily, is it really a valid profession? Or is it a problem like Pre NWO lvl4 missions were deemed to be in the eyes of CCP DEV's? The increase in minerals required to build the NWO ships, demand a steady progression of all ships & modules required to support these efforts (mining & hauling), and future efforts for Titans & other capital ships. You can't leave IndyÆs the way they are forever and expect ppl to make 10X more 20 jump runs & be happy to pay the sub fee to keep doing that. All because an EVE profession is broke. They nerfed lvl4 missions, which many thought to be viable solo type EVE professions, I'm sure NPC trading can be looked at if it is indeed the only reason more useful Industrial ships cannot enter the EVE universe... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:39:00 - [202] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Do you nerf a valid profession to allow people who want to haul stuff to be lazy? If you can really make so much trading as you say you do, so easily, is it really a valid profession? Or is it a problem like Pre NWO lvl4 missions were deemed to be in the eyes of CCP DEV's? The increase in minerals required to build the NWO ships, demand a steady progression of all ships & modules required to support these efforts (mining & hauling), and future efforts for Titans & other capital ships. You can't leave Indy’s the way they are forever and expect ppl to make 10X more 20 jump runs & be happy to pay the sub fee to keep doing that. All because an EVE profession is broke. They nerfed lvl4 missions, which many thought to be viable solo type EVE professions, I'm sure NPC trading can be looked at if it is indeed the only reason more useful Industrial ships cannot enter the EVE universe... Again you miss the point. Trading isn't broken. The introduction of a 100,000m3 ship would break it. Do you a/ Break it anyway, then nerf the people without a 100,000m3 ship, thus making the new content a requirement just to stay level. or b/ Leave things as they are. ? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:43:00 - [203] Quote: Trading isn't broken. The introduction of a 100,000m3 ship would break it. Well, CCP has nerfed things in the past to introduce new content... Since when do they ever leave anything alone? Again, nothing but scare tactics... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:43:00 - [204] LOL avon is a rabid pirate and trades too? Must be an alt. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:46:00 - [205] Originally by: Derisor LOL avon is a rabid pirate and trades too? Must be an alt. If you bothered to read the thread you would know that I have a trading alt. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:47:00 - [206] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Derisor LOL avon is a rabid pirate and trades too? Must be an alt. If you bothered to read the thread you would know that I have a trading alt. Not willing to commit to being a full time pirate? Not willing to take the heat and the downsides for being a pirate? How weak. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:48:00 - [207] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Trading isn't broken. The introduction of a 100,000m3 ship would break it. Well, CCP has nerfed things in the past to introduce new content... Since when do they ever leave anything alone? Again, nothing but scare tactics... Bhaal, dismissing it as scare tactics does you no credit. Refute the points, don't dismiss them. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:49:00 - [208] Quote: Not willing to commit to being a full time pirate? Not willing to take the heat and the downsides for being a pirate? How weak. C'mon dude, most ppl in this game have different characters to play different roles... There is nothing wrong with that, it allows you to try different aspects of the game, as well as able to log on and play more because of bordom issues... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:50:00 - [209] Originally by: Derisor Originally by: Avon Originally by: Derisor LOL avon is a rabid pirate and trades too? Must be an alt. If you bothered to read the thread you would know that I have a trading alt. Not willing to commit to being a full time pirate? Not willing to take the heat and the downsides for being a pirate? How weak. I have to do something whilst I am at work ... and piracy on a laptop over a modem just isn't my idea of fun. :) ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:50:00 - [210] Avon: BTW if piracy is so good for the game and adds so much and if living in 0.0 is as easy as you say, what do you need with a trading alt? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:52:00 - [211] "Avon: BTW if piracy is so good for the game and adds so much and if living in 0.0 is as easy as you say, what do you need with a trading alt?" "Topic, mother*****, can you stay on it?" --;;;
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 12:54:00 - [212] Edited by: Avon on 18/07/2005 12:54:55 Originally by: Derisor Avon: BTW if piracy is so good for the game and adds so much and if living in 0.0 is as easy as you say, what do you need with a trading alt? Derisor. I pirate when I feel it will profit me. I move to 0.0 when I feel it will profit me. I trade when I feel it will profit me. These are all just tools in my box, and just a small selection of them. They are not my goals, they just help finance them. You keep concentrating on the small picture, leave the big game to the real players. At least I am able to comment on most aspects of eve from experience, unlike some I could mention* *Mining not included. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:00:00 - [213] Quote: *Mining not included. No wonder why you have no clue as to how beneficial a new hauling ship would be to so many players. It's not laziness; it's feelings of accomplishment/hr of EVE playtime. Looking at the 781 mill worth of minerals required to build a freighter, you better help out the miners & haulers, or you will drive the haulers & miners out there to start thinking of alternate careers, and the whole of EVE will suffer at the hands of an industrial collapse... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:04:00 - [214] Edited by: Avon on 18/07/2005 13:05:49 Originally by: Bhaal Quote: *Mining not included. No wonder why you have no clue as to how beneficial a new hauling ship would be to so many players. It's not laziness; it's feelings of accomplishment/hr of EVE playtime. Looking at the 781 mill worth of minerals required to build a freighter, you better help out the miners & haulers, or you will drive the haulers & miners out there to start thinking of alternate careers, and the whole of EVE will suffer at the hands of an industrial collapse... Read back Bhaal. I am not unsympathetic to the needs of miners. I suggested in this thread that a refining ship would be a useful addition. Make the yield slightly less than a station, and let it refine ore as people mine. Then the haulers only have to carry minerals, not ore - greatly improving their effective capacity. (If you are claiming an increased capacity need for the construction of capital ships, NEWS-FLASH, that is what frieghters are for!) ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:14:00 - [215] Edited by: Bhaal on 18/07/2005 13:15:47 Quote: Read back Bhaal. I am not unsympathetic to the needs of miners. I suggested in this thread that a refining ship would be a useful addition. Make the yield slightly less than a station, and let it refine ore as people mine. Then the haulers only have to cary minerals, not ore - greatly improving their effective capacity. I'm not opposed to a new class of Indy that can fit a mobile refinery module, and has a mineral hold as opposed to a drone bay. Ore goes into normal Indy sized cargo hold, mins come out of mobile refinery into mineral hold... However, with skills the refine efficiency should not be less than a station with maxed out skills & NPC standing. I guess it could even be coded that you cannot load minerals directly into the mineral hold, they can only come from the mobile refinery so as to squash attempts to trade minerals using this large hold from station to station. However, the facts are, minerals will indeed need to be moved from station to station. A reason in itself to have larger haulage capacity, so Freighters can be built. Chicken or the Egg, can't have a Freighter until you can get the mins there to build one... The logistics to get the mins to a Freighter factory without initially having a Freighter is quite the conundrum. Also the price tag on the Freighter is quite prohibitive for small corps anyways... I still say at some point in time, CCP will need to bridge the gap somewhat... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:18:00 - [216] "However, with skills the refine efficiency should not be less than a station with maxed out skills & NPC standing." If just skills would be enough to match maxed out efficiency of NPC station, it would then make these ships more effective than the NPC stations -- not only you wouldn't need to waste time on getting the NPC standings high enough, but you'd also save significant amount of time normally used on multiple trips needed to move ore to NPC station for refinement...
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:21:00 - [217] Quote: If just skills would be enough to match maxed out efficiency of NPC station, it would then make these ships more effective than the NPC stations -- not only you wouldn't need to waste time on getting the NPC standings high enough, but you'd also save significant amount of time normally used on multiple trips needed to move ore to NPC station for refinement... Right, I meant significantly less... i.e. I don't want to see a station giving a guy 99% refine, and the best he can do with his new ship with maxed out skills is 75%... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:24:00 - [218] "Right, I meant significantly less... i.e. I don't want to see a station giving a guy 99% refine, and the best he can do with his new ship with maxed out skills is 75%..." Well, 75% vs ~100% is hardly a 'penalty' ^^ I mean, if you have regular mining operation with 3 miners and one hauler, being able to turn that hauler into 4th miner results in equal efficiency like NPC station offers, without the repetitive jumps back and forth... it's still work reduction in comparison to current way of doing things, even though numbers would indicate differently at first glance.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:34:00 - [219] Quote: it's still work reduction in comparison to current way of doing things, even though numbers would indicate differently at first glance. Total efficiency/man hours is the key. You can't simply fluff it up and make it feel like less work because you have less hauling to do... You have to give true incentive, true bonuses to such a new ship class. We are after increased productivity to meet the mineral demands of these new ships... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:38:00 - [220] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: it's still work reduction in comparison to current way of doing things, even though numbers would indicate differently at first glance. Total efficiency/man hours is the key. You can't simply fluff it up and make it feel like less work because you have less hauling to do... You have to give true incentive, true bonuses to such a new ship class. We are after increased productivity to meet the mineral demands of these new ships... That would of course assume you want to make it easy to meet the mineral demands of these new ships. I'm not sure that is a desirable situation. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:39:00 - [221] "Total efficiency/man hours is the key. You can't simply fluff it up and make it feel like less work because you have less hauling to do..." Mhmm but it is less work. For one, you save all the work you'd need to do to raise your NPC standings... can spend all this time doing more mining, for example. That's quite an extra benefit. And #2, the example i gave was with 3:1 miner to hauler ratio. For less than 3 miners per one hauler, being able to get one extra miner instead of the hauler actually increases amount of minerals you can get in the same time, not just matches the best you'd get at NPC station.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:45:00 - [222] Quote: That would of course assume you want to make it easy to meet the mineral demands of these new ships. I'm not sure that is a desirable situation. I never said easy. What I don't want to see is this new ship efficiency=hauling to station & refining, due to the fact you can only get a certain % lower than an NPC station. They can't be a wash. There has to be a clear & definite advantage for those who have the new ships & skills. It can't simply be a replacement for less hauling to station... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:51:00 - [223] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: That would of course assume you want to make it easy to meet the mineral demands of these new ships. I'm not sure that is a desirable situation. I never said easy. What I don't want to see is this new ship efficiency=hauling to station & refining, due to the fact you can only get a certain % lower than an NPC station. They can't be a wash. There has to be a clear & definite advantage for those who have the new ships & skills. It can't simply be a replacement for less hauling to station... But you aren't thinking of the bigger picture Bhaal. Producing minerals where you mine has other advantages which could easily offset a 25% reduction in refine efficiency. Think how much more effective secure cans would be if you were storing minerals, not ore. What about mining in systems without stations? There are lots of other factors you have to consider before you dismiss a reduced output as a bad idea. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:51:00 - [224] "They can't be a wash. There has to be a clear & definite advantage for those who have the new ships & skills. It can't simply be a replacement for less hauling to station..." Well, considering how people *** and moan or plain refuse to mine when it involves more than a few jumps to the refining point... how the deep space refining platforms were introduced to game precisely because all of this **ing and moaning and due to number of roids left not mined... if removal of that apparently evil hauling is not good enough* bonus of new ships, i have no idea what to say. ;.;
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:58:00 - [225] Quote: There are lots of other factors you have to consider before you dismiss a reduced output as a bad idea. The whole point is increased output to support increased mineral demand. Would a PvP'er spend the money on a T2 frig if the damage output was the same as a T1? I'm not after just appearance of higher efficiency. Anyways, a lot in the game would have to change, as the current roid spawn system could not keep up. System roid belts & non-respawing natural resources, along with many of the other mining overhaul ideas proposed need to be seriously given some thought by CCP. The whole mineral aquisition system needs revamping IMO... For gameplay satisfaction, and game mechanics reasons... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 13:59:00 - [226] Bhall/anyone else: If CCP were to 'fix' NPC trading so to prevent mass-NPC trading with the new big indy then I'd be fine with it. However, if they do not change it, it would break trading IMO and that has to be bad. I'm not arguing against your needs for the indy - but just because you need it (for good reasons tbh) doesn't mean you can just ignore something else that will break because of it. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 14:00:00 - [227] Quote: Bhall/anyone else: If CCP were to 'fix' NPC trading so to prevent mass-NPC trading with the new big indy then I'd be fine with it. However, if they do not change it, it would break trading IMO and that has to be bad. I'm not arguing against your needs for the indy - but just because you need it (for good reasons tbh) doesn't mean you can just ignore something else that will break because of it. C'mon guys! CCP always has to tweak existing ** when the release new **! This is nothing new! ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 14:04:00 - [228] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Bhall/anyone else: If CCP were to 'fix' NPC trading so to prevent mass-NPC trading with the new big indy then I'd be fine with it. However, if they do not change it, it would break trading IMO and that has to be bad. I'm not arguing against your needs for the indy - but just because you need it (for good reasons tbh) doesn't mean you can just ignore something else that will break because of it. C'mon guys! CCP always has to tweak existing ** when the release new **! This is nothing new! Well, if they were to tweak trading then it's fine. I'm just saying that leaving the current NPC trading as it is and then introducing a new, larger indy, would break the system. Oh, and sorry for getting your name wrong --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 14:07:00 - [229] Quote: Oh, and sorry for getting your name wrong np, but you are already on my KOS list, sorry... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Jallianai Maya	Posted - 2005.07.18 18:59:00 - [230] yeas we need some thing between industrials and transport ships to frieghters
BoBoZoBo	Posted - 2005.07.18 19:58:00 - [231] Do we reallllly need a filler for every dam little thing? ========================= Operator 9
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 21:24:00 - [232] Quote: Do we reallllly need a filler for every dam little thing? In this case, absolutely... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 21:37:00 - [233] Look Avon, propose something constructive, simply saying it's bad because of an as of yet unproven trading advantage is not going to convince anyone that better haulers aren't wanted and needed. Nobody likes wasting time in this game, especially hauling, and even moreso when ou have to make the run 10 times. It's not about laziness, it's about efficiency. Current haulers are simply not efficient enough for current mining and current markets. It's pretty bad when a niche at best freighter comes along and everyone needs one, but they are too far up to justify getting one. Light Freighters and lvl 5 indies for each race would be a good first step. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 21:52:00 - [234] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Look Avon, propose something constructive, simply saying it's bad because of an as of yet unproven trading advantage is not going to convince anyone that better haulers aren't wanted and needed. It's not an advantage, it's a breaking over a system. More than 1m ISK per minute for no risk at all is overpowered. IMO, keeping the system in balance is more important than efficiency in hauling your minerals or other items. As for unproven, feel free to prove me wrong (as I'm away for a while from tomorrow). Go on the Test Server and buy a few hundred thousand m3 of NPC trade goods and then try and sell them and see if ever becomes unprofitable. Try several routes as one is not enough. Anyway, you could haul 100000m3 (or more) of NPC trade goods then setup a sell order and let it sell over a few days - not immediate returns but you haul for a minute and get a lot of return after a period for doing nothing else. It still is overpowered. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 22:35:00 - [235] Some of that sounds like good business to me... ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Knukalz	Posted - 2005.07.18 22:43:00 - [236] Yeh, is what the T2 indies or transports should have been. Instead, they offer no more capacity and much slower than a T1. Being tougher than tech 1 indies makes no difference really - no harder to pop than a tech 1, just means takes a few more shots while its sat there helpless. Very few situations where it being tougher will actually make the difference.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 22:57:00 - [237] Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi Some of that sounds like good business to me... The business would be too good though. 1mill per 1 minute haul. Even if it doesn't come immediately, that's still overpowered surely? Remember, there's no risk in this at all either. A normal indy can do it but a 100000m3 indy could do it ridiculously quickly and easily. Maybe a good fix would be to prevent NPC trade goods from being hauled in these things? Most of the 'pro' arguments for these ships have been for logistics (hauling assets etc) so I don't see how much problems it would cause. At any rate, the problems of NPC hauling with these things would be even worse. Not sure how you can explain this in RP terms though. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:03:00 - [238] RP? Just have the ships require content specific cargo modules. It's not that hard, a bit of imagination is required, etc... Make T2 low slot modules that only T2 Indy's can fit. Different modules for ore, minerals, trade goods etc. CCP can regulate what can be carried in this manner, etc... If you use no modules, the base cargo is 2X the base of it's T1 counterpart, etc... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:11:00 - [239] Originally by: Bhaal RP? Just have the ships require content specific cargo modules. It's not that hard, a bit of imagination is required, etc... Make T2 low slot modules that only T2 Indy's can fit. Different modules for ore, minerals, trade goods etc. CCP can regulate what can be carried in this manner, etc... If you use no modules, the base cargo is 2X the base of it's T1 counterpart, etc... Roleplay. I like that idea of yours of cargo specific mods. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
flummox	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:12:00 - [240] wow... are we REALLY still on this subject in the thread? i thought this thread was supposed to be about ideas to fill the gap between indys and the new freighter? yet it still just seems to be a dogpile on the (what? two?) ideas posted here. instead of just trying to say 'no', why not think of ways to take those ideas into something feasable. all of you would suck to be in a board meeting with... ... bring me my cheese...
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:22:00 - [241] Edited by: Bhaal on 18/07/2005 23:28:23 Quote: all of you would suck to be in a board meeting with... Feeling is mutual, I'd probably be going over the table if you were on the other side... I almost did that in an Engineering design review once... But kept my cool... I'll do the same here... Quote: I like that idea of yours of cargo specific mods. Thx, but that was just off the cuff. Honestly, there are so many ways to solve this problem, you just have to want to... CCP does not want to, that's obvious... I guess to them, there is no problem. I'm sure the DEV's are off working on some more T2 combat ships & modules... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Vivus Mors	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:32:00 - [242] well... since it is basically asking for a middle ground between indys and freighters I think it should be asking for equal doses of their limitations... a new low slot module that indys and transports can fit. "self sealing hold" or something to that effect. it will have a pretty good capacity bonus, but not a multiplier, just a static addition, something like 10,000m3 each. it will have the typical -10m/s speed modifier as current cargo expanders. however, the great caveat comes here... the name "self sealing hold" is chosen because like a freighter, once you undock, the hold is closed for business until you dock again... think of it as the price one must pay to surpass the current cargo capacity of "normal" expanders... and to prevent ôexploitingö if so much as one self sealing hold is fitted, the whole hold is considered sealed in space, regardless of any combination of expanders and self sealing holds. also, the reason for static volume bonuses rather than a multiplier is for two reasons... 1. if it was multipliers would just imply nothing but a different form of cargo expander, where as what I'm thinking is more of a self contained cargo "pod" so to speak that is packed and then plugged into the ship more or less. 2. with static values of 10,000m3 increments it insures that more low slots as now typically means more cargo space of course, but it also allows even mediocre haulers with few low slots (coughtransportscough) to be viable for hauling significant amounts of materials station-to-station, and then the "elite" level haulers (iteron 5, occator, impel) can lug super-duper amounts. Also with bonus volume coming in chunks of 10,000m3 each, they would end up being quite useful for moving the construction parts of freighters and dreadnoughts and so on without having to dedicate a freighter just to that. now, to keep them from competing with freighters directly of course they wouldn't be allowed to "launch" anything should the thought occur to anyone to have a "mini-freighter" and attempt to do what a full scale freighter is there for, thus making any potential for direct competition for roles minimal between the two options. ------------------------------------------------- For the price of one can of Quafe cola a day, you can adopt an Ewok... Please... think of the Ewoks...
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.18 23:55:00 - [243] Originally by: Bhaal RP? Just have the ships require content specific cargo modules. It's not that hard, a bit of imagination is required, etc... Make T2 low slot modules that only T2 Indy's can fit. Different modules for ore, minerals, trade goods etc. CCP can regulate what can be carried in this manner, etc... If you use no modules, the base cargo is 2X the base of it's T1 counterpart, etc... Or make a use for Standard Containers other than spamming gates. Introduce a Standard Giant or Super Giant (maybe 10000 m3 taken but contains 15000 m3) and make it so modules and minerals can only be shipped inside them, and simply eliminate trade goods from being inside the cans. But only allow raw ore, repackaged ships, and standard cans sit directly in the cargo. This is the kind of remedy Avon could be making instead of simply saying dont create the ship or it will be bad. Seriously, solve problems or else you are wasting time. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:15:00 - [244] Edited by: Avon on 19/07/2005 00:15:37 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi This is the kind of remedy Avon could be making instead of simply saying dont create the ship or it will be bad. Seriously, solve problems or else you are wasting time. So you accept there is a problem now? Whilst you were dogmatically denying even the possibilty of an unbalancing issue, are we to believe you would have accepted the need for an alternative remedy? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:16:00 - [245] Quote: So you accept there is a problem now? Whilst you were dogmatically denying even the possibilty of an unbalancing the issue, are we to believe you would have accepted the need for an alternative remedy? Wow, how old are you guys? ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:24:00 - [246] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: So you accept there is a problem now? Whilst you were dogmatically denying even the possibilty of an unbalancing the issue, are we to believe you would have accepted the need for an alternative remedy? Wow, how old are you guys? Bhaal, don't be a nugget. If anything, that was the most immature post in this thread so far. Way to go Captain Irony. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:25:00 - [247] Avon, this thread is 9 pages of ridiculousness, right from the start. Get over it. :) ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:27:00 - [248] Quote: Way to go Captain Irony. You rang? Just bustin' your balls a bit dude, don't be so serious all the time Mr Tinfoil Underwear... Sheesh... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:33:00 - [249] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 19/07/2005 00:15:37 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi This is the kind of remedy Avon could be making instead of simply saying dont create the ship or it will be bad. Seriously, solve problems or else you are wasting time. So you accept there is a problem now? Whilst you were dogmatically denying even the possibilty of an unbalancing issue, are we to believe you would have accepted the need for an alternative remedy? I accept that you think there is a problem, I also accept you aren't willing to help solve it, so I did it for you. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:33:00 - [250] Originally by: Bhaal Just bustin' your balls a bit dude, don't be so serious all the time Mr Tinfoil Underwear... Ouch. Wouldn't go near a microwave wearing a pair of those. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:37:00 - [251] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Bhaal Just bustin' your balls a bit dude, don't be so serious all the time Mr Tinfoil Underwear... Ouch. Wouldn't go near a microwave wearing a pair of those. That is not comic strip material. Well, not with me in them. DERISOR!!! ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.07.19 00:46:00 - [252] Originally by: Avon That is not comic strip material. Well, not with me in them. Well, a CCP crotch has already been abused in the comic recently, so I guess I'm left to pick a player to have his naughty bits fried. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.19 08:51:00 - [253] Hmm, just thought of another thing with the introduction of these ships (I'm not trying to deprive of them, promise ). Uber-AFK Miners. Set it mining a MASSIVE Veld roid for a while, come back, 100000m3 of ore for doing no work. Hmm. (Which is why I like that idea of a 'self-sealing' cargo hold). --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.07.19 18:41:00 - [254] Are there any roids that big? ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here
Caeden Nicomachean	Posted - 2005.07.21 20:47:00 - [255] IÆm a trader. Not a trader alt, a trader with two itty5s and saving for a freighter. A two-part idea: 1. Make standard gates (all the ones currently in the game) take minutes (five as the first idea) to allow a freighter to jump. 2. Put in larger (simply scale the graphic) gates which allow freighters to jump at more normal speeds (30 seconds lets say) along chokepoints through 0.0 and into seed systems. 3. Ad some mods for transports. This would reduce greatly the freighterÆs role in swallowing up trade routes in empire. If this isnÆt done, you will see people using them to trade roes/cattle and aggregating that away from the noobs otherwise. I have to think CCP has considered this - lunacy not to as all it would take is ~5 billion in capital to make it happen, risk free and turnovers would be very good. Also, freighters are expensive enough to make them a large corp endeavor. Right. These gate changes would ensure that the process also is, because instead of running the gauntlet the corp would be forced to clear the way for the freighter, and if along chokepoints as I have suggested would ensure that moving the freighter was often a source of large scale contest û as it should be. Instas will currently negate all of this, and we don't want to gimp instas. Again, freighters should have to clear the gauntlet û transports run them. A transport crew of two makes sense, a scout/tackler moving ahead of the transport. But a freighter ought to take a platoon of people to move. Freighters must not be used for empire trading. Transports can and should fill the freighter role for small corps û by running the gauntlet to 0.0 instead of clearing it, and doing it multiple times. Modules which up the m3 of transports to about 35% without gimping speed or the like would further ensure that transports remain the small corpÆs 0.0 transport option.
Ronin Woman	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:41:00 - [256] I agree with the author that logically, in a developing economy driven by increasing numbers of POS & Outposts that there would be a demand for greater cargo capacity between the current industrial & the insanely expensive 1 million m3 Freighter. I also agree that it should be attainable by any player willing to make the "investment". My suggestion is a Cargo Handling Skill that would add xx% [notice double digit percentage] capacity per level to the base capacity of whatever indy you are qualified to fly. Mods could still be added with the same penalties. Pre-requisete Mechanic, Enginering, Starship Command & Indy levels would have to be at 5 I would imagine. Seems fair to all imo.
Sariyah	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:11:00 - [257] Me need t2 shuttles. With a skill that gives a targeting range bonus to them.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.07.22 18:20:00 - [258] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 22/07/2005 18:23:02 1. Just because a few people found some magic routes to high hauling profit has nothing to do with the overall average profit from trading/hauling. Your 1m isk / minute argument is flawed because its a skewed data point, not an average. 2. I believe fully this routes do exist. trading/hauling is a profitable business. So for new players the NPCs keep the market liquid enough for them to make money doing this. Typically they could take a few hours to make their money. A Super hauler would make most of their money in one go. And they would have to find other routes. But you don't see BS ratting in .9 systems do you? The price value of trade routes needs to be reflective of the security of the system. That way noobs don't get cut out. 3. Notwithstanding, 100,000m3 hauler would be overkill IMHO. Most should be about 20,000m3 base. So you essentially doublt yoru profit due to your skills and investment. That should be enough. (point being; mission runners, ratters, miners all VASTLY increase their profit margin with their skills, haulers do not.) 4. It appears that empire hauling is going just fine. I don't know why anyone would use a transport ship in empire unless they were at war I guess. Oh and to hop through the new low sec zones CCP put between regions... my last 2 points are ship evaluations 5. Prowler. I did not think too highly of this ship at first. I can fit 4xWCS on a mammoth and haul a lot more. But after being attacked enough times it has payed for itself. Plus it warps away quick while mammoth gets rammed out of warp. 6. Mastodon. Too slow to warp = too easy to ram out of warp. Hauls less. Moves slow. Low propul strength. I hear it warps Slow and has small warp distance. Defence is overkill and wasteful, if you cant warp away, and you cant fly away, your dead, armor/shields/resistance dont matter. Plus it costs more. This ship should simply haul 2x what it does now, and I think CCP will have something. Otherwise, useless. Double hauling capacity of "deep space transport" ships AND prevent the ramming warp disruption. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
WhiskeyDP	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:35:00 - [259] is ppl still whining about this subject? freighters are good the way they are now(750k cargo +-) and there is nothing wrong with transport ships. it should and must be a gap between the two or the freighters wont have a purpose. not worth the isk atleast. as it is now it is motivated to invest in one, but wont be if they put a semi freighter into game. and that applies on a transport ship also. putting in a little bigger ship then the current transporters will take out the 4 big ones today: impel, bustard, occator and mastodon. u will practically make that ship useless. as it is now i fly in my occator 85% of my time in space(with or without exanders). yes its a pain in the a** to haul minerals, but it still have to be done. 1,5b is nothing for a freighter. i mean ppl have been paying 2-4b for a navy/faction bs for ages now. i rather pay 1,5-2b for a ³ber hauler then on a bs(faction cruisers are 100-400m. let the game go on and stop looking 5 inches infront of u ppl ================== Obelisk - comming soon plz check bio Charon - comming soon plz check bio wts Zealot - @ 75m wts BPC's - check my bio ingame(i have a huge selection of ships/modules)
Darth'Exodus	Posted - 2005.07.22 21:37:00 - [260] Ok heres an idea:How about all the industrialist corps form a industrialist union were you all allie together forming one huge group called "............." what ever and work together as a team to mine and haul and sell ore or mins proceds go to that named union and when theres enough in bank all those billions you might be able to buy,make etc frieghters for each corp in union.something like that.
Maurauder	Posted - 2005.07.22 22:39:00 - [261] Increase (double) the cargo capacity on the Blockade Runners and Transport Ships and that will solve 95% of the problem. They cost more and should have more capacity. Problem solved. Simple, clean and easy for the devs to do.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.07.23 04:06:00 - [262] Originally by: WhiskeyDP ... and that applies on a transport ship also. putting in a little bigger ship then the current transporters will take out the 4 big ones today: impel, bustard, occator and mastodon. u will practically make that ship useless... The price difference between the Mastodon and the Mammoth is about 50M+ and the hauling capacity difference is ~600m3. Useless. Increase the capacity of the deep space transports. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Ricdic	Posted - 2005.07.23 05:17:00 - [263] The way i see it. The T2 version of a ship is supposed to be a more elite version. The elite version is basically made to get the job done better. So all combat ships are correctly setup, with a little more power, and better survivability in combat. However when CCP coded the t2 industrials, they didnt even consider the empire industrial group, they simply made them to suit the pvp crowd, and ignored the empire masses. While a blockade running hauler is a great idea, do we really need two versions of these, that both do almost the exact same thing. This is why i am not all that excited about the t2 mining barges. I am betting a t2 barge will have large resistances, and zero-minimal improvement in actually mining. By bringing out both of these t2 industrials in this state, CCP is basically telling people that PVP and 0.0 are the only career choices. An industrial character (miner + builder + refiner) can max out with maybe 4 million sp in skills, while a PVP player has a good 15 mill + sp to work towards. Any career other than combat is left in its most basic forms by CCP. Does anyone else see where this game is headed? Now regarding Avon's 50+ posts. They are all explaining the same point, and i wont even begin to understand the setup he has running. Based on what he has said, it seems his alt's career requires Gallente Industrial V, and a few trade skills at 5. For any character to make the kind of isk that he is claiming (without mini freighters) surely they should need more skills or something. I say this as i worked the following out: 4 minutes / 1 million 8 minutes / 2 million 10 minutes / 2.5 million 60 minutes / 15 million 8 hours / 120 million Therefore a 2 million sp character can make 120 million isk a day with zero risk. I hope CCP see's this. BTW Avon please explain if my calculations are wrong in any way. Of course under Avons 1mil a minute quote (using a 100k m3 freighter), his 8 hour day would net him 480 million isk a day. Regardless, i think some industrial loving is way overdue. While i think that 100,000 m3 is going overboard (especially due to the latest in ship/drone resizing) i think a 25,000m3 base would suffice, allowing the possibility of up to 60,000m3 when adding skills+expanders. And i wish people would stop using the Iteron MkV for examples. A roleplaying caldari cant dream of a 27,500m3 cargohold. CCP's first stance was that different races excelled in different areas. Minmater with their speed, Gallente as industrials, Amarr with their tanks, and Caldari as pure combat pilots. The problem is that CCP are balancing every ship, so that none can overpower another, destroying role playing. Anyone knows that a thorax (Industrial Race Ship) can easily slaughter caldari cruisers, but a Badger MK2 could never dream of competing against an Iteron V. Therefore, if we (industrialists) demand balance (as every combat pilot does), to this end we demand a Badger Mkv, or equivalent of a Iteron V. Dreadnought Production INC is recruiting Join DPI Channel Or Visit (IGB) http://www.mmorpg-online.net/intro.html
WhiskeyDP	Posted - 2005.07.23 14:42:00 - [264] Edited by: WhiskeyDP on 23/07/2005 14:45:03 Originally by: Ricdic The way i see it. The T2 version of a ship is supposed to be a more elite version. The elite version is basically made to get the job done better. So all combat ships are correctly setup, with a little more power, and better survivability in combat. However when CCP coded the t2 industrials, they didnt even consider the empire industrial group, they simply made them to suit the pvp crowd, and ignored the empire masses. While a blockade running hauler is a great idea, do we really need two versions of these, that both do almost the exact same thing. This is why i am not all that excited about the t2 mining barges. I am betting a t2 barge will have large resistances, and zero-minimal improvement in actually mining. By bringing out both of these t2 industrials in this state, CCP is basically telling people that PVP and 0.0 are the only career choices. An industrial character (miner + builder + refiner) can max out with maybe 4 million sp in skills, while a PVP player has a good 15 mill + sp to work towards. Any career other than combat is left in its most basic forms by CCP. Does anyone else see where this game is headed? i have 18,5m sp in the 3 fields: industry(3,4m), learning(maxed) and science(9,7m)alone(less then 700k points in gunnery/missile, 31m total. TOTAL carebear character) sure u can progress in ur profession atleast when it comes to skillpoints, but not in actually using the skills at the same time since ccp have limited us with the same basic skills to rely on. atleast u miners have an adv mining skill and new adv equipment. for us scientist/producers we still rely on the same skills as we did since 2 month into retail: mass production, lab operation, research and science(did a post about this in the Idea section on the forum). so i must agree with u that it feels like ccp only looking for pvp and 0.0. semi-freighters is the wrong sulotion tho. it will mess with both the freighters and current transport ships. maybe boost current transport ships(not blockade runners) with 50k cargo or something to make it a little diffrence between t1 and t2 ================== Obelisk - comming soon plz check bio Charon - comming soon plz check bio wts Zealot - @ 75m wts BPC's - check my bio ingame(i have a huge selection of ships/modules)
Traxman	Posted - 2006.03.28 06:44:00 - [265] Just realize that im not alone with this, As i started this thread Heavy Industrial Class is something that is needed whatever ccp says. i dont do trade, i haul ****load of stuff daily, and i dont want to haul my 50k m3 loads with an freighter in 0.0 space and many in this thread thinks the same. 1m/min trading ? Please write me an evemail and tell me so i can verify that As WhiskeyDP says, some of us dont do pvp stuff so all we have is either an industrial class ship.. or a Freigther thats equal to teh pvp ppl to use a frigate OR a Dread in pvp. Its time for the devs to overlook this for the people that build the damn things in this game, not to them that destroys them.
Kalaan Oratay	Posted - 2006.03.28 15:40:00 - [266] After reading this whole topic (ug...) I had a few thoughts: a) I think not having a 'midway' ship between the current haulers and the freighters is an effort to promote teamwork in a less destructive manner then is the norm (in my limited experience). b) A corpmate of mine owns a frigate that requires multiple frigate piloting skills to fly, ie caldari+amaar (I forget...). Could this be used to create new faction industrials that could, for example, recieve double the normal industrial bonuses? Please note that Im neither for, nor against this idea at the moment. Initially of course I was all for it, but there where some good points made referring to the posibility of market destabilisation etc etc. IMO this is the reason why CCP havent released the tier II cargo expanders. (final note, I'm a newbie, first post, just adding fuel to the discussion :) )
Cervalan	Posted - 2006.03.28 16:04:00 - [267] Thread necromancy is not nice. ------ Economics 101 for the hard of thinking. Hazlett Economics in 1 lesson Rothbard Economics
Lord WarATron	Posted - 2006.03.28 16:05:00 - [268] There is no need for a midway ship. Just a need for better expanded cargos to solve the problem. Perhaps magnetic cargo expanders with large powergrid usage so they can only be used on Transport ships. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Hanns	Posted - 2006.03.28 16:33:00 - [269] i move around alot, and its a paint to make multiple trips to transport all my stuff, or put my trusts into someone with a frieghter, Id like a ship that had a big enough cargo that i could fit my ships and my modules so i could move systems, currently a frieghter is overkill, but a regular indy is badly lacking. somthing with about 60,000~80,000m3 would probably be enough. Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
LockandLoad	Posted - 2006.03.28 19:27:00 - [270] How hard would it be to have a ship /class that would be like a train. just add cargo cars for more space.
Hanns	Posted - 2006.03.29 00:29:00 - [271] Originally by: LockandLoad How hard would it be to have a ship /class that would be like a train. just add cargo cars for more space. thats a pretty funky idea, each level of the skill you could add another cargo container, the ships could kinda look like iterons, getting bigger with each container, thats a top idea. Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
Fuujin	Posted - 2006.03.29 00:36:00 - [272] I agree that a midway ship is needed. Once you have to move a large number of low end minerals on a daily basis then your only answer is a freighter, however that is a HUGE jump compared to combat pilots. The freighter is great and all but there is no middle ground where it's huge bay is not always needed but neither can the job be done in an industrial without many trips. So you're left with either making 30 long trips with a industrial or risking a freighter worth 1 billion (that's not to say escorts aren't there). A middle ground would be great, even if its in the form of more affordable and skill intensive modules that provide a moderate jump in cargo hold size. It's kind of funny that any time new combat and support ships are introduced there is only a small amount of whining that's clearly overshadowned by everyones cheers for new ships but when it coems to anything industrial or "carebear" related everyone tosses it out the window because "it's not needed". _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Hanns	Posted - 2006.03.29 00:40:00 - [273] Originally by: Fuujin I agree that a midway ship is needed. Once you have to move a large number of low end minerals on a daily basis then your only answer is a freighter, however that is a HUGE jump compared to combat pilots. The freighter is great and all but there is no middle ground where it's huge bay is not always needed but neither can the job be done in an industrial without many trips. So you're left with either making 30 long trips with a industrial or risking a freighter worth 1 billion (that's not to say escorts aren't there). A middle ground would be great, even if its in the form of more affordable and skill intensive modules that provide a moderate jump in cargo hold size. It's kind of funny that any time new combat and support ships are introduced there is only a small amount of whining that's clearly overshadowned by everyones cheers for new ships but when it coems to anything industrial or "carebear" related everyone tosses it out the window because "it's not needed". Not only is it a huge jump compared to combat pilots, but also most combat pilots wouldnt want to put the SP and isk into such a huge industrial ship that are the frieghters, we need somthign smaller! so the people who dont dedicate all there time to industry SP and fly a frieghter can take advantage of a smaller ship, but get some more cargo compared to a T1 indy. Originally by: Tuxford a new retribution bonus. +1 med slot per level
Archilies	Posted - 2006.03.29 02:44:00 - [274] this thread is a tad old EECC Recruitment Thread

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