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HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:38:00 -
[61] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote: Many a dev have stated in previous post that ganking somone in highsec was not designed for profit. Why do you guys keep forgeting that?
Any ship is profitable to gank if it has expensive modules in it and no tank modules of any kind fitted. And yes that's how it is designed - otherwise loot wouldn't drop on kills. What you and your kind seem to have done is taken that system and expanded it to some sort of interpretation of EVE as a PvP-optional game where you are entitled to failfit your ships. Quote:There is this place called null-sec. There people train and fit for real pvp. The problem is gankers dont want this because those people might shoot back and they could die to somone besides concord. I've heard of it.
Just quoting the DEV be glad to dig it out for you and post the link if you want so you can argue with them over design. |

HollyShocker 2inthestink
State War Academy Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:i heard nullsec is safer then highsec and highseccers belief that highsec is meant to be the safest of places, so really removing CONCORD is logical
Not safer per say, Just easier to tell friend from foe. |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2862
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:Just quoting the DEV be glad to dig it out for you and post the link if you want so you can argue with them over design. Please do so. |

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2153
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
ITT: A solution looking for a problem.
Mr Epeen  There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:17:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:But the "cost" a veteran player pays for the awesome benefit of protection from war should be higher Why? |

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3401
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:27:00 -
[66] - Quote
This Thread is not Dialogue, that's for sure.
GD has become so ludicrous it's just not worth it. More issue specific forums have much better formed proposals and answers.
Do we even really need GD ? Perhaps it should be only Dev Blog and Announcement oriented with comments allowed.
Sorry, but after 3 years of the same it's just seriously old. REAL old. America is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence (and back to barbarism - KI) without civilization in between. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |

EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
446
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:This Thread is not Dialogue, that's for sure.
GD has become so ludicrous it's just not worth it. More issue specific forums have much better formed proposals and answers.
Do we even really need GD ? Perhaps it should be only Dev Blog and Announcement oriented with comments allowed.
Sorry, but after 3 years of the same it's just seriously old. REAL old.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Generally these arguments end with posters like you crying and ISDs rushing to save the thread.
|

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3401
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:32:00 -
[68] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:This Thread is not Dialogue, that's for sure.
GD has become so ludicrous it's just not worth it. More issue specific forums have much better formed proposals and answers.
Do we even really need GD ? Perhaps it should be only Dev Blog and Announcement oriented with comments allowed.
Sorry, but after 3 years of the same it's just seriously old. REAL old. Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Generally these arguments end with posters like you crying and ISDs rushing to save the thread.
Thanks for spreading the word in duplicate. Really appreciated. America is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence (and back to barbarism - KI) without civilization in between. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2864
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:34:00 -
[69] - Quote
Indeed it is |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
506
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:37:00 -
[70] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:This Thread is not Dialogue, that's for sure.
GD has become so ludicrous it's just not worth it. More issue specific forums have much better formed proposals and answers.
Do we even really need GD ? Perhaps it should be only Dev Blog and Announcement oriented with comments allowed.
Sorry, but after 3 years of the same it's just seriously old. REAL old. Every now and again, some useful gem of a thread pops up. Usually just as I'm about to ragequit GD for good. Damn them! Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |

Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
165
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:40:00 -
[71] - Quote
SOLUTION!!
The problem really here is elite pvpers seem to want to attack those who dont want to attack back. CCP should develop a combat score for a corp, whenever a corp decs a pure carebear corp, the aggressors rank goes down, whenever they dec a PvP corp their rank goes up, this rank is measured by PvP kills NOT PvE kills.
This way 98% of elite pvpers who jerk off on their killboard stats, will be ranked based on 'actual' pvp and not "look at me mam, im punching a kitten" pvp.
In short what you will see is all these wardec / NPC threads dead because no one will want to be part of a corp with a terrible PvP rank, careless of what they kill, baring in my recognition is important to most internet spaceship nerds
They should also put a ticker on those who aggress, if they dock after they aggress, this ticker goes up, it will save people warping to these losers in local. |

silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
506
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
Kalle Demos wrote: In short what you will see is all these wardec / NPC threads dead because no one will want to be part of a corp with a terrible PvP rank, careless of what they kill, baring in my recognition is important to most internet spaceship nerds
You're joking, right? This is GD - Whinging and whining will never go out of style. They'll just find something new to kvetch about - probably about the new system that prevents them from getting points for kitten-punching. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |

Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
30
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:48:00 -
[73] - Quote
Kalle Demos wrote:SOLUTION!!
The problem really here is elite pvpers seem to want to attack those who dont want to attack back. CCP should develop a combat score for a corp, whenever a corp decs a pure carebear corp, the aggressors rank goes down, whenever they dec a PvP corp their rank goes up, this rank is measured by PvP kills NOT PvE kills.
This way 98% of elite pvpers who jerk off on their killboard stats, will be ranked based on 'actual' pvp and not "look at me mam, im punching a kitten" pvp.
In short what you will see is all these wardec / NPC threads dead because no one will want to be part of a corp with a terrible PvP rank, careless of what they kill, baring in my recognition is important to most internet spaceship nerds
They should also put a ticker on those who aggress, if they dock after they aggress, this ticker goes up, it will save people warping to these losers in local.
See, it really isn't just that. That's the kind of thing that makes me disagree with most people's points on these subjects though, yeah. I mean, I see no problem in people keeping out of wardecs. A lot of them just seem meant to pick on the weak targets and get away with being pirates safely in high sec. I do however see why people would not want couriers to supply corps they have decced unhindered. Suddenly that supply you're trying to deny them to leave them weak is still getting through. There is no attrition of any sort and ultimately, very little tangible effect. Its a system that can use some work, just that work shouldn't involve a sledgehammer. |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2866
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 22:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
this already exists its called battleclinic |

Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
165
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 23:14:00 -
[75] - Quote
Fine, just make the market only available in low sec, this means hi sec people can continue life without being griefed (I mean what would be the point, they obviously dont want to PvP) BUT will have to one way or another make arrangements, either by joining a corp or making a deal
This encourages inter trade, more drama, more group work, more action
Now as a MASSIVE carebear I wouldnt mind this, I would likely resub all my accounts too.
Ofc freighters will need to be buffed
I should mention this makes trading more global and not "Jita, Amarr etc", it makes low sec trading finally possible and the biggest thing of all, it makes ALL the wannabe dumb **** pirates leave the game
Trade wouldnt be about 0.01 under cutting, something 100 mil one place could be 200 mil another, due to its risk and 0.0 alliances will finally have to defend their moon goo BUT at the same time remove risk free freedom from hi sec |

Heywood Djiblomi
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 23:48:00 -
[76] - Quote
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:i heard nullsec is safer then highsec and highseccers belief that highsec is meant to be the safest of places, so really removing CONCORD is logical Not safer per say, Just easier to tell friend from foe.
That qualifies as safer in most rational peoples' minds. |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2871
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 23:52:00 -
[77] - Quote
yeah stop being irrational holly and help make highsec safer |

Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
321
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 00:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group. since everyone shares this advantage it isn't really an issue though, is it? now im NOT aggreeing with him, im more or less against nerfing npc-corps (even if null-sec uses them to haul tech, lowsec uses them to get their ships from jita, and highsec uses them to avoid wardecs).
but by your logic, if there was an exploit that allowed invulnerability, it isnt unfair because everyoen could do it.
just saying. your reasoning was weak/flawed. |

Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
906
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 00:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kalle Demos wrote:SOLUTION!!
The problem really here is elite pvpers seem to want to attack those who dont want to attack back. CCP should develop a combat score for a corp, whenever a corp decs a pure carebear corp, the aggressors rank goes down, whenever they dec a PvP corp their rank goes up, this rank is measured by PvP kills NOT PvE kills.
This way 98% of elite pvpers who jerk off on their killboard stats, will be ranked based on 'actual' pvp and not "look at me mam, im punching a kitten" pvp.
In short what you will see is all these wardec / NPC threads dead because no one will want to be part of a corp with a terrible PvP rank, careless of what they kill, baring in my recognition is important to most internet spaceship nerds
They should also put a ticker on those who aggress, if they dock after they aggress, this ticker goes up, it will save people warping to these losers in local.
You realize this would just make things worse, as many of the highsec griefer corps LOVE having reputations for griefing helpless carebears, right?
Additionally, EVE is a PVP game, and the only actions you can take that are not PVP are ship spinning and chatting with your corp mates(the latter may be pvp too, depending on your corp) so EVERYONE in game is engaged in PVP at all times, whether they like it or not.
Ship v Ship PVP should not be something you can hide from either, tbh, but you can always refrain from undocking.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3035
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 00:49:00 -
[80] - Quote
XxRTEKxX wrote:Again, a solution is to disallow the accepting of courier contracts by players in NPC corps. To freighter contracts, freighter pilots would have to be in player run corps.
I would prefer to see restrictions on ships you can undock. if you are in an NPC corp you live with trial account restrictions: no industrials, no freighters, no T2 ships.
Wardecs will still be trivially bypassed: receive a wardec, transfer the freighter to that other character in the non-wardec corp. it is cheaper to maintain multiple holding characters than to maintain multiple wardecs.
So in the end the restriction on what ships an NPC corp capsuleer can fly has no effect. So the NPC corp nerf only lost subscriptions and had no impact.
What about your restriction on courier contracts? Trivially bypassed: inacceptnthe contract with my wardecced -10 capsuleer, station trade the courier contract item to my NPC alt flying the freighter, then pod my way over to the destination, swap back, complete contract.
People complaining about NPC corps being immune to wardecs are simply looking for targets too stupid to turtle or shoot back. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3035
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 00:53:00 -
[81] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote: Ship v Ship PVP should not be something you can hide from either, tbh, but you can always refrain from undocking.
A ship in space is subject to PvP regardless of what corp it is part of. A freighter not in space is of zero utility.
People calling for a nerf of NPC corps are asking CCP to make life for potential targets harder than organising a suicide gank. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Balthisus Filtch
RISE Inc.
29
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
I would prefer to see restrictions on ships you can undock. if you are in an NPC corp you live with trial account restrictions: no industrials, no freighters, no T2 ships.
I like this solution.
It would solve the "hiding" problem of long term players exploiting NPC corp mechanics, while still providing new players that entry path to explore and understand the game a bit before they start getting picked on.
It would even allow people who have made NPC their community to continue to do so if they valued that community above the restrictions. |

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3035
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:13:00 -
[83] - Quote
Balthisus Filtch wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
I would prefer to see restrictions on ships you can undock. if you are in an NPC corp you live with trial account restrictions: no industrials, no freighters, no T2 ships.
I like this solution. It would solve the "hiding" problem of long term players exploiting NPC corp mechanics GǪ
No, it will not solve anything. The freighter owners will adapt and you will be left with suicide ganking as the only reliable method of controlling freighter traffic. So all that work by CCP, the lost subscriptions, and the extra workload incurred by freighter pilots, will amount to nothing. You will have not improved the situation over what we have today.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3770
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:21:00 -
[84] - Quote
People here make the naive mistake of believing that removing PvP evasion chances will somehow force / "entice" (via penalites) players to adapt and do it.
It has not worked for low sec, it's terrible game design to force or penalize players in subs based MMOs. I've played a number of MMOS both imposing "no retreat", "no escape", "penalties" or multiple of them at the same time and they ALL spectacularly failed.
People who don't want to fight, won't. Period. You can make them sit in a station, you can make them disband a corp, stay in NPC corp, form 1 men corps, join stuff like decshield and so on. But in the end they think: "I am paying for a game, who are you to force me to have no fun and be slaugthered, in a game where being spawn camped has also harsh consequences". This makes those players believe they are entitled to decide (because they pay a sub) whether they accept a fight or not. And they WELL know that if someone in EvE attacks you is because they prepared super-mega extra overhelming odds anyway.
So, have fun nerfing this and that, in the end you'll just get station sitters and ultimately quitters. Like in every single PvP MMO that attempted this route.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2872
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 01:41:00 -
[85] - Quote
wrong thread, one second |

Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
252
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
I'm amazed at how somebody can find an issue in this at all.
For god's sake, why do you hate haulers so much? Where did they touch you? If they want to haul, leave them hauling or suicide gank them. I see no frigging reason for you to be entitled to pay a laughable fee and be allowed to shoot them all. Hell, even the name of it goes against your reasoning. People figthing are at war. A genocide isn't a war.
EVE is like that? Well, flashing news for you, IT ISN'T, otherwise you would have no reason to complain 23/7. |

EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
450
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
"If you change it, I'm quitting!!!" is not a valid argument.
Neither is "I"ll never adapt or fight people ever!!! Its too hard!!!".
Put the tissues away. The amount of people who would actually quit over a change would be less than the amount of people we've gained from this month's supercapital brawl. It's all just posturing.
It's really, really not that hard to find a group of people to play with. Perhaps you can get together and gather ~20 (or more!) people to defend yourselves? Or maybe you can hire another group to defend you? You know, use the system to your advantage instead of throwing a temper tantrum because suddenly you are on the same playing field as everyone else. There's so much more of the game people are missing because they simply don't have to worry about it.
Why do players deserve to be immune to the wardec system? Being a new player is quite frankly the only reason. Definitely not because they give CCP $15 a month. |

Balthisus Filtch
RISE Inc.
29
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:11:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
No, it will not solve anything. The freighter owners will adapt and you will be left with suicide ganking as the only reliable method of controlling freighter traffic. So all that work by CCP, the lost subscriptions, and the extra workload incurred by freighter pilots, will amount to nothing. You will have not improved the situation over what we have today.
Well it would solve something, it would stop people "hiding" with impunity in NPC corps. I like you don't think people will find it that easy to identify the logistics people and war dec them but at least it would be possible where as today it is impossible and Eve players can be very ingenious.
I can't see many lost subs btw. The new players that actually need the NPC corps protection to ease into the game aren't the types who need to use freighters, transports and T2 ships. These things in the main take time to train for. By the time you have trained them and were beginning to butt your head against the restrictions you would be about ready to spread your wings and leave an NPC corp.
You best argument against a nerf is why people expect to be able to interrupt the supply chain in hi-sec. Surely they still have the low-sec and null sec possibilities to cut-off their enemies logistics. Why is there a need at all to HAVE to do it in hi-sec under a war-dec?
I don't really mind tbh either way, as long as NPC corps aren't nerfed for what they are, a way of helping new players ease their way into the game - because that really will hurt long term memberships.
|

Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
906
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:44:00 -
[89] - Quote
Has anyone every noticed that Noob NPC corps are not the same corps you go back into when you drop corp?
Simple(ish) solution. Allow the non-noob NPC corps to be wardecced, but when they are they automagically request aid from mercs(you know, with that new wardec mechanic that lets you recruit allies) and pay a reasonable sum to those merc corps for protecting them, possibly combined with a fair sized bounty on the deccing corp(which would be removed at the end of the wardec to prevent people doing it over and over just to get bounties).
As a final detail, bounce people from the noob NPC corp to a standard NPC corp at a given time when they can no longer be called noobs(being able to fly a freighter/mining barge/anything T2 is pretty much an obvious noob boundary).
This removes the immunity, while still stacking the odds in favor of NPC corp members and protecting noobs from wardec griefers.
Being safe is not something that should be an option, even if it is illusory safety. Knowing your NPC corp can be wardecced will help keep people from making the mistake that they are safe in EVE.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |

Tallian Saotome
Papercut Syndicate Nuclear Arms Exchange
906
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:47:00 -
[90] - Quote
Balthisus Filtch wrote: You best argument against a nerf is why people expect to be able to interrupt the supply chain in hi-sec. Surely they still have the low-sec and null sec possibilities to cut-off their enemies logistics. Why is there a need at all to HAVE to do it in hi-sec under a war-dec?
What about my highsec wardec corp targets? Not every supply interdiction needs to be about a nullsec entity, after all.
Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom. |
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