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Reuben Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed (and they usually are becuase their invalid) two things remain:
1. Wardec. War dec who? miners? nope that never comes up, Traders? nope, be usuless anyways since they don't undock. Pirates/Gankers? nada, they are the ones wanting the nerf. So wardec who? That brings us to ...
2) Haulers. They want to wardec haulers. hmm, that would mean, what they want is to Wardec Red Frog and Push, but that's useless since the only ones in those allaince are the contract brokers. So, in the end, what they want is to attack freighters, particualry those in corps like Red Frog and Push, in Hi-Sec with no recourse from Concord.
They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players.
since this is neraly all about them, where's Red Frog and Push on this issue. It's you're boats they want.
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
413
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree easy solution is to remove Concord.. |
dexington
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
568
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:I agree easy solution is to remove Concord..
Just leave hi-sec... GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1082
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Reuben Johnson wrote:(wrote some stuff ), where's Red Frog and Push on this issue. It's you're boats they want.
They're a bunch of pretty intelligent folks who find they have no need to resort to these GD Forums for issues which are not real.
I have used Red Frog Freight on more than one occasion and as far as I am concerned, they have their act together, are totally reliable and I highly recommend them.
o7
Personnel Division Director --áBene Gesserit Chapterhouse
"The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another." - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
looking at my last couple of mineral contracts they were picked up by player corp characters.
the issue is about visibility. if you're oddjobbing contracts then you're unlikely to get your corp wardecced. however if there were a constant stream of red frog freighters toing andf froing from jita then they would get wardecced because it's quite obviously an operation. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2217
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Reuben Johnson wrote:It's you're boats they want.
I'll probably-ábe banned for this |
Whitehound
633
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
RedFrog Freight and Push Industries have cow catchers mounted to their trucks so they can thunder unhindered over troll bridges. SCAM CAT - Titan Jump - I was there - Goon Dog |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
28
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Reuben Johnson wrote:(wrote some stuff ), where's Red Frog and Push on this issue. It's you're boats they want.
They're a bunch of pretty intelligent folks who find they have no need to resort to these GD Forums for issues which are not real. I have used Red Frog Freight on more than one occasion and as far as I am concerned, they have their act together, are totally reliable and I highly recommend them. o7
While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group. |
Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group.
since everyone shares this advantage it isn't really an issue though, is it? Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud.
171
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Posted - 2013.02.04 14:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
... they want to wardec "people who use NPC corps to avoid wardecs". It's not limited to a career. It was never limited to a career. It is limited to those who hide in NPC corps. It alwasy has been limited to those who hide in NPC corps. Those who hide in NPC corps includes anyone in an NPC corp, regardless of reason. Those who hide in NPC corps aren't necessarily intentionally "hiding" but are necessarily exempt from the risk of wardec, hence the terminology. So it is limited to those who are in NPC corp, which is necessarily a form of "hiding", whether intentional or otherwise. They want to wardec people who are hiding in NPC corps. It is not limited to a career because people in NPC corps have many careers, and are not even necessarily limited to one career. So it will include haulers, missioners, post-wardec corpies, miners, scammers, traders, pvpers, drug dealers, smacktalkers, pedophiles, Matari slaves, fish... wait, which game are you playing? There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency. |
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Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
it's not an NPC corp issue though, red frog could subcontract to player corp characters if they wanted. you can't see the connections of a private contract so you have no way of telling whose freight is whose. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
751
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote:it's not an NPC corp issue though, red frog could subcontract to player corp characters if they wanted. you can't see the connections of a private contract so you have no way of telling whose freight is whose.
They almost always do. |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
28
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group. since everyone shares this advantage it isn't really an issue though, is it?
Well, I can see it being a big reason why cutting off supplies is flat out impossible, but is that solvable? Hard to say. |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
889
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Damn, you guys blood thirsty. Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Vexen Lyre wrote:it's not an NPC corp issue though, red frog could subcontract to player corp characters if they wanted. you can't see the connections of a private contract so you have no way of telling whose freight is whose. They almost always do.
possibly because there's no advantage of putting a character through 8m of training to fly a freighter.
perhaps making capital ships corporate assets is the solution, if you think there's a problem. perhaps having different tiers of corporation with different levels of technology access and minimum member counts is also a solution. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 15:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Vexen Lyre wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group. since everyone shares this advantage it isn't really an issue though, is it? Well, I can see it being a big reason why cutting off supplies is flat out impossible, but is that solvable? Hard to say.
I don't think so, unless the corp you're trying to put under siege thinks jita is the only place to shop. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
303
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Posted - 2013.02.04 16:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote:Sentient Blade wrote:Vexen Lyre wrote:it's not an NPC corp issue though, red frog could subcontract to player corp characters if they wanted. you can't see the connections of a private contract so you have no way of telling whose freight is whose. They almost always do. possibly because there's no advantage of putting a character through 8m of extra training to fly a freighter. perhaps making capital ships corporate assets is the solution, if you think there's a problem. perhaps having different tiers of corporation with different levels of technology access and minimum member counts is also a solution.
I'm not sure what your point is here, but it's a little over 1m SP to fly a freighter, not 8m. If there was no advantage in training this, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't see multiple freighters on the gates down the uedama pipe. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1268
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Posted - 2013.02.04 16:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Reuben Johnson wrote:A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed (and they usually are becuase their invalid) two things remain:
1. Wardec. War dec who? miners? nope that never comes up, Traders? nope, be usuless anyways since they don't undock. Pirates/Gankers? nada, they are the ones wanting the nerf. So wardec who? That brings us to ...
2) Haulers. They want to wardec haulers. hmm, that would mean, what they want is to Wardec Red Frog and Push, but that's useless since the only ones in those allaince are the contract brokers. So, in the end, what they want is to attack freighters, particualry those in corps like Red Frog and Push, in Hi-Sec with no recourse from Concord.
They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players.
since this is neraly all about them, where's Red Frog and Push on this issue. It's you're boats they want.
This is an example of a person with a material interest (you see the poster is in an npc corp) dismissing an idea by making up false motivations for other people.
People like this NEED to believe in some kind of nefarious conspiracy or agenda, because they can't or won't understand that other people have philosophically different opinions from theirs.
I, personally want something done about npc corps. Not because I think people should be pushed out of them (I do not, i have a couple toons in npc corps to avoid wardecs while incursion running), or that npc corps should be wardeccable (they shouldn't). But the "cost" a veteran player pays for the awesome benefit of protection from war should be higher (and I am personally willing to pay that price).
I have nothing to gain materially from an adjustment of the npc corp scheme (i'm not a ganker, i don't even really pvp that much), other than the philosophical satisfaction that the game I play would have improved internal constancy.
I wish people like the OP would somehow come to understand that sometimes, things that are good for the game (in this case, a player driven game NOT having an npc based safe haven for veteran players) might not be the same as things that are good for their own narrow personal interests.
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Vexen Lyre
Serious Player Corporation
6
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Posted - 2013.02.04 17:03:00 -
[19] - Quote
Silk daShocka wrote:I'm not sure what your point is here, but it's a little over 1m SP to fly a freighter, not 8m. If there was no advantage in training this, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't see multiple freighters on the gates down the uedama pipe.
sorry that wasn't clear, i meant 8 minutes training corporate management to create a player corporation for the freighter alt which gives no advantage over an NPC alt and can be disbanded in the event of a wardec.
but ,getting to the nub of why there isn't a problem with NPC hauling alts, it is simply because literally anyone can pick up a public courier contract and haul your enemies stuff into the station they operate out of. Docked in Jita - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
1807
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Posted - 2013.02.04 18:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:RedFrog Freight and Push Industries have cow catchers mounted to their trucks so they can thunder unhindered over troll bridges.
Dont bring my corp into this.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2848
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 18:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Reuben Johnson wrote:A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed I've yet to hear any valid justification for NPC corps beyond "carebears leaving will kill EVE" (not true on either count), or justification for not simply removing them.
Quote:They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players. 1) Being CONCORDed isn't a risk - it's a cost. 2) Being suicide ganked in a freighter isn't a risk either unless you exceed a specific formula of value of cargo vs (EHP/ [ISK per DPS of enemy ships ratio]), then it's a deliberate risk taken by the freighter pilot. 3) Hauling things through alts isn't a right. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2848
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 18:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vexen Lyre wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:While I've heard great things about them, I admit, I can see where there'd be a problem with an untouchable hauling group being paid to help keep a wardecced corp supplied. With their methods they are completely invincible as a logistics group. since everyone shares this advantage it isn't really an issue though, is it? This is like saying being able to CTRL-Q out of the game instantly while in the middle of PVP to save your ship is "balanced" because 'everyone can do it'. You shouldn't be able to 'CTRL-Q' out of the consequences and content of playing in a sandbox PvP-driven game, nor should you be able to 'NPC corp' your way out of it either. This is basic common sense. |
MadMuppet
Three Fish In A Box
770
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Posted - 2013.02.04 19:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Reuben Johnson wrote:It's you're boats they want.
Eye think he kneads a bigger bote. I mine in EVE because I'm too drunk to fish in WoW.-á |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3394
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 19:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Reuben Johnson wrote:A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed I've yet to hear any valid justification for NPC corps beyond "carebears leaving will kill EVE" (not true on either count), or justification for not simply removing them. Quote:They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players. 1) Being CONCORDed isn't a risk - it's a cost. 2) Being suicide ganked in a freighter isn't a risk either unless you exceed a specific formula of value of cargo vs (EHP/ [ISK per DPS of enemy ships ratio]), then it's a deliberate risk taken by the freighter pilot. 3) Nothing stops the freighter pilot/miner/logistics alt/isk farmer from defending themselves, joining a group that will collectively defend themselves, paying someone to defend themselves, moving somewhere else where wardecs don't apply, giving some goods or services to buy peace from the wardec group, etc. etc. People don't do this now because why bother if your goal is to "do X on Y account and never ever worry about nonconsensual PvP", the best way to go about it is simply use wardec evasion mechanics.
This is all fine and dandy if someone wants EVE as a 2nd Job. Too much of this special kind of BS will indeed cause a lot of folks to stop playing utterly.
But then fanatics have always dealt the final blow to the things they claim to like and support. America is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence (and back to barbarism - KI) without civilization in between. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2848
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Posted - 2013.02.04 19:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Not playing EVE alt-tabbed while watching youtube because actual gameplay might happen = second job |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
3395
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 19:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Not playing EVE alt-tabbed while watching youtube because actual gameplay might happen = second job
You are just seeing ghosts around every corner. Get real and maybe we can eventually be convinced of your silly 'arguments'. America is the only country to go from barbarism to decadence (and back to barbarism - KI) without civilization in between. - Oscar Wilde - 1870's |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2013.02.04 19:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Reuben Johnson wrote:A lot of threads of late on nerfing NPC Corps. Why? Well, after all the arguemnts for it are dismissed I've yet to hear any valid justification for NPC corps beyond "carebears leaving will kill EVE" (not true on either count), or justification for not simply removing them. Quote:They make claims that NPC players have all the rewards with no risk, but they want CCP to give them just that. Give frieght gankers all the reward from attacking freighters in Hi-Sec with none of the risk of being Concorded. The number of hauler alts in NPC Corps is infinently small, but they wish to punish the whole lot over a very small number of players. 1) Being CONCORDed isn't a risk - it's a cost. 2) Being suicide ganked in a freighter isn't a risk either unless you exceed a specific formula of value of cargo vs (EHP/ [ISK per DPS of enemy ships ratio]), then it's a deliberate risk taken by the freighter pilot. 3) Nothing stops the freighter pilot/miner/logistics alt/isk farmer from defending themselves, joining a group that will collectively defend themselves, paying someone to defend themselves, moving somewhere else where wardecs don't apply, giving some goods or services to buy peace from the wardec group, etc. etc. People don't do this now because why bother if your goal is to "do X on Y account and never ever worry about nonconsensual PvP", the best way to go about it is simply use wardec evasion mechanics.
Eve is a alive universe, its set up with a high secutiry space, low security space, and null security... where each of these areas have rules that aply to them, high security space is soosed to be safer... looking at the rules that is in place, i can either yoin a player corp, or make my own corp, and be open to wardecs, considering the costs for wardecs, wich is a joke, i CHOOSE to be employed by the gallente corp CAS, all acording to the rules and how the Eve universe is set up... i want the high sec to be high security, if i want danger ill go to low sec and null... |
XxRTEKxX
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
60
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Posted - 2013.02.04 19:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
When a character is created, they are in an corp by default. Unless CCP can come up with a way to kick people out of an npc corp, the safer haven of npc corps will never change. I dont see CCP doing anything to give other players the ability to wage war on NPC corp players besides through ganking. If this game is to be a sandbox, ccp isnt going to force players to leave npc corps. Nor are they going to expose npc corp pilots to the war dec mechanic.
It doesnt matter if there is a valid arguement for either side as to whether NPC corp saftey should change. IMO, CCP wont do much to make it easier to grief players in NPC corps.
As far as the freight corp brokering contracts for NPC corp freighter alts to run issue that the OP is talking about, the only thing I believe CCP would ever do is to make it so that courier contracts can only be accepted by player corps and not npc corps. That would make more sense to me. If players are taking advantage of using NPC corps as a bypass to protect their player corp business(freight company), then why not make it so they have to accept the risk of only using freighters in players corps? |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
2849
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 19:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Not playing EVE alt-tabbed while watching youtube because actual gameplay might happen = second job You are just seeing ghosts around every corner. Get real and maybe we can eventually be convinced of your silly 'arguments' You are characterizing anything other then wardec evasion or immunity as "EVE as a 2nd job". Why should I take you seriously? |
Demolishar
United Aggression
775
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 19:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Not playing EVE alt-tabbed while watching youtube because actual gameplay might happen = second job
ITT: Reverse psychology. |
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