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Missile Specialization Pre-requisites

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bigsteve	Posted - 2005.07.15 13:45:00 - [1] What the HELL is going on there. To get the Large guns Specialization you needs five yes five Level 5 Skills, thats a hell of alot of learning. Now to Get: Rocket/standard/heavy/torpedo Specialzation you need one, yes one Skill at level V and Cruise you need two. i say again what the F**K is going on. WHY HAVENOT CCP BROUGHT THE SEPCIALZATION IN LINE WITH THE GUNNERY SPECIALIZATIONS. It looks like it to me that CCP still think that missiles are the way to go to in this game, Noob players see the Gun Specialzations and then see the Missile specialations and think WWOOWWW, hold on, to much learning for Guns, ill go for Missiles.
mememem	Posted - 2005.07.15 13:48:00 - [2] Gun specialisation allows you to use multiple T2 guns. missile specialisation lets u use one. Case closed
ASIV TRE	Posted - 2005.07.15 13:57:00 - [3] Plus even training missiles up u still dont get the sort of damage you can get from turrets
bigsteve	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:02:00 - [4] Originally by: ASIV TRE Plus even training missiles up u still dont get the sort of damage you can get from turrets [rant2] DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, that all people talk about these days. DID I MENTION any thing about damage, this is not a DPS thread, its a Skills RE-REQUISITES THREAD. [/rant2] At least CCP could of figured into the Specialization requirements the new missile skills, there are 6, they could of have one at least at level 5 per specialization type
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:09:00 - [5] Originally by: bigsteve Originally by: ASIV TRE Plus even training missiles up u still dont get the sort of damage you can get from turrets [rant2] DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, that all people talk about these days. DID I MENTION any thing about damage, this is not a DPS thread, its a Skills RE-REQUISITES THREAD. [/rant2] At least CCP could of figured into the Specialization requirements the new missile skills, there are 6, they could of have one at least at level 5 per specialization type And why would you want to use Tech 2 weapons other than to cause more damage? Oh, yes, because they cost more to buy and more to fit, and you just like the PAIN? If missiles still look like the mutt's nuts to you, then do what everyone else has the choice to do and train for 'em. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
bigsteve	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:28:00 - [6] i shall refer to my answer i gave some moments ago.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:30:00 - [7] sigh Never mind.... ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Shadow Jane	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:42:00 - [8] Edited by: Shadow Jane on 15/07/2005 14:44:24 For all you out there who think i hate the missiles Junkies, well i dont This is my Raven Pilot account, and its that i just feel the we still have a silver spoon in our mouths, yeay spoons. When this character has all the relavent skills high enough ill take her back to Lvl 4 missions and see how well she gets on, I feel that with also the ADV weapon Upgrades and Shield Compensaion, Raven in lvl 4 may still be doable, although my take a little long. Edit Damn wrong character on this account
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:49:00 - [9] I'm confused. Doesn't cruise missle 1 require torp 4, and torp 1 require heavy 4 .... so on so on down the line. And you need any of the missle ranks to lvl 5 to train any one spec skill so what's the problem?
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 14:59:00 - [10] Edited by: Grey Area on 15/07/2005 15:00:35 I'll reply to X'Alor, as I made a similar mistake in another thread. It's the specialization skills (i.e. for Tech 2) that are the problem. Each gunnery skill (i.e. Tech 2 Large Hybrids) also requires that you have high skills (level 4 or 5) in both small and medium hybrid specialization. You can train Torp specialization without specializing in small missiles. But, as was mentioned, you get access to less types of launcher than you do to types of Hybrid (or energy or projectile) turret. Edit - my opinion - it's the gunnery skills that are wrong, not the missiles...stupid to train small, then medium to get to large. But I guess we are stuck with it now. ========================================= I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Uggster	Posted - 2005.07.15 16:19:00 - [11] I had a battle with a Apoc yesterday in my Raven with T2 cruise launchers on it and I still got owned..... Hang on, half the mods your complaining about dont even exist yet. NERF T3 GUNS NOW !!!
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.07.15 16:34:00 - [12] I'd like to see someone with a tempest with t2 1400s and t2 siege launchers. But if you had to go through 2 months or more of training to use those t2 launchers...why the hell even bother? Just continue to specialize in guns and use arbalest sieges, right? Oh... maybe that's why they left it 'unbalanced'. One more thing. To the original poster. It isn't in line with gunnery specialization, because it ISN'T gunnery specialization. Missile skills are a whole different category. Please take a good hard look at your character sheet and you'll see what I'm talking about. Now maybe if Sharpshooter and Controlled Bursts and stuff had any effect whatsoever on missiles, it'd be a different story... but they don't, and it isn't. Obstinate poster. --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.07.15 17:00:00 - [13] Originally by: bigsteve What the HELL is going on there. To get the Large guns Specialization you needs five yes five Level 5 Skills, thats a hell of alot of learning. Now to Get: Rocket/standard/heavy/torpedo Specialzation you need one, yes one Skill at level V and Cruise you need two. i say again what the F**K is going on. WHY HAVENOT CCP BROUGHT THE SEPCIALZATION IN LINE WITH THE GUNNERY SPECIALIZATIONS. It looks like it to me that CCP still think that missiles are the way to go to in this game, Noob players see the Gun Specialzations and then see the Missile specialations and think WWOOWWW, hold on, to much learning for Guns, ill go for Missiles. Maybe because Caldari also have to work on Hybrid Specilizations too, especialy post patch?
Haoleboy	Posted - 2005.07.15 17:25:00 - [14] You think the Matari pilots want to go through the same hell to get T2 launchers as they did for T2 Guns? And like Raw said, most of Caldari pilots, who are worth anything, have some gun specialization. We may not have Large spec, but give us a BS with rail bonus, you'll see more. To fly the hawk, harpy, eagle you need to be able to use T2 guns to use them effectively. Which means if Caldari are going T2 ships, they probably have T2 Gun skills. Also, Missles arent a "win" button like they used to be. Guns will still outdamage missles. Its about damage...we are talking about weapons here, if it isnt DPS or fitting, then why would you really be complaining? You must think because we can get T2 launchers "faster" that makes us better, and that we can pwn faster than gunners...not true, even post patch. But hey, its not supposed to be identical.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.07.15 17:44:00 - [15] Ok so if this were to happen. I've been training my char for 2 years to fly said BS and yes got torp 5 and cruise 5 to do so. implement new skills. whatever ..... just another month to get back to where i was after training and paying for two years. yes I do already have cruise spec trained. as it is the new skills screwed my 2 year old char from using his said ship choice and specialization of. so now you want me to take another 2 monthes to train rocket spec to 4 to get light spec to 4 to get heavy spec to 4 to get torp spec to 4 to get back so I can use my T2 cruise launchers that I already got trained. Sorry to say but. then WTF have I spent the last two years paying a subscription for to fly this char that will be adjusted right out of use and existance. just to be a safe space veldspar can miner I think not. And look at caldari BS's and their turret capabilities, does it look like any of them are intended to be a miner?
Dreez	Posted - 2005.07.15 18:32:00 - [16] Omfg, cry me a river, you have any idÚa of how much us Gunship pilots have to learn in gunnery to be effective ? ALOT. 'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
ASIV TRE	Posted - 2005.07.15 19:27:00 - [17] This is just another Missiles are uber and us turret pilots get a bad deal, quit the whining. CCP did something to balance it up and now missiles can hardly hit frigs/cruisers where as turrets still will esp at range. Yes theres a few more skills to use turrets for max effectiveness but everything has its advantages and disadvantages.
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.07.15 19:31:00 - [18] ya actually I do. if ya need to know. started training my alt 3 monthes after this char and specialized him amarr and lasers ftw and yes he currently has over 8 mill in laser gunnery only. so yes, I do. doesn't make it right to screw a customer that has paid to play and spcecialize in a certain aspect of the game for over two years and make it unusable for 2 monthes or longer. it's bad enough they seeded the changes AND the skills at the same time. I can't even go about things as usual and it was bordering on do i train missle support skills up or top off my gunnery for T2 guns and back to gun ships. still bordering on it even with seeing how the support skills work. My alt loves his T2 large guns specs at 4, they kcik some serious crap. next.
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.15 19:33:00 - [19] I also love the fact that your spec skills give a bigger DoT increase then turret spec skills.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 19:38:00 - [20] Edited by: Grey Area on 15/07/2005 19:40:34 Originally by: Dreez Omfg, cry me a river, you have any idÚa of how much us Gunship pilots have to learn in gunnery to be effective ? ALOT. I posted about this...actually it's EXACTLY the same amount to specialise in small medium and large turrets as it is to specialise in small medium and large missiles. 17,152,000 skill points exactly for each, if I recall. Edit original thread here And yes, you're right, you do have the more stringent skill requirements, but if you want to learn ALL of a class of one weapon, that doesn't actually make much difference, does it? ========================================= I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 22:18:00 - [21] Cheers Electro. I keep seeing this "2% ROF is better DPS than 2% damage" argument, but no-one's exactly explained how yet. Sounds like bunkum to me... ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.15 22:24:00 - [22] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Originally by: Blind Fear I also love the fact that your spec skills give a bigger DoT increase then turret spec skills. Actually, they don't. 2% Rate of Fire bonus is essentially the same as 2% more damage over time. C'mon people, learn basic math. 1/.9 = 1.111% Its halfway to lvl 6 compared to turret spec skills.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.15 22:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Blind Fear Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Originally by: Blind Fear I also love the fact that your spec skills give a bigger DoT increase then turret spec skills. Actually, they don't. 2% Rate of Fire bonus is essentially the same as 2% more damage over time. C'mon people, learn basic math. 1/.9 = 1.111% Its halfway to lvl 6 compared to turret spec skills. That's not a proof, it's a statement. Pretend I am the retard you think I am and spell it out for me. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Blind Fear	Posted - 2005.07.15 22:34:00 - [24] Edited by: Blind Fear on 15/07/2005 22:34:05 Assume the damage mod on a weapon is 1x. Assume the RoF is 1 second. A 10% reduction to RoF yields a RoF of .9 seconds. 1x Damage Mod / .9s RoF = 1.111x Damage Mod. 1x Damage Mod * 1.1x Damage Multiplier = 1.1x Damage mod. 1.111/1.1 = 101% Therefore the missile spec skills give an extra 1% DoT, which is not an inconsiderable number given that each level only gives 2%. Oh, and this is quite literally 3rd grade mathamatics.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.16 07:19:00 - [25] That's a proof...you're right, simple maths, I just hadn't thought it through. Thankyou. I won't lessen my apology by using this reply to btch...I'll do that later ========================================= I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.07.16 09:30:00 - [26] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 16/07/2005 09:33:14 Alright, lets split hairs. Say a missile does 50 damage every 10 seconds. The damage per second would be 5. Specialization 5 would be a 9 second rate of fire (10 * .9). 50 damage every 9 seconds is 5.55. 5 / 5.55 = .9009 5 dmg per second is 9.99% less than 5.55 damage per second. 5.55 / 5 = 1.11x or 111% of the original damage per second. Get how it works? Now for a turret. For consistancy's sake, lets use a 25x damage multiplier with a Rate of Fire of 10 seconds. Say the ammo does 2 damage, thus this weapon is doing 5 damage per second (same as the launcher). Now, 25x 1.1 (Turret Spec 5) = 5.5 damage per second. The actual difference between the two is less than 1%. Its all due to how statistics simply works. But the bottom line is, theres no distinct advantage for launchers here. (Or should I state the difference between Ballistic Control systems and Turret Damage mods?)
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.07.16 09:47:00 - [27] What this thred is about is two fold: Missile specialisation does not require a generic skill (for example Motion Prediction or Rapid Launch) Missile specialisation does not require previous, smaller, missiles specialisations Don't get it wrong, turret users would love to do away with the second requisite (specialisation in LARGE Hybrid requires specialisation in SMALL Hybrids!?), too, but the first requisite adds a flavour to the specialisation rather than marely being the next-step-up. Compare to in Gemini you weren't really recommended to train skills to level 5 because it was a waste of time. Now there's plenty of incentives to train skills to level 5, plenty enough that there's no longer any "what level 5 skills do you have?" threds popping up every other day. Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK The actual difference between the two is less than 1%. It's actually exactly 1% in favour of the missile because you are using rounded-off numbers P.S. I'm still waiting for a Heavy Rocket or Light Torpedo to claim the Assault Launcher and present a short-range and high-damage alternative for cruisers -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please. Josameto III - Moon 1
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.16 23:05:00 - [28] Right, waited long enough, back to btchin'... What this post is about, in general terms is "Wah! It's unfair". The original poster started out saying it was unfair to turrets, cos of the requirements. I'll agree with that. There are plenty of unfairnesses (or let's just call them "differences") between turrets and missiles. It's also true there are plenty of differences between hybrids/lasers/projectiles. Get over it. Stop complaining that it's unfair, and post something constructive about what you want done to change it. If you have the balls, also post something you're prepared to GIVE UP to get your way (remember that word "balance"). Alternatively, if you think you are being shafted, say so, and in a game where the math is becoming ever more transparent, post figures to back up your argument. I'll admit I'm biased, but in terms of people posting constructively, I think the missile users have the edge (with one or two VERY unfortunate exceptions). Turret users seem to post with a kneejerk reaction of; Nothing can be changed now. No. It works. Leave it alone. Missiles are just fine thank you. Who can blame them? They have exactly what they wanted in this patch...their weapon system buffed, the opposing weapon system nerfed. Let them have their moment of glory, but keep posting the numbers...CCP have to listen EVENTUALLY. I'm not suggesting (nor would I want) a return to the old "targetlaunchkilltargetlaunchkill" Raven. But the balance HAS to shift back our way a little...the modules and implants would be a good starting point at least. ========================================= I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.18 08:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Blind Fear I also love the fact that your spec skills give a bigger DoT increase then turret spec skills. Given that I now accept this, and that training eqiuvalent gunnery/missile skills to level 5 will leave missile users 1% ahead on damage... ...it is however yet another selective memory trick from the turret user camp. Have a look at the "Surgical Strike" and "Warhead Upgrade" skills. Effectively identical equivalents from the gunnery and missile camps, except that Surgical Strike is a rank 4 skill that gives 3% to damage per level, and Weaopn Upgrades is a rank 5 skill that gives only 2% to damage per level! So... Specialisation skills...1% DOT advantage for missile users Above mentioned skills...5% DOT DISADVANTAGE for missile users So we're 4% down over all. But it doesn't end there...look at Rapid Firing vs Rapid Launch,,,at least they are both rank 4 skills this time, but again - Firing is 4% to ROF, Launch is only 3%. There's another 5%, so now we are NINE PERCENT down on damage. I wish the turret camp would stop making selective claims about the missile change to make it seem anything other than what it was...a nerf. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
jukriamrr	Posted - 2005.07.18 09:07:00 - [30] 2% RoF is better than 2% extra damage. However, in the long run, it has you reload more often. Hence the more time passes, the more they are actually equivalent.

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