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Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.07.24 23:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/07/2005 23:05:21 This is true, after the attack that day subsided and the POS finally came out of reinforced mode for the second time, the shields were boosted to the point where it would allow more fuel and strontium to be added. I'm sorry if I was unclear or inadvertantly confused the issue. That's not a moon... that's my POS
Sochin	Posted - 2005.07.25 00:22:00 - [62] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/07/2005 23:05:21 This is true, after the attack that day subsided and the POS finally came out of reinforced mode for the second time, the shields were boosted to the point where it would allow more fuel and strontium to be added. I'm sorry if I was unclear or inadvertantly confused the issue. I think I see what happened. We had organized and timed our operation to destroy the POS when it was supposed to come out of reinforced mode. As we've established, due to a bug the POS immediately re-entered reinforced mode for a short time (couple of hours I think). Unfortunantly, this really screwed up the timing of our attack, and the vast majority of our fleet had to go to bed or stop playing before it came out of reinforced for the second (real) time. This allowed you to recharge the shields enough to add more fuel, which reset the bug so we experienced the exact same issue when we tried again the next day. You then removed the POS before we had an opportunity to catch it when it came out of reinforced for "real". Nemo me impune lacessit
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.07.25 00:59:00 - [63] my personal view of the loss of a POS by SG (and other ones): ..well it's a war, and do you prefer to spend hours spending ammo in a mindless "shoot the dead duck"? Or do you prefer going thru a less boring, more clever, less expensive way of sabbotage an enemy resource? (imho a valid tool) I'll take door n¦2. ..althou SG is right: the fact that the atribution of access to use any part of the POS also makes one available to offline the POS structure. That I must say it's rather bad. but that's game mechanics, and I don't see any exploit there. ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Dogsta	Posted - 2005.07.25 01:25:00 - [64] OMG! i think we're all on the same page about this for once :) Originally by: Sochin Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/07/2005 23:05:21 This is true, after the attack that day subsided and the POS finally came out of reinforced mode for the second time, the shields were boosted to the point where it would allow more fuel and strontium to be added. I'm sorry if I was unclear or inadvertantly confused the issue. I think I see what happened. We had organized and timed our operation to destroy the POS when it was supposed to come out of reinforced mode. As we've established, due to a bug the POS immediately re-entered reinforced mode for a short time (couple of hours I think). Unfortunantly, this really screwed up the timing of our attack, and the vast majority of our fleet had to go to bed or stop playing before it came out of reinforced for the second (real) time. This allowed you to recharge the shields enough to add more fuel, which reset the bug so we experienced the exact same issue when we tried again the next day. You then removed the POS before we had an opportunity to catch it when it came out of reinforced for "real". No name is legion. The son of a demon. brought up from the depths of hell. The changing lamb. Turns to sand. Glorious renewal of war...
Sochin	Posted - 2005.07.25 04:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Dogsta OMG! i think we're all on the same page about this for once :) Originally by: Sochin Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/07/2005 23:05:21 This is true, after the attack that day subsided and the POS finally came out of reinforced mode for the second time, the shields were boosted to the point where it would allow more fuel and strontium to be added. I'm sorry if I was unclear or inadvertantly confused the issue. I think I see what happened. We had organized and timed our operation to destroy the POS when it was supposed to come out of reinforced mode. As we've established, due to a bug the POS immediately re-entered reinforced mode for a short time (couple of hours I think). Unfortunantly, this really screwed up the timing of our attack, and the vast majority of our fleet had to go to bed or stop playing before it came out of reinforced for the second (real) time. This allowed you to recharge the shields enough to add more fuel, which reset the bug so we experienced the exact same issue when we tried again the next day. You then removed the POS before we had an opportunity to catch it when it came out of reinforced for "real". Good, please make sure your alts remember this next time they think about claiming we are unable to destroy POS militarily. Can we now agree that those two POS in 3zt would have been destroyed by BOB on the first day of the seige if it wasn't for a bug introduced in POS fuel consumption by the Cold War patch? Nemo me impune lacessit
Dogsta	Posted - 2005.07.25 07:42:00 - [66] Originally by: Sochin Can we now agree that those two POS in 3zt would have been destroyed by BOB on the first day of the seige if it wasn't for a bug introduced in POS fuel consumption by the Cold War patch? There called features as ranger said, we were more surprised then you. as for if it's a bug or not, only the devs could really answer that. No name is legion. The son of a demon. brought up from the depths of hell. The changing lamb. Turns to sand. Glorious renewal of war...
dabster	Posted - 2005.07.25 08:53:00 - [67] Bug <-> Feature, the line is thin I sense. ___________________________ Chicks dig Brutor's
F'nog	Posted - 2005.07.25 09:01:00 - [68] I still have to ask: Why did you give POS access to a 3-day old recruit? Originally by: Morela "hey! I'm gonna go attack the north! Afk till tuesday!"
Rick Dentill	Posted - 2005.07.25 12:37:00 - [69] I think this debate centres on a few of points: 1) Its a game 2) Its a game 3) Its a game Point number 1) "Its a game" Some people spend many many hours acruing isk and resources. Though they have fun the real fun is with what they will buy with them. After many weeks of work they build their POS or fleet of ships etc. They feel happy, when they lose it they feel sad for all the effort gone to waste. Fair point. Point number 2) "Its a game" Some people play EVE as "nasty" characters. This is not a stain on their personalities, I am sure they are nice people in the real world. How many people play any MMPORG and hope to be the all powerful hero, or evil vilain. Its all simply a level of roleplay. There is no maliciouns intent against a particular person (well I hope not) it is an RP against another character or another corp. Point number 3) "Its a game" THIS IS A GAME. you should be having fun all the time, regardless of what is happening or had happened. Moreover you or someone close to you pays for it so doubly you should be having fun. Most everything in the game has an element of risk involved, whch we all have to live with and or embrace. Dont take it seriously. If you lose a billion isk and end up with a 1000, dont complain! its what you started with, and you had no skills! It is annoying that certain elements of game mechanics and the occasional bug causes problems. You might have lost all your minerals but you can always mine some more tommorow. _______ Save me Jebus! http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/dd.php
Fred0	Posted - 2005.07.25 12:56:00 - [70] Originally by: F'nog I still have to ask: Why did you give POS access to a 3-day old recruit? Don't expect an answer, thin they're probably asking that question themselves...

Trooper B99	Posted - 2005.07.25 13:36:00 - [71] Originally by: Rick Dentill I think this debate centres on a few of points: 1) Its a game 2) Its a game 3) Its a game For the crews of the ships being blown to pieces and the infiltrators involved, it isn't a game, it's very much real life and very important. shrugs Mind you, for some of us nearly immortal pod-pilots, it does often seem like a game what we do. grins and winks Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
NAFnist	Posted - 2005.07.25 16:08:00 - [72] I think of this as corp theft, and I dislike it very much. BUT its part of the game, and upto one self if you wanna live the honorable way or not. One of many things that makes this game so great. _____________ Sir Yes Sir!
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.07.25 17:16:00 - [73] Originally by: NAFnist I think of this as corp theft, and I dislike it very much. BUT its part of the game, and upto one self if you wanna live the honorable way or not. One of many things that makes this game so great. NAFnist, with respect, do not talk to us of honour when your alliance has issued orders to renege on any 1v1 that might be agreed. We've had pilots warped to POS's and been warped in on to be outnumbered. A 1v1 is sacred to us, we will ALWAYS honor it, you will not. You think this operation is dishonorable, we think it's well executed and well planned. We're both right. Get over it.
Paul Castrin	Posted - 2005.07.25 18:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: F'nog I still have to ask: Why did you give POS access to a 3-day old recruit? Don't expect an answer, thin they're probably asking that question themselves... The real issue is that there is no layered control for POS access. For hanger access in POSes yes, but if a character can walk in and turn off a POS when they only have the most basic of access to corp hangers and no NPCCS / PCS control rights (i.e. can't rent, unrent, etc.) then I'd call that an exploit. A character that has been granted access to a POS but no substantial corp rights should not be able to do this ... period. It doesn't matter if they are a 3 day or a 3 month or a 13 month old character.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.07.25 18:30:00 - [75] Originally by: Paul Castrin Originally by: Fred0 Originally by: F'nog I still have to ask: Why did you give POS access to a 3-day old recruit? Don't expect an answer, thin they're probably asking that question themselves... The real issue is that there is no layered control for POS access. For hanger access in POSes yes, but if a character can walk in and turn off a POS when they only have the most basic of access to corp hangers and no NPCCS / PCS control rights (i.e. can't rent, unrent, etc.) then I'd call that an exploit. A character that has been granted access to a POS but no substantial corp rights should not be able to do this ... period. It doesn't matter if they are a 3 day or a 3 month or a 13 month old character. You don't need starbase can config role to access hangars.
CrusherDK	Posted - 2005.07.26 01:40:00 - [76] Edited by: CrusherDK on 26/07/2005 01:41:48 Originally by: Grimpak my personal view of the loss of a POS by SG (and other ones): ..well it's a war, and do you prefer to spend hours spending ammo in a mindless "shoot the dead duck"? Or do you prefer going thru a less boring, more clever, less expensive way of sabbotage an enemy resource? (imho a valid tool) I'll take door n¦2. ..althou SG is right: the fact that the atribution of access to use any part of the POS also makes one available to offline the POS structure. That I must say it's rather bad. but that's game mechanics, and I don't see any exploit there. I want to see you saying it, if you get your corp POS offlined same way, and you loose all your stuff.
KOTH Fluf	Posted - 2005.07.26 07:54:00 - [77] There was no bug in the POS reinforced modes in 3ZTV. The towers both came out of reinforced mode for the ammount of Strontium they had in them. They just did it at 80% intervals. Which confused your forces. Your failure was not keeping forces on to destroy them. In attacking a POS, it takes a all out commitment of forces for 24 to 48 hours. This means a full 23hrs of gameplay, not just logging on to attack it and then logging or leaving. You allowed us to recharge our shields not once, but twice, allowing us to remove them, which was planned to be done a few days earlier. Hence, you lost. The few ships FA lost in the fleet battle were worth the fun. But once you have been in one blob fleetbattle, you have seen them all. Boring. Elite Academy and Ranger Corp left FA later not because of BOB, but because we had been contemplating it for along time, as we have wanted to pursue our own destiny, just as many corps have, like MASS, Damaged Inc and a few others in Eve that have left Alliances. As far as the Sturm POS, you used a flaw in game mechanics from CCP to destroy someone elses hard work. Valid tactic in war? Sure. But just because the game mechanics allow it doesnt make it right to do. This is where I lost my respect for you guys. I hope CCP fixes this soon. Fluf CEO Elite Academy
Sochin	Posted - 2005.07.26 08:16:00 - [78] Originally by: KOTH Fluf There was no bug in the POS reinforced modes in 3ZTV. The towers both came out of reinforced mode for the ammount of Strontium they had in them. They just did it at 80% intervals. Which confused your forces. Your failure was not keeping forces on to destroy them. In attacking a POS, it takes a all out commitment of forces for 24 to 48 hours. This means a full 23hrs of gameplay, not just logging on to attack it and then logging or leaving. You allowed us to recharge our shields not once, but twice, allowing us to remove them, which was planned to be done a few days earlier. Hence, you lost. The few ships FA lost in the fleet battle were worth the fun. But once you have been in one blob fleetbattle, you have seen them all. Boring. Elite Academy and Ranger Corp left FA later not because of BOB, but because we had been contemplating it for along time, as we have wanted to pursue our own destiny, just as many corps have, like MASS, Damaged Inc and a few others in Eve that have left Alliances. As far as the Sturm POS, you used a flaw in game mechanics from CCP to destroy someone elses hard work. Valid tactic in war? Sure. But just because the game mechanics allow it doesnt make it right to do. This is where I lost my respect for you guys. I hope CCP fixes this soon. Get your damn stories straight. The guy admits its a bug, while you claim to your pathetic pride and still try and claim victory. POS are not supposed to come out of reinforced mode and immediately go back in. Also, stop claiming you were planning to remove them "anyways", because it makes you look like tards. If you really wanted to remove them you would have done it at the first possible opportunity instead of refueling them. Nemo me impune lacessit
Xthril Ranger	Posted - 2005.07.26 11:43:00 - [79] Edited by: Xthril Ranger on 26/07/2005 11:48:30 Originally by: F'nog I still have to ask: Why did you give POS access to a 3-day old recruit? How to live and work with a corporation when you cannot dock at the pos? Either the newcomer have to live another place and alone or he have to have pos access. It is a risk every corp that lives out of a pos have to take if they want to recruit new members. It is one of the places where ccp doesnt provide the right tools to guard themselfs. Guess people have to go back and look at POS as mining platforms , and not homes. edit: alts and spies are part of the game. I don't got the skills or desire to do that , but Eve would be a lesser game if ccp would ban that kind of operations.
DB Preacher	Posted - 2005.07.26 12:29:00 - [80] Originally by: KOTH Fluf Elite Academy and Ranger Corp left FA later not because of BOB, but because we had been contemplating it for along time, as we have wanted to pursue our own destiny. I find it hilarious how many corps put that exact quote up when they leave an alliance that we are attacking with all our force. dbp Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.

dabster	Posted - 2005.07.26 13:16:00 - [81] Edited by: dabster on 26/07/2005 13:16:19 Originally by: Dianabolic NAFnist, with respect, do not talk to us of honour when your alliance has issued orders to renege on any 1v1 that might be agreed. Assumptions are the mother of all ****ups. Sounds like you got your ass handed to you by a jerk, what you just say there is not true though. ___________________________ Chicks dig Brutor's
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.07.26 13:50:00 - [82] Originally by: dabster Edited by: dabster on 26/07/2005 13:16:19 Originally by: Dianabolic NAFnist, with respect, do not talk to us of honour when your alliance has issued orders to renege on any 1v1 that might be agreed. Assumptions are the mother of all ****ups. Sounds like you got your ass handed to you by a jerk, what you just say there is not true though. Has never happened to me, dabster, because I know how lame such an order is. It has unfortunately happened to my wingmates though - I hardly see how accepting a 1v1 in local, it being agreed to and then it being reneged on is "assuming" anything, other than the other pilot will keep their word. But again, who cares, we lost a ship, your guys lost a POS, unlucky. As for the people saying that the pos in 3Z behaved as it should do, let me say this: hahahahah no. It has been confirmed by CCP that that is NOT how it is supposed to behave, that it IS a bug and, let me tell u this, we had eyes on BOTH pos's at ALL times whilst one counted down from 2 hours to nought and the ONLY thing that we saw was a hauler warping between them and a pilot ejecting stront from one to the other. Let me say this again for those that are hard of seeing: When a POS is in reinforced mode it is NOT (supposed to be) able to be refueled. That's straight from the mouths of ccp at #eve-chaos. So suck it up boys, when they fix that you better have moved your pos's, because we're coming for them.
Rodney Munch	Posted - 2005.07.26 14:07:00 - [83] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: KOTH Fluf Elite Academy and Ranger Corp left FA later not because of BOB, but because we had been contemplating it for along time, as we have wanted to pursue our own destiny. I find it hilarious how many corps put that exact quote up when they leave an alliance that we are attacking with all our force. dbp Quoted for truth.. Anyway, why the hell are you whining about losing a PoS to game mechanics that are very legit. Spies/Theivery/Deception etc are very much part of this game, get used to it, and the only person to blame for your loss is yourselves for giving a char thats been in your corp for 3 days, PoS access.. Cry me a river.
CrusherDK	Posted - 2005.07.26 14:13:00 - [84] Originally by: DB Preacher Originally by: KOTH Fluf Elite Academy and Ranger Corp left FA later not because of BOB, but because we had been contemplating it for along time, as we have wanted to pursue our own destiny. I find it hilarious how many corps put that exact quote up when they leave an alliance that we are attacking with all our force. dbp reality check? Maybe you guys like to think so, but corps leaving FA by main reason, because FA concuils/chairmens dont even care about Alliance itself. People just dont wanna fight for alliance wich wont provide them anything that will help. Now you can go and continue thinking that corps leaving because you beat them. WTB your Ego Extender II.
DB Preacher	Posted - 2005.07.26 14:24:00 - [85] If it had only happened with 1 alliance then I wouldn't even have commented. But this is the 4th? alliance we've seen this happen too now so, yeah, whatever. dbp Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Blacklight	Posted - 2005.07.26 14:27:00 - [86] Originally by: CrusherDK People just dont wanna fight for alliance wich wont provide them anything that will help. By that reasoning of course fighting has to be occuring in order to bring this flaw in the alliance's make up to the surface, ergo it is not merely a coincidence and there is some cause and effect. Eve Blacklight Style
Dyvim Slorm	Posted - 2005.07.26 14:53:00 - [87] Hmmm, maybe FA should let SGHQ have some of the isk from the passport sales to help make up the loss. There were several billions iirc.
Xtra Bitter	Posted - 2005.07.26 15:11:00 - [88] Maybe just maybe they have already recived help from their friends.
CrusherDK	Posted - 2005.07.26 15:15:00 - [89] Originally by: Blacklight Originally by: CrusherDK People just dont wanna fight for alliance wich wont provide them anything that will help. By that reasoning of course fighting has to be occuring in order to bring this flaw in the alliance's make up to the surface, ergo it is not merely a coincidence and there is some cause and effect. By Alliance not willing to help i meant not only resources. People as well. People who dont care.
Dyvim Slorm	Posted - 2005.07.26 15:22:00 - [90] Originally by: Xtra Bitter Maybe just maybe they have already recived help from their friends. Perhaps. Seriously though, who does get to keep all that ISK, I assume BIG will as it was one of their alts that held the wallet.



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