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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
676
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:36:00 -
[151] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun.
Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall" Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Jaden Li wrote:Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same. You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players? I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.
You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
246
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Posted - 2013.02.19 13:40:00 -
[153] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Takseen wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: In lowsec.
People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable! Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
They appear to be an impediment to pvp activity? Judging by the kill stats on my Starmap atleast. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:40:00 -
[154] - Quote
Thrash Cutter wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:If clones were free would more PvP?
No. My 12mil SP clone cost doesn't stop me from PvPing as much as I would like to. Having to either do dailies or pay cash to PvP on a semi-regularly level does. But then again, what's an MMO without dailies?
Mission running in Eve is ALL about 'dailies'...
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:46:00 -
[155] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Lfod Shi wrote:Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun. Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall"
I think the guy you quoted feels that all Eve pvp is inherently nonconsensual, or something. Like pirates ambushing miners or mission runners. Certainly I'd feel worse doing that then pewpewing wartargets or pirates who have clearly shot other people in the past. Likewise I get more stressed when attacked by a random person compared to a wartarget.
Tis all very interesting psychologically.
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Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:47:00 -
[156] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote: You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
After a certain point, extra SP just adds versatility, not income generation. And yet the clone costs instead of flattening out to match this, balloon enormously. See the chart posted earlier.
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14098
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:51:00 -
[157] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Mag's wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game. You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up. Like I said, you don't understand how SP works in this game.
Also I live in low sec and still think this is a bad mechanic. Seems the only one sucking here is you.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
321
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:53:00 -
[158] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
No.
The cost of the clone is genreally cheap compared to the cost of the implants.
The ISK cost of losing ships and clones is relatively insignificant compared to the profit potential of most in game activities. An hour of carebearing can replace a dozen small ships or a couple large ships.
The people that do not PVP either 1) have no interest in PVP or 2) Really want to avoid being on someone's kill board stats.
Free clones would not change either of these factors. |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:39:00 -
[159] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP
The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3120
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:13:00 -
[160] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3961
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:35:00 -
[161] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
No. The cost of the clone is genreally cheap compared to the cost of the implants. The ISK cost of losing ships and clones is relatively insignificant compared to the profit potential of most in game activities. An hour of carebearing can replace a dozen small ships or a couple large ships. The people that do not PVP either 1) have no interest in PVP or 2) Really want to avoid being on someone's kill board stats. Free clones would not change either of these factors. And yet people who DO PVP are telling you that clone costs are a problem. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:03:00 -
[162] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205451&find=unread
Just need a free ship and free equipment thread; then we can talk more of that fallacy you speak of. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4542
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:31:00 -
[163] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205451&find=unreadJust need a free ship and free equipment thread; then we can talk more of that fallacy you speak of. The fallacy Marlona is referring is your inability to adress her actual post and instead addressing something completely irrelevant. You'll notice, that you continue to do it by linking a thread that isn't about asking for free stuff, but about asking for a shorter delay between jumpclone switches. It's about flexibility in gameplay and unwillingness of people to compromise on their optimal training speed. The cost of implants is still there and so is the risk of losing them.
Not that I mind your inability to properly discuss the issue. It just makes your side of the argument seem more feeble with each post and ensures the future changes to the mechanic are increasingly more likely to favor our view on the issue.
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Kristopher Rocancourt
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:32:00 -
[164] - Quote
clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3966
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:30:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:45:00 -
[166] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: The fallacy Marlona is referring is your inability to adress her actual post and instead addressing something completely irrelevant. You'll notice, that you continue to do it by linking a thread that isn't about asking for free stuff, but about asking for a shorter delay between jumpclone switches. It's about flexibility in gameplay and unwillingness of people to compromise on their optimal training speed. The cost of implants is still there and so is the risk of losing them.
Not that I mind your inability to properly discuss the issue. It just makes your side of the argument seem more feeble with each post and ensures the future changes to the mechanic are increasingly more likely to favor our view on the issue.
Her post was addressed, I'm sorry you can't see past your narrow minded view of things. Keep posting the drivel though. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
755
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:53:00 -
[167] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing.
My assertion: One hold full of ore will easily pay for the average clone cost, with ISK left to burn. Toons with clones costing more than that are experienced enough to have plentiful other sources of income far exceeding the cost* of a new clone. Therefore: Clone costs are NOT in any way a barrier to PvP, nor do Carebears (as a whole) think that they are.
*Unless you're really bad at EVE. Or had your wallet set negative due to being caught at RMT. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3969
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:11:00 -
[168] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
756
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:31:00 -
[169] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Bit of a strawman there, which I propose to toss on the fire. Understandable that you built it - I did supply the raw material.
I never stated you MUST have implants (or must not). I *did* assert that the cost of clones are not a real barrier to PvP. To be fair, however, I do now see your point about the cost of implants being irreleveant, and will concede that you *do* have a valid point there. Irrelevant to the central theme though it may be.
That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP - But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
256
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:35:00 -
[170] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:
That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP - But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted.
If anything the 80m SP guy is likely to have more wealth if he has a 40m SP alt. Or 2 20m SP alts, and so on. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3971
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Bit of a strawman there, which I propose to toss on the fire. Understandable that you built it - I did supply the raw material. It's not a strawman, I'm suggesting that clone costs are analogous to being forced to have implants that do nothing.
silens vesica wrote:[I never stated you MUST have implants (or must not). I *did* assert that the cost of clones are not a real barrier to PvP. To be fair, however, I do now see your point about the cost of implants being irreleveant, and will concede that you *do* have a valid point there. Irrelevant to the central theme though it may be. Your point was that clone costs aren't a barrier to PVP because they're insignificant compared to the cost of implants. I'm explaining that this is still not a good argument because implants are something I CHOOSE to run with. I can undock with cheap implants if I don't want to risk that much, or I can undock with more expensive implants and get the benefit of those while also increasing my risk. With clone costs, I don't really have a choice. I can either undock in my clone (let's say it costs 30M isk, so that's a character between 92.5M and 120M SP) and hope I don't get podded so I don't have to pay the expense, or I can choose to only use more expensive ships that are significantly tankier so my clone isn't as at much of a risk, or I can undock without updating my clone which is for obvious reasons stupid, or I can train alts (which frankly is something I shouldn't be forced to do). Or I can just not undock at all.
silens vesica wrote:That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP And yet, the difference there is a whole 25 million more ISK the 120m SP character has to pay each time they get podded.
silens vesica wrote:But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted. So if I spent the time (paid for the experience of my character, essentially, since time is valuable especially in this game) to train my character, why should I have to pay yet again just so I can hold onto what I gained from the time that I spent on training my character? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
XxRTEKxX
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:47:00 -
[172] - Quote
I would like it to be that there be two types of clones available. Clones that can have implants, if lost then player must reupgrade again as you currently must do. As well as clones that cannot use implants, however if lost, there is no need to upgrade to insure SP.
So if i want to PvP without the risk of losing a pod and having to spend isk to upgrade clone to keep sp, then i hop into a Clone that cannot use implants. Upside:PvP without having to upgrade everytime POD is lost. Downside:Lose the benefit of having implants.
Implant Clones - Upraded to protect sp Disposable Clone- No Implants allowed, but dont need to be upgraded to protect SP.
Or once an implant is plugged into a clone, if pod is lost while implanted, clone must be upgraded. If pod with no implants is lost, then there is no need to upgrade when you wake up in station. |
Hevymetal
Players United Terrorizing Random Rocks
58
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:49:00 -
[173] - Quote
Having a medclone cost fast approaching 40 mil a pop. I would say YES, I would be more apt to PVP if clones were free. I don't mind jumping into a nonimplanted clone to go give a whirl at PVP.
Explain then why I should have to pay 40 mil more ISK then a noob when we are both flying the same 10 mil ISK frig?
I will admit I'm a PVP noob, but why should I be penalized just because I have more SP then my opponent? If I didn't have the additional "Bitter Vet" tax penality and just lost the cost of the ship I was flying I would be alot more willing to accept the fact I will die, I will lose ships and still PVP. At a minimum of 50 mil (clone+ship) per podding, no thanks I'll carebear in hisec.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
756
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 21:29:00 -
[174] - Quote
Hate this - Mult-quoting limits.
James Amril-Kesh wrote: It's not a strawman, I'm suggesting that clone costs are analogous to being forced to have implants that do nothing.
OK, not a strawman, but I still don't think so. It's an ISK sink - a not-unreasonable one.
Quote:Your point was that clone costs aren't a barrier to PVP because they're insignificant compared to the cost of implants. No. It was not. I did, however make the mistake of incuding two seperate arguments in one post (one of which was, frankly and admittedly, off-target), so you are forgiven for the mis-read. OTOH, I ALSO corrected myself, and clarified, so you still lose points.
Quote:With clone costs, I don't really have a choice. I can either undock in my clone (let's say it costs 30M isk, so that's a character between 92.5M and 120M SP) and hope I don't get podded so I don't have to pay the expense, or I can choose to only use more expensive ships that are significantly tankier so my clone isn't as at much of a risk, or I can undock without updating my clone which is for obvious reasons stupid, or I can train alts (which frankly is something I shouldn't be forced to do). And my point being - which I *did* clarify - is that the relative costs to the economic status of disparate-level toons is approximately level. So it's a moot point.
Quote:And yet, the difference there is a whole 25 million more ISK the 120m SP character has to pay each time they get podded. So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point.
Quote:So if I spent the time (paid for the experience of my character, essentially, since time is valuable especially in this game) to train my character, why should I have to pay yet again just so I can hold onto what I gained from the time that I spent on training my character? 'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3974
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 21:37:00 -
[175] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point. That has been particularly discredited several times in this thread. After a certain point there's not really any increase in potential income. Of course this also depends on what your SP is focused on, but as your SP increases your income potential levels off... yet your clone costs increase exponentially. There's a pretty significant disparity here.
silens vesica wrote:'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks. The fix I proposed would potentially increase the isk sink while making it more fair. It would also still cater to your idea that more SP = more potential income, but it wouldn't become ridiculous. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
758
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 22:52:00 -
[176] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point. That has been particularly discredited several times in this thread. After a certain point there's not really any increase in potential income. Of course this also depends on what your SP is focused on, but as your SP increases your income potential levels off... yet your clone costs increase exponentially. There's a pretty significant disparity here. silens vesica wrote:'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks. The fix I proposed would potentially increase the isk sink while making it more fair. It would also still cater to your idea that more SP = more potential income, but it wouldn't become ridiculous. Fairly enough stated. I disagree with your position, but reasonable people might so do.
Here's the real bottom line from my perspective: Folks are trying to bribe people to PvP by altering the costs, which are, I assert, not a real barrier. Bribes don't work. None of the hair-brained schemes I've seen bruited about here in GD will work to get more people into PvP because they miss the central cold, hard, obeservable fact: Those who want to PvP are already so doing. They find a way. They deal with the costs. They accept the risks, and they go out and pew-pew.
Altering the costs will not increase PvP by anything more than a smidgin, because those who actually want to PvP are already out there finding ways to meet the relatively minor costs. In my opinion, those people who claim clone costs as a reason for avoiding PvP are NOT truthfully interested in PvP in the first place - or they're making excuses - or are simply whinging about minor ISK sinks - or are horribly bad at EVE - or have simply missed the point.
There is one exception to this - Those corporations and alliances (Red v. Blue, EVE Uni, I'm looking at you!) who actively *teach* PvP as a mission *do* raise the numbers of Pew-Pew pilots. But even then, they only manage to recruit those as are interested.
Want more people doing the pew-pew? Get more people to log in. Clone costs are NOT the reason people don't subscribe, nor are they the reason subscribers don't log in.
As for the discrediting, I've seen a number of anecdotes. I've also seen a number of assertions - none backed up any better than mine. I don't see data. Until such time as reasonably complete data becomes available, I propose we retire to our respective corners. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3975
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Posted - 2013.02.19 23:05:00 -
[177] - Quote
I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you that clone costs prevent people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Kristopher Rocancourt
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
42
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Posted - 2013.02.20 12:14:00 -
[178] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward?
if you do not have implants, you need to reassess your ability to play this game correctly.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3990
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:07:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? if you do not have implants, you need to reassess your ability to play this game correctly. That has **** all to do with the argument here. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
763
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:09:00 -
[180] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you on clone costs not preventing people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Fair point.
Care to start a thread on it? Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
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