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Pewty McPew
Pillage Plunder And Rape Industries
188
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
|
Hixeppa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
No. If you've reached 100M SP and are still pissing yourself over a little clone cost, you were never going to be a pvper. Carebear on. |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
ehh... probably some? Though I imagine we'd be seeing rookie ship fleets more often mostly more than anything. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
463
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Consequences. If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
797
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't think I would pvp more but I would probably fly cheaper ships. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid. |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
337
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agreed clone reactivation costs / upgrade costs are total BS and could very well be removed, ISK can be sunk elsewhere. Tying additional costs to character age is indeed stupid. I truly dread the day I decide to train a char on the same account for this very reason. I like my main and I'd prefer to keep investing in it instead of spreading my attention over multiple characters.
Disagreeing implants are an issue per se, empty clones can be the norm. It's players advocating rushing your SP as fast as possible that are the problem causing people to rage over implant loss. Grinding up for a JC for a single corp of your choice isn't that much grind, especially when you are in a player corp that's newbie-friendly and lets you tag along L3 / L4 missions. |
Mathrin
Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems
60
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
At over 50 mil SP I pay 13 mil a clone. Free clones would not effect my pvp at all. Heck I pod myself sometimes just to get back to jita for a few minutes. |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2459
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 23:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
First they complain about implants, then they complain about clone costs. they will always come up with an excuse as to why they can't pvp. Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Renzo Ruderi
State War Academy Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Hasn't this been brought up, like, six thousand times before? |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
133
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
now six thousand and one |
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Ckra Trald
Stellar Essence STELLAR CONSTELLATION
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
when you have a ton of sp you could pay for an alt for pvp
nah
but really, reduced clone prices would be reasonable for higher SP players... We must embrace pain and use it to fuel our POS |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Renzo Ruderi wrote:Hasn't this been brought up, like, six thousand times before?
Enough where they're looking into changing something about it *shrugs* so I guess we'll see what happens? |
Austin McLaren
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:26:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have avoided/missed pvp beacuse of my implants, nothing else. Jump clones are great but the timer is a big issue. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1960
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
I already PvP in 5 to 30 million ISK frigates with a billion ISK implant set in my head... if I get podded the clone cost is the LAST thing I'll be mad about. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4496
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
most of the problem with pvp is targets
eve pvp is largely about forcing someone to fight because people like fights they can win and people tend not to agree with those
so what you need is either involuntary targets (ratters, etc) that get ganked, or things you can threaten to force fights (pocos, towers, sov)
for more pvp increase the involuntary targets or the things to threaten to create fights |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:most of the problem with pvp is targets
eve pvp is largely about forcing someone to fight because people like fights they can win and people tend not to agree with those
so what you need is either involuntary targets (ratters, etc) that get ganked, or things you can threaten to force fights (pocos, towers, sov)
for more pvp increase the involuntary targets or the things to threaten to create fights
Not far off. It also is about the value to them compared to the risk. If its more expensive for them to defend then it is to just let it go, that drops off the number of people willing to fight as well leaving the most loyal or those who just like fighting. The other thing is also, once things look hopeless, bam, fighting stops. No reason to keep suiciding your ships pointlessly. Overall though, yeah, has to be something to fight over and people believing they have a chance of victory or fun to maximize the number of people you get. Hated this sometimes in other games. A couple painful losses and people suddenly all disappear. Seems to happen little less often in EVE though. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Austin McLaren wrote:I have avoided/missed pvp beacuse of my implants, nothing else. Jump clones are great but the timer is a big issue.
yeah I agree. i'm sure there's good reasons for it but it kind of points to... alts! the JC with no timer.
I started a new character for PvP. just as well I get melted constantly. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4499
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote: Not far off. It also is about the value to them compared to the risk. If its more expensive for them to defend then it is to just let it go, that drops off the number of people willing to fight as well leaving the most loyal or those who just like fighting. The other thing is also, once things look hopeless, bam, fighting stops. No reason to keep suiciding your ships pointlessly. Overall though, yeah, has to be something to fight over and people believing they have a chance of victory or fun to maximize the number of people you get. Hated this sometimes in other games. A couple painful losses and people suddenly all disappear. Seems to happen little less often in EVE though.
that happens all the time actually, it's basically how sov wars are won
with dominion sov it's essentially impossible to grind a region against opposition: the amount of time and money you have to spend is intolerable. what you do is basically beat down your opponent often enough they stop coming out to play, so you can grind the region without any effective opposition
no wars in eve are really won anymore because the defender cannot win: they're won because the defender can't convince enough people to come out and defend, and then individuals and corporations start fleeing the sinking ship and the alliance itself collapses |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Aren Madigan wrote: Not far off. It also is about the value to them compared to the risk. If its more expensive for them to defend then it is to just let it go, that drops off the number of people willing to fight as well leaving the most loyal or those who just like fighting. The other thing is also, once things look hopeless, bam, fighting stops. No reason to keep suiciding your ships pointlessly. Overall though, yeah, has to be something to fight over and people believing they have a chance of victory or fun to maximize the number of people you get. Hated this sometimes in other games. A couple painful losses and people suddenly all disappear. Seems to happen little less often in EVE though.
that happens all the time actually, it's basically how sov wars are won with dominion sov it's essentially impossible to grind a region against opposition: the amount of time and money you have to spend is intolerable. what you do is basically beat down your opponent often enough they stop coming out to play, so you can grind the region without any effective opposition no wars in eve are really won anymore because the defender cannot win: they're won because the defender can't convince enough people to come out and defend, and then individuals and corporations start fleeing the sinking ship and the alliance itself collapses
Fair enough. What is the point of Sov right now anyways, besides controlling the region? Are the more valuable items supposed to be out there, or is there something else out there? Or is that a big part of the problem? There being nothing out there that you can't get just as easily in non-sov null? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4499
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Fair enough. What is the point of Sov right now anyways, besides controlling the region? Are the more valuable items supposed to be out there, or is there something else out there? Or is that a big part of the problem? There being nothing out there that you can't get just as easily in non-sov null? sov gives you stations, and upgrades
with control over the only docking anywhere nearby you have a much better ability to control that area, and things like ratting upgrades make it better to live there. much better than living in npc 0.0 where someone can supply their ganking out of your home station. for regions with moons, it's very difficult to hold the moons without holding the sov, so by controlling the local stations and sov you have a significant leg up on controlling the moons (and if you can't, you're about to lose your sov)
but it is fairly broken for a lot of reasons and sov conflict itself is horribly broken |
|
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
285
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Actually clone cost should be increased.
Was already lowered 2-3 years ago. In the mean time more ISK faucet were added to the game and everyone is far ritcher. Clone cost should be scaled (increased) periodically in relation to this. To be podded today is nothing in respect of 2-3 years ago, this have to be fixed.
And, yes, is something to worry about. And no, if one doesnt feel to face a risk (in a game) simply should stay away, is not mandatory. But please do not ask to trivialize the whole game on this.
|
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 00:55:00 -
[22] - Quote
Hixeppa wrote:No. If you've reached 100M SP and are still pissing yourself over a little clone cost, you were never going to be a pvper. Carebear on.
if he had decided to hop straight in he wouldn't pay 30M for 'mistakes'
most of my 'mistakes' have costed less than 100K and I regard them as a free teleport to my next ship. I often demand to be podded though very politely. |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:it is fairly broken though, there's not really much upgradability, reasons to have your name on the map besides just having it on the map, and the sov conflict is horribly unfun for all involved
I assume its fairly grindy? |
Gianath
Gallentian Legitimate Businessmen
87
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
I would PVP more if insurance covered Tech 2 hulls.
I was good with T1 hulls 3 years ago. It just seems silly that the 'elite' ships I spent years skilling up for in PVE can't be flown into low-sec uncloaked or else it's like throwing away 60-120 mil ISK to whatever gangs or fittings which I haven't specifically prepped to counter. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4499
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:22:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:Weaselior wrote:it is fairly broken though, there's not really much upgradability, reasons to have your name on the map besides just having it on the map, and the sov conflict is horribly unfun for all involved I assume its fairly grindy? yeah
the ehp you need to kill to take a region is absurd, in the tens of millions
the only way to do it is with unsupported supercarriers, but you can't do that against resistance (they will get ganked), so against resistance you need to muster giant fleets for each and every timer for each and every system and grind down the hub, tcu, and stations
it's a crazy amount of work |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:Weaselior wrote:it is fairly broken though, there's not really much upgradability, reasons to have your name on the map besides just having it on the map, and the sov conflict is horribly unfun for all involved I assume its fairly grindy? yeah the ehp you need to kill to take a region is absurd, in the tens of millions the only way to do it is with unsupported supercarriers, but you can't do that against resistance (they will get ganked), so against resistance you need to muster giant fleets for each and every timer for each and every system and grind down the hub, tcu, and stations it's a crazy amount of work
Sheesh.. I can understand needing a lot of work and wanting protection from night capping, but grinds are never fun. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
80
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Players should be able to opt into permadeath; no access to the clone network.
Benefits include: You don't show up in local. You don't show up in other peoples killmails. Gate guns ignore you.
Anyone think of other benefits to not having a CONCORD transponder implanted in the base of your skull? (which is how I imagine things like instantly appearing in local or the clone network must function)?
|
Evei Shard
166
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 01:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Players should be able to opt into permadeath; no access to the clone network.
Benefits include: You don't show up in local. You don't show up in other peoples killmails. Gate guns ignore you.
Anyone think of other benefits to not having a CONCORD transponder implanted in the base of your skull? (which is how I imagine things like instantly appearing in local or the clone network must function)?
Or at least introduce information integrity factors with a new "infomorph integrity" skill. Basically, you have x% chance of losing a given amount of skillpoints upon being podded. The higher the integrity skill is trained, the less chance you have of taking clone damage.
Just because we are immortal, it does not mean we are invulnerable Profit favors the prepared |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
80
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 02:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Players should be able to opt into permadeath; no access to the clone network.
Benefits include: You don't show up in local. You don't show up in other peoples killmails. Gate guns ignore you.
Anyone think of other benefits to not having a CONCORD transponder implanted in the base of your skull? (which is how I imagine things like instantly appearing in local or the clone network must function)?
Or at least introduce information integrity factors with a new "infomorph integrity" skill. Basically, you have x% chance of losing a given amount of skillpoints upon being podded. The higher the integrity skill is trained, the less chance you have of taking clone damage. Just because we are immortal, it does not mean we are invulnerable
Clone degradation would be awesome too.
I mean its like you take a copy of a copy of a copy. Eventually you wind up like the Asgard.
|
Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 02:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Much more. ALSO I noticed clones double charge us. I paid x amount of isk for a clone after the last time I was podded. Then, after being podded again, I was charged the cost of the clone. What's up with that? There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
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Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 02:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
To further my previous' post meaning and making it easier to comprehend for the reader, I'll say this; It's one thing to buy the clone when you have the isk and do very safe activities during the times you don't.
However, during the course of activity between poddings, money fluctuates. When you're low you don't wanna be micromanaging your wallet to make sure you have the isk to cover the second charge. One charge and one charge only please There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
Novah Soul
SASN Mining Corp. Grand Stellar Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
Clone costs haven't been the issue for me. It has moreso been that friggin 24 hour jump clone timer... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3112
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
If clone cost was a hurdle to PvP, why aren't there more people PvPing in sub-10M SP clones?
Use that 100M SP clone for carebearing it up in hisec flying L4 missions in your Kronos. Use the 10M SP clone for cheap laughs in lowsec, flying Reapers and painting people to death. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3941
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hixeppa wrote:No. If you've reached 100M SP and are still pissing yourself over a little clone cost, you were never going to be a pvper. Carebear on. More insight into PVP from Science and Trade Institute. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3941
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 04:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Clone degradation would be awesome too.
No, it would not. It would be ******* awful game design and you should feel bad for even suggesting it. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
RichtPaul
Shadow Industries I
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 05:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
If clones were free!!! :D
Man I'd PVP in frigates and then when I died I would orbit in my pod around the enemy :D
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
If clones were free how would we compete with older players in the race for skill points except hoping they unsubscribe, die in tech 3 ships, or die without an adequate clone?
Wait... what if I died in an inadequate clone? D:
Oh no I didn't think this through!!!! The death I wished upon other pod pilots IS ACTUALLY HURTING ME. I see the error of my ways now! Free clones for everybody! |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 05:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Clone degradation would be awesome too.
No, it would not. It would be ******* awful game design and you should feel bad for even suggesting it.
What? Is the risk factor of permadeath or actually standing to lose skillpoints too much for the hard core pvpers of Eve?
|
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 05:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
RichtPaul wrote:If clones were free!!! :D Man I'd PVP in frigates and then when I died I would orbit in my pod around the enemy :D WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE If clones were free how would we compete with older players in the race for skill points except hoping they unsubscribe, die in tech 3 ships, or die without an adequate clone? Wait... what if I died in an inadequate clone? D: Oh no I didn't think this through!!!! The death I wished upon other pod pilots IS ACTUALLY HURTING ME. I see the error of my ways now! Free clones for everybody!
Pods should have an AoE Doomsday self destruct!
|
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
28
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone
Yeah actually I hadn't thought of that and I bet a lot of the "clones r expensive!!!111" whiners didn't either!
|
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3073
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
No, but it would change what kinds of roams I'd be willing to undertake on my "elder" characters. As it stands, I have alts for null sec roams.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
No. Anyone who has 100 million SP and still doesn't PvP is never going to voluntarily PvP no matter what. I do think clone costs should be lowered though. In the beginning it scales with your capability to make money, but at a certain point your close cost keeps going up even though you're making as much ISK as you ever will. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
828
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
- re. 'a person with that much sp should be a earning lots of isk anyway': some people simply hate earning isk or aren't that great. these people shouldn't be prevented from pvping on their character altogether (note intentionally risking an insufficient clone is NOT an option to anyone), because that sucks arse
instead, a poor character should be limited to flying in cheap ships, and a person unwilling to put isk on the table should be limited to flying cheap ships
currently high-sp characters can be (depends on the person's mindset) practically prevented from flying in the cheapest ships such as frigates (just to stress this, prevented from flying the cheapest ships) if bubbles even might be around because the cost of a naked clone makes the cost of flying that cheap ship unjustifiable
I don't believe anyone should have any reservation about undocking the cheapest ship in the game, or at least people should have less reservations about flying cheap ships than expensive ones
- re. 'it's an isk sink': players shouldn't have to have a ****** game experience just to balance some numbers they can't help themselves. if the economy needs a balance and one solution makes people's game awful, it is not a good solution |
Lipbite
Express Hauler
616
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
TL;DR: while PvP cost *any* money most players won't do it willingly. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2004
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
178
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Imo what hurts pvp the most isn't clone costs, it's attribute implants. People plug in +4s or +5s into their primary clones, then they're afraid losing hundreds of millions each time they are podded, but they refuse to downgrade to a pvp clone, because that'll slow their skilling. It's just another one of those silly mental barriers to breach. |
Daisai
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
75
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
The clone cost is not really a problem and wont effect the amount of pvp in the game. What might effect the amount of pvp in eve is the jumpclone cooldown, if they lower the cooldown on that or create a isk sink in that then that would result in more pvp. Something like 500mil isk to reset jumpclone timer.
That would result in more pvp and remove some of the isk in the game which would lower the inflation. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
828
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Then again, by risking a higher cost ship, you essentially nullify the difference in clone cost. Any ship can be destroyed if the enemy gets a drop on you, so it doesn't really matter. Plus, imo people choosing more expensive ships is a good thing, else the entire pvp would turn into oversized RvB brawl. people currently choose expensive ships because they're generally more powerful. that's not going to change. but people feeling as if flying a cheaper or less survivable ship is not a practical or justifiable option due to the cost of replacing a clone is not a good thing, as it restricts their choices and restricts their gameplay
btw in eve online 'not a practical option' and 'not a justifiable option' are the same as 'not an option' for a player due to real loss |
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
229
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
Roime wrote:If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
Based on my experience in the most recent RvB FFA where obvious throwaway alts, using FREE ships, would still pucey around in long range ships just whoring and running away. I mean serisoulsy?
In conclusion, the only people that would seek out pvp are the ones that do it currently. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3107
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 07:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hello thread.
I wrote an article about clone costs. Ignore the insurance part though.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
Roime wrote:If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
This I can definitely say yes to, but for all the wrong reasons.. Insert here endless suicide bumrushes that get old real quick. |
Karig'Ano Keikira
State War Academy Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Don't think so, if anything, implant costs are much more of a problem. Of course, if you have 100m+ skill points and no cash for new clones, something is wrong anyway. |
Alice Saki
Suddenly Spaced Out Suddenly Spaceships.
30421
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 08:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Fight in Low Sec, you Only lose your Pod to Stupidity I lack any Moral Fiber :D |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4510
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:13:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Tub Chil wrote:No it would not, clones are dirt cheap. single +4 implant is more expensive than clone Yeah actually I hadn't thought of that and I bet a lot of the "clones r expensive!!!111" whiners didn't either!
Ofcourse we did. The clone cost system isn't the only or the worst barrier to more PvP. It's just one more unnecessary barrier and a bad mechanic on it's own. Being married to your implants is another one, that should be fixed by removing the long timers from local clone switching. It's just that these issues are usually discussed separately. The medical clone issue justifies a change on it's own. The fact there are other changes, that would also help and even be more effective in encouraging more PvP don't change that need in any way.
Would free medical clones cause more PvP? Naturally it would. Everything that lowers the cost will increase PvP, but that isn't the question to ask, since on it's own it isn't a reason to make such changes. Good reasons for the change are, that the current mechanic unnecessarily inhibits certain kinds of PvP and the costs become increasingly harder to justify from gameplay and customer loyalty perspective.
The clone cost of a fully skilled frigate pilot is a few hundred thousand ISK. Why do some people need to pay up to 90 million ISK minimum for the privilage of getting podded in one, when those extra skillpoints didn't bring them better performance? Implants can be much more expensive, but it's a realistic option to not use any. Not using an up to date medical clone isn't.
Maybe you say higher SP means higher income earning potential, so the cost is justified. Two problems with that. Initially this is so, but that progression stops fairly quickly, while the cost keep on heavily increasing. This means the cost isn't actually tied to your ability to earn ISK. It likely keeps increasing the way it does just because at the time the system was created no one gave any thought, if it worked at our current SP levels. Secondly, I thought we were playing a sandbox game where I can play as I choose. If I'm not dedicating my time to learn more efficient ways to grind for ISK and want to keep advancing a single character, am I playing the game wrong? Why can't I choose to fly cheap and have the ability to largely ignore the chore of grinding ISK to keep playing?
You can also look at it in a different way by asking another question. What good does the current implementation of the mechanic bring to the game? A minor ISK sink, that is easily replaceable and tranferrable to a place were it's PvP neutral? To me that isn't a good enough reason to justify any of the negatives, so I think the system needs to be revamped to address the issues. |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
254
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:16:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nope. Once you get to the point of meaningful clone costs, you'll be making far more isk.
Clones and implants don't "inhibit PvP", they add a baseline of risk to the equation, which is a core tenant of what Eve is about.
edit: You made a well constructed post above me that definitely lays out your ideals well. Still, I find it hard to support taking more risk out of PvP when isk is so easy to get in today's eve. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
263
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
I've said it before and I will say it again. Let Sov players have the clone cost upgrade like FW! We're the ones who are paying for new clones the most any way (you know, that whole bubble's are only nullsec?)
Let HighSec stay as it is, if you want to play in safer space you pay more for clones (which you shouldn't be losing outside of smartbombs and lag) LowSec have their discounts and are close for HighSec users NullSec get the same as LowSec if the system/outpost is upgraded. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
I think if you want to encourage pvp then lowering the costs of ships would be a good place to start! How about everyone move to Sisi?
|
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
I'd PVP a LOT more. I love frigates, and most of my 65mil ISK clone is wasted when I'm in a frigate, and the cost is unjustifiable.
I'd probably be just as effective at flying it in my 15mil alt clone, BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE MY ALT. I want all my PVP to show up under my main character.
I should not be punished for wanting this. It makes no sense at all. Give people the choice, get more fights!
Think of it this way, in another ten years of eve NONE of you will be pvping. Unless you fancy 500mil-1bil a clone just for losing a T1 frig in null to a dictor bubble which will happen on a DAILY basis if you are active.
Is that where you want eve to be? |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3107
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
mechtech wrote:Nope. Once you get to the point of meaningful clone costs, you'll be making far more isk.
Clones and implants don't "inhibit PvP", they add a baseline of risk to the equation, which is a core tenant of what Eve is about.
edit: You made a well constructed post above me that definitely lays out your ideals well. Still, I find it hard to support taking more risk out of PvP when isk is so easy to get in today's eve. You could not possibly be more wrong.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
ORLICZ
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
no. !!!!
why we killing stuff? cos its cost isk ? why should bother killing free stuff ?
clones should cost more for +100mil sp chars ( if u lower cost of pods, we just start using them to move yourself trough expresspod) |
|
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 09:48:00 -
[61] - Quote
The baseline is too high in that case. Why should it cost me an extra 65mil every time I lose a 10mil interceptor? That's like having to leave a $65 service charge to eat a meal that costs $10.
Move the ISK sink elsewhere, and for people that actually have the money that needs to be burned. Not every 156mil-200mil sp pvp pilot has a pile of isk, or is amazing at pvp by default. Some of them can't afford such a steep baseline, perhaps they can't play 23 and 23/24ths of each day grinding isk like some people can.
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
286
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 10:18:00 -
[62] - Quote
Acac Sunflyier wrote:Much more. ALSO I noticed clones double charge us. I paid x amount of isk for a clone after the last time I was podded. Then, after being podded again, I was charged the cost of the clone. What's up with that?
Uh?! What do you mean? When you get podded your current clone/body is destoryed and you wake up in the clone you previously stored in the medical station.
Then you pay (if you want) to buy a new backup clone stored.
|
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
598
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 10:20:00 -
[63] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
I do not think so. Just don-¦t get podded.
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
La'Krul
Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 10:22:00 -
[64] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
My opinion - clone cost has no bearing on anything in the game. Just a minor inconvenience.
Now, implant costs though are prohibitive and prevent more people from getting into using them. Then again, there are always those who can afford to run around in Snakes and Slaves all day long. |
Borlag Crendraven
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
305
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 10:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
I don't see clone cost as any kind of issue. Sure, I'm still only closing in at 35M, but at the same time my pod is still generally more valuable than the average PvP'rs (or that 100M SP players) thanks to the implants and hardwires I'm always using for everything, including PvP which is what I play this game for. On top of that, if and when I lose my pod, I always risk being locked out of my home entirely, which directly locks me out of my main source of income while at it.
The way I see it is that it all boils down to one thing only, what ISK itself means to you. To me its an mean to and end, not a goal of any kind. I couldn't care less if I had only pennies in my wallet, as long as I have enough to replace the boats I lose or I have the replacement boats already bought. If I end up losing too much on any given week or month, I simply resort to doing some of the various things that make more isk, instead of lose more of it. Or possibly fly cheaper for a week or two. Outside that, ISK to me means absolutely nothing. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14088
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 10:58:00 -
[66] - Quote
I do not think we should get free ones, as this would simply mean free jumping around the Eve universe. The only issue I have with it is balance and choice. I can choose which ship, modules, ammo and implants etc. I use, but I have no real choice regarding my clone. At the moment, it seems like a punishment for longevity.
The ones that are mostly affected by this, are null sec players. They should have a as cheap choice to use, if they want to simply fly ceptors, or frigs.
As far as implant cost is concerned, either use them for PvP or don't. But that is always a choice.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote: Just don-¦t get podded.
As if you have a choice when someone drops a bubble in the middle of a fleet fight.
Oh wait, you are a lowsec pvper, or just plain arrogant, nevermind.
|
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
I seem to remember seeing cheap medical clones as a Faction Warfare benefit, which is nice. Lowsec doesn't have bubbles or dictors to worry about. I think the real problem is in nullsec for those that want to pvp actively and have the option of flying a cheap whelp ship.
Do we need some kind of medical clone sov benefit? Or perhaps the ability to create cheap medical clones on a Titan or Rorqual or something similar? What about NPC nullsec stations offering reduced rates on clones? Just some random ideas. |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
897
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:36:00 -
[69] - Quote
Hixeppa wrote:No. If you've reached 100M SP and are still pissing yourself over a little clone cost, you were never going to be a pvper. Carebear on.
The usual idiot reply. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:44:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jaden Li wrote:I seem to remember seeing cheap medical clones as a Faction Warfare benefit, which is nice. Lowsec doesn't have bubbles or dictors to worry about. I think the real problem is in nullsec for those that want to pvp actively and have the option of flying a cheap whelp ship.
it's also a problem for people getting started at PvP because you just are going to lose pods due to disorientation.
but yeah the main reason I don't like it is it just says cheaper, smaller hulls are worthless and I hate that. |
|
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1843
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 11:48:00 -
[71] - Quote
Free? no.
But the truth is, Eve is the only MMO that punishes players for being loyal or keeps playing after a long time. It's not even a choice (so don't even talk about "consquences" in this context"), the longer you play, the more sp you have, the more expensive it gets. More SP also doesn't correlate to players ability to afford more expensive clone (heck, my 2mil sp alt makes far more isk than this char). Funny eh? "I'd rather have other players-áget shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave |
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 12:08:00 -
[72] - Quote
...waiting to see how long it takes before the 'stop training your skills' brigade show up. We shouldn't have to start a new character either, starting over every ten years is not the answer to this problem. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5268
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 12:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jaden Li wrote:...waiting to see how long it takes before the 'stop training your skills' brigade show up. We shouldn't have to start a new character either, starting over every ten years is not the answer to this problem.
You arnt starting over. I am about to do exactly this to keep my clone cost at 20 million. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 12:49:00 -
[74] - Quote
if players are using alts to get around a game mechanic then it probably isn't a very good mechanic. llook at how much whinging there is about NPC alts for example. why blame the behaviour and defend the causes of the behaviour? players have every incentive to split SP across alts and carebear with the ones with few combat skills trained. |
kari bourza
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 13:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
I would rather like to see a reduction of jump clone timer to 12 hours, because 24 hours is kind of BS |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
81
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 13:46:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ankles McGlashan wrote:if players are using alts to get around a game mechanic then it probably isn't a very good mechanic. llook at how much whinging there is about NPC corp alts for example. why blame the behaviour and defend the causes of the behaviour? players have every incentive to split SP across alts and carebear with the ones with few combat skills trained.
Judging from the things CCP say I'd expect they could declare it an exploit! Oh wait, unless its a big cash cow for them...
|
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:02:00 -
[77] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Judging from the things CCP say I'd expect they could declare it an exploit! Oh wait, unless its a big cash cow for them...
maybe, though i only run one account with indy and trading toons. and a trading toon can be completely no skill if you don't care about fees.
ideally I'd just want to have one toon with a bunch of clones, some cheap, some augmented and a more reasonable timer that lets me jump when i log in at the same time every night. And have a pay to break the timer function as well so you can get back somewhere in a hurry but for a hefty price. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
577
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:15:00 -
[78] - Quote
Roime wrote:If ships were free, would there be more pvp?
By the looks of SISI when it's up, I don't think so.
So where's the real problem?
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:34:00 -
[79] - Quote
Jaden Li wrote:
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption.
Yes, change the mechanics of the game to suit Character Bazaar bought bads and people who log in for an hour a week. |
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:44:00 -
[80] - Quote
Maybe the game should be changed in favor of the noobs rather than the 10 year loyal customers instead then? 1 hour a week is such a strawman argument.
It's imbalanced and needs to be fixed. it's been done before, and it's already been acknowledged recently. Time for a rebalance is all. Hopefully CCP will get to it once they are finished with this round of ship balancing. |
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
578
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 14:45:00 -
[81] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Jaden Li wrote:
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption.
Yes, change the mechanics of the game to suit Character Bazaar bought bads and people who log in for an hour a week.
Care to explain the "people who log in for an hour a week" part please?
As far as you are concerned their money is as good as yours, why do you feel you should have any sort of privilege for whatever unreasonable reason? -by unreasonable read: CCP cares less how much time someone spends playing their game, sub price is the same.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:07:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Jaden Li wrote:
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption.
Yes, change the mechanics of the game to suit Character Bazaar bought bads and people who log in for an hour a week. Care to explain the " people who log in for an hour a week" part please? As far as you are concerned their money is as good as yours, why do you feel you should have any sort of privilege for whatever unreasonable reason? -by unreasonable read: CCP cares less how much time someone spends playing their game, sub price is the same.
EVE, unlike other generic MMO's have a different skill leveling system, you dont actually have to play to skill up. My opinion is that it's better to reward people who actually play the game and contribute to the massively part in MMO, than the skill point bears who don't. So in essence, the clone costs actively encourage you to actually play EVE. The skill point system is more of a 'broken game' mechanic than clone costs, in terms of gameplay.
|
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
421
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:15:00 -
[83] - Quote
People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5271
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:16:00 -
[84] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free.
Implants is my bet. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
implants and jump clones make clone costs unnecessary as they are a far superior means of managing risk and reward. |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
286
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:34:00 -
[86] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. Implants is my bet.
They did it already: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205451&find=unread
|
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
286
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:35:00 -
[87] - Quote
What about the barrier for ammo and repair costs?
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
579
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:41:00 -
[88] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. Implants is my bet.
You can choose to pvp with implants or not, this is not a factor preventing "some" from pvp.
Jump clone timer and POD cost, are.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
900
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:49:00 -
[89] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Jaden Li wrote:
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption.
Yes, change the mechanics of the game to suit Character Bazaar bought bads and people who log in for an hour a week. Care to explain the " people who log in for an hour a week" part please? As far as you are concerned their money is as good as yours, why do you feel you should have any sort of privilege for whatever unreasonable reason? -by unreasonable read: CCP cares less how much time someone spends playing their game, sub price is the same. EVE, unlike other generic MMO's, has a different skill leveling system, you dont actually have to play to skill up. My opinion is that it's better to reward people who actually play the game and contribute to the massively part in MMO, than the skill point bears who don't. So in essence, the clone costs actively encourage you to actually play EVE. The skill point system is more of a 'broken game' mechanic than clone costs, in terms of gameplay.
Tell that to Mittani as far as I know he hardly logs in and according to you does feck all for EVE????
It's the one thing I love about EVE more than anything is that even though I can only log in for 5-6 hours a week I can still do the same as some no life fectard who spends all his time playing this. How about rewarding the people who have spent money playing this for years and years by "not" having a cost that only hurts players who have been loyal to the brand.
Muppet. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4518
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 15:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:What about the barrier for ammo and repair costs? That's unfair too Such things are pretty much the definition of fair, since everyone who pays more or less the same amount gains the same benefit and the cost doesn't vary according to irrelevant stats. Ships, equipment, implants, boosters and similar things also provide direct functional benefit for the investment. They only make the additional cost of medical clones look even more redundant and bad, since they already provide the cost for PvP. They're just a vastly better mechanic for doing so, because there the cost correlates directly with the benefits gained and not with some other irrelevant stat. Thanks to them there is no need to have people pay through the medical clone mechanic too, so the entire mechanic could even be removed entirely without any serious negative side effects to the game. |
|
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:04:00 -
[91] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Jaden Li wrote:
Wealth and PVP Skill are not proportional to a player's skillpoints. Exponentially increasing clone costs is a broken game design based on this false assumption.
Yes, change the mechanics of the game to suit Character Bazaar bought bads and people who log in for an hour a week. Care to explain the " people who log in for an hour a week" part please? As far as you are concerned their money is as good as yours, why do you feel you should have any sort of privilege for whatever unreasonable reason? -by unreasonable read: CCP cares less how much time someone spends playing their game, sub price is the same. EVE, unlike other generic MMO's, has a different skill leveling system, you dont actually have to play to skill up. My opinion is that it's better to reward people who actually play the game and contribute to the massively part in MMO, than the skill point bears who don't. So in essence, the clone costs actively encourage you to actually play EVE. The skill point system is more of a 'broken game' mechanic than clone costs, in terms of gameplay. Tell that to Mittani as far as I know he hardly logs in and according to you does feck all for EVE???? It's the one thing I love about EVE more than anything is that even though I can only log in for 5-6 hours a week I can still do the same as some no life fectard who spends all his time playing this. How about rewarding the people who have spent money playing this for years and years by "not" having a cost that only hurts players who have been loyal to the brand. Muppet.
Sure, lets remove all Isk sinks for the entitled, loyal players. Just because they're special. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
421
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:09:00 -
[92] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:baltec1 wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. Implants is my bet. You can choose to pvp with implants or not, this is not a factor preventing "some" from pvp. Jump clone timer and POD cost, are.
I'm almost on 90mil and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode.
Mainly because I go out with the expectation that I'll make more of their stuff die before I die. That and the isk coming in from that covers losses |
Gotch Urarse
110
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:14:00 -
[93] - Quote
I'm on the fence regarding clone costs. But I did think of a sort of compromise. In going with the time honored argument that a 100mil character doesn't have a 10 fold advantage over a 10mil character, due to skills being a pool of which only some are active at any given time, why not make the clone cost reflect this?
It would effectively be all supporting skills, but when you get to skill categories like Drones, Gunnery, Missile Launcher Operation and especially Spaceship Command, base the cost of the 'highest combination'. To use a Spaceship Command as an example, a new pilot's 'highest combination' could be Spaceship Command IV + Destroyers IV. Sure, he may have his a racial Cruisers to II, a couple racial Frigates to II or IV. I did a quick tally and where I set in my skill plan, it wouldn't effect me but in 3 to 4 days, it would save me from having to upgrade right away.
Sure, for a newer player, their total SP may very close to their 'usable' SP, but as they mature, it starts to balance out. Maybe the above scheme isn't the best way to calculate 'usable' SP. Perhaps there is a better way that a more experienced eye could see.
tl;dr base the clone cost off the best pool of skills that could be utilized, not the total. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:16:00 -
[94] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:I'm almost on 90mil and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode.
what did your clones cost when you started out? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3951
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Clone degradation would be awesome too.
No, it would not. It would be ******* awful game design and you should feel bad for even suggesting it. What? Is the risk factor of permadeath or actually standing to lose skillpoints too much for the hard core pvpers of Eve? Stop trolling. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
Ankles McGlashan wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:I'm almost on 90mil and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode.
what did your clones cost when you started out?
no idea, never really paid any mind to it.
That said, I'll also happily suicide jump myself across space for a fight if need be, even if I have a head full of implants.
I can always get more isk |
Irya Boone
TIPIAKS
186
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:25:00 -
[97] - Quote
to answer the original question : NO
But But IF no loosing skillpoints after mass poding then there will be more pvp sure Improve C2 class WH More anos more signs ...RENAME null sec system With the name Of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It xill be awesome-á |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
900
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:25:00 -
[98] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote: Sure, lets remove all Isk sinks for the entitled, loyal players. Just because they're special.
Ahh so I basically made your argument invalid you're now changing your argument to something else ...ok keep trying. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Ankles McGlashan
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:34:00 -
[99] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:Ankles McGlashan wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:I'm almost on 90mil and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode.
what did your clones cost when you started out? no idea, never really paid any mind to it. That said, I'll also happily suicide jump myself across space for a fight if need be, even if I have a head full of implants. I can always get more isk
Aye but if you were risk adverse and getting podded constantly due to 'mistakes' then you might feel differently about it is what I'm getting at. |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 16:48:00 -
[100] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:Danu Charante wrote: Sure, lets remove all Isk sinks for the entitled, loyal players. Just because they're special.
Ahh so I basically made your argument invalid you're now changing your argument to something else ...ok keep trying.
Wait, you think using The Mittani as an example makes my argument invalid? As far as I can see I don't see him crying about clone costs. Leave that to the special snowflakes of EVE.
|
|
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 17:03:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ankles McGlashan wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:Ankles McGlashan wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:I'm almost on 90mil and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode.
what did your clones cost when you started out? no idea, never really paid any mind to it. That said, I'll also happily suicide jump myself across space for a fight if need be, even if I have a head full of implants. I can always get more isk Aye but if you were risk adverse and getting podded constantly due to 'mistakes' then you might feel differently about it is what I'm getting at.
If I were losing pods constantly to my mistakes, I'd re-evaluate what I was doing.
I get your point though, some people just need to toughen up ;) |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3111
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 17:16:00 -
[102] - Quote
Here is a graph showing the cost to skill point ratio for each level of clone.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
839
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 17:21:00 -
[103] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. Implants is my bet.
wait?
is this where i chime in and say get rid of learning implants because of so and so? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
422
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 17:22:00 -
[104] - Quote
Here's a graph that effects how much I pvp more than the graph you linked |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3951
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 18:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
This thread is pointless anyway because CCP already knows that clone costs are ****** up. I still believe it should be turned into an insurance scheme whereby the clone costs stay the same but if I pay for a clone at a certain level I can lose as many clones as I want over the next 90 days and my SP are protected without having to pay fees every time I get podded. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
287
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 18:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: Such things are pretty much the definition of fair, since everyone who pays more or less the same amount gains the same benefit and the cost doesn't vary according to irrelevant stats.
But is unfair! Why should a long term customer pay the same as a noob?? Sound like a punishment for being a loyal customer!!
And also consider all those poor kids in 0.0; they have to spend a lot of time in structrure grinding and this requires much more ammo! Ammo cost should be scaled according to this, not like they decided to live there and play structure grinding!
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 18:52:00 -
[107] - Quote
Wouldn't make much difference to me. I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs.
They should definitely cost something, to prevent free suicide jumping and to give some satisfaction to podding implantless clones. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
399
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 19:05:00 -
[108] - Quote
If ships and mods were never lost.. if implants didn't exist... if clones were free... would there be more pvp? No; stricty speaking what would be left would not be concidered real pvp. This is a brutal game part of which is intimidation (through fear of loss) to keep others at bay and away from your money making pursuits.. Without that fear the game would become just a repetitious time sink ala wow or (you fill in the mindless console game here). -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Pewty McPew
Pillage Plunder And Rape Industries
200
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 19:06:00 -
[109] - Quote
Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs
Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt.
Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you.
|
Hestia Mar
Calmaretto
73
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 21:06:00 -
[110] - Quote
If ships were free I would... |
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Acac Sunflyier
Burning Star L.L.C.
517
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 21:28:00 -
[111] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Acac Sunflyier wrote:Much more. ALSO I noticed clones double charge us. I paid x amount of isk for a clone after the last time I was podded. Then, after being podded again, I was charged the cost of the clone. What's up with that? Uh?! What do you mean? When you get podded your current clone/body is destoryed and you wake up in the clone you previously stored in the medical station. Then you pay (if you want) to buy a new backup clone stored.
Next time you do, notice how your wallet flashes There just isn't anything intresting on the front page of the GD anymore. Yawn! |
MadMuppet
Three Fish In A Box
838
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 21:52:00 -
[112] - Quote
Clones should never be free, but I think the prices should encourage people jumping back in to the fight. My thoughts:
Start by halving the cost of all clones across the board. Now then: -If you are podded in high-sec, double the cost (call it CONCORD protection tax) -If you are podded, you get a 23 hour cooldown timer. -If you are podded again while under cooldown, the clone cost is 50% of base (or 25 % of what is currently is) and the timer resets to 23 hours again.
Examples:
If today your clone cost 20 million isk, under the new system:
Your clone would now cost 10 million isk First time you get podded, it will cost you 10 million isk and a 23 hours cool down timer starts. Second time you get podded, if the 23 hour timer hasn't run out, your replacement clone will be 5million isk.
However if you are podded in high-sec, double any of the prices (really, you got podded in high-sec?) so... Your clone would now cost 20 million isk First time you get podded, it will cost you 20 million isk and a 23 hours cool down timer starts. Second time you get podded, if the 23 hour timer hasn't run out, your replacement clone will be 10 million isk. I mine in EVE because I'm too drunk to fish in WoW.-á |
Dyjal'Ryn
Validation Error Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:05:00 -
[113] - Quote
I would say that, on the whole, the reason people don't PvP is because they don't want to lose ships, and thus money. Granted there are some people who have no interest in PvP and get all of their fun from EVE via scanning, or what have you, and that's fine.
My T2 dual rep Incursus fit, not including T2 rigs, runs me about 5mil IIRC (It's been a since since I bought components for the fit.), and that's for a T2 fit for a T1 Frigate. One relatively very cheap ship costs more than an Omicron clone, which hold ~42mil SP. That said, the cost of PvP is not the cost of clones, it's the cost of ships, as the cost of replacing a clone is a very small portion of getting back into space. Some people don't want to pay that much. Some people can't pay that much. Thus they don't PvP.
TL;DR The cost of clones does not keep people from participating in PvP, it's the cost of ships, assuming cost is the reason why person X does not PvP. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
TheBlueMonkey wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:baltec1 wrote:TheBlueMonkey wrote:People who like excuses not to PvP would just find new excuses if you made clones free. Implants is my bet. You can choose to pvp with implants or not, this is not a factor preventing "some" from pvp. Jump clone timer and POD cost, are. I'm almost on 90mil sp and pod cost does nothing to stop me making other people explode. Mainly because I go out with the expectation that I'll make more of their stuff die before I die. That and the isk coming in from that covers losses
Yes tell us more about T1 frigates you fly in null sec with your 90M Sp implanted clone is not a problem for you. Or how happy you are to pay 20M for only pod price without implants if you really pvp in null and actually fight weekly for about at least 3 to 4 pods. Let me remind you: you're playing with different people in an MMO that might actually think you're not the best at what you do? I don't see what's really that awesome in your comment, but if you really like to have your ass wiped for fun I'm sure there are some funny folks around ready to help you out.
- Sp does not determinate how much isk you can do with your character or not. Since price is not considered as balance factor lets talk about pvp, and in this single point, timer for it self it's already negative. If you factor the punishment for training your sole character telling you: "no you will not fly small ships anymore because you shouldn't, take it or leave it"- has no sense at all for any one with more than 15 IQ, and dammit even a monkey has that much.
Again I'd say, get rid of clone costs and increase market/contracts trading fees. This will make more isk get out of the game than any actual number of pods loss. . *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7679
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:52:00 -
[115] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
Well I'd say that the numbers on SiSi will give you your answer. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
583
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 22:58:00 -
[116] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt. Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you.
If they don't it's probably because the mechanic of clone prices is bad?
Or do you really want to convince anyone with normal brains and IQ the smarter thing to do is to train alts for pvp when you already have one...?
Simple verification: CCP can open surveys and know a little bit more about this than you and me together.
I bet 1 billion the higher SP players would agree for progressive clone cost accordingly to ship loss (sp required for current fitted ship loss) or removal of clone cost but increase market fees.
Would you take the bet?
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3076
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 23:00:00 -
[117] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt. Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you.
I PVP with 100M SP characters pretty frequently....
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3953
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 23:16:00 -
[118] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt. Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you. I PVP with 100M SP characters pretty frequently.... -Liang In lowsec. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3111
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 23:20:00 -
[119] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt. Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you. I PVP with 100M SP characters pretty frequently.... -Liang Where?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
240
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 23:23:00 -
[120] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: In lowsec.
People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable!
|
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3079
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 23:26:00 -
[121] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:Takseen wrote:I have a low SP alt for all my pvp shenanigans, has negligible clone costs Is this the norm for PVPers? Use a cheap low SP alt. Are they any PVPers who use their 100 mil + SP main to do the killing? Or when you get to that point you have others do the killing for you. I PVP with 100M SP characters pretty frequently.... -Liang Where?
Low sec and WH space.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3953
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 00:22:00 -
[122] - Quote
Takseen wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: In lowsec.
People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable! With no bubbles! Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
584
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 00:36:00 -
[123] - Quote
Takseen wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: In lowsec.
People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable!
Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
916
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 01:09:00 -
[124] - Quote
Free clones? Count me in! I'd be all about losing ships as fast as I could build them (and that's pretty fast). EvE Forum Bingo |
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
287
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 01:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
These are null sec characteristic elements. It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs.
Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization.
And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill):
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3955
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 02:10:00 -
[126] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
These are null sec characteristic elements. It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs. I think you're missing the point that the cost arbitrarily penalizes people for PVPing in a certain area of space with higher SP characters.
You can say "you shouldn't pvp there if you can't deal with the costs" but then you're only proving the point that clone costs are detrimental to pvp for higher SP characters in those two areas of space where podding is much more difficult to avoid.
There's no reason for adding a clone penalty. It just doesn't make sense on a per-character basis. The only justification I can see has to do with needing isk sinks as a whole, and adding an insurance scheme would deal with that. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3081
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 02:18:00 -
[127] - Quote
Sura Sadiva wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
These are null sec characteristic elements. It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs. Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization. And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill): http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats
You don't seem to understand. It's not "real PVP" in Low Suck and Worthless Holes because they aren't part of the Great Null Sea Of Blues. If you aren't flying as part of an ultra elite 1500-3000 man ~leet pee vee pee~ alliance then nothing you could possibly do is "real PVP". If your "small gangs" aren't fleeting up with at least 200 in fleet then you just don't matter.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3955
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 02:20:00 -
[128] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Sura Sadiva wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
These are null sec characteristic elements. It's a free choice to play in there or not. One shouldn't if dislike it or cannot deal with the costs. Higher chance to loose a pod is pretty much the only added risk in null in respect of low sec space. Making it cheaper is a further step toward trivialization. And is balanced balanced with the fact that is far more peacefull. If you check the overall stats you see as low sec region/systems are more dangerous (for ships/pods kill): http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats You don't seem to understand. It's not "real PVP" in Low Suck and Worthless Holes because they aren't part of the Great Null Sea Of Blues. If you aren't flying as part of an ultra elite 1500-3000 man ~leet pee vee pee~ alliance then nothing you could possibly do is "real PVP". If your "small gangs" aren't fleeting up with at least 200 in fleet then you just don't matter. -Liang What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3081
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 02:38:00 -
[129] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse.
I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-)
-Liang
Ed: I'm probably not a good personal barometer of this though. As I stated earlier in the thread, I have a series of (lower SP specialized) alts I use for null sec PVP... but on the flip side I never hesitated to take HG Pirate implants into WH space. I'm also semi space rich. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
287
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 02:50:00 -
[130] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I think you're missing the point that the cost arbitrarily penalizes people for PVPing in a certain area of space with higher SP characters.
I'm not missing anything. What area of space are we talking about? Again, if we read some statistic(http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats)
We see, for instance, as a single low sec system like Amamake has the same ships AND pods kill as a whole 0.0 region like Stain. But we don't ear people operating in Amamake area whining or demanding for a risk/cost redution cause they decided to live in a more dangerous area.
It's like people joining a structure grifding based gameplay and then complaining cause they have to grind structures.
It's like if people living in whormole complained for the lack of local. They don't, it's just a setting for that area of space.
EVE gameplay has risks, costs, death penalities. This is not something "detrimental to pvp" (as you say) is what make it fun and meainingful. Always been so, EVE players always dealt with this and everything is all more easy and cheap today.
And please, tell me who is with 100 milion sp character feeling as such an harsh problem having to spend 30 milions for a medical clone. I'll donate few hundred milions (pennies) to him and an "EVE for dummies" guide.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3955
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 04:32:00 -
[131] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse. I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-) Yeah, you missed the point. See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3083
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:06:00 -
[132] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse. I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-) Yeah, you missed the point. See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often.
I didn't miss the point. I thought it wasn't worth responding to for the reasons already given. Although I'm glad to see you walking back that hate on WH space.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3955
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:29:00 -
[133] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:What I can't figure out is if you didn't actually understand my point or if you're deliberately being obtuse. I'm more or less responding to all the "QQ, Low Suck" posts that immediately followed the statement that I regularly PVP with 100m SP characters in low sec and WH space. Yours was amongst them. ;-) Yeah, you missed the point. See, null has these things called bubbles. Granted WH space has them too but due to being significantly less populated and having no static entrances and exits they're kind of used less often. I didn't miss the point. I thought it wasn't worth responding to for the reasons already given. Although I'm glad to see you walking back that hate on WH space. -Liang I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space. Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3083
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:31:00 -
[134] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space. Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk?
In WH space? Yes.
-Liang
Ed: In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're at significantly more risk than in null sec. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3955
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:33:00 -
[135] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: I didn't realize that stating facts were hating on low and wormhole space. Are you denying that your clones are at less of a risk?
In WH space? Yes. -Liang Ed: In fact, I'd go so far as to say they're at significantly more risk than in null sec. But you do most of your PVP in lowsec. And you actively avoid nullsec... for some reason.
Regardless, we've let this argument get a little sidetracked. Just because you're willing to jump through hoops (clone costs) doesn't make it a good game mechanic. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3083
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:46:00 -
[136] - Quote
You don't pay attention much. I never said it was a good game mechanic - I was even specific about the ways that I bypass and avoid it. What I said is that I PVP with 100m SP characters (since people seemed to believe that 100M SP characters don't ever PVP). I even PVP with 100m SP characters in places where the clone (and much more importantly - the implants) is at significant risk.
But should clone costs be adjusted? Sure, but I think that once you go that far you may as well just remove the clone system as a whole. Is it absolutely mandatory? No, I don't think so. Is it something that inhibits PVP? Obviously, but I don't believe it's a major factor.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3114
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 05:59:00 -
[137] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Just because you're willing to jump through hoops (clone costs) doesn't make it a good game mechanic.
Here's my bet: 100M ISK on the table says that if CCP turns clone manufacturing over to the players in a sensible manner, clones will become more expensive across the board, and especially so in the higher SP categories. This is because the people with 100M SP clones have significantly higher reserves of ISK than people with 10M SP clones. People flying alliance super capitals will have their expenses reimbursed by alliance funds (the same funds that replace those billion-ISK-and-upwards ships that they're flying).
I'll probably weasel my way out of paying that bet by pointing out that the method CCP chooses for implementing player-manufactured clones is foolish or designed by cretins (apologies in advance to CCP Greyscale or whoever designs the feature).
But the core of my bet is this: the people who PvP in high SP characters could care less about the replacement cost.
And my corollary is this: don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Use your expensive high-SP alt for earning an income (why are all your SP invested in that one character? Did you think that more SP made your character better?). Start a new character and limit it to frigates and destroyers while you sort out your income stream.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
YuuKnow
boom-town
651
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 06:04:00 -
[138] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
Players with over 100 mil SP are sometimes averted to PVP because of the cost of replacement clones at that level. Even lower level players can be drained having to replace countless clones. Without the worry of losing 10x or more the cost of the T1 firgate you are flying I think more players would be more willing to give it a try. At least on a more casual level you could JC into a implantless clone, go on a lo/null sec adventure for the afternoon and not have to worry about losing 75+ mil ISK and potential SP loss. It may just be the determining factor for alot of unsure players who wanted to get their feet wet but were afraid to.
Even most serious PVPers have alts to help augment their income to pay for their fun and also allow them access to hisec. Would it not also be beneficial to them to have one less thing to worry about? Let them concentrate on what they do best, killing.
Just wondering other opinions on this.
No. Its the state of PvP that keeps Non-PvPers from PvPing. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3115
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 06:53:00 -
[139] - Quote
Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this:
Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of...
Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3956
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Here's my bet: 100M ISK on the table says that if CCP turns clone manufacturing over to the players in a sensible manner, clones will become more expensive across the board. This is because the people with 100M SP clones have significantly higher reserves of ISK than people with 10M SP clones. That's not necessarily the case.
Mara Rinn wrote:People flying alliance super capitals will have their expenses reimbursed by alliance funds (the same funds that replace those billion-ISK-and-upwards ships that they're flying). Right... the point here is that people with more expensive clones tend to start flying tankier ships, since those ships get lost less often, and when the ship doesn't get lost the pod doesn't get lost either. The clone cost system in this manner discourages players from PVPing in ships that blow up rather frequently, such as interdictors. Sure a 10M clone cost without implants seems kind of small compared to a 70M isk ship, but these things add up. As a result you see these people only flying ships like command ships, battleships, tech 3s, or capitals. They're effectively discouraged from flying smaller ships unless they either suck up the clone cost or get an alt (which itself costs money).
Mara Rinn wrote:People flying 100M SP carebear clones have huge incomes compared the frequency with which they have to replace clones. Right, which is why we're not talking about those people.
Mara Rinn wrote:I'll probably weasel my way out of paying that bet by pointing out that the method CCP chooses for implementing player-manufactured clones is foolish or designed by cretins (apologies in advance to CCP Greyscale or whoever designs the feature). Maybe. Maybe not. An insurance system as has been described before in this thread and others (where I pay the same clone cost, but my clone is covered for the entire 90 days or whatever after my payment no matter how many times I get podded) would be fair in that it wouldn't penalize players who PVP in specific areas of the game disproportionally, but it would also provide a still significant isk sink (and indeed it might even be a bigger isk sink than it currently is).
Mara Rinn wrote:But the core of my bet is this: the people who PvP in high SP characters could care less about the replacement cost. No, you'd be wrong about that. Many high SP players that do PVP in null ***** about their clone costs all the time, and it's generally agreed that the system needs to be fixed. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3957
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 07:09:00 -
[141] - Quote
And in any case, while I agree with Marlona Sky that clone costs are a problem, I don't think removing them entirely would be the right course of action because the game does need ISK sinks, and while he addresses that problem by removing insurance to compensate I believe that would also be a mistake because insurance is one of the rare game mechanics that seems to help new players and smaller groups more than large ones. If insurance were removed large groups would still be able to reimburse their losses as they do now but smaller groups or newer players would have a much more difficult time replacing their own losses. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
675
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 09:06:00 -
[142] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:And in any case, while I agree with Marlona Sky that clone costs are a problem, I don't think removing them entirely would be the right course of action because the game does need ISK sinks, and while he addresses that problem by removing insurance to compensate I believe that would also be a mistake because insurance is one of the rare game mechanics that seems to help new players and smaller groups more than large ones. If insurance were removed large groups would still be able to reimburse their losses as they do now but smaller groups or newer players would have a much more difficult time replacing their own losses.
I believe the default insurance should be removed, that you always had to buy the insurance first or get nothing, and that the duration of this insurance should be between 2-4 weeks, that would be better...
As for clone cost, I don't think it should be removed completely... it should just be reduced a lot... I currently say 45 mil per clone, and I'm slowly getting tired of paying so much, so I can't enjoy flying cheaper ships... Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 09:38:00 -
[143] - Quote
Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:07:00 -
[144] - Quote
Jaden Li wrote:Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same.
You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
|
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
675
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Jaden Li wrote:Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same. You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
There comes a point when more sp only means being able to do more different things equally well... doesn't mean that you become better than everyone else in all the ships Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Seetesh
Hand of the Sword
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:44:00 -
[146] - Quote
Several of my toons have over 120mil sp and it can be a little annoying as i will have them all fitted with implants and HGs. But playing since 2003 i have amassed wealth ships and cans of implants and clones over 40mil isk each arent a problem anymore. |
Jaden Li
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:45:00 -
[147] - Quote
Yep - and the person posting above you is one of the many who fails to understand this point. Just like the belief that more SP justifies an exponentially more expensive clone because we can ofcourse kill our rats 20 times faster than someone with 50mil sp. Wait what!? |
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
84
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:24:00 -
[148] - Quote
Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun. GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½ ...end transmission... |
Thrash Cutter
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:50:00 -
[149] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:If clones were free would more PvP?
No. My 12mil SP clone cost doesn't stop me from PvPing as much as I would like to. Having to either do dailies or pay cash to PvP on a semi-regularly level does. But then again, what's an MMO without dailies? |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14098
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:00:00 -
[150] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Jaden Li wrote:Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same. You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players? I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
|
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
676
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:36:00 -
[151] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun.
Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall" Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Jaden Li wrote:Remove T1 insurance entirely and remove clone costs alltogether. This would actually cost me more to pvp in the long run, have a net reduction in the amount of ISK injected into the economy and not make me feel like I was being penalized for being in the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers.
It's not necessarily about the ISK, it's about everyone being treated the same. You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players? I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game.
You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
246
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:40:00 -
[153] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Takseen wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: In lowsec.
People pvping in a pvp friendly area? Inconceivable! Tell me more about low sec bubbles, dictor bbles at gates, bombs etc. I'm curious now.
They appear to be an impediment to pvp activity? Judging by the kill stats on my Starmap atleast. |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
83
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:40:00 -
[154] - Quote
Thrash Cutter wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:If clones were free would more PvP?
No. My 12mil SP clone cost doesn't stop me from PvPing as much as I would like to. Having to either do dailies or pay cash to PvP on a semi-regularly level does. But then again, what's an MMO without dailies?
Mission running in Eve is ALL about 'dailies'...
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:46:00 -
[155] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:Lfod Shi wrote:Clones have nothing to do with my aversion to PvP. I've been held down and beaten up in real life. I have no wish to do the same for fun. Did you ever play counter strike? or any other games than EvE? :3 did you apply that to those games also? "No mister terrorist, I was beaten up in real life, so I wont shoot at you, I am just gonna stand here in a corner and paint tags on the wall"
I think the guy you quoted feels that all Eve pvp is inherently nonconsensual, or something. Like pirates ambushing miners or mission runners. Certainly I'd feel worse doing that then pewpewing wartargets or pirates who have clearly shot other people in the past. Likewise I get more stressed when attacked by a random person compared to a wartarget.
Tis all very interesting psychologically.
|
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
247
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:47:00 -
[156] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote: You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up.
After a certain point, extra SP just adds versatility, not income generation. And yet the clone costs instead of flattening out to match this, balloon enormously. See the chart posted earlier.
|
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14098
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:51:00 -
[157] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:Mag's wrote:Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
You are saying that the top 5-10% skillpoint base of active pvp'ers should be treated the same as everyone else? But you aren't the same as everyone else... your in an elite. That comes with certain penalties and benefits. Of course you, like the elites who run the real worlds megacorporations, want the benefits without the penalties. They often manage to avoid penalties such as tax to the detriment of everyone else. If you could skip the penalties of your elite status would that be to the detriment of other players?
I don't think you understand, how SP works in this game. You've been subscribing for a long time, you've been maintaining your skill queue for a long time. During that time you are supposed to have developed ways to produce income. That advantage is supposed to counter the increased costs of your clones. Suck it up. Like I said, you don't understand how SP works in this game.
Also I live in low sec and still think this is a bad mechanic. Seems the only one sucking here is you.
Vote Malcanis for CSM 8 |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
321
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:53:00 -
[158] - Quote
Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
No.
The cost of the clone is genreally cheap compared to the cost of the implants.
The ISK cost of losing ships and clones is relatively insignificant compared to the profit potential of most in game activities. An hour of carebearing can replace a dozen small ships or a couple large ships.
The people that do not PVP either 1) have no interest in PVP or 2) Really want to avoid being on someone's kill board stats.
Free clones would not change either of these factors. |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:39:00 -
[159] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP
The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
3120
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:13:00 -
[160] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3961
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:35:00 -
[161] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Pewty McPew wrote:Lets forget for a moment the Darwin issue of forgetting to upgrade/renew you medical clone and losing SP.
If free medical clones were provided to all players would this encourage more people to participate in PVP?
No. The cost of the clone is genreally cheap compared to the cost of the implants. The ISK cost of losing ships and clones is relatively insignificant compared to the profit potential of most in game activities. An hour of carebearing can replace a dozen small ships or a couple large ships. The people that do not PVP either 1) have no interest in PVP or 2) Really want to avoid being on someone's kill board stats. Free clones would not change either of these factors. And yet people who DO PVP are telling you that clone costs are a problem. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:03:00 -
[162] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205451&find=unread
Just need a free ship and free equipment thread; then we can talk more of that fallacy you speak of. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4542
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:31:00 -
[163] - Quote
Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Danu Charante wrote:Marlona Sky wrote:Another way to look at this entire clone upgrade cost mechanic is like this: Let us pretend there was no clone upgrade costs to begin with. Now, lets say CCP puts out a dev blog that says something along the lines of... Quote:Hi players. We need to add more ISK sinks and to do this, we are going to add a mechanic that penalizes players who actually take risks and PvP in this game. For those unfortunate few who forget to push a button after they are podded to activate the ISK sink, we are going to penalize them severely. We are going to take away a ton of skill points. Also for those players who have been around longer, we are going to charge you more. You know because using the metric 'with age always comes wealth' is accurate.
So remember capsuleers... The more you play, the more you pay.
GÖÑ CCP The question is, would you have been playing EVE for so long if it had been a generic, no penalty PVP game, in the first place. Will players still play this game in the future if it turns into a fluffy lala land. And there you go with the slippery slope fallacy. Did I say free ships? Free equipment? Free implants? No, I did not. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=205451&find=unreadJust need a free ship and free equipment thread; then we can talk more of that fallacy you speak of. The fallacy Marlona is referring is your inability to adress her actual post and instead addressing something completely irrelevant. You'll notice, that you continue to do it by linking a thread that isn't about asking for free stuff, but about asking for a shorter delay between jumpclone switches. It's about flexibility in gameplay and unwillingness of people to compromise on their optimal training speed. The cost of implants is still there and so is the risk of losing them.
Not that I mind your inability to properly discuss the issue. It just makes your side of the argument seem more feeble with each post and ensures the future changes to the mechanic are increasingly more likely to favor our view on the issue.
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Kristopher Rocancourt
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
36
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 18:32:00 -
[164] - Quote
clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3966
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:30:00 -
[165] - Quote
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Danu Charante
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:45:00 -
[166] - Quote
Destination SkillQueue wrote: The fallacy Marlona is referring is your inability to adress her actual post and instead addressing something completely irrelevant. You'll notice, that you continue to do it by linking a thread that isn't about asking for free stuff, but about asking for a shorter delay between jumpclone switches. It's about flexibility in gameplay and unwillingness of people to compromise on their optimal training speed. The cost of implants is still there and so is the risk of losing them.
Not that I mind your inability to properly discuss the issue. It just makes your side of the argument seem more feeble with each post and ensures the future changes to the mechanic are increasingly more likely to favor our view on the issue.
Her post was addressed, I'm sorry you can't see past your narrow minded view of things. Keep posting the drivel though. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
755
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 19:53:00 -
[167] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing.
My assertion: One hold full of ore will easily pay for the average clone cost, with ISK left to burn. Toons with clones costing more than that are experienced enough to have plentiful other sources of income far exceeding the cost* of a new clone. Therefore: Clone costs are NOT in any way a barrier to PvP, nor do Carebears (as a whole) think that they are.
*Unless you're really bad at EVE. Or had your wallet set negative due to being caught at RMT. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3969
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:11:00 -
[168] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
756
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:31:00 -
[169] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Bit of a strawman there, which I propose to toss on the fire. Understandable that you built it - I did supply the raw material.
I never stated you MUST have implants (or must not). I *did* assert that the cost of clones are not a real barrier to PvP. To be fair, however, I do now see your point about the cost of implants being irreleveant, and will concede that you *do* have a valid point there. Irrelevant to the central theme though it may be.
That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP - But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Takseen
University of Caille Gallente Federation
256
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:35:00 -
[170] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:
That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP - But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted.
If anything the 80m SP guy is likely to have more wealth if he has a 40m SP alt. Or 2 20m SP alts, and so on. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3971
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Posted - 2013.02.19 20:44:00 -
[171] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? Bit of a strawman there, which I propose to toss on the fire. Understandable that you built it - I did supply the raw material. It's not a strawman, I'm suggesting that clone costs are analogous to being forced to have implants that do nothing.
silens vesica wrote:[I never stated you MUST have implants (or must not). I *did* assert that the cost of clones are not a real barrier to PvP. To be fair, however, I do now see your point about the cost of implants being irreleveant, and will concede that you *do* have a valid point there. Irrelevant to the central theme though it may be. Your point was that clone costs aren't a barrier to PVP because they're insignificant compared to the cost of implants. I'm explaining that this is still not a good argument because implants are something I CHOOSE to run with. I can undock with cheap implants if I don't want to risk that much, or I can undock with more expensive implants and get the benefit of those while also increasing my risk. With clone costs, I don't really have a choice. I can either undock in my clone (let's say it costs 30M isk, so that's a character between 92.5M and 120M SP) and hope I don't get podded so I don't have to pay the expense, or I can choose to only use more expensive ships that are significantly tankier so my clone isn't as at much of a risk, or I can undock without updating my clone which is for obvious reasons stupid, or I can train alts (which frankly is something I shouldn't be forced to do). Or I can just not undock at all.
silens vesica wrote:That said: From where I sit, the difference in raw combat capability between, say, an 80m SP and an 120m SP is fairly negligible in most PvP And yet, the difference there is a whole 25 million more ISK the 120m SP character has to pay each time they get podded.
silens vesica wrote:But what *isn't* negligible is the *time* spent between those two values. Time in which, presumbably, resources are accumulated, funding sources are exploited and developed, and so on. Economically speaking, I assert that there *is* a substantial difference between those levels or level differences of similar magnitude, such that the relative cost to the toon is approximately equal, whether or not you're implanted. So if I spent the time (paid for the experience of my character, essentially, since time is valuable especially in this game) to train my character, why should I have to pay yet again just so I can hold onto what I gained from the time that I spent on training my character? Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
XxRTEKxX
Fenrir's Dogs of War Union 0f Revolution
67
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 20:47:00 -
[172] - Quote
I would like it to be that there be two types of clones available. Clones that can have implants, if lost then player must reupgrade again as you currently must do. As well as clones that cannot use implants, however if lost, there is no need to upgrade to insure SP.
So if i want to PvP without the risk of losing a pod and having to spend isk to upgrade clone to keep sp, then i hop into a Clone that cannot use implants. Upside:PvP without having to upgrade everytime POD is lost. Downside:Lose the benefit of having implants.
Implant Clones - Upraded to protect sp Disposable Clone- No Implants allowed, but dont need to be upgraded to protect SP.
Or once an implant is plugged into a clone, if pod is lost while implanted, clone must be upgraded. If pod with no implants is lost, then there is no need to upgrade when you wake up in station. |
Hevymetal
Players United Terrorizing Random Rocks
58
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Posted - 2013.02.19 20:49:00 -
[173] - Quote
Having a medclone cost fast approaching 40 mil a pop. I would say YES, I would be more apt to PVP if clones were free. I don't mind jumping into a nonimplanted clone to go give a whirl at PVP.
Explain then why I should have to pay 40 mil more ISK then a noob when we are both flying the same 10 mil ISK frig?
I will admit I'm a PVP noob, but why should I be penalized just because I have more SP then my opponent? If I didn't have the additional "Bitter Vet" tax penality and just lost the cost of the ship I was flying I would be alot more willing to accept the fact I will die, I will lose ships and still PVP. At a minimum of 50 mil (clone+ship) per podding, no thanks I'll carebear in hisec.
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silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
756
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 21:29:00 -
[174] - Quote
Hate this - Mult-quoting limits.
James Amril-Kesh wrote: It's not a strawman, I'm suggesting that clone costs are analogous to being forced to have implants that do nothing.
OK, not a strawman, but I still don't think so. It's an ISK sink - a not-unreasonable one.
Quote:Your point was that clone costs aren't a barrier to PVP because they're insignificant compared to the cost of implants. No. It was not. I did, however make the mistake of incuding two seperate arguments in one post (one of which was, frankly and admittedly, off-target), so you are forgiven for the mis-read. OTOH, I ALSO corrected myself, and clarified, so you still lose points.
Quote:With clone costs, I don't really have a choice. I can either undock in my clone (let's say it costs 30M isk, so that's a character between 92.5M and 120M SP) and hope I don't get podded so I don't have to pay the expense, or I can choose to only use more expensive ships that are significantly tankier so my clone isn't as at much of a risk, or I can undock without updating my clone which is for obvious reasons stupid, or I can train alts (which frankly is something I shouldn't be forced to do). And my point being - which I *did* clarify - is that the relative costs to the economic status of disparate-level toons is approximately level. So it's a moot point.
Quote:And yet, the difference there is a whole 25 million more ISK the 120m SP character has to pay each time they get podded. So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point.
Quote:So if I spent the time (paid for the experience of my character, essentially, since time is valuable especially in this game) to train my character, why should I have to pay yet again just so I can hold onto what I gained from the time that I spent on training my character? 'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3974
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 21:37:00 -
[175] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point. That has been particularly discredited several times in this thread. After a certain point there's not really any increase in potential income. Of course this also depends on what your SP is focused on, but as your SP increases your income potential levels off... yet your clone costs increase exponentially. There's a pretty significant disparity here.
silens vesica wrote:'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks. The fix I proposed would potentially increase the isk sink while making it more fair. It would also still cater to your idea that more SP = more potential income, but it wouldn't become ridiculous. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
758
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 22:52:00 -
[176] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:So? The older toon ought reasonably to have access to commensurately greater economic resources, so it should be a moot point. That has been particularly discredited several times in this thread. After a certain point there's not really any increase in potential income. Of course this also depends on what your SP is focused on, but as your SP increases your income potential levels off... yet your clone costs increase exponentially. There's a pretty significant disparity here. silens vesica wrote:'Cause EVE is harsh and full of ISK sinks. But nothing you've said here makes me believe that the actual costs involved are significant barriers. Sounds to me more like whinging about ISK-sinks. The fix I proposed would potentially increase the isk sink while making it more fair. It would also still cater to your idea that more SP = more potential income, but it wouldn't become ridiculous. Fairly enough stated. I disagree with your position, but reasonable people might so do.
Here's the real bottom line from my perspective: Folks are trying to bribe people to PvP by altering the costs, which are, I assert, not a real barrier. Bribes don't work. None of the hair-brained schemes I've seen bruited about here in GD will work to get more people into PvP because they miss the central cold, hard, obeservable fact: Those who want to PvP are already so doing. They find a way. They deal with the costs. They accept the risks, and they go out and pew-pew.
Altering the costs will not increase PvP by anything more than a smidgin, because those who actually want to PvP are already out there finding ways to meet the relatively minor costs. In my opinion, those people who claim clone costs as a reason for avoiding PvP are NOT truthfully interested in PvP in the first place - or they're making excuses - or are simply whinging about minor ISK sinks - or are horribly bad at EVE - or have simply missed the point.
There is one exception to this - Those corporations and alliances (Red v. Blue, EVE Uni, I'm looking at you!) who actively *teach* PvP as a mission *do* raise the numbers of Pew-Pew pilots. But even then, they only manage to recruit those as are interested.
Want more people doing the pew-pew? Get more people to log in. Clone costs are NOT the reason people don't subscribe, nor are they the reason subscribers don't log in.
As for the discrediting, I've seen a number of anecdotes. I've also seen a number of assertions - none backed up any better than mine. I don't see data. Until such time as reasonably complete data becomes available, I propose we retire to our respective corners. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3975
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 23:05:00 -
[177] - Quote
I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you that clone costs prevent people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Kristopher Rocancourt
Quality Assurance The Marmite Collective
42
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 12:14:00 -
[178] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward?
if you do not have implants, you need to reassess your ability to play this game correctly.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3990
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:07:00 -
[179] - Quote
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:clone fees are nothing when people like myself are blapping 1.8Billion isk of implants in Pods.
K. Not terribly relevant though. Actually, entirely relevent. When people are willing to risk such huge investments, the cost of a clone is essentially nil. Decimal places, to be sure. Contrary-wise, if your implants are so expensive as to preclude risking them, lowering the cost of clones will mean nothing. Okay. So what about people who don't have implants in their clones? Are we all forced to have implants in our clones and forced to pay for new ones every time we lose them? Are we forced to have implants in our clones that have absolutely no effect? Do we increase risk without increasing the reward? if you do not have implants, you need to reassess your ability to play this game correctly. That has **** all to do with the argument here. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
763
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:09:00 -
[180] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you on clone costs not preventing people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Fair point.
Care to start a thread on it? Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3990
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:20:00 -
[181] - Quote
silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you on clone costs not preventing people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Fair point. Care to start a thread on it? Meh. Marlona already did a while back and I posted several times in it. Well, either he did or someone posted the thread about the article he wrote. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
366
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:22:00 -
[182] - Quote
Clone costs are fairly irrelevant to me. I just don't enjoy PvP.
Why play EvE then? Because, the game has plenty of other things to offer besides blowing up ships. Many of those things involve PvP indirectly, or in the case of the market, directly, but striving to blow up other people's ships, or being blown up myself, are just not my favorite activities in EvE.
Having said that, I would not change EvE to remove any aspects of PvP...because those aspects provide the elements of danger that make the things I do like to do more dangerous (exciting). |
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
703
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:23:00 -
[183] - Quote
Shrug. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
763
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:24:00 -
[184] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:silens vesica wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I guess the fundamental problem here is that I don't particularly disagree with you on clone costs not preventing people from PVPing, however I do think clone costs are problematic for other reasons. Fair point. Care to start a thread on it? Meh. Marlona already did a while back and I posted several times in it. Well, either he did or someone posted the thread about the article he wrote. Missed that one. 'Since I'm comfortable with the clone cost progression as it is now, I don't suppose I'll start a thread, either. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Malcanis for CSM8 |
SMT008
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
519
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 15:35:00 -
[185] - Quote
I've got a couple friends that have over 130M SPs, and believe me they do PVP a lot.
However, they can't/don't want to fly T1 frigates.
T1 frigates are very fun to fly and all, but when the bare minimum clone cost is 25x more expensive than the ship you're flying, it becomes stupid. Simple as that.
A pretty cool solution would be to have upgradable clones that don't revolve around skill points counts.
Think about it, you would have to upgrade your clone to plug more implants, or more specific implants.
That would be a better system than the current one. If you are a veteran, hardcore PVPer who flies Machariels with full snake sets, fine, but you'll have to get yourself a pretty expensive clone for all those implants.
However, if you want/are asked to brawl with a frigate-fleet led by a fellow corpmate, you can still do that in a cheap ship, without having your raw body costing more than the fleet you are flying with.
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Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
366
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 17:26:00 -
[186] - Quote
If high SP pilots are being disincented from having fun in cheap ships, this current system fails. Are these pilots being penalized so that they'll buy alt accounts to play with for small ship PvP?
Is it possible to implement a clone discount system, where CCP keeps the current prices, but allows you to work for a discounted price (a price modifier based on rep, or total PvP kills, or something relevent for long time players)? In this case, you could choose to not bother with the discount (say for industrial players who seldom PvP), or you could choose, through whatever mechanism is most appropriate, to build up a permanent discount on your clones. |
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