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The Cerberus and it's bonuses

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ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.18 11:18:00 - [91] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 18/08/2005 11:22:42 Most of my HAC PVP experience is indeed on SiSi in a test environment. I never said otherwise. I can't exactly USE my Cerb and Eagle effectively on TQ in PVP, firstly because they SUCK, secondly because they're currently 80 jumps from Impass, where we've been chasing MC around for the past couple weeks. But, in all honesty, the week or so of HAC whoring I did on the test server back when CCP had them up on market was more than enough to tell me what I needed to know. And I only had a very few "arranged" battles. Most took place at the FFA. Call it what you will, but while I agree it's not the same as the real thing, it sure as hell beats throwing away countless Caldari HACs on live server in a sad attempt to find something that works... (BTW, tell Farjung to head back out to Impass now that we've got some bubbles for him. He just thinks hes SO COOL insta-jumping all over Impass. Dunno how many times I had that bastard within a fraction of a second's lock... ) -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.08.18 11:22:00 - [92] eyeshadow, i can imagine u have some good sorts of experience with pvp. well ive been using the cerb for quiete some time, in all possible situations. means 1v1 and groups, ganks and fleets and whatever. and i can honestly say, theres no reason to fly a cerberus. i suggest all to fit 3-4 nanos in a raven lows and its even faster and agiler then the cerb, cause cerbs are like the slowest hacs - after eagles.. - the cerb dont dishes out dmg, well its laughable, and in no way comparable to other hacs. - the cerb canot tank and use light missiles or such, the small cap, the 2 em hardeners make it kind of useless. you can fit an ok tank on a cerb, with no meds left and 4 pdu2 (wheres the point in a cerb then?) - the cerb is a sniper ppl say, well, with its dmg output it cant kill cruisers and bses but only frigs - and these also only in a few volleys when they dont move. the problem with these frigs then is that they usually go faster then 3.600ms, means missiles dont harm them. That leaves u to b unable to Snipe Bses, Cruisers, and frigs o.O in like 97% of all realistic situations. but i suggest all the ppl to name things they think a cerb is good for, and others explain you why other ships, like the raven, or the bb (EW) is better for that. litle hint: Ravens are fun ships to fly, u loose 35m and can fit setups that beats the cerbs all the time. Do not use assault launchers on a Cerb, light missiles dont kill ceptors, since they are too fast and to rubbish dmg on assault frigs. use harpies instead, they do more dmg and are cheaper, and tank pretty good cause their small sig radious compared to cerbs.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.08.18 11:27:00 - [93] Here's a thought: As others have said, change the missile damage bonus to ALL missile types, not just kinetic. Keep rate of fire and missile velocity. Instead of changing the range bonus to a second velocity bonus, change it to a 10% reduction in launcher reload time per level. This would more effectively allow the Cerberus to exploit its ability to switch up damage types - and its DPS would still be somewhat substandard, but the ability to more quickly switch to a damage type that suits the target's vulnerabilities ought to put it on the same level as the other races' HACs. -Wrayeth
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.18 11:33:00 - [94] I like Wrayeth. I like VERY MUCH. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.08.18 11:38:00 - [95] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 18/08/2005 11:22:42 Most of my HAC PVP experience is indeed on SiSi in a test environment. I never said otherwise. I can't exactly USE my Cerb and Eagle effectively on TQ in PVP, firstly because they SUCK, secondly because they're currently 80 jumps from Impass, where we've been chasing MC around for the past couple weeks. But, in all honesty, the week or so of HAC whoring I did on the test server back when CCP had them up on market was more than enough to tell me what I needed to know. And I only had a very few "arranged" battles. Most took place at the FFA. Call it what you will, but while I agree it's not the same as the real thing, it sure as hell beats throwing away countless Caldari HACs on live server in a sad attempt to find something that works... (BTW, tell Farjung to head back out to Impass now that we've got some bubbles for him. He just thinks hes SO COOL insta-jumping all over Impass. Dunno how many times I had that bastard within a fraction of a second's lock... ) The only reason i said u need experience in the real world is cos on paper, the Deimos is uber, the vagabond is pretty crap, the sacriledge is pretty good etc etc. Of course, thats not how it actually pans out. Paper stats mean nothing not to go off topic but most of your PVPers are up in Esa these days, from what i can see. I look forward to the weekend when we can have some more fun as your guys only seem to come after 23:00 Eve time (i do have to work ) I know the cerb sucks damage wise, ive never said it doesnt, i just dont think changing the missile dmg bonus to all missiles is the way to do it. Forums: Sharks * MC
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.18 12:09:00 - [96] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 18/08/2005 12:11:05 Well Eyeshadow I agree, while the Deimos does have massive DPS, it does have limitations that keep it in line with most other HACs. I'm not saying its the be-all-end-all of HACs, simply pointing out that it has twice the firepower of a Cerb, which is pretty significant. Especially considering that an Ishtar is even better. Power, versatility, tankability, all in one package... As for the PVP up in Esa, yeah, was planning on joining the group headed up 2300 time Tues but thats when the server started crashing repeatedly... CCP always has perfect timing for everything Edit- as for the Cerb's bonuses, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.08.18 18:14:00 - [97] Btw the maybe so called close range weapon of the cerberus is firing frig sized ammo. And where are the 3 diffrent heavy launchers ? ever tried to fit a full tank and tech II weapons on a cerberus ? (don't have them yet but what i see from my stats atm u need 3 PD II and 1 CPU II) You don't even need to think of damage mods! deimos does have 3 diffrent (all in all 6) weapons to chose from with damage according to the class of the ship heavy electron, ion and neutron blasters.... if u call assault missile launchers the close range weapon for th cerberus why is this weapon using frig sized ammo ?
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.08.18 18:52:00 - [98] Edited by: HippoKing on 18/08/2005 18:53:00 imo, the cerb needs its bonuses deborked (i like wrayeth's idea), get another launcher slot, and a larger capacitor (i reckon 1000 with the same recharge time base). this is what i reckon is needed to make the cerby a useful ship. i would also like to say that i have never flown a cerby or any other HAC (i am not putting a mil in cruiser 5 when i have >7mil SP when it only lets me fly **** ships), but this is what IMO would bring the on paper stats of the Cerb level with some of the other HACs.
Farjung	Posted - 2005.08.18 23:00:00 - [99] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK (BTW, tell Farjung to head back out to Impass now that we've got some bubbles for him. He just thinks hes SO COOL insta-jumping all over Impass. Dunno how many times I had that bastard within a fraction of a second's lock... ) Teehee ;D. Someone really needs to keep me away from the Taranis
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.08.18 23:45:00 - [100] BTW, I posted a thread over on the game development forums with my aforementioned suggestions. It's called "Possible Cerberus Changes". That might be a better place to weigh in if you want to get your voice heard. Methinks the devs browse that forum just a tad bit more than this one. -Wrayeth
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.18 23:59:00 - [101] Sadly i seriously doubt ccp will fix the caldari hac, only thing you can do is use your extra midslots to your advantage and load up on electronic warfare and forget ever tanking these ships, they just can't hold up against other HAC sadly. If you do a lot of missile and heavy assault ship skill training and you can get some nice faction ballistics you can possibly get your rof down to almost 5 seconds flat.. the missile damage is still poor though and since you are limited to 1 type of missile for a damage bonus, you'll always do crap for damage against anyone who tanks kinetic (and for some reason all HAC are pretty damn well tanked vs kinetc except the Minmtar ones). I think it's pretty lame that Deimos and Ishtar can use EM/Explosive drones perfectly fine in conjunction with some very nice (and in the Deimos' case, awesome) damage output from their turrets on top of that yet CCP will not give the Caldari the ability to exploit weaknesses in other ships resistances knowing full well launchers do NOT do as much damage as other weapons nor do Caldari ships even have enough low slots to go into "gank" mode like other ships. With some gist stuff you might be able to put up a good tank but you will never have enough cap on a Cerberus to run it more than a few cycles and gistii stuff costs an awful lot. The 0% EM damage on your shield is a huge gaping hole in your defense which is easily exploited so you'll need to use a slot to cover that up by default on top of any tank setup and quite frankly you might as well invest in a faction/officer one because even 1 50% will not cut the mustard vs any good gank setup. If CCP actually did make the Cerberus and Eagle more on par with the Zealot, Deimos, Ishtar and the other nice HAC, I would be seriously (but pleasantly) suprised. I really look forward to when CCP redoes all the T1 ships and gives them better roles/bonuses (CCP is going to do this soon, right?) Perhaps that will help out Caldari a bit since many of their bonuses....... suck. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.19 05:12:00 - [102] One thing I find annoying is the lack of resists on shields. That 0% EM resist absolutely kills Caldari HAC tanking. A Zealots combined armor resistance is 237.5 and it has more room for tanking (7 slots) vs a Cerberus 210 combined resistance (5 slots). If you ask me, giving the Eagle and Cerberus 10 to 25% EM resistance on their shields would not be a bad idea, they would still have less total resist than their armor tanking counterparts but at least 1 EM Hardener would HELP balance out its resist, even with a 55% T2 Hardener you still have a very very low resist and you are very suspectable to EM damage. A Zealot with a single thermal hardener is very much more balanced out than a Cerberus with a single EM ward. This might help balance out the fact armor resists are generally way better than shield resists, a little. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.19 05:46:00 - [103] Jim, you're my hero Seriously though, excellent points, I have to agree completely. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
DarK	Posted - 2005.08.19 06:54:00 - [104] Yeah no ****, that 0% is total garbage. You'd think shield specialists would be able to make shields with some EM resistance seeing as a trashcan ship race can... Good thing Jim is around again, got ourselves a good little Caldari/missile whinge group going:)
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.19 09:54:00 - [105] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 19/08/2005 09:55:08 Oh, I'd like to correct a mathematical error on my part. Previously I've mentioned 350 damage as an attainable value for a Scourge missile fired from a Cerberus fitted entirely for ganking. This is because I accidentally applied the Heavy Missiles specialization 2% bonus to missile damage instead of launcher rate of fire. In actuality, maximum attainable damage for a Scourge missile fired from a gank Cerberus is 312. Sad isn't it. I cited 1750 as a possible 1-salvo damage from a Cerberus, and proved that even that damage won't blow up a frigate with a signature radius of 40 m in one volley. 1560 damage before resists is the correct value. Please lower your assesment of the Cerberus 1 more notch. While I'm doing the math, this means a Cerberus pilot with MAX skills (Heavy Missiles 5, Missile Operation 5, Warhead Upgrades 5, Rapid Launch 5, Heavy Missile Specialization 5, Heavy Assault Ships 5) and a gank setup consisting of 4 BCS in low with Heavy Missile Launcher IIs fitted can achieve 262.2 DPS. Note... thats a LOT of hefty 5s... I don't think I need to mention how long that would take to train. A more reasonable number for the more "average" Cerb pilot (Heavy Missiles 5, Missile Operation 5, Warhead Upgrades 4, Rapid Launch 4, Heavy Missile Specialization 4, Heavy Assault Ships 4) is 306 damage per Scourge and a DPS of 227.8 -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Eyeshadow	Posted - 2005.08.19 10:01:00 - [106] Your point about EM shield resist being base 0 is mute cos the deimos has base 10% explosive resists, which isnt exactly uber either. Its one of them things unfortunately As for the bonus, how about changing the flight time to a 5% bonus per level to explosion radius? Would make heavies more uber against smaller ships, not sure how that would stack up against cruisers. Im not up to speed on the missiles atm Forums: Sharks * MC
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.19 18:15:00 - [107] Originally by: Eyeshadow Your point about EM shield resist being base 0 is mute cos the deimos has base 10% explosive resists, which isnt exactly uber either. Its one of them things unfortunately As for the bonus, how about changing the flight time to a 5% bonus per level to explosion radius? Would make heavies more uber against smaller ships, not sure how that would stack up against cruisers. Im not up to speed on the missiles atm 10% is greater than 0%, and Deimos has more low slots for tanking.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.08.19 18:35:00 - [108] The main problem of the Caldari HACs is, that no one looks at them and sees how hard they s... I have put quit some time in my cerberus to get used to it. I tested diffrent fittings used diffrent tactics and so on. I guess i'm informed quite good about the things deimos can do and this is because i HAVE to know. Cerberus isn't flown much in PVP so no one knows this ship deimos is so everyone HAS to know this ship. That ppl which have never flown a cerb or seen one in PVP or had to get information, fittings and tactics about it are complaining that it's quite strong ist just a .....
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.19 18:52:00 - [109] Edited by: j0sephine on 19/08/2005 18:52:11 "As for the bonus, how about changing the flight time to a 5% bonus per level to explosion radius? Would make heavies more uber against smaller ships, not sure how that would stack up against cruisers. Im not up to speed on the missiles atm" With base missile skills heavy missiles can hit for full damage anything bigger than ~115 m. There's only couple tech.1 cruisers which have signature radius 5-10 m smaller than that ... meaning the effect of such bonus when shooting other cruisers would be practically nil. It would help somewhat against smaller targets, but if that's supposed to be Cerberus' purpose (since she'd still be missing punch to kill something bigger) ... then might as well fit assault launchers on ship with current bonuses, the end effect will be identical and there's no practical reason to make such change. ^^;
Dallenn	Posted - 2005.08.20 07:19:00 - [110] Started a Cerberus/Caldari thread in Features and Ideas board for the discussion. -- Roleplaying in Eve
Bottled Brain	Posted - 2005.08.20 14:53:00 - [111] The range bonus¦ are useless because they are totally impracticable. No cruiser can survive bs fire above 40km (and that¦s with some nanos and a 10mn ab II). How should a cerb get to 150km, a slow and sluggish ship with a pitiful capacitor. Does it have a secret warp drive, will the target wait till the cerb makes a bm and warps back in at 100km ??? .... I don¦t think a bonus to decrease the explosion radius (down to about 60 at lvl 5) is that bad, at least it would compensate the missing drones and it would give the cerb a role without making it totally useless in cruiser to cruiser combat. And the bad damage could be counterbalanced with a 10% damage bonus. In fact the cerb should be a damage dealer, read the description "...is capable of unleashing a hail of missiles to send even the most seasoned armor tankers running for cover" .
Flissifrus	Posted - 2005.08.20 15:07:00 - [112] Originally by: HippoKing 1st bonus - make it all dmg types k I did not give myself the time to read any of the topics about this but the reason they get kinetic missile dmg bonus is because of the storyline of the game. Caldari made kinetic missiles so it is just normal that they get bonus to their missiles. and it is no reason to give them dmg bonus to all dmg types just because ppl are smart and tank kinetic dmg. kinetic is just one of the most used dmg types in the game so it is just normal ppl tank it... you must just face the facts. Caldari made kin missiles and get bonus for using them. ppl tank kinetic because if they would not they would just die much quicker. Sorry to dissapoint you but I doubt CCP will give them bonus to all missile dmg types, that is just too much...
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.08.20 15:33:00 - [113] fliss, u clueless numbnut gotta read the post before u answer, might safe u some reputation
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.08.20 16:11:00 - [114] Edited by: James Lyrus on 20/08/2005 16:11:47 I'm a little suprised no one's mentioned tweaking the 'new' missile stats - explosion radius and explosion velocity. I'd suggest: 5% to damage to all missiles. 10% to missile velocity. 10% reduction in explosion radius 10% increase in explosion velocity. Or something along those lines. Admittedly that'll probably turn the cerb into an impressive anti-frigate platform, but ... (Although I'd admit to no experience of a cerb, where I have flown caracals extensively)
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.08.20 16:41:00 - [115] it would b nice if a caldari hac could kill something bigger then a frig ;)
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.20 17:40:00 - [116] explosive radius is a lame bonus, i dont wanna pwn frigs with a cerberus, its heavy assault it should be for tackling enemy cruisers/heavy assault/bship.. not frigates.. if you want to own frigates get a web, target painter, and fit assaults.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
siim	Posted - 2005.08.20 18:35:00 - [117] It made me cry when I trained Caldari cruiser lv5
Calian	Posted - 2005.08.20 23:27:00 - [118] While they're at it, would be nice if the cerberus actually looked different from the caracal... But anyway, I think one of the best suggestions by far was the 5% damage to all missile types and the 10% reduction in reload times. Would make the cerberus very unique and give it the ability to do very good damage if the pilot is smart, but not so much more damage to make it overpowered for it's range... would also allow it to be less suseptable to jamming since it could switch to fof faster than any other ship. Very much like that idea ------------------------- I hate everyone, except you.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.21 00:32:00 - [119] Originally by: Calian While they're at it, would be nice if the cerberus actually looked different from the caracal... But anyway, I think one of the best suggestions by far was the 5% damage to all missile types and the 10% reduction in reload times. Would make the cerberus very unique and give it the ability to do very good damage if the pilot is smart, but not so much more damage to make it overpowered for it's range... would also allow it to be less suseptable to jamming since it could switch to fof faster than any other ship. Very much like that idea All HAC models are disappointing, a Cerberus is simply a gurista skinned Caracal.. I wanted CCP to strap some phatty launchers on the Cerb model.. but alas.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Sorja	Posted - 2005.08.21 04:37:00 - [120] Tone down the damage reduction formulas and the Cerberus problem is half solved. Let's say CCP improves the Cerberus, it will still leave other missile Caldari ships sub-par (don't know about the Raven, don't fly that thing). I just fought in an interceptor tonight since a long time, and notices my 150's TII excellent shots were doing the exact same damage than my Raptor bloodclaws. Against battleships and with good missile skills. I don't think it's possible to talk about a way to fix the Cerberus without talking about missiles and general.

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