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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
130
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Posted - 2013.03.14 00:48:00 -
[151] - Quote
I'm for dropping the utility high on the INS for a med, just because it will completely break the ship by allowing it to carry a TD =P |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
645
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Posted - 2013.03.14 07:50:00 -
[152] - Quote
Could a nerf to unbonused TD's (Optimal) follow this hookbill stuff please?
TD's are the only ewar on unbonused ships that can totally shut down the enemies offense with only one module and the hookbill is one of the biggest abusers of that.
As things stand, mainly because of how effective td's are, mid slots on frigates are worth about three times what any other slot is worth.
Point and case --> http://shadowcartel.com/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=42604
That heron has no tank, no dps and should not be able to fight anything really. But slap two webs and a TD on there and it just turns into a question of engaging and waiting. Just about every other frig you fight these days that has the midslots for it is using td's and i get it i've abused them a fair bit myself after all.. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Tub Chil
Last Men Standing
35
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Posted - 2013.03.14 10:24:00 -
[153] - Quote
Cap buff was what navy ships really needed, all of them are getting it so i'm happy +some extra defense. firetail still does miserable damage unfortunately
Quote: TD whine TD whine everywhere
I'm sorry but isn't ECM the type of ewar we need to whine about? or LML condors introduced new kind of whine FOTM? I remember just few months ago some people were saying that TD is not bad as it halves optimal or tracking and everyone else was screaming 'dat's nothin' |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
645
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Posted - 2013.03.14 10:57:00 -
[154] - Quote
Tub Chil wrote:Cap buff was what navy ships really needed, all of them are getting it so i'm happy +some extra defense. firetail still does miserable damage unfortunately Quote: TD whine TD whine everywhere
I'm sorry but isn't ECM the type of ewar we need to whine about? or LML condors introduced new kind of whine FOTM? I remember just few months ago some people were saying that TD is not bad as it halves optimal or tracking and everyone else was screaming 'dat's nothin'
Yes because EVERYONE is using unbonused ECM
Stop being bad. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
253
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Posted - 2013.03.14 11:27:00 -
[155] - Quote
A Hawk could have killed a loki yesterday, is the Hawk OP ?
The TD didn't killed this Merlin, the double web did.
I'll cite myself from the other thread if you don't mind :
Quote:Why should a mid slot module costing that many CPU not have a significant effect on the ennemy ship ? There is no reason to use a useless module, and affecting significantly the ennemy ship or your ship is the definition of useful. That's why there is no ECM outside of bonused ships : because they are useless without bonuses. And that's why SD are so rare : they are only useful in very specific situations.
EWAR provide deepness to the game because it allow to break the tank/dps/mobility scheeme. That's a good thing.
In fact, ECM should be buffed. There is counters to TD already, easy counters. In fact, all these TD fit only exists because of the mightyness of blaster frigates at point blanc range. This TD fashion is only the meta evolving to counter blasters, and when counters to TD will popularize, meta will change again, and blaster frigs will come again on top, etc. Rock, Paper, Scissors. |
Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
36
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Posted - 2013.03.14 12:06:00 -
[156] - Quote
id jjust like to point out that you can now get a Hookbill stable with MWD and Longpoint without thee need of cap modules or rigs, woot kitting light missile hookbill jusst got better. Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company Honey Badger Coalition
121
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Posted - 2013.03.14 12:33:00 -
[157] - Quote
Yeeeah, Firetail get's cap and can finally run like a armor rifter, but on steroids!!1 And the dps increase is fcuking A. As is the CPU increase. :) |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
645
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Posted - 2013.03.14 16:19:00 -
[158] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:A Hawk could have killed a loki yesterday, is the Hawk OP ? The TD didn't killed this Merlin, the double web did. I'll cite myself from the other thread if you don't mind : Quote:Why should a mid slot module costing that many CPU not have a significant effect on the ennemy ship ? There is no reason to use a useless module, and affecting significantly the ennemy ship or your ship is the definition of useful. That's why there is no ECM outside of bonused ships : because they are useless without bonuses. And that's why SD are so rare : they are only useful in very specific situations.
EWAR provide deepness to the game because it allow to break the tank/dps/mobility scheeme. That's a good thing. In fact, ECM should be buffed. There is counters to TD already, easy counters. In fact, all these TD fit only exists because of the mightyness of blaster frigates at point blanc range. This TD fashion is only the meta evolving to counter blasters, and when counters to TD will popularize, meta will change again, and blaster frigs will come again on top, etc. Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Not at all, no mwd so one web would have been enough :P But if those had been t2 blasters however it would have been the TD
I was killing a dual rep incursus with neutrons and null with the same fit (took ages though so he brought friends) and without the TD there would be no chance of that. The fact is that that heron fit can kill most turret frigates with relative ease even though all its stats are absolute shite just because of that TD.
And no its not just a blaster thing.. Td's are just as good at shutting down lasers and AC's (Range bonused 200mm AC's being the only exception)
Its not easy to counter, thats just bullshit (Unless you count flying only missile ships as a counter). The fact is that TD's are by FAR the most powerful of the unbonused ewar. A properly piloted td hookbill kills ALL turret frigates/dessies assuming it can get scram on them 8/10. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
157
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Posted - 2013.03.14 18:43:00 -
[159] - Quote
I'm with you Garviel 100%
Standard TDs are way overpowered at the moment.
They either need to be nerfed to 20-30%, or their cap use needs to be so high that they cannot be perma-run.
I'm happy for the hulls with bonuses though (like arbi's etc).
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1141
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:33:00 -
[160] - Quote
Uppsy Daisy wrote: Standard TDs are way overpowered at the moment.
They kind of encourage players to fly missile and drone boats, don't they? |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
253
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:38:00 -
[161] - Quote
A kiting frigate will kill an AB frig with 100% success. Is that OP ? |
Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
36
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:47:00 -
[162] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:A kiting frigate will kill an AB frig with 100% success. Is that OP ?
no cause you should havve a mwd to catch kiters, soo no itts not OP Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
254
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:01:00 -
[163] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:A kiting frigate will kill an AB frig with 100% success. Is that OP ? no cause you should havve a mwd to catch kiters, soo no itts not OP Exactly ! You got it !
And why shouldn't you do anything to counter TD ? |
Lili Lu
718
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:05:00 -
[164] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Uppsy Daisy wrote: Standard TDs are way overpowered at the moment.
They kind of encourage players to fly missile and drone boats, don't they? Except drones can be killed by any weapon system.
Not anything you can do against missiles except try to tank them. Pretty ******** for it to be in a game of the future.
No working anti-missile missiles (defenders that are not a pita to operate) or point defense turrets, No working guidance messer-uppers (communication interference or field to fry internal electronics), No working guidance diversion (flares / decoys), No working micro web fields to slow an advancing missile and reduce its range.
The only thing that sometimes works is a coordinated and multi-ship smartbombing screen in a fleet fight, which depends upon all the missile boats bunched up and firing along the same trajectory and not adjusting to the screen. And those screening smartbombers can themselves be killed (partially by their own buddies). In small scale fights one smartie in a high is not going to screen your own ship from missiles. And btw those smarties do a better job as anti-drone defense.
So really only encouraging missile boat use.
It was comical the de minimus nerf TDs got with the last expansion. These remain too powerful on midslot blessed frigs going against turret boats. And thus the specialized ships are not valued enough. All the non ecm ewar should have got the ecm treatment. In that the modules should have been nerfed more and the ships bonused for the modules should have received higher bonuses.
TDs need a couple anti-missile components/scripts/or even a sister mod. If the backstory is going to be changed to have Minmatar sport more missile boats, then Amarr ewar needs an anti-missile component. Or we could just say that even a partial utility from TD on turrets is still better than TPs. Ugh TPs. but that's for another thread I suppose.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
650
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:06:00 -
[165] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:A kiting frigate will kill an AB frig with 100% success. Is that OP ?
And if TD is the most powerful EWAR, it's only because ECM and SD have been nerfed to ineffectiveness because of whine threads.
Still, drones and missiles ships don't care about TD, and there is some now ; and I'm going to try longer range fit to counter one TD fits. Granted 2 TD are very hard to counter with turrets, but hey, the guy used 2 slots to counter these.
You are quite terrible at logic, i don't have the patience for a silly arguement, i've already stated my case fully, if you don't agree.
Meh. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
36
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Posted - 2013.03.14 22:52:00 -
[166] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:A kiting frigate will kill an AB frig with 100% success. Is that OP ? no cause you should havve a mwd to catch kiters, soo no itts not OP Exactly ! You got it ! And why shouldn't you do anything to counter TD ?
Fit a tracking enhancer or tracking computer, problem solved, you just countered a TD
For every problem there is a solution you just need to find it Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1142
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Posted - 2013.03.14 23:43:00 -
[167] - Quote
I sense that somebody's hookbill touched your drones inappropriately.
Drones are getting better with the damage amplifiers, and the drone destroyers are great little ships that are very resiliant against td's. And with the rebalanced frigs (Tristan for one), neuts + drones are very effective. Things are looking up. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
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Posted - 2013.03.14 23:48:00 -
[168] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:Fit a tracking enhancer or tracking computer, problem solved, you just countered a TD
For every problem there is a solution you just need to find it And the 2-3 slots you need for those TE's/TC's to actually counter it after stacking is accounted for? We are talking frigs, slots are and have always been in short supply, which is why TD's are so damn effective as there is no viable module based counter.
TD's should get the ECM treatment and be nerfed into the ground for all but the bonused ships where they get a boost (same goes for damps for that matter). They'd still be useful on 'off' hulls but not overpowering as they are now, hoping it will come to pass when/if CCP finally gets around to revising eWar as promised for going on two years
As for kiters defeating AB fits (brawlers) .. 'meh'. Kiting pilots are usually of poor quality, both experience and skills wise (or they wouldn't use silly kiting!) so one is normally able to force his orbit into an ellipse and escape as his point drops for that crucial second or two .. he will need insane speed/point-range to prevent it (ie. if he's Loki'ed you are screwed ) |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
254
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Posted - 2013.03.15 09:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
ECM should get the TD treatment and be viable on every hull.
And most of the time, one TE will mostly counter one TD. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 10:09:00 -
[170] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ECM should get the TD treatment and be viable on every hull. Because ECM worked so well before it was changed to its current state, right? What is next, roll back the changes to NOS from back in the day? Any module that becomes mandatory to stay competitive is bad, yet that is where TD's are heading. Little wonder that the powers that be chose to hold off on the plans to let them affect missiles as well.
Bouh Revetoile wrote:And most of the time, one TE will mostly counter one TD. In what world? Even if the TD is unscripted you'll lose optimal and retain a pittance of the fall-off boost, but only absolute beginners forget scripts on fits that depend on TD's (ie. vast majority fielding them) so you are looking at -30% optimal even with TE. You literally need 2-3 modules to counter that single TD, which is why multi-midslot frigates are so powerful .. value of a mid slots is simply higher than the low ditto. Not as pronounced on larger hulls due to weapon-range vs. point-range but it is still there, the mid value is something I personally think CCP is downplaying on purpose to avoid having to factor it into balance passes as it would require a lot more spread-sheeting. |
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
254
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:21:00 -
[171] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:In what world? Even if the TD is unscripted you'll lose optimal and retain a pittance of the fall-off boost, but only absolute beginners forget scripts on fits that depend on TD's (ie. vast majority fielding them) so you are looking at -30% optimal even with TE. You literally need 2-3 modules to counter that single TD, which is why multi-midslot frigates are so powerful .. value of a mid slots is simply higher than the low ditto. Not as pronounced on larger hulls due to weapon-range vs. point-range but it is still there, the mid value is something I personally think CCP is downplaying on purpose to avoid having to factor it into balance passes as it would require a lot more spread-sheeting. Counter may not have been the best word to say it, but if you can hit your target despite the TD, then you kind of countered it. You don't need to counter 100% of the effect of the TD to do it. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
669
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 11:36:00 -
[172] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote: I sense that somebody's hookbill touched your drones inappropriately. Drones are getting better with the damage amplifiers, and the drone destroyers are great little ships that are very resiliant against td's. And with the rebalanced frigs (Tristan for one), neuts + drones are very effective. Things are looking up. True, they have made some hulls work with drones better, but it still does not address that drones are in horrible need of rebalance, to my knowledge they have not been touched since Red Moon Rising. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
565
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 12:11:00 -
[173] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: True, they have made some hulls work with drones better, but it still does not address that drones are in horrible need of rebalance, to my knowledge they have not been touched since Red Moon Rising.
You've missed all the new drone modules recently then? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 13:03:00 -
[174] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Counter may not have been the best word to say it, but if you can hit your target despite the TD, then you kind of countered it. You don't need to counter 100% of the effect of the TD to do it. True, but we are talking frigates. A single kilometre or two (5-10% for a Slicer) easily negates so much damage that you might as well not be there .. TD's are becoming the norm because they are very easy to use and have an abnormally powerful effect in relation to the cost involved (cap/range/slot).
In a few more months, if nothing is done, TD's will be omni-present with mainly 3+ mid frigates being used and all of Eve will suffer for it .. it is as far as I am concerned the poster child for the eWar revamp campaign (could just be my coprs Amarr only creed talking though as lasers are hardest hit due to being almost entirely optimal based )
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
652
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Posted - 2013.03.15 13:34:00 -
[175] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:ECM should get the TD treatment and be viable on every hull.
And most of the time, one TE will mostly counter one TD.
A good example of the fact that not all opinions are equal
Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
669
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Posted - 2013.03.15 13:47:00 -
[176] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: True, they have made some hulls work with drones better, but it still does not address that drones are in horrible need of rebalance, to my knowledge they have not been touched since Red Moon Rising.
You've missed all the new drone modules recently then? So what is better on most ships, a stasis web or a omnidirectional tracking link? A MWD or a drone navigation computer? How about a turret vs a drone link augmenter? The DDA is usable on a few drone ships again many times it is better to fit a mag stab. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Mr Hyde113
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
7
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:30:00 -
[177] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: True, they have made some hulls work with drones better, but it still does not address that drones are in horrible need of rebalance, to my knowledge they have not been touched since Red Moon Rising.
You've missed all the new drone modules recently then? So what is better on most ships, a stasis web or a omnidirectional tracking link? A MWD or a drone navigation computer? How about a turret vs a drone link augmenter? The DDA is usable on a few drone ships again many times it is better to fit a mag stab.
^This Exactly^
They are gimmicky at best, with outrageous CPU reqs on CPU tight ships (Ishtar for example).
Say an Ishtar wants to put 2 drone links in the spare highs for more sentry range. GL finding the 50 something CPU per mod to do it. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
565
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:46:00 -
[178] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: True, they have made some hulls work with drones better, but it still does not address that drones are in horrible need of rebalance, to my knowledge they have not been touched since Red Moon Rising.
You've missed all the new drone modules recently then? So what is better on most ships, a stasis web or a omnidirectional tracking link? A MWD or a drone navigation computer? How about a turret vs a drone link augmenter? The DDA is usable on a few drone ships again many times it is better to fit a mag stab.
All of these are absurd comparisons. It's like asking whether artillery or ACs are better, without defining the scenario.
At least the guy above me brought up a sensible point, which is the excessive CPU of some of these modules. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
254
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:03:00 -
[179] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:A good example of the fact that not all opinions are equal A good example of the fact that not all coments are equal |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
652
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:07:00 -
[180] - Quote
Drones need a fix that is not connected to their stats
The fact of the matter is that drones are idiots who want nothing more than to a) fly around doing nothing or b) get killed.
They are terrible at managing their prop mods making them over shoot, fall behind and basically do everythign they can to not apply damage. All this while being ridiculously easy to kill (An incursus with neutrons takes down hobs in 2-3 volleys) Add to this that managing your drones is a pain in the ass since you can see their health in your bay so recalling a damaged one to send out a recharged one its dysfunctional at best.
The entire drone interface needs to be fixed (Using drop down menus in a speedy frig fight is bad mkay?), drone AI needs to be improved and drones themselves need some love too.. Not making them so ridiculously easy to kill might be one way. All these problems are bad on light drones, get terrible for mediums and go to being down right laughable for ogres (the fact that ccp keeps trying make us use oversized drones doesn't really help) Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
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