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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Rynnik
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
66
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:39:00 -
[181] - Quote
I think it is a great sign for the proposed Navy Frig changes that the discussion is covering pretty much anything and everything other than the specific changes themselves! I also think it is great that such an interesting sidebar discussion of related topics is being constructively covered.
As for TDs:
TDs are an EWAR that magnifies the effects of range control, especially at the frig combat level.
If you have range control on an opponent you can mitigate the effects of any turret DPS your opponent is fielding with an unbonused TD GÇô this is true if you are flying a MWD TD condor or a scram/web/TD hookbill. Alternatively with range control you can negate the effect of an opponent TDing you by controlling your range or reducing your tracking in order to make sure your turret DPS is still effective. TDs just turn the constant and generally well understood issue of range control in frig engagements into an all or nothing proposition and that seems to be what people have an issue with.
So the OPness is a range control problem more than a specifically TD problem. TDs just magnify the issue against the sub-set of PvP frigs fielding turrets (ie. the most popular subset in game), so it is very fair to ask the question of whether magnifying the importance of something that is so key to frig combat (range control) is a good thing or not.
The reason the Slicer is so wtfpwned by TDs is because its range control is completely dependant on being outside of scram range GÇô and a single scripted unbonused TD makes its DPS untenable outside of scram range. The reason the Hookbill is so OP with a TD is because of its already strong range control abilities (both MWD kite fit, and scram/web fit).
So TDs are definitely an issue, and I think it will always be a contentious issue, but for my perspective reducing the range control of the hookbill slightly (agility nerf) is a pretty good nerf to the problem of OP TDs on them. And I am pretty okay with a Slicer being countered by a TD (and it is the reason I would never support a 3rd mid on the hull GÇô it would be worse than the current Condor craze). I also hope that CCP makes TDs (and TCs/TEs) affect missiles soon. But I agree that a very very close eye needs to be kept on the balance of TDs as an unbonused EWAR and I think Fozzie and the rest of the balance team knows and understands this already.
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Meditril
T.R.I.A.D
248
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:01:00 -
[182] - Quote
There is no problem with TD. The real problem is that Defender Missiles do not work properly and that they can't be fitted onto a gun-only ship. Solve these two and the kiting condor / hookbill will lose its horror because now you can prepare to counter its dps.
Coming back to Navy Frigates: I still think that the Firetail needs at least the same CPU as the Comet since it has more medium slots which means that there are more CPU consuming modules to fit. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
553
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:11:00 -
[183] - Quote
Meditril wrote:There is no problem with TD. The real problem is that Defender Missiles do not work properly and that they can't be fitted onto a gun-only ship. Solve these two and the kiting condor / hookbill will lose its horror because now you can prepare to counter its dps.
Coming back to Navy Frigates: I still think that the Firetail needs at least the same CPU as the Comet since it has more medium slots which means that there are more CPU consuming modules to fit.
Im thinking anti missile lasers. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1144
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Posted - 2013.03.15 19:00:00 -
[184] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote: Im thinking anti missile lasers.
"chaff" launched from probe launcher (use that utility high slot for something). |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3749
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Posted - 2013.03.15 20:07:00 -
[185] - Quote
Or both ideally.
There should be a anti-missile deterrent for launchers (working defender missiles), turrets (flack cannon), and utility highs (chaff launcher).
Optionally some of these defenses might also be effective against drones, but that would necessitate drones getting a rework in the first place to be more effective (harder to kill, obedient, smarter).
Of course, drones need to be reworked anyway as far as balance against each racial type, and the interface needs to be reworked to make them easier to control effectively (similar to controlling your other weapons systems). Drones slots, if you will. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
59
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Posted - 2013.03.16 08:48:00 -
[186] - Quote
What are the changes of swapping the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus on firetail? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
655
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Posted - 2013.03.16 11:24:00 -
[187] - Quote
Defender missiles were a bad idea mkay? Anyhow i don't think introducing a way to **** over missiles would make TD's balanced.
Just reduce the effectiveness on them so that instead of being awesome on frigates they turn to being just good. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
555
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Posted - 2013.03.16 18:00:00 -
[188] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Defender missiles were a bad idea mkay? Anyhow i don't think introducing a way to **** over missiles would make TD's balanced.
Just reduce the effectiveness on them so that instead of being awesome on frigates they turn to being just good. Kinda hard to do, If you nerf them just a tiny bit to much they will end up just being bad, if you nerf them to little nothing changes.
Maybe if the differences in tracking between different caliber weapons in the same size class were bigger that would be an interesting thing.
Neutrons will have 35% below average tracking, ions will be average, and electrons will be 35% above average, so if you want to be resistant to TD's you would have to fit a different size weapon. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
659
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Posted - 2013.03.16 21:58:00 -
[189] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Defender missiles were a bad idea mkay? Anyhow i don't think introducing a way to **** over missiles would make TD's balanced.
Just reduce the effectiveness on them so that instead of being awesome on frigates they turn to being just good. Kinda hard to do, If you nerf them just a tiny bit to much they will end up just being bad, if you nerf them to little nothing changes. Maybe if the differences in tracking between different caliber weapons in the same size class were bigger that would be an interesting thing. Neutrons will have 35% below average tracking, ions will be average, and electrons will be 35% above average, so if you want to be resistant to TD's you would have to fit a different size weapon.
Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each) Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
255
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Posted - 2013.03.16 23:03:00 -
[190] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each) Yeah, just get rid of EWAR so we can brawl in peace with a cookie cutter fit...
I may understand the hate on ECM, and I wasn't there when SD where supposedly OP, but I don't see any reason to through TD to the bin. EWAR only add possibilities to the game. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
533
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Posted - 2013.03.16 23:04:00 -
[191] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each) Speaking of damps, or rather the boost they could use, why is it they only affect lock range/speed?
Why don't they damp all electronics .. should apply their dampening to a targets sensor strength as well (ie. debuff prior to throwing ECM around) .. hell, let them be able to damp cloaks/stabs/etc. as well for some extra utility (combine with changing super point immunity to a very high built-in stab count for 'lulz'), I miss shooting Gallente recons!
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Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
137
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Posted - 2013.03.17 00:03:00 -
[192] - Quote
Curious when these changes are going to be on the test server?
I have fought a few firetails recently, I suspect armour tanking 1.5 did more for this ship and the comet than people might think; the proposed changes may create a very nasty ship almost overpowered. Thing with the Firetail is that with itGÇÖs speed it can almost always disengage.
I think one of the problems with E-war is that unlike guns they are not scaled in affects and fittings with ship size and given that combat takes place around fixed ranges Scram/long point range then these effects are felt more by frigates. I would perhaps suggest introducing a new TD with the current if not pre recent nerf stats but with fittings more like a medium neut, this would allow frigate TDGÇÖs to be nerfed a bit more while still allowing for a more effective module, this could even be expanded to other E-war mods with dedicated ships getting fitting role bonuses so they can still fit the more effective modules.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
660
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Posted - 2013.03.17 00:05:00 -
[193] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each) Yeah, just get rid of EWAR so we can brawl in peace with a cookie cutter fit... I may understand the hate on ECM, and I wasn't there when SD where supposedly OP, but I don't see any reason to through TD to the bin. EWAR only add possibilities to the game.
Dude ewar isn't useless
Have you tried fighting a dual damp condor? Its ******* ridiculous..
But anyhow i think ewar should be useful but not great on unbonused ships, but thats just me. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
410
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Posted - 2013.03.17 01:14:00 -
[194] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Commander Ted wrote: Im thinking anti missile lasers.
"chaff" launched from probe launcher (use that utility high slot for something). Electronic "Chaff" could also work. After all, other ewar does not require ammo, so i dont see a need for anti missile ewar to need ammo either. Some sort of point blank em field could interfere with missile guidance systems, reducing the effectiveness of the strike. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
256
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Posted - 2013.03.17 11:13:00 -
[195] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Dude ewar isn't useless
Have you tried fighting a dual damp condor? Its ******* ridiculous..
But anyhow i think ewar should be useful but not great on unbonused ships, but thats just me. Problem is that it's not only you, and that there s no real arguments against EWAR besides the "it's OP".
As I said, EWAR is only good with speed superiority, because that's the only way to use it offensively : the protection the EWAR provide is not counterable without speed, so if you don't have speed superiority that will only prevent the ennemy to use some tactics (defensive use).
If EWAR is not useful enough, the defensive use is impossible, and only speed superiority module are useful (it's already almost the case).
Then, the only ships able to use EWAR will be fast shield ships, because only the offensive use will be possible, and only the ship able to stack at least two module will have enough of an effect to consider using it.
The dual SD condor is not more ridiculous than a dual rep incursus : catch the condor, and he is ******* dead ; kite the incursus, and he is ******* dead.
In frigate warfare, TD don't rule *any* thing, speed superiority does. That's why a lot of people consider 3 mid slot for AB+scram+web the minimum to be competitive for a brawling frig. And that's why Hookbill are so powerful : 5 mid slots allow for the best speed control ability, on top of missiles not affected by tracking and then impossible to fool with speed superiority. TD is only a cherry on the cake, only widening the gap between the speed leader and the speed controlled.
But nerfing web may not be the solution, hence why I think the only problem TD may show could be a problem with the hull (condor, hookbill) or with small missiles overbuffed last time (GMP skill on rockets + LML multiple buffs).
PS : tl;dr : unless people start using TD instead of web, no, TD aren't overpowered. |
Tractus Vesica
Hounds Of War WHY so Seri0Us
9
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Posted - 2013.03.17 11:17:00 -
[196] - Quote
Touch my hookbill again and I swear to god I'll cut you CCP. Paranoia is the glue which binds 0.0 together. |
Colt Blackhawk
Forced Penetration Hopeless Addiction
79
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Posted - 2013.03.17 12:03:00 -
[197] - Quote
Sorry but these changes are total fail. The firetail needed a buff--->Okay. Well done Slower Hook with more cap??? --> Fail. CCP reduces the Hook to only two fits that will work. Complete fail. These 2 fits won-¦t need the additional cap^^...... CCP really hates caldari. Comet buff---> Whaaaaat? It really didn-¦t need buff. Complete fail again. Slicer get a buf and a lil bit more cap---------> A beginning. Slicer already has HUGE problems because only 2 mid slots available. But it would need +0.5 instead of some +0.2 cap/s to make it really competitive again.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
660
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Posted - 2013.03.17 12:21:00 -
[198] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Dude ewar isn't useless
Have you tried fighting a dual damp condor? Its ******* ridiculous..
But anyhow i think ewar should be useful but not great on unbonused ships, but thats just me. Problem is that it's not only you, and that there s no real arguments against EWAR besides the "it's OP". As I said, EWAR is only good with speed superiority, because that's the only way to use it offensively : the protection the EWAR provide is not counterable without speed, so if you don't have speed superiority that will only prevent the ennemy to use some tactics (defensive use). If EWAR is not useful enough, the defensive use is impossible, and only speed superiority module are useful (it's already almost the case). Then, the only ships able to use EWAR will be fast shield ships, because only the offensive use will be possible, and only the ship able to stack at least two module will have enough of an effect to consider using it. The dual SD condor is not more ridiculous than a dual rep incursus : catch the condor, and he is ******* dead ; kite the incursus, and he is ******* dead. In frigate warfare, TD don't rule *any* thing, speed superiority does. That's why a lot of people consider 3 mid slot for AB+scram+web the minimum to be competitive for a brawling frig. And that's why Hookbill are so powerful : 5 mid slots allow for the best speed control ability, on top of missiles not affected by tracking and then impossible to fool with speed superiority. TD is only a cherry on the cake, only widening the gap between the speed leader and the speed controlled. But nerfing web may not be the solution, hence why I think the only problem TD may show could be a problem with the hull (condor, hookbill) or with small missiles overbuffed last time (GMP skill on rockets + LML multiple buffs). PS : tl;dr : unless people start using TD instead of web, no, TD aren't overpowered.
My arguement is that as someone who flies frigates a lot i notice they are a ruling part of the metagame and they give a disproportional advantage for one midslot.
I don't know any good frig pilots that disagree. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.03.17 13:15:00 -
[199] - Quote
1) Navy frigs: only RF Firetail needs fix. It is bad when it takes months to slightly fix ONE frig.
2) T1 frigs need some polishing. Look:
Changed merlin role to brawler, but didn't fixed secondary stats = "can't damp that" frig.
Incursus is more agile than rifter, speed is only 50 m/s lower, dps with nulls is better on almost all ranges, tank is better, almost everything is better. The king is dead long live the king?
3) EAFs need a revamp badly. EAFs are worse than T1 analogs.
4) Intys need some love, especially battle ones. Crow sux since nano nerf, maybe it is time to un-sux it? Battle intys like ranis/sader have too narrow niches coz of pirate/faction frigs.
Generally I want to see more kiters and more fast and agile ships countering kiters, being bored of AB faggotry.
PS for guys complaining about dualdamp condor: it isn't ridiculous, it is you flying slow stuff, unable to protect yourself from kiters. |
Azn Assassin
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.17 15:06:00 -
[200] - Quote
CALDARI NAVY HOOKBILL: Caldari Frigate bonuses: +20% to Kinetic missile damage, +10% to EM, Explosive and Thermal missile damage and +10% to missile velocity per level Slot layout: 3H, 5M, 2L; 0 turrets, 3 launchers Fittings: 37 PWG, 165 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull): 725 (+21) / 550 (+24) / 600 (+131) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 (+19) / 150 (-37.5) s / 2 (+0.5013) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 360 / 3.3 / 1081000 (+100000) / 3.34s (+0.31) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km (+10) / 600 (+50) / 5 (+1) Sensor strength: 13 Gravimetric (+1) Signature radius: 40
This is absolutely a terrible idea, this frigate is already insanely over powered with tracking disruptors.. Giving this ship more hit points will make it pratically undefeatable by any gun ship of the same class. If anything this ships mid slots need to be reduced or the CPU needs to be reduced to put it in line with other ships. It should be on par with ships of its class not in a league way above them. |
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Roseline Penshar
Enlightened Academy
5
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Posted - 2013.03.17 15:19:00 -
[201] - Quote
lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1149
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Posted - 2013.03.17 16:03:00 -
[202] - Quote
Roseline Penshar wrote:lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range targeting range is for resistance against damps.
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Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
414
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Posted - 2013.03.17 16:40:00 -
[203] - Quote
Roseline Penshar wrote:lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range Its a hybrid boat.
T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff.
Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more... MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
555
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Posted - 2013.03.17 18:57:00 -
[204] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Well unbonused ECM is bad, unbonused damps are bad, why shouldn't unbonused TD's be bad? (Unless you have two of each)
Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.03.17 19:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Roseline Penshar wrote:lol just look at the merlin and realize 50 km targeting range......really? for a brawler? suit for a kiter that much of targeting range targeting range is for resistance against damps. Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus. Now it isn't.
Hakan MacTrew wrote: Its a hybrid boat.
T2 150mm Rails with Spike S has a 32km optimal with max skills and no mods. With 2 TC2's and 1 TE2 thast 46km optimal with 14km falloff.
Suddenly that 50km range isn't so ludicrous any more...
Suddenly all ships have longrange and shortrange weapons. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1151
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:04:00 -
[206] - Quote
Captain Nares wrote: Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus. Now it isn't.
It's because every Caldari ship in the game has superior lock range and sensor strength compared to every other ship in the same class. Caldari is the "e-war resistant" race. |
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.03.17 21:32:00 -
[207] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Captain Nares wrote: Let's be honest it is because merlin was "sniper" platform with optimal range bonus. Now it isn't.
It's because every Caldari ship in the game has superior lock range and sensor strength compared to every other ship in the same class. Caldari is the "e-war resistant" race.
Pic #2 smartass edition
http://i.imgur.com/F8rq7pK.png
Why condor isn't as "e-war resistant" as merlin? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
535
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Posted - 2013.03.17 22:37:00 -
[208] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Well ECM is OP, a TD can be countered by flying better, being jammed can not. Strong Ewar is nessecary for interesting fits. Why should every pvp ship be 1 web scram and prop? ECM was OP, now its just annoying as hell, but that is something that won't change until the underlying mechanic is changed. Strong eWar does add some flavour, but there is a rather broad line (ie. not fine at all) between adding flavour and being OP. As for fits, why should every PvP ship be disruptor, prop and TD?
ECM is still very viable on unbonused hulls in the frigate/destroyer sphere as sensors without the militia implants are ****-poor for the most part, against larger hulls however you do need bonuses to make a difference .. TD's on the other hand will reduce everything from a faction fit marauder to a pirate frig to a waste of time regardless of platform used and it does that at optimals greater than what is achievable with ECM (on bonused hulls!).
Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's?
As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said?
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Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
43
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Posted - 2013.03.17 22:56:00 -
[209] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said?
Well... regarding 1st post by CCP Fozzie:
FIXING ONE (1.0, ONE-POINT-ZERO) FRIGATE ISN'T ENOUGH for "rebalance", "revamp" or "patch". |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
555
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Posted - 2013.03.18 01:16:00 -
[210] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Question: If ECM was broken due to being too effective at too great ranges on too many hulls, what does that make TD's? As for the matter at hand, since we have moved completely away from commenting on the thread topic, am I to assume that all that needed to be said has been said?
When your under the effects of a TD, you can still scram, web,damp,jam, do perfect missile damage, (possibly use turrets to still do some damage), change drone targets, and neut your opponent.
When you are jammed you are helpless in every single way, your range is now 0, and your tracking is now 0. When that 20 second cycle is done you may already be half dead.
but yea its off topic. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
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