On top of that, you have no problem with everyone having a web (or you wouldn't consider everyone using one) but everyone using a TD is a sign that TD is OP ?

I definitely understand the frustration...

On top of that, you have no problem with everyone having a web (or you wouldn't consider everyone using one) but everyone using a TD is a sign that TD is OP ?

Are you seriously comparing a 10km tackle module that, after recent changes (mainly tiericide), has only a situational advantage with a 70+km that can neuter any gunboat within its range?

Web ? Situational ?! This module a frigate is considered unapt to brawl if unable to fit it ? You can't be serious !

As for TD, a module only working against turrets (hence useless against about 40% of combat ships), useless without speed superiority, counterable with long range weapon or speed (not to mention tracking/range modules), neutering is not the right word.

I may understand the anti ECM crowd, because of the mecanic of ECM and the only counter being useless for almost any other cases, but TD ? That's only childish cries... Moreover when you consider what is actually needed to stop these cries (same as ECM) and what that would do to the metagame.

You wouldn't suggest scrams are OP just because everyone has them..

Webs simply aren't comparable to TD's. But anyhow, i've let myself get baited into this argument quite enough, especially considering that i'm arguing against someone that uses dual rep incursi.. =/

Unbonused Td's are a balance issue right now, webs are not and thats that. ^^

No one is comparing webs to TDs, we have said that the COMBINATION is lethal.

Anyway, I didn't really feel that TDs were that OP, but I can see that theyvare a little too effective while unbonused.

Is it possible to make TDs work in reverse with regards to their optimal and falloff? Have them be weak close up but stronger from far away?

Unbonused Td's are a balance issue right now, webs are not and thats that. ^^

I didn't actually read your post other than that last lines so i'm not sure what you argued but i'm sure it was fascinating.

I would encourage you to go back and read it, because you are basically making your argument irrelevant by not explaining your perspective within the context of controling range. Bouh has outlined a huge flaw in your general whining about TDs.

So, Garviel pretend I am stupid for a minute and explain to me how I can use an overpowered TD to win in a situation where I don't have range control.

You can't..

Quite sure i never claimed TD's worked without range control.. What i said is that they amplify the benefits of range control a bit too much. And believe me, i'm not just talking here from the perspective of someone getting killed by TD's.. I've used td's a LOT myself and a lot of my favorite ships are largely able to handle td's.

TD's aren't a method of control, they amplify control. So obviously if you don't have any control they do jack **** for you. Doesn't mean they aren't too good though.

Why can't we move the utility high to a mid on the Slicer to make it more effective, especially in non-kiting roles?
I definitely understand the frustration that can come from having to work around having only two mids on a ship, but I also don't think the answer is to give every ship the full set of three. The Slicer has an effective niche with its optimal bonus that it serves well, and outside the box fittings are quite possible thanks to the element of surprise. I don't expect that we will give it a third mid in this pass.

How about another turret mountpoint, or another low slot?

...It could brawl with two mids but the DPS is a bit low so a launcher may make sense in fact given the drone based overhaul of amarr ships giving it a small bandwidth say 10mbit may be appropriate...

NO! Not more of those infernal drones/missiles, we have so few gun boats left.

It brawls fine, just requires 2-3 rig slots for tracking and makes MWD use a dicey proposition

TDs are OP enough that you can run around killing most frigates in a heron, which has precisely 0 bonuses related to combat. (Just a lot of mids)

Can't kill dual rep incursuses =< They are to good at killing drones and end up permatanking you =<

Its pretty amusing though

Still get a sneaky suspicion the proposed firetail is going to be overpowered.

Its possible to kill them. Bleed them dry of cap boosters, and use tracking speed script to make it harder for it to kill your drones. You dont even need to range TD it to take no damage at 7k.

But yeah, because ewar is so OP, you can use a completely unbonused frigate to kill most t1, faction and pirate frigates without a care

I feel quite the opposite :S

All in all at min frig lvl 5, firetail gets a grand total of %12.5 increase on DPS. Not bad but will not make a big change.

The other REAL big buff to firetail is done to all ships: Capacitor.

Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 280 (+30) / 140s (-47.5) / 2 (+0.667)

All faction ships are brought to "2" base recharge value. Firetails old capacitor really sucked. With the new one firetail gets a whopping %50 increase on cap recharge, which will enable some previously not so valid fits (Arty kiter for example)

What I would REALLY like is changing the tracking bonus with a falloff bonus. We already have 2 tracking bonused ships (rifter and slasher).

And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?

Because in this case the weakness is "it uses guns"

Edit: Imagine if a badger could fly around and kill cynabals and thoraxs with ease. It would be pretty stupid, wouldnt it?

Nope, the weakness is "it uses short range guns". Short range guns are prone to be outranged.

BTW, the problem can only exists at frigate level because of the range of small SR weapons.

And why should a Heron not be able to kill a combat ship by exploiting its weeknesses ?

Nope, the weakness is "it uses short range guns". Short range guns are prone to be outranged.

BTW, the problem can only exists at frigate level because of the range of small SR weapons.