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Tank CEO
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Posted - 2003.07.24 19:56:00 -
[1]
Can you blow them up and get the loot inside and how many hit points do they have?
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.24 19:58:00 -
[2]
1 million, last I heard. So... no, not really.
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.07.24 20:09:00 -
[3]
they actualy have... 10m hp... so yeah GL trying to blow one up :P
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Endureth
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Posted - 2003.07.24 21:57:00 -
[4]
It's a spite thing. The pirate might blow up a ship, but he's not getting the goods. Just wasting ammo. Not only that but a pirate scanning a cargo hold won't know exactly what's in the containers.
Pirates have shafted players long enough, only fair that those with the know-how can shaft em back.
-E
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Maarek Steele
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Maarek Steele on 24/07/2003 22:04:31
Can other players scoop it to their cargo bays?
Introduce a Hacking skill that allows people to hack the containers.
Failing that, we could, out of spite, take the containers anyway. We may not have profited from it, but lord knows it had to be valuable to be in there so neither will you.
We'll make it up as technically only spent the time and ammunition blowing you up. You, on the other hand, are out a valuable BP, Piece of Equipment, or whatever else you put in there.
No matter how far you are willing to take something 'out of spite', the attacker will always win because the final one uppence will always be his.
-=Maarek Steele=-
Have gun, will travel. |
Viceroy
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:10:00 -
[6]
GG CCP, secure cans rock. you just put all your stuff in a secure can before you get blown up, and come back to collect it when the hostiles are gone. And guess what, the cans dont blow up. Plus you cant open them with any module/skill, so your loot is safe. Run into pirates? No problem, just put all your "hard-earned" loot into a secure can and leave it for pickup later.
Thats just silly.
The cans all have "Made in Carebear Land - Product of Barney & The Bastards Inc." written on them.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:13:00 -
[7]
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/07/2003 22:14:03
Edited by: drunkenmaster on 24/07/2003 22:13:55
Yeah, they still have to come back to it.
Like repeat customers.
And seeing as m0o can't destroy them, who gets the blame for leaving the cans there now?
*pictures 150 cans floating around the warp-in at FD-MLJ
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Maarek Steele
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:18:00 -
[8]
Hmm I can see a new point evolving for pirates, if you're carrying a secure can, pay 10m minimum or get podkilled repeatedly when you come to pick it up.
-=Maarek Steele=-
Have gun, will travel. |
eriq
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: eriq on 24/07/2003 22:40:26
i have zero opinion regarding the secure cans but as i read the comments above i'm struck by the attitudes of some players.
what complete jerks you all must be in real life to just sit around your computers and scheme about how to many different ways you can be a jerk to your fellow players and the different machinations you come up with for the sole purpose of being a jerk and ruining the gameplay of others.
i feel sorry for all of you...
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Maarek Steele
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:41:00 -
[10]
How were any of us being Jerks?
How pitiful are you to take anything about a game as seriously as real life (other than RL threats made in game of course).
-=Maarek Steele=-
Have gun, will travel. |
Tnelyos
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:49:00 -
[11]
what's the cargo cap of the large containers? i see two numbers listed.
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Ivanav Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:55:00 -
[12]
Yup the word is out...
Good luck ever getting any "carred" items anymore. Eveyone is now placing all the items in secure containers.
Look on the bright side, you can allways sell all the great items they had equipted.
And so it begins.... |
Maarek Steele
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Posted - 2003.07.24 22:57:00 -
[13]
Ah well, its always more profitable to just blow everyone up and take their modules anyway.
-=Maarek Steele=-
Have gun, will travel. |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:01:00 -
[14]
c'mon, we're not being jerks. This thread is quite civilised.
Piracy!=jerkery.
Anyway... The idea for picking the lock is a valid one, as every action should have a possible counteraction. ie. Warp jammers/warp stabilisers, more powerful weapons/more powerful shields. missiles/defender missiles. as to how long it would take, and other details, that would be up to someone far more thinky than me.
From reports I've seen/heard, these containers have 1 million HP, and last over 15 hours in space. going back to the FD-MLJ example from earlier: Who is going to go back there to pick up their dropped cargo? Not many, I'd bet. If it is worth less than a million, it's probably not worth the risk of rescuing, so it will just sit there. This is not good.
Bear in mind that I have never entered combat with one of these cans, so my data here is mostly second hand. But from good sources.
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The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:17:00 -
[15]
Edited by: The Reverend on 24/07/2003 23:19:44
(Sorry, I don't tend to rant often if I can help it, I prefer a clear cut argument, but my bloods boiling)
What CCP gives with one hand - they take away with another.
I'm sick of hearing that we use cargo containers to lag out gates, as we have stated many times, they were used to block targetting and this was done once. I for one hate having the things lying around. However - as you all seem to think we use them, we might as well start, as CCP in its wisdom has given us the perfect excuse (the fact we can't blow them up) blame them from now on - when you arrive in system to get lagged out.
For those of you not already aware of it - CCP's other cuddy carebear solution, the super region systems (1.0) gates have a flaw as well.
1. No sentry guns at the gates.
2. CONCORD ratings are low in these systems meaning you can either blow up the ships in most cases with a decent group or easily avoid them. m0o realised this over 2 weeks ago, we filed a bug report and demostrated the bug to a polaris observer when challenged that we were (yet again) accused of lying.
We made a point of not forming blockades in these systems (except one day when the constant survellience of a polaris member annoyed us ) fiquring that if we did CCP's normal arsey answer would make travelling through empire space impossible for everyone.
Well if this is the damn reaction then CCP can go jump off into a hot pool, maybe they might have some damn sense knocked into them.
I have no problem with secure containers, given the amount of ore thiefs out there I can understand that reaction and even applaud it. But to make a container virtually immune to destruction is not roleplaying, its just plain bloody stupid. If you MUST put such idiotic ideas into action, then arrange it so these containers are only immune if the player is within 10km or it - or even better - have it so the owners shields overlap within 5km to protect it. That would add realism to the game, would allow CONCORD to react if another ship shot the thing (as effectivily that owner was being attacked) and yet allow ships to destroy cargo containers if a ship has left it stranded, or been destoyed.
Or a hacking skill as someone suggested earlier (again providing the container had been left in space abandoned)
m0ovie links |
Macumba
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:23:00 -
[16]
...Or instead of getting all sweaty palmed at the thought of being able to finally justify pod-killing people, instead of doing it "because you can".
Why not hold the goods to ransom? If they're of value and intact then people will probably pay extortionate amounts to get them back. What would you do to get that battleship BP back? Risk a few more ships being destroyed or put your hand in your pocket? I know which one I'd choose.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:33:00 -
[17]
Maybe I am annoyed because it has made a pirates life even harder, but you got to admit, a cargo container (without shields) along and defenceless with more hit points that a fleet of battleships. The logic is just totally flawed. I'm not complaining about the fact they are locked, I applaud that idea, we can still hold containers to ransom - but the option to blow them up if they won't negioate is all I'm asking for. Even 500 hp would be better than 1.000.000 + like it is now.
m0ovie links |
StealthNet
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:35:00 -
[18]
You can't put anything inside a container if it is in your cargo hold.
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The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:37:00 -
[19]
BTW Macumba, if Oracle comes across a ship carrying slaves now and destroys it - how are they going to feel now that won't bea ble to open the container (assuming its locked), or destroy the container to put the poor slaves out of thier misery?
m0ovie links |
The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:38:00 -
[20]
Sorry Stealth, am I making an ass of myself here (not tried using the things yet) - are you saying that while u can ship the containers around, while you have them inside your ship you can't have anything actually inside the containers?
m0ovie links |
Saluretic
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Saluretic on 24/07/2003 23:41:57
ROFL!
made a pirate's life harder?
cry me a river
like sitting at a gate sniping passers-by and jumping through if the going gets tough isn't the least difficult and ingenious thing one could do...
though you're right, the concept of an indestructible tin can is pretty weak
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Macumba
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:42:00 -
[22]
Good thinking Batman. In all honesty I don't know. But judging by the ineptitude of traders we've seen so far they probably won't have the foresight to put them in a secure container.
There should be a way to bypass them. It's a no-brainer. The point I was making was that what may seem worthless or trivial to you might mean a hell of a lot to somebody else. Sure, a good 95% of people won't pay to have the goods returned, but that remaining 5% could be milked for all they're worth if the goods mean something to them.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.24 23:47:00 -
[23]
Good reply Macumba, I can see your point as well. Ack well, I've knocked off a couple of e-mails to a few people in CCP, will see what thier reply is.
So just to condense my point before I go to bed. My problem isn't with the idea of secure contianers (which I support even though its going to make one aspect of profiting through pirating harder), just that the option to destroy the container if all other options for opening/charging from collection is not avalible and in some cases can be used as an exploit. Sleep well all and as Ywev would say, Pod you Later
Rev
m0ovie links |
Amicus
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Posted - 2003.07.25 00:41:00 -
[24]
Speaking as a miner, these secure containers are not what we asked for.  We do not need a small container to cart things around with. We need a huge container (e.g., 15k m3) that we can store ore in at the job site, and when the job is done, empty it, fold it back up, and cart the container away. The container does not need to be impervious to attack. We just need to have the right to shoot, or similarly threaten, anyone that attacks the container without incurring the wrath of the police or a security hit.
The current containers are not a good solution to ore theivery, if that was their design. We have corporate security hangers now, so they are unnecessary for preventing hanger theft. Even though I usually side with the carebears in the pirate v. carebear disputes, the current containers do seem to be a bit of an overkill for limiting piracy.
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Thaddius Engle
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Posted - 2003.07.25 00:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Thaddius Engle on 25/07/2003 00:47:16
I haven't tried the secure containers yet, but I have a couple questions:
StealthNet stated that you can't put anything in them while they're in your cargo hold... is that true? If so, then much of the debate in this thread is kind of moot...
How long do secure containers last in space?
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Here's some thoughts on how I would implement a 'lockable' container...
* make them password protected
* add a new hacking skill which gives a decreasing chance of failure with level.
+ perhaps 2 skills, where the 2nd one can't be learned till the first is level 5 (like refining efficiency)?
+ let failure cause a -.05 hit or so to security or even better, have the sec hit dependent on the security level of the system you're attempting the hack (maybe -.05 in 1.0 sec, and no sec hit in 0.0 space).
* containers shouldn't be invulnerable, but let them still be fairly tough. Say, 1000 hp (would take a n00b ship with civvy guns a while but a heavy ship wouldn't have any trouble shredding it)
+ Also, since the container is "owned", we could also apply a security penalty for blowing one up that isn't yours... again, let that be dependent on the security level of the system you're in. (this might also help reduce the 'grief' play style in high sec areas where someone flys around in a n00b ship just blowing up cans without even attempting to rob them)
+ Or better yet, flag someone as hostile if they attack or try to hack your cargo for 5 or 10 minutes so you may, if you choose, attack them without penalty. :D
* Also, the penalties to attacking/hacking cargo should not be imposed if the cargo can is owned by a member of a corp you're at war with... after all, attrition is a major part of any war 
Anyways, just some thoughts... maybe good / maybe bad, but I don't think making them invulnerable is good in the gameplay sense.
Personally, I think lockable containers, if done well and integrated into the game with the right pros and cons could be very useful and a value add. |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.25 00:51:00 -
[26]
Well - you can scan them to see their contents, so some form of hacking skill to unlock them is a good gameplay mechanism, especially if coupled with a "selfdestruct on failure" and eventual a "scan-proof" can also.
You can have items in them inside your cargo - that bit of misinformation should be cleared up immediately... and thus their "780 contents in 650 cargo" (for the large) is also a ready cargo-expander system.
They do need to be more readily destroyable, i had supposed that all sizes were 1 million hit points - not that they scaled up.
The addition of some "backstory realism" in the form of , say, a limited-lifespan "VM-15" field would also benefit them (decompose after x days).
I'm not aware if they are permanent objects tbh - that could do with clearing up - (otherwise the cans will need to be)
Such cans are of great use to myself - nothing too do with mining though.
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eriq
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Posted - 2003.07.25 03:13:00 -
[27]
you're right, this is just a game and despite your childish attempts to recast my comments as something else it isn't piracy that bothers me, it's the mindset of some that everything in this game is to be manipulated for the express purpose of screwing someone else.
geez
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Shollos
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Posted - 2003.07.25 03:34:00 -
[28]
ccp has struck another blow for carebears everywhere..
CAREBEARS UNITE!!
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Ivanav Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.07.25 04:19:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ivanav Soulsteal on 25/07/2003 04:21:37
ok.. ppl think back to the days of the early west (usa) where the trains were constanly being held up by train robbers.
The solution, they started putting everything in safes.
Now, if the robbers did manage to get the safe out of the train, they could not just open it.
The more daft robbers tried TNT which usally resulted in the destruction of the contents of the safe.
The best way to rob the trains was to open the safe buy stealing/buying or safe*****ing the combinations.
The current secure containers are modern day versions of these safes.
Those that want to be able to destroy them I say go for it, let all the contents be destroyed just like any container that is shot.
For the rest of you, well you just stole a wells fargo safe best start looking for a combination or a good locksmith. 
I'm sure the first train robbers that ran across the safes in on the trains were as put out as you ppl are.
This reminds me of a movie I saw. The train robbers stole the safe out of the train in the beginning of the movie.
The next 2 hours were them bungling there way tring to open it getting in all kinds of funny situations.
In the end they finly open the safe to find.....
A bill from the safe make to the train company for the safe.
OH.. as to their lifetime.. The one in cri has been out 3 days.
And so it begins.... |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.25 04:48:00 -
[30]
 Quote:
For the rest of you, well you just stole a wells fargo safe best start looking for a combination or a good locksmith
Not valid, I'm afraid. There is no current way to ***** the safe.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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